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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Saturday, July 13, 2002CatchersHere are the catchers, I’ve updated this thread 9/19/2003. I’m going to remove anyone who isn’t a new eligible, or hasn’t received a vote from these threads; unless he has 175 WS (145 for the catchers), so these threads don’t get too cluttered.
156 - 28, 26, 24 - 114 - Fred Carroll - 5.9 sea. - 128 batting- 28 fielding. 145 - 35, 28, 25 - 129 - John Clapp - 9.0 sea. - 108 batting - 37 fielding. 183 - 22, 22, 22 - 86 - Jack Clements - 8.9 sea. - 126 batting - 57 fielding. 327 - 32, 30, 28 - 132 - Buck Ewing - 11.0 sea. - 247 batting - 77 fielding - 3 pitching. 210 - 28, 20, 17 - 96 - Duke Farrell - 11.1 sea. - 132 batting - 78 fielding. 158 - 26, 17, 16 - 92 - Doggie Miller - 9.8 sea. - 118 batting - 39 fielding. 332 - 42, 34, 32 - 145 - Deacon White - 18.1 sea. - 261 batting - 69 fielding - 1 pitching. 178 - 21, 19, 16 - 78 - Chief Zimmer - 9.3 sea. - 99 batting - 79 fielding. JoeD has the Imperial March Stuck in His Head
Posted: July 13, 2002 at 04:03 AM | 148 comment(s)
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I did a batting win shares analysis, primarily because:
1. We generally elect the hitters, sorted by position;
2. I haven't seen too much criticism of BWS, while WARP and fielding/pitching WS receive plenty of it;
3. BWS is easily accessible.
4. With the low replacement value, I don't have to worry about negative numbers altering the career totals.
This rudimentary study uses the Win Shares Digital Update and games data from baseballreference.com.
For batting WS, I merely took the career value for all players over 100 career batting WS (70 for catchers), and calculated
career Batting WS/162. I did not adjust for short-seasons, because I think our electorate does show a slight timeline bias,
and this bias can be reflected here. I have not taken league quality into account in the lists, but rather in the notes that
follow. I have also excluded anyone with significant NA or pre-NA time, because the databases used do not include pre-1876
information. Where we have total games and MLE batting WS, I have used them for our Negro League candidates.
I also give WS fielding grades, to show some outliers.
The results show high concentrations at the top of each position, as would be expected. All people who deviate from the tops
of the lists have significant fielding value. To give some semblance of order, I have added together the WS/162 as a
representative measure of prime, plus the career WS divided by 10. I used that number rather than Bill James' harmonic mean
formula because I think that formula penalized long-career players a bit too much. I also did not add 3 year peaks and 5
year consecutive peaks because that seemed to double and triple-count high peak players, thus further skewing the lists in
that direction. Our electorate is prime-friendly, not peak-friendly. Using either of the harmonic mean or peak measures
would have given totals that do not reflect the values of the electorate as a whole.
As a preliminary conclusion, we have elected the following fielders, who would not be in the HOM had they not had a stellar
fielding reputation and some actual numbers to show that they were great fielders:
C - Charlie Bennett
1B - none
2B - Bid McPhee
3B - Jimmy Collins
SS - Hugh Jennings, Bobby Wallace, Jack Glasscock
LF - none
CF - Earl Averill, Max Carey
RF - none
Monte Ward also would not have made the HOM on his hitting alone, but he had substantial pitching value to go along with his
solid hitting and good fielding rep. One can argue that Jimmy Sheckard may fit this category, but he has a decent amount of
hitting value.
Only one hitter has made the HOM despite not being near the top of the hitters at his position and is a relatively poor
fielder for the position - Sam Thompson.
But now to the data.
So here are the eligible catchers through 1980.
Josh's MLE's show that he is miles ahead of everyone else. The big five (Berra, Dickey, Ewing, Cochrane, Hartnett) were not only the best hitting catchers of all time, but were also great fielders. Campy probably belongs with them when Negro League credit is given. You have to get down to electee Bennett to see another A fielder, which shows in part how Bennett made it.
Bresnahan and Schang still head the top of the list by 1980, with Lombardi a good measure behind. Fred Carroll has AA issues, and Mackey's MLE numbers put him below the elite. Mike Grady is something of a surprise. I don't have BWS for
Quincy Trouppe, but I think he would be somewhere in the Schang-Mackey range range.
McVey, despite only 4 seasons of data (or maybe because of it) does surprisingly well. His hitting rate probably increases with his NA play.
Upcoming eligibles other than Berra (Haller, Howard, Romano, Cooper, Lollar, Burgess) will have a difficult time. Howard has the best shot, especially with his stellar fielding. Anyone below Bennett is officially out of the running.
So here are the eligible catchers through 1980.
Josh's MLE's show that he is miles ahead of everyone else. The big five (Berra, Dickey, Ewing, Cochrane, Hartnett) were not only the best hitting catchers of all time, but were also great fielders. Campy probably belongs with them when Negro League credit is given. You have to get down to electee Bennett to see another A fielder, which shows in part how Bennett made it.
Bresnahan and Schang still head the top of the list by 1980, with Lombardi a good measure behind. Fred Carroll has AA issues, and Mackey's MLE numbers put him below the elite. Mike Grady is something of a surprise. I don't have BWS for Quincy Trouppe, but I think he would be somewhere in the Schang-Mackey range range.
McVey, despite only 4 seasons of data (or maybe because of it) does surprisingly well. His hitting rate probably increases with his NA play.
Upcoming eligibles other than Berra (Haller, Howard, Romano, Cooper, Lollar, Burgess) will have a difficult time. Howard has the best shot, especially with his stellar fielding. Anyone below Bennett is officially out of the running.
The man has the peak, the prime, the long career, the MVPs, the All-Star selections, the pennant-winners, and even a championship. What more do you need from Campy when comparing him to the other eligible candidates?
I agree that he shouldn't be given credit all the way back. I don't think he hit enough in his teens to be a big-league player.
On the other hand, he's way better than Lombardi, Schang, and the second-tier-catcher gang. He's an easy #1 in that he's among the best five or six players ever at his position. No other candidate that will be available in 1963, newbie or backlog, can come within 100 miles of substantiating a claim like that.... That's why they're all backloggers in the first place!
As for including his teenage years, I don't disagree. However, he doesn't need them.
His career length? Definitely long for a catcher.
I'll repeat that a vote less than the top spot for '63 is indefensible.
Marc, in my original post, I gave a caveat for peak voters as yourself.
Roy Campanella - 24
Roger Bresnahan - 23
Ernie Lombardi - 21
Chief Zimmer - 21
Wally Schang - 20
Chief Meyers - 17
Ray Schalk - 16
Johnny Kling - 14
I'm not familiar with this stat. Is this Wins over "Replacement Level"? Seems too low, though. Is it Wins over Average? Something else? Thanks.
You haven't convinced me he's #1 and you won't, but I think on reflection he's above Rixey and Charley Jones. Above him Beckley we've talked about, Welch is one of the top 4 pitchers of the 1880s and we have too few pitchers, Sisler had a better peak and lasted longer, Cicotte gets 25% Landis credit from me for the 300 games he should have won (had he not been traded from the Red Sox in 1912...) Browning has a better peak, but OK, ahead of Browning. Sisler and Cicotte are FAVES, however, so they're not moving.
As I said, I think the Boys of Summer have been overrated by history. The 1912-18 Red Sox won four times as many championships, yet have no HOM caps at all to show for it.
Then there's Lajoie 95 Hornsby 86 E. Collins 73. All the old defensive evaluations that Bill James has spent his life trying to refute.
1. Doerr 40
2. Bancroft 36
Bob Johnson 36
4. Sewell 35
5. J. Robinson 34
6. Childs 30
7. Gordon 29
8. Bartell 28
Browning 28
Dunlap 28
11. Fletcher 27
Sisler 27
13. Clift 26
Medwick 26
The defensive formulas underwent a rather large revision. It MAY still "overvalue" defense at 2B, and even SS, but, for example, Johnny Bench is no longer below average defensively, but quite a bit above average.
My system takes into account career win shares, peak (3 consecutive seasons), prime (7 best seasons), and per season (648 PA). I weight prime the heaviest, then peak, then seasonal, then career. There are small bonuses for being an all-star - either by wins shares or STATS. I add the appearences on each list and divide by 2. Catchers get a bonus as well that decreases as we get closer to the present. All this is added up and compared to my theoretical maximum. The max is simply the highest score any player achieved for each part. It is basically Babe Ruth. I am rather liberal with War / NeL / blackballing / minor league credit.
Anyway, the comparison has been pretty consistent in predicting HoMers over the years. If a player is over 60% of the max, they get in. If they are under 60% and in, they were a great fielder or a 40s infielder.
Here is my catcher list (through retired players):
* means HoMer
Louis Santop is not done b/c I never saw any translations. Since this is all done by hand, I didn't do the numbers for a player if I thought they had no chance to get in.
Which is wrong, of course. ;-)
Campy fares pretty well compared to Cochrane, Hartnett and Dickey, three guys that flew into the HOM with minimal resistance. He doesn't fare too badly against Berra, either. We have to wait until 1989 (Bench) to find another challenger? Doesn't sound like a deluge of great-hitting catcher candidates to me. The only thing Campy doesn't have in his MLB-only numbers is career length -- and his NeL years fix that.
As I said, I think the Boys of Summer have been overrated by history. The 1912-18 Red Sox won four times as many championships, yet have no HOM caps at all to show for it.
I agree the Boys of Summer have been way overexposed. Bookstores are flooded with books on this team. You'd think they'd have won a lot more than they actually did. But, they still dominated the NL for ten years after integration -- at time when the NL was a bit stronger than the AL due to quicker integration, too. The Yankees just had their number for many years.
Speaker & Ruth are in the HOM, so the 1910s Sox are represented. If I recall correctly, only a couple of players were on all four teams which means that the RedSox GM/Owner at the time should probably be inducted to the executives wing (unless selling Ruth negates all of that genius).
My hard-drive was salvaged, so my fractional-cap list was saved. The Red Sox do gain about another cap and a half this way due to partial credit from guys like Speaker, Cronin and Young. Ironically, its the Dodgers than fare the best relative to the winner-take-all system due to guys like Caruthers, Sheckard, Kelley and Keeler. I just finished the list and will probably post the results next week sometime.
It's just a knee jerk reaction on my part, David. :-) The misconception that he was primarily a third baseman is probably the item that has closed the door on him for the HOF for all of these years.
He doesn't fare too badly against Berra, either.
Berra alo played 12% of his career in the OF, while Campy was all-catcher all of the time.
The reason Campy ranks so high as of 1963 is because there have as of 1963 been very few great catchers.
Actually, there were probably about the same amount, but it was much tougher to play the position as you go back in time. Do you think Fisk would have had the same amount of games played seventy years ago and with the same quality? Let's not even talk about a hundred years ago or earlier.
Context, context, context. :-)
1876: Catcher
1877: 1st
1878: Catcher
1879: Catcher
1880: Outfield
1881: 1st / 2nd
1882: 3rd
1883: 3rd
1884: 3rd
1885: 3rd
1886: 3rd
1887: 3rd
1888: 3rd
1889: 3rd
1890: 3rd / 1st
Including the NA years, he did have 8 years as a catcher and 8 as a 3rd baseman.
But he would never have made it into the HoM strictly based on his 3B credentials, while he most likely would have based on his backstop duties anyway.
Win Shares
16. Bresnahan 231/29-27-27/116/25.9
22. Lombardi 218/24-18-17/89/19.1
33. W. Cooper 173/23-19-18/82/19.0
Advantage Bresnahan especially based on peak though his 3 years in the OF helps close the gap.
Seasonal (10+, with adjustments*)
Bresnahan 29*#-29-27-23#-19-18-14-14-13# (# not a catcher)
Lombardi 24-19-17-17-17-16*-16-14-13-12-11
W. Cooper 23-19-17-16*-16*-16-15*-10
Slight advantage Bresnahan
OPS+ in ?100 games
Bresnahan 161-39-38-36-32-28-25-16-x-x
Cooper 145-41-32-31*-22-15-15*-13-97-80
Lombardi 162-54-48-45-37-32-31-26*-20-11-7-2-96-93 (4 extra years versus Bresnahan, 2 versus Cooper)
Advantage Lombardi, but slight
WS: Bresnahan C+, Cooper C, Lombardi D+--slight advantage Cooper
Lombardi 6,285 PAs, Bresnahan about 5,200, Cooper, about 5,000 PAs. Advantage Cooper.
The final cut:
1. Bresnahan though 3 yrs in the OF closes the gap somewhat.
2. Lombardi even after discounting his war years
3. Cooper
So far I have Trouppe ahead of the pack, and Mackey between Bresnahan and Lombardi Ineed to refresh on that.
Win Shares
Mackey 278/26-23-20/104/?
16. Bresnahan 231/29-27-27/116/25.9
22. Lombardi 218/24-18-17/89/19.1
33. W. Cooper 173/23-19-18/82/19.0
Trouppe 268/31-27-26/113/?
Now it appears to be advantage Trouppe.
Seasonal (10+, with adjustments*)
Bresnahan 29*#-29-27-23#-19-18-14-14-13# (# not a catcher)
Lombardi 24-19-17-17-17-16*-16-14-13-12-11
W. Cooper 23-19-17-16*-16*-16-15*-10
Mackey 26-23-20-19-19-19-18-18-18-17-17-15-10
Trouppe 31-27-26-26-24-22-21-18-17-12-12-10
OPS+ in ?100 games
Bresnahan 161-39-38-36-32-28-25-16 (8 years > 100 and 100 G)
Cooper 145-41-32-31*-22-15-15*-13-97-80 (10 years)
Lombardi 162-54-48-45-37-32-31-26*-20-11-7-2-96-93 (14 years)
Mackey 142-31-22-11-10-10-9-8-7-4-1 (11 years)
Trouppe 153-45-45-41-35-33-28-14 (7 years)
Advantage Lombardi but very slightly over everybody.
WS: Bresnahan C+, Cooper C, Lombardi D+--slight advantage Cooper
Lombardi 6,285 PAs, Bresnahan about 5,200, Cooper, about 5,000 PAs. Mackey 9,000 PAs, Trouppe 7,200
The final cut:
Peak—1. Trouppe, 2. Bresnahan, 3. Mackey, 4.Lombardi, 5. Cooper
Career—1, Mackey, 2. Trouppe, 3. Bresnahan, 4. Lombardi, 5. Cooper
Overall I would vote Trouppe, Brenahan, Mackey, Lombardi, Cooper.
If you use .600 Win%, for example, Bresnahan should come out well ahead in "peak" performance.
I would rank the catchers the same as sunnyday except I would be putting Wally Schang ahead of Walker Cooper. Funny thing is though I would only support Trouppe and Bresnahan for the HOM, and Bresnahan I am lukewarm toward. Catcher is a very funny position, candidates either seem to be obviously HOMers or deep backloggers. Mackey may be the only C we elect since I started (1935) that didn't go in on the first ballot (Hartnett, Cochrane, Dickey, Berra, Campanella, Gibson) and that probably has a lot to do with his being an NeL player, thus having a sketchy record. Of course this is assuming he goes in.
Are there any others? Torre? Simmons? Freehan? Maybe even a guy like Elston Howard (does he deserve NeL or MiL credit?) Even thinking of active players there are two worthy guys and that seems to be about it as I don't think that Varitek or Posada will have the career length to make it.
Do you know your catcher workload statistic in New Eligibles #14-19?
Is it derived from games played by team leaders in catcher games?
That's a long time ago, Paul. I have revamped my system countless times since then.
But what I was doing back then with catchers (and still do) is compare each candidate against his peers on a career and season basis. Nothing real fancy or elaborate. I stated in one of my posts that I used an "eyeball approach" and I still do.
FSeasEq - career games played at catcher, full seasons equivalent
Single-season FSeasEq (not shown) for a player-team-year-position is player fielding games at the position divided by team games played, such as 1.00 for a player who fields the position in every team game. Given at least one in-game substitution or switch during the season, the sum of FSeasEq for any team-year-position is greater than 1.00.
Career FSeasEq is the career sum of single-season FSeasEq.
Here is the top 25 among all catchers who played that position in the majors no later than 1923.
Cfinale FSeasEq name
1912 11.67 Deacon McGuire
1891 10.78 Pop Snyder
1902 9.72 Wilbert Robinson
1903 8.96 Chief Zimmer
1893 8.61 Charlie Bennett
1889 8.57 Silver Flint
1906 8.40 Malachi Kittridge
1900 8.14 Jack Clements
1916 7.84 Red Dooin
1913 7.73 Johnny Kling
1918 7.70 George Gibson
1884 7.42 Deacon White (est. 8.85 from 1868)
1916 7.39 Billy Sullivan
1883 7.27 John Clapp
1905 7.19 Duke Farrell
1908 7.06 John Warner
1921 6.68 Bill Killefer
1913 6.66 Heinie Peitz
1912 6.61 Lou Criger
1915 6.37 Roger Bresnahan
1920 6.24 Bill Rariden
1911 6.23 Bill Bergen
1890 6.16 Doc Bushong
1910 6.09 Jack O'Connor
1883 5.93 Doug Allison (est. 8.23 from 1868)
"Estimates from 1868" based on the following notes using data from Marshall Wright's 1857-1870 book.
James White and Doug Allison were professional players in Cleveland and Cincinnati from 1868. I estimate these FSeasEq for them as catchers with those two teams 1868-1870.
1868 1869 1870
0.10 0.50 0.83 White (sum 1.43 ==> 1868-1884 career estimate 8.85
0.63 0.93 0.74 Allison (sum 2.30 ==> 1868-1883 career estimate 8.23
This may not cover all of Allison's pro career. On the other hand, no other catcher listed above is credited with any play outside the major leagues.
--
from Marshall Wright data
For 1868,
White "SS,C" with 23 games played (23 team games); teammate Eb Smith "C,SS" with 21 games played
Allison "C" with 27 games played (43 team games); "C" does not appear in the fielding position of any other player listed (ten with 22+ games). The SABR Biography by Rich Puff says Allison was "summoned to Cincinnati" from the East in August 1868.
For 1869,
White "C" 8 games; 25 team games, maximum 16 for any player (some box scores missing); John Ward "OF,2B,C" 13 games; the entire record is consistent with lineup data for 16 games only
Allison "C" 53 games; 57 team games, maximum 57 for any player;
For 1870,
White "C,P" 36 games; 41 team games, maximum 37 for any player; no "C" in fieldpos of other players
Allison "C" 55 games; 74 team games, maximum 74 for any player; tenth man Dean "OF,C" 33 games
Cfinale - final major league appearance as a catcher
FSeasEq - career games played at catcher, full seasons equivalent
finale FullSeasE name
1947 12.41 Al Lopez
1947 11.74 Rick Ferrell
1912 11.67 Deacon McGuire (11 mlb games, 3 as catcher, after 1906)
1941 11.62 Gabby Hartnett
1929 11.40 Ray Schalk
1946 11.07 Bill Dickey
1891 10.78 Pop Snyder
1942 10.18 Luke Sewell
1928 10.11 Steve O'Neill
1947 10.03 Ernie Lombardi
1902 9.724 Wilbert Robinson
1947 9.596 Rollie Hemsley
1937 9.489 Mickey Cochrane
1931 9.470 Wally Schang
1934 9.195 Muddy Ruel
1903 8.961 Chief Zimmer (Deacon White ~8.85 including Cle 1868-70)
1945 8.792 Gus Mancuso
1940 8.786 Jimmie Wilson
1935 8.764 Bob O'Farrell
1893 8.614 Charlie Bennett
1889 8.579 Silver Flint
1947 8.556 Frankie Hayes
1906 8.406 Malachi Kittridge
1945 8.319 Spud Davis (Doug Allison ~8.23 including Cin 1868-70)
1927 8.173 Frank Snyder
The top 25 now includes no one with mlb catcher finale between 1912 and 1927, and Deacon McGuire (1912) essentially retired as a player after 1906. (Thereafter a field manager and coach, he appeared in three games as a catcher.)
finale FullSeasE name
1965 10.99 Yogi Berra
1960 10.49 Jim Hegan
1963 10.08 Sherm Lollar
1966 9.43 Del Crandall
Oldtimers Charlie Bennett and Silver Flint now complete the top 25 or fall just outside it depending on pre-major league credit for Deacon White and Roy Campanella.
Posted 2:19 a.m., July 13, 2002 - Bill Barnwell (e-mail)
If John Clapp is somehow related to Stubby Clapp, he's in.
As for Deacon White - he only got 39% of his WS at catcher. If he played those 5 years in the NA at catcher, I would be more apt to further him, but I'm not sure if they were.
The only guys who I would throw my support behind would be Buck Ewing and maybe Jack Clements.
Posted 2:45 a.m., July 13, 2002 - John Murphy
What is Kid Baldwin doing on this list?
Here are the Win Shares per 162 games for the catchers (NA not included as of yet):
Kid Baldwin: 3:09
Charlie Bennett: 23.95
Lew Brown: 21.43
Fred Carroll: 26.43
John Clapp: 24.40
Jack Clements: 20.44
Buck Ewing: 29.69
Jim Keenan: 18.59
Doggie Miller: 16.61
Jocko Milligan: 22.65
Jack O'Brien: 24.81
Deacon White: 23.78
Ed Whiting: 23.40
Posted 3:04 a.m., July 13, 2002 - John Murphy
Deacon White and Buck Ewing are definite HoMers. Charlie Bennett and Jack Clements are the only others picks that I would take a look at (possibly Clapp).
Posted 12:03 p.m., July 13, 2002 - John Murphy
Oops!
Kid Baldwin's Win Shares per 162 games: 14.33
That's what I get when I do calculations at two in the morning!
Posted 8:27 p.m., July 14, 2002 - John Murphy
128 - 26, 22, 19 - 90 - Silver Flint - 8.8 sea. - 66 batting - 61 fielding.
C 90%, RF 7%, 1B 1%, 3B 1%, LF 1%.
notes: 1875;1878-88. 5-year peak from age 23-27. Played entire career in NL (except for 1875).
Win Shares per 162 games: 15.92
83 - 22, 15, 12 - 52 - Doc Bushong - 6.2 sea. - 83 batting - 30 fielding.
C 99%, 3B 1%.
notes: 1875-76;1880-90. 5-year peak from age 26-30. Played in NL 1876, 1880-1884, 1890; 1885-90 in AA; 1875 in NA (except for 1875).
Win Shares per 162 games: 13.50
Posted 11:39 p.m., July 14, 2002 - scruff (e-mail)
Bill -- that doesn't mean Deacon only picked up 39% of his WS as catcher. It means he played 39% of his career as a catcher.
WS are position ignorant. What I mean is that 332 WS means the same thing whether you are a LF or a C. Catchers get a higher percentage of their WS from fielding than LF's generally, but once the final number is in, position has already been accounted for.
Deacon also did most of his catching in the NA, 4.3 of his 5.0 seasons in the NA were as a catcher. He caught the equivalent of about 7.0 seasons in his career.
Posted 8:47 a.m., July 15, 2002 - MattB
Deacon White also has the first hit in major league history: a double on opening day, May 4, 1871 off of Ft. Wayne's Bobby Mathews in the top of the first inning. He was subsequently doubled up on a line drive to second, so did not score.
Posted 11:09 p.m., July 15, 2002 - DanG (e-mail)
Catchers have short careers (duh!) I only turned up one other long-career catcher whom we might consider for our first ballot:
Jack Boyle 1886-98
DG
Posted 11:28 a.m., July 16, 2002 - John Murphy
92 - 17, 13, 11 - 56 - Jack Boyle - 7.9 sea. - 53 batting - 39 fielding.
C 48%, 1B 42%, 3B 5%, SS 4%, RF 1%, 2B 1%, LF 1%.
notes: 1886-98. 5-year peak from age 24-28. Played in AA 1886-1889,1891; NL 1892-1898; PL 1890.
Win Shares per 162 games played: 11.78
- 39, 38, 29 - 132 - Cal McVey - 8.5 sea. - 97 batting - 12 fielding.
C 38%, 1B 27%, 3B 15%, RF 13%, CF 5%, 2B 1%, LF 1%, SS 1%.
notes: 1871-1879. He can't be properly evaluated because of lack of NA prorations (not to mention his pre-NA career) Played in NA for it's entire existence; NL 1876-1879.
Win Shares per 162 games played: 33.01
Scruff missed this one on the spreadsheet. Since he's doing a hundred different things for the HoM, I think Cal won't be too tough on him. :-)
One of the "Big Four", I think he definitely goes in. He accumulated 132 prorated WS after the age of 35. At this time, I don't know who was better: White, McVey or Ewing.
Posted 6:37 p.m., July 21, 2002 - John Murphy
Er, I screwed up on McVey. He was only 28 when he retired from the majors. I still think he has a good case on peak, but he still sits behind White and Ewing.
Posted 8:50 p.m., July 21, 2002 - Marc
White and McVey are an interesting pair. McVey was clearly better (a little better, but clearly) than White in the NA years even though McVey was just 20 in 1871 while White was 24. By 1879 White (already 31) had a better year and McVey (just 28) called it quits. Whether he was slipping (the numbers don't show much of a decline) or just decided to live a normal life, I don't know. But then White went on to another productive decade of play, thereby (I think) overtaking Cal. Not unlike Fisk and Munson IMO.
As a clarifiction it was White not McVey who got the 132 WS after 35.
Posted 4:47 p.m., July 22, 2002 - scruff (e-mail)
Sorry Cal :-)
Posted 4:12 p.m., July 24, 2002 - DanG (e-mail)
I turned up one more very-long-career catcher who also does well in TPR:
Pop Snyder 1873-91
He's probably worth a closer look.
DG
Posted 2:23 a.m., July 25, 2002 - John Murphy
I'll have it done in a few days, Dan (same with those extra rightfielders). Snyder was a damn good player and deserves to be on the list.
Posted 2:00 p.m., July 26, 2002 - John Murphy
155 - 27, 23, 18 - 90 - Pop Snyder - 11.2 sea. - 62 batting - 93 fielding.
C 94%, 1B 3%, CF 1%, RF 1%.
notes: 1873-1891 (except 1880). 5-year peak from age 24-29. Played in NA 1873-1875: NL 1876-1881,1889; AA 1882-1888, 1891; PL 1890.
Win Shares per 162 games played: 15.32
Posted 3:12 a.m., July 27, 2002 - John Murphy
CORRECTION
Pop Snyder
Win Shares per 162 games played: 17.89
Posted 2:42 a.m., August 7, 2002 - good_ol_gil
Ed Whiting is still alive!?
Posted 1:18 p.m., August 7, 2002 - Brian Hodes
Not possible -- he would be about 142 years old (and we would know about it). To live that long he would have to be from Georgia (near Russia not Florida) or mentioned in the "begats" section of Genesis.
Posted 8:21 p.m., September 12, 2002 - TomH (e-mail)
Ewing, thought of for many years as the best 19th cent player, is the class of catchers that I see. White's stats were in a weaker league. Ewing's WS per game are superb, and he was a utility man par excellants as they say. Bennett with his fine OWP of .570ish in the NL would be 2nd, followed by White and then Clements, another good hitting backstop with a streak of fine years in the early 1890s.
TomH
I think Buck Ewing was a better player than White (if we don't include the NA numbers). With the NA numbers, it's damn close. At this time, I can't say who the winner is (looking forward to your numbers, Joe). It's probably a photo finish.
That they are both definite HoMers is one big duh!
Posted 12:11 p.m., September 29, 2002 - John Murphy
Update on the top five catchers (in order):
Buck Ewing
Deacon White (could be number one when we factor in the NA)
Charlie Bennett
Jack Clements
John Clapp
Honorable Mention: Fred Carroll (numbers are better than Clapp's post NA work)
Posted 10:33 a.m., October 18, 2002 - DanG
I was taking a look at the leaders in games caught for the 19th century, and thought others might be interested.
I'm fairly sure that Deacon White was the first man to catch 400 games, reaching that mark in 1879. He caught very little after that year.
Pop Snyder was right behind White and soon passed him. Snyder reached 800 games caught in 1888 and ended his career in 1891 as the all-time leader with 877.
The year after Snyder retired, Charlie Bennett passed him up. Bennett retired after 1893 with 954 games caught.
The top 16 in games at catcher, through 1892, with year retired:
894 C. Bennett '93
877 P. Snyder '91
743 S. Flint '89
668 D. Bushong '90
646 J. Clements '00
635 B. Ewing '97
566 K. Kelly '93
542 J. Milligan '93
538 B. Holbert '88
534 W. Robinson '02
516 C. Zimmer '03
486 C. Mack '96
472 J. Clapp '83
461 D. Miller '96
459 B. Gilligan '88
458 D. White '90
By 1900, four catchers had reached the 1000 mark.
The top 18 in games at catcher, through 1900, with year retired:
1171 D. McGuire '08
1162 W. Robinson '02
1095 C. Zimmer '03
1073 J. Clements '00
954 C. Bennett '93
877 P. Snyder '91
815 D. Farrell '05
743 S. Flint '89
739 M. Kittridge '06
668 D. Bushong '90
636 B. Ewing '97
636 D. Miller '96
630 P. Schriver '01
609 C. Mack '96
605 J. O'Connor '07
595 H. Peitz '06
585 J. Milligan '93
583 K. Kelly '93
DG
Posted 1:01 p.m., November 19, 2002 - Carl Goetz (e-mail)
Here's my list:
Buck Ewing
Deacon White
Charlie Bennett
John Clapp
Fred Carroll
Jack Clements
Pop Snyder
Jack O'Brien
Silver Flint
Doggie Miller
Ewing will likely be the only 1 in this group that makes my 1906 ballot. I think White and maybe Bennett will eventually get in(or at least crack into my ballot), but I don't think the rest are HoM material.
Posted 1:02 p.m., November 19, 2002 - Carl Goetz (e-mail)
Here's my list:
Buck Ewing
Deacon White
Charlie Bennett
John Clapp
Fred Carroll
Jack Clements
Pop Snyder
Jack O'Brien
Silver Flint
Doggie Miller
Ewing will likely be the only 1 in this group that makes my 1906 ballot. I think White and maybe Bennett will eventually get in(or at least crack into my ballot), but I don't think the rest are HoM material.
Posted 1:03 p.m., November 19, 2002 - Carl Goetz (e-mail)
Here's my list:
Buck Ewing
Deacon White
Charlie Bennett
John Clapp
Fred Carroll
Jack Clements
Pop Snyder
Jack O'Brien
Silver Flint
Doggie Miller
Ewing will likely be the only 1 in this group that makes my 1906 ballot. I think White and maybe Bennett will eventually get in(or at least crack into my ballot), but I don't think the rest are HoM material.
Here's my list:
Buck Ewing
Deacon White
Charlie Bennett
John Clapp
Fred Carroll
Jack Clements
Pop Snyder
Jack O'Brien
Silver Flint
Doggie Miller
Ewing will likely be the only 1 in this group that makes my 1906 ballot. I think White and maybe Bennett will eventually get in(or at least crack into my ballot), but I don't think the rest are HoM material.
Posted 1:06 p.m., November 19, 2002 - Carl Goetz (e-mail)
Here's my list:
Buck Ewing
Deacon White
Charlie Bennett
John Clapp
Fred Carroll
Jack Clements
Pop Snyder
Jack O'Brien
Silver Flint
Doggie Miller
Ewing will likely be the only 1 in this group that makes my 1906 ballot. I think White and maybe Bennett will eventually get in(or at least crack into my ballot), but I don't think the rest are HoM material.
Posted 1:10 p.m., November 19, 2002 - Carl Goetz
Sorry,
I had some computer problems. Can an administator or somebody erase a few of those extra posts?
Sorry,
I had some computer problems. Can an administator or somebody erase a few of those extra posts?
heh
By the way, I hope to see full seasons (my FSeasEq #132-133 or a competitor) replace games played as a career measure of playing time. But I suspect that an old-fashioned webpage is a better medium and I'm not sure when I'll work on that.
The print Win Shares misnames him as Jeff Sweeney. He had 47 career win shares, with a high of 12 in 1913.
I think discussion should definitely be done on these candidates, DanG. No time like the present to at least set this up. I'd add Clarence Williams, Chief Zimmer, Chief Meyers, John Clapp, Jack Clements and Johnny Kling as discussion candidates. Any other catcher candidates that should be discussed?
