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Hall of Merit— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best
Tuesday, February 06, 2007
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2023 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion (168 - 1:46pm, Jul 13)Last:  DL from MNMost Meritorious Player: Trophy Case (71 - 6:53pm, Jul 08)Last: DL from MNMost Meritorious Player: 1900 Results (6 - 6:28pm, Jul 08)Last: DL from MNMost Meritorious Player: 1900 Ballot (11 - 4:03pm, Jul 06)Last: DL from MNMost Meritorious Player: 1918 Results (6 - 8:58pm, Jun 29)Last: kennaMost Meritorious Player: 1920 Ballot (25 - 8:55pm, Jun 29)Last: kennaMost Meritorious Player: 1900 Discussion (9 - 1:14am, Jun 29)Last: Harmon RipkowskiHall of Merit Book Club (6 - 12:45pm, Jun 28)Last: progrockfanMost Meritorious Player: 1899 Results (6 - 1:51pm, Jun 22)Last: DL from MNMost Meritorious Player: 1899 Ballot (10 - 9:54am, Jun 22)Last: TomHMost Meritorious Player: 1899 Discussion (9 - 9:04am, May 31)Last: DL from MNMost Meritorious Player: 1898 Results (4 - 3:22pm, May 06)Last: DL from MNMost Meritorious Player: 1898 Ballot (8 - 10:07am, May 05)Last: DL from MNMost Meritorious Player: 1898 Discussion (7 - 1:08am, May 02)Last: Harmon RipkowskiMost Meritorious Player: 1897 Results (2 - 4:29pm, Apr 06)Last: DL from MN
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1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 06, 2007 at 01:12 PM (#2292629)1922 Ballot Discussion
1994 Ballot Discussion
If you know of anymore, please let me know so I can add them.
If Matty were pitching today, what contemporary pitcher's breaking ball would his famous fadeaway pitch be compared to?
The question needed answered first is: who are the contemporary scroogie hurlers out there?
I have never seen Mathewson's pitch compared to a circle-change, Eric, but that doesn't mean that it's not. Maybe Paul Wendt or someone else here might know.
"Tim Murnane's book, 'How to Play Base-ball,' No. 202 of Spalding's Athletic Library, says: 'The 'fade-away' ball was introduced by Charles Sweeney in 1884.' Christy Mathewson is the only pitcher at the present time pitching the incurve or 'fade-away' ball, although pitchers have tried in vain to master this curve for the last twenty years. Charles Sweeney, with the Providence Club in 1884, struck out nineteen of the Boston players in a nine-inning game with this same ball. It was so trying on the arm, however, that he had to give it up. After the games for the world's championship in 1905 Mathewson was forced to place his wrist in a plaster cast as the result of this style of pitching. Mathewson is a perfect build for pitching, with a long reach, long fingers, and a good head for detail. He has perhaps mastered more curves than any other man in the business. It would be a waste of time for any ordinary pitcher to try to master the fade-away curve."
In all, there are only 18 NYTimes references to "fade-away AND Mathewson" during his career, with the last reference coming in 1919. One gets the impression that he may have used it only on rare occasion.
A 1925 NYT story refers to a pitcher throwing "with a combination of speed and a fade-away which resembled the famous drop ball of Mathewson." This makes it sound as if the fade-away refers not to the action of the ball moving horizontally but vertically, which means he could have thrown it with near-equal effectiveness against anyone.
This was the series in which Matty went 3-0, pitching games 1, 3, and 5, the last game. Matty's line score was 27 innings, 0 runs, 14 hits, 1 walk, 18 strikeouts.
1) It's a sinking pitch, a drop of some sort.
2) It's a curve that breaks into a righty (based on it being scroogie like).
3) It's a change up that he turned over.
I suppose these could all be part of a single pitch, actually. If you think about Frank Viola's circle change, it broke in multiple planes, which would suggest the drop, the break, and the changeup in one pitch.
One other argument for a changeup would be arm action. He tossed 27 innings in just a few days against a really good Pirates team and just tore through them. A correctly thrown changeup is so tough because it's thrown with the exact same arm speed and slot as the fastball. It's said that curves can be easier to detect for opposing hitters because a pitcher will vary his delivery on them. So you'd think the Pirates might have finally found something after three games, but they don't seem to have. Maybe that suggests a well-thrown change.
Or maybe it just suggests he had a good week. ; )
You didn't know about the year they changed to the Philadelphia Pirates? I thought that was common knowledge.... ; )
That would have been a bit earlier than the time of the famous Steagles juggernaut in the NFL. They always claimed that they were inspired by those mighty Philrates of the deadball era.
Of course the later merger of the Cubs and the Pirates didn't do much for their 0-10 later NFL imitators, but the baseball team's nickname (The Pubs) is still very much a part of our sporting heritage.
I've looked into this. Based on a partial sample size (about 2/3s of all GS) about 25% of all GS in Matty's time came from lefties. There were few lefties in the nineteenth century (best lefty of the century may have been Ted Breitenstein for cryin' out loud). From memory, however, there were considerably more lefties in the AL in the Progressive Era. Heck, prior to Hippo Vaughn the best southpaw in NL history was Rube Marquard, who would've been the third best lefty on the 1908 A's.
Platooning became very popular in the 1910s.
Among hitters, but a form of platoon pitching was well-established before that. Lefthanded pitchers were more likely to face off against certain teams than others, as were righties (think 1950s Brooklyn Dodgers never seeing southpaws). This trend might've come to an historic peak just before the 1910s. Not a real impact on Mathewson, but from 1908-11 the Giants saw far more righthanded opposing pitchers than one would otherwise.
righthandedlefthanded opposing pitchers than one would otherwise.Dammit.
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