|
|
Hall of Merit— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best
Friday, December 10, 2004
Clark Griffith
I’m surprised nobody demanded a thread for the Old Fox before today.
|
Support BBTF
Thanks to Brian for his generous support.
Bookmarks
You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.
Hot Topics
Most Meritorious Player: 1936 Discussion (10 - 7:04pm, Mar 01)Last: kcgard2Most Meritorious Player: 1935 Ballot (6 - 6:05pm, Mar 01)Last: Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handleMost Meritorious Player: 1935 Discussion (34 - 11:23am, Mar 01)Last: DL from MN2022 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion (145 - 8:27pm, Feb 16)Last:  Dr. ChaleekoMark Teixeira, Justin Morneau and Prince Fielder (6 - 9:15pm, Feb 15)Last: puckNewt Allen (20 - 12:26pm, Feb 04)Last: Carl GoetzMost Meritorious Player: 1934 Discussion (18 - 11:51am, Feb 04)Last: DL from MNMost Meritorious Player: 1934 Results (1 - 6:14pm, Feb 03)Last: DL from MNMost Meritorious Player: 1934 Ballot (10 - 4:59pm, Feb 03)Last: DL from MNJimmy Rollins (11 - 2:32pm, Jan 29)Last: Carl GoetzDavid Ortiz (53 - 11:37pm, Jan 28)Last: SoSH U at work2021 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion (651 - 1:45pm, Jan 25)Last:  Bleed the FreakJason Giambi (5 - 11:17pm, Jan 22)Last: The Honorable ArdoHank Aaron (178 - 5:04pm, Jan 22)Last:  Bourbon Samurai stays in the fightPeavy, Nathan, Papelbon, Lincecum, Kazmir and Danks (8 - 8:48pm, Jan 20)Last: The Honorable Ardo
|
|
Reader Comments and Retorts
Go to end of page
Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.
1. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: December 11, 2004 at 08:30 PM (#1013244)237-146, 3.31 ERA, 121 ERA+, in 3385.7 IP
His RSI was 105.50, lowering his record to 233-150.
Accordint to BP...
...3.99 DERA, one of the best on our boardas only six guys are under 4.00. BP does take nearly a 1000 IP off, lowering that number to 2295, but hsi record is still good (154-102). His 5.9 tranlsated K/9 is above average for what we have left and his BB/9 are outstanding at 1.9, only five guys are under 2.0.
K# of 94
BB# of 144
K/BB# of 134
With only 3 1890's pitchers elected and not many 1890's players elected in general, I would not be sad to see Griffith get enshrined, though I think that Vance is more worthy with Waddel and Rixey right there with him.
Then 29-30 in 1890-92, and 26 in 1893.
Then 20-22 in 1894-1903.
Then 24-25 in 1904-1907.
Then 25-28 in 1908-1914.
Then 24 in 1915, 28 in 1916, 25 in 1917 (counting Ruth and Hornsby already).
Then 19 to 22 in 1918 to 1922, with a number of players in those years not yet eligible for our ballots.
I do wonder a little if we are more impressed by early 1900s numbers that are achieved in only 'half the majors.' Those 'low' 1890s years coincide with the drop to one league, and tough competition.
Still, without dramatic quota efforts, we seem to be mixing it up reasonably well.
The main impact of that on rankings: measuring his durability/longevity by innings gives lower numbers than measuring it by decisions.
I also have been going by innings from the start, OCF. Going by decisions distorts what he was doing on the mound, IMO.
The counterargument would be that Griffith's higher decisions per inning accurately reflect that he was pitching proportionately more higher-leveraged innings for his teams, because he was picking up wins in relief. Walsh did a lot of relieving, but he tended to be used in save situations, so his higher saves totals give him credit for leveraged relief pitching. He was 24-10 with 9 saves in 81 relief appearances.
Griffith competed 90% of his starts, so he isn't gaining his higher wins/inning from picking up wins from 6-inning outings.
Baseballreference.com has him with 6 saves, so somebody is wrong there.
The counterargument would be that Griffith's higher decisions per inning accurately reflect that he was pitching proportionately more higher-leveraged innings for his teams, because he was picking up wins in relief. Walsh did a lot of relieving, but he tended to be used in save situations, so his higher saves totals give him credit for leveraged relief pitching.
I believe (please tell me if I'm wrong) that WS takes that into account. I'm not sure how far back it attempts to do this, though.
For whatever reasons, Griffith has an unusually low number of innings pitched per decision (or an unusually high number of decisions per inning, if you want to put it that way.)
How unusual? Baseballistically significant or merely statistically significant?
At a glance, I see < 8ip/wl in 1894 and 1905.
Baseballreference.com has him with 6 saves, so somebody is wrong there.
Probably the 9 saves is wrong, then. I get my data on decisions in relief from my 1982 MacMillan Baseball Encyclopedia, and their numbers are sometimes a little off, esp. for 19th-century players.
The average IP/WL for the 58 was 8.76 with a standard deviation of 0.21.
Let Group I be Walsh, Rusie, Nichols, Grove, Alexander, Young, McGinnity, Faber, Brown, Plank, Coveleski, Mathewson, and Johnson. The average for Group I was 8.82 if you include all of them, 8.78 if you leave out Walsh (an outlier at 9.23).
Let Group II be Joss, Cicotte, Shocker, Waddell, Willis, Rixie, Grimes, Luque - those whose candidacies are still alive. The average for Group II was 8.81 if you don't include Griffith among them, 8.75 if you do include Griffith.
That would leave Group III (the less-serious or not-yet candidates, the Tannehills and Ruckers) averaging 8.73, or 8.75 if you leave out the other outlier, Ferrell.
Griffith is at 8.28, the second lowest on the list of 58 with only Ferrell lower. Walter Johnson is at 8.50, which is fairly low, and hints that this is mostly about decisions in relief rather than about innings per start.
It doesn't have a particularly large baseball significance - but for a borderline HoM candidate like Griffith, a small discrepancy in estimates of his career length and durability may mean many places in the rankings.
It shouldn't go without mention that an "inning" is far larger (more batters) in the mid-90's offensive explosion than it is in the time of Walsh and Brown.
Post #13 is complete nonsense, at least as far as Griffith is concerned. He does NOT have a low IP/decision. In fact, he has a perfectly ordinary, even slighly above average 8.84 IP/decision.
The error I made? I had his whole career W-L record (at least within a handful of decisions) but my IP and runs allowed were not for his full career. When I started doing this, I was only working with years from 1894 on; I later added 1889-1893 to pick up the whole careers of Nichols, Young, and Rusie. I forgot to update Griffith, and hence was missing his 1891 and 1893 seasons. I have now fixed that mistake, adding 246 innings (about 27 virtual decisions) to his record.
The problem is, adding in 1891 and 1893 doesn't do Griffith much good. 1893 is only 20 unspectacular innings, so most of it is the 1891 AA. Now, the 1891 AA does deserve a steep league quality discount. Griffith split his time between a park with a park factor of 94 and one with a park factor of 113. For the purposes of putting him in my system, I set the park factor at 95; that's the league quality discount right there. That gives him a 94 RA+ for a 12-13 equivalent record for that year. The value of that is positive, but small.
My new career equivalent record for him: 216-160. The closest match for that is Wilbur Cooper at 220-166.
Here are two items about the beginning and end of
Griffith's minor league career in Milwaukee.
Before July 4, 1888, Milwaukee manager Jim Hart sent pitcher
John Quincy Adams Struck
>>
to the Bloomington club of the Inter-State club. In return, Hart paid $1,000 for that club and the league's best pitcher, who averaged over 12 strikeouts per game. He was first identified as "Griffin." He was Clark Griffith.
. . .
Friday the 13th [of July ...] The indifferent Griffith fared so meekly against the visiting Chicago Maroons that many surmised he was pitching for his release to the mutually interested St Louis Browns.
<< --Brian A. Podoll, The Minor League Milwaukee Brewers 1859-1952, p47-48, citing the Milwaukee Sentinel
Charlie Cushman succeeded Hart for 1890. In 1891,
>>
Cushman would have to make his pennant dash without Clark Griffith, who accepted $750 more than the $1,500 the Brewers offered. Griff would finally be united with Chris von der Ahe's St Louis Browns. Had Griffith not departed so abruptly, Milwaukee may have tacked on another $200-$300.
<< --Podoll p56, citing Milwaukee Sentinel
Otherwise, Cushman secured almost everyone he wanted except Jesse Burkett. (Milwaukee finished 1891 in the major AA.)
Jim Hart succeeded Al Spalding as Chicago NL President, 1892-1905, including Griffith's tenure with that club.
Daguerreotypes shows Griffith with Oakland in 1893, as was said, 30-18.
In 1892 he played with Tacoma in the P. N. W., presumably Pacific North West league. He was 13-7 in 24 G.
In 1891 he played in the AA. In 1890, age 20, he was 27-7 in 34 G with Milwaukee in the Western league. With MLB players in short supply, it's a bit strange he wasn't tried by a big league team.
Completing Griffith's minor league record.
In 1888 with Bloomington in the Cent.-Int. St. league he was 10-4 in 14G. K/W was 123/16.
Also in 1888, with Milwaukee in the Western league he was 12-10 in 23 G. K/W was 130/50.
In 1889 with Milwaukee he was 18-13 in 31 G. K/W was 159/91.
You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.
<< Back to main