For people who recieved votes in 2008, I'm also including the comments from their "best friend"(s). Here are the catchers:
Elston Howard (31st, 118 points, 12 votes)
1955*-1968, 1605 games played, .274/.322/.427, OPS+ 108, 203 WS, 61.4 WARP1
(*Possible Negro League/military service credit)
Mark Danielson - 5: The various extenuating circumstances of his career can’t hide the great (if short) peak. I still prefer him slightly to Bresnahan, though I admit there’s a certain amount of “what if?” going on there.
Wally Schang(41st, 80 points, 5 votes)
1913-1931, 1842 games played, .284/.393/.401, OPS+ 117, 245 WS, 80.3 WARP1
Eric C - 2: Correcting for the 154-game schedule and the WWI-shortened seasons, has as much career value as Freehan in as many games, at least by Win Shares. Schang's lesser season-by-season totals is because in-season catcher usage was lower during his time than afterwards. The Bresnahan argument applies to Schang, too. Career leader in WS among major league catchers when he retired. A case where WARP is not as flattering as WS, perhaps accounting for Schang's lack of support.
Ernie Lombardi (50th, 55 points, 4 votes)
1931-1947, 1853 games played, .306/.358/.460, OPS+ 125, 218 WS, 65.6 WARP1
karlmagnus - 3: Up a bit more; we’re forgetting him. Berra closely comparable Berra. 2137 hits, normalized to a 130 game season, and an OPS+ of 125 makes him a little better than Schang, but some of it was during the war years and he fielded badly. TB+BB/PA .492, TB+BB/Outs .719., the ratio between the two very low because of strikeouts, I assume. Plus a great nickname!
Lance Parrish (59th, 46 points, 4 votes)
1977-1995, 1988 games played, .252/.313/.440, OPS+ 106, 248 WS, 79.7 WARP1
Dr. Chaleeko - 5: Let me take a minute here to explain, since I think everyone’s going to jump my ship for this. As explained in his thread, Parrish’s two big knocks are his lack of walks and his fielding. But neither ubersystem sees Parrish as having problematic fielding—to the contrary, they LIKE his glove. We have evidence of his defensive goodness which has been largely ignored in the discussions so far: Parrish hung on for a good while as a regular and semi-regular despite a decline in his hitting—he could not have done so had his defense been as weak as has been said. Which leaves the walks. Well, catchers who play D and hit 300+ homers are still pretty rare, even in today’s HR-happy times. I won’t tell you the lack of walks is illusory, but I will say that Parrish built a lot of value despite the lack of walks, and that value is what I’m looking at. Parrish’s case begins and ends with positional dominance and career length. He was the best catcher of the AL for several years. Even after, he remained a productive regular for several seasons and a good backup even after that. He’s almost as high in my rankings at catcher as Whitaker is in my rankings of 2Bs. Not quite but almost. He’s right below Freehand and Torre. However, he’s more impressive than the guys below him at catcher, where Whitaker’s got plenty of guys breathing down his neck. I think both are HOMers, but their relative rankings are not cast in stone, and I’ll continue to monitor how I feel about it.
Thurman Munson (68th (tie), 36 points, 3 votes)
1969-1979, 1423 games played, .292/.346/.410, OPS+ 116, 206 WS, 73.2 WARP1
Got Melky? - 5: I'm sold that he was very similar to Freehan. Thurm is starting to get the support he deserves.
Brian Downing (84th, 16 points, 1 vote)
1973-1992, 2344 games played, .267/.370/.425, OPS+ 122, 298 WS, 82.3 WARP1
(Played more at DH and LF than C, but the catcher list can use some filling out)
EricC - 5: This is a vote that will raise eyebrows, I'm sure. I have double-checked the numbers, and did not find any errors or compelling reasons to change my methodology, although the subjective strangeness of the outcome makes me question most (1) whether the career value portion of DH-era players ratings should be docked because careers tended to be longer (2) whether being among the best DH in a season is worth as many peak points as I'm giving. He ends up so high from a combination of every quirk in my system breaking in his favor: catcher "bonus" for the catcher years, treatment of DH as a position in itself, population-based timelining, and consideration of league strength/affect of DH in a league.
Gene Tenace Gene Tenace (92nd (tie), 10 points, 1 vote)
1969-1983, 1555 games played, .241/.388/.429, OPS+ 136, 231 WS, 77.5 WARP1
KJOK - 11: 26 POW, 231 Win Shares, 73 WARP1, 244 RCAP & .670 OWP in 5,525 PA’s. Def: FAIR. Highly underrated. Catchers who could hit are historically rare.
Darrell Porter (Devin's consideration set)
1971-1987, 1782 games played, .247/.354/.409, OPS+ 113, 248 WS, 76.2 WARP1
Bob Boone (NHBA selection)
1972-1990, 2264 games played, .254/.315/.346, OPS+ 82, 210 WS, 67.4 WARP1
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