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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Tuesday, November 05, 2013Expansion Era Hall of Fame Mock BallotThe rules are the same as for the committee that will meet in December. Player bios and complete rules are available on the Baseball Hall of Fame website. Vote for zero to five names from the combined list of twelve candidates. 75% is required to be elected. Balloting will end 11/11/2013 at 3:00pm EST. This is for all registered BBTF users, not just typical Hall of Merit voters. Eligible Candidates: Bobby Cox, Dave Concepcion, Steve Garvey, Tommy John, Tony LaRussa, Billy Martin, Marvin Miller, Dave Parker, Dan Quisenberry, Ted Simmons, George Steinbrenner, Joe Torre ————————— RESULTS Congratