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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Sunday, June 01, 2008Election Results: We Like First Basemen Gehrig, Foxx, Anson, Mize and Brouthers the Best!By unanimous decision, the Yankee’s pride Lou Gehrig was picked as the best first baseman of all-time. With a strong endorsement from the electorate, A’s and BoSox slugger Jimmie Foxx earned 93% of all possible points. 19th century icon Cap Anson had the third highest total with his impressive 85%, while power hitter Johnny Mize followed him with 83%. The only other candidate to be credited with at least 75% support from us was 1880s star Dan Brouthers with a commendable 81%. RK LY Player PTS Bal 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1 n/e Lou Gehrig 440 22 22 2 n/e Jimmie Foxx 410 22 16 4 2 3 n/e Cap Anson 374 22 4 4 7 3 3 1 4 n/e Johnny Mize 366 22 6 6 7 2 1 5 n/e Dan Brouthers 357 22 2 5 1 7 4 2 1 6 n/e Roger Connor 333 22 2 4 2 7 4 2 1 7 n/e Hank Greenberg 295 22 3 11 4 2 2 8 n/e Eddie Murray 274 22 1 1 1 1 5 6 4 3 9 n/e Willie McCovey 257 22 1 1 2 1 1 4 3 8 1 10 n/e Buck Leonard 246 22 7 5 3 2 3 1 1 11 n/e Mark McGwire 242 22 1 1 1 1 4 6 3 2 2 1 12 n/e Harmon Killebrew 197 22 1 3 2 9 4 1 1 1 13 n/e Joe Start 160 22 1 2 4 3 4 3 1 3 1 14 n/e Will Clark 154 22 2 8 3 6 3 15 n/e Mule Suttles 144 22 1 2 2 7 5 3 1 1 16 n/e Keith Hernandez 116 22 1 1 3 3 6 5 2 1 17 n/e George Sisler 87 22 2 2 4 4 5 5 18 n/e Bill Terry 74 22 1 3 4 9 5 19 n/e Jake Beckley 72 22 1 1 1 4 6 9 Ballots Cast: 22 Thanks to OCF and Ron Wargo for their tallying help!
John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy
Posted: June 01, 2008 at 10:12 PM | 23 comment(s)
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1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: June 02, 2008 at 12:05 AM (#2802484)One thing to note - that order at the bottom - Sisler, then Terry, then Beckley - overturns an order established in our yearly elections. In 1942, Terry was elected with 571 points while Beckley and Sisler were 10th and 11th with 402 and 399, respectively. We did then elect Sisler before Beckley.
Gehrig, Foxx, McGwire, (Suttles), Murray, Mize, Killebrew, (Leonard), Greenberg, McCovey, Anson, Mattingly, Perez, Clark, Allen, Hernandez, Cepeda, Brouthers, Cash, Connor.
Leonard and Suttles were not actually ranked in James first base list , since he did not integrate his NeL and ML positional lists. They are the #1 first baseman and the #2 left fielder in his NeL rankings. As both make his top 100 players list, which is integrated, it is easy to add them into the first-base rankings. In his top 100, James had Suttles 43rd and Leonard 65th. That would put them where they appear above in a first-base only list.
The other HoM first basemen are ranked by James as follows (again, with numbers adjusted to omit players not yet HoM eligible from James's count):
George Sisler, #22 (#24without removing not-yet-eligibles or adding NeL players).
Bill Terry, #24 (#26 without removing not-yet-eligibles or adding NeL players).
Jake Beckley, #47 (#52 without removing not-yet-eligiblesor adding NeL players)
Joe Start, #101 (108 without removing not-yet-eligiblesor adding NeL players).
It would have been interesting to see what kind of writeup James would have given to Joe Start, had he found room for him in the top 100 ahead of guys like Don Mincher, Deron Johnson, Joe Pepitone, and Ripper Collins, who round out the top 100.
We are certainly offering a different perspective! though we are in substantial agreement (to within two or threes spots) with James on about half of the all-time top 20 first basemen.
You don't think Joe Pepitone was greater than Start, Chris? ;-)
I doubt that the results would have been any different with our full compliment of voters, too.
The voting breaks down at the bottom. The inability to put players not on the list into the rankings explains the difference. In all likelihood we could elect Ben Taylor in the next few years and slot him ahead of Terry and Beckley.
> I doubt that the results would have been any different with our full compliment of voters
Seeing how Terry and Beckley basically tied and karlmagnus didn't vote, I'm going to disagree.
It is striking how we all REALLY agree that Greenberg is the 7th best 1B ever.
I meant if we had around 50 voters, Dan.
How he would have constructed the top of his rankings is rather uncertain, since most of those players were at the top of their annual ballots, and the potentially informative 1903 ballot, featuring Anson and Connor, is lost (I could dig it out of the way-back machine, but I'm not _that_ committed to this little exercise). It can be established, however, that without rethinking his rankings, Karlmagnus would have placed Beckley 9th on his ballot. He would trail
1-8. Gehrig, Foxx, Anson, Brouthers, Connor, Mize, Start, and Murray (possibly in that order, but I can't say for sure except that Murray would almost certainly be last, and Start would trail the ABC boys. Given Karl's system, a #1 placement of Anson would not have been out of the question, I think)
9. Beckley
10. McCovey
11-12. Sisler and McGwire
13. Greenberg
14. Allen
15-16. Killebrew and Leonard
17. Clark
18-19. Terry and Suttles
20. Hernandez
Karl would have been easily the best friend of Beckley and among the best friends of Start and Sisler, but otherwise his rankings would likely have been more or less in agreement with the rest. With the exception of Start, his top 8 matches the top 8 we elected. At least, that's how I see it from examining his votes.
If you correct Anson to 130-game-played seasons he had 4,700 hits and so would have been my #1 (how did you guess?)
On Beckley, I think I'd have had McCovey and maybe Greenberg ahead of him, #11 not #9 therefore. I'm also not sure Mize is top-8. But Beckley at 11 looks right.
On the rest I'd have had Suttles above Clark, but otherwise as you had them.
Unknown
N/A Mule Suttles (N/A)
N/A Buck Leonard (N/A)
Suttles has a reputation as a poor fielder in the McCovey mold. Leonard has a good fielding reputation.
The Worst
C- Willie McCovey (-48); LF (-13)
C- George Sisler (-23)
C Dick Allen (-21); 3B (-25); LF (-18)
C- Mark McGwire (-8)
B- Dan Brouthers (-7)
Not surprised about McCovey, Allen, McGwire and Brouthers, but what is Sisler doing here??? Sisler's poor rating is consistent for Davenport and James.
Solid
B Harmon Killebrew (0); 3B (-76); LF (-47) (also D at 3B)
A Jimmie Foxx (0); C (-1); 3B (5)
B Johnny Mize (8)
B- Lou Gehrig (11)
B- Cap Anson (12); C (-5); 3B (38);
Foxx is the only James/Davenport inconsistency. Killebrew never should have been anything but a 1B.
Good
A+ Bill Terry (23)
B- Eddie Murray (26)
B Joe Start (28)
Terry is an excellent fielder according to James, not so much according to Davenport.
Great
A- Hank Greenberg (38); LF (-14)
C+ Will Clark (42)
B Jake Beckley (45)
James and Davenport clearly do not agree on Will Clark. Beckley's fielding rep is worse than both the fielding metrics show.
Excellent
A Roger Connor (71); 3B (-13)
A- Keith Hernandez (100)
Hernandez is easily the best fielding 1B in the HOM. I will be doing this for each position so as not to make the Connor mistake again.
I have no real disagreements, though it does seem odd that three of the top 6 1B ever peaked prior to the 1890's. That said, overall there are few complaints. My highest non-HOM firstbaseman is Don Mattingly and I would only have placed him at 17, a good bit behind Suttles.
Zai Jian (goodbye in CHinese)
If not, why not?
Plausible DH effects may be dampened a lot by use of that position for aging or hurting players. Fourteen mlb teams with designated hitters do not make 14 more major league careers for 1B-, LF-, and RF-quality batters.
I believe it most definitely does make 14 more major league careers for 1B-, LF-, and RF-quality batters. If someone playing LF is moved to DH because he is old or hurt, then another player gets to play LF who otherwise would not have had a job.
only if the aged or hurt player would be used in the field without the DH, which is true only some of the time. Insofar as the DH extends some careers, and packs more playing time into some careers, it doesn't generate extra careers.
But if we were to name our starting lineup in a DH league, then we'd have to add someone to the lineup. I would say that a viable candidate for that would have to have finished second at his own position - and it's reasonably clear who that will be in most cases. I see 9 ways to get a DH into the lineup:
1. Gibson as DH, Bench as C.
2. Gehrig as DH, Foxx as 1B.
3. Gehrig as DH, Musial as 1B.
4. Hornsby as DH, Collins as 2B.
5. Mathews as DH, Schmidt as 3B.
6. Williams as DH, Musial as LF.
7. Cobb as DH, Mays as CF.
8. Ruth as DH, Aaron as RF.
9. Ruth as DH, Musial as RF.
Of course there are a few prima donnas there who might not let you DH them.
Cobb LF
Wagner SS
Williams DH
Ruth RF
Gibson C
Gehrig 1B
Mays CF
Schmidt 3B
Collins 2B
You could legitimately pick that lineup out of a hat, but I would go with:
CF Mays/Cobb (no idea which one right now, but either would slot nicely at leadoff)
SS Wagner (easy choice here)
LF Bonds (that OBP would be fantastic ahead of the next group)
RF Ruth (only real choice is whether the Babe should hit 3rd or 4th)
DH Williams (He would have 8 million RBIs batting behind Bonds and Ruth)
C Gibson (I like mixing a righty in, but I could go with Gehrig here)
1B Gehrig (he might not complain about being slotted lower)
3B Schmidt (actually, I might go with Hornsby at 3B)
2B Collins (he wouldn't like hitting 8th)
I actually didn't realize that Alex Rodriguez soon has a legitimate argument to be slotted into this lineup until I just compared him to Schmidt. If Alex never played again, he would still have about the same OPS+ (148 A-Rod 147 Schmidt). Schmidt currently has better WARP numbers (105.6 W1, 142.1 W3 for A-Rod; 156.7 W1, 157.0 W3 for Schmidt) Also, Schmidt has a bit more career and was a better fielding 3B, but of course Rodriguez played a very good shortstop. Schmidt's offensive context was lower, so his career line (.267, .380, .527, 1506 R, 548 HR, 1595 RBI) looks a little worse than A-Rod (.307, .390, .580, 1540 R, 532 HR, 1544 RBI). Still, A-Rod is getting remarkably close.
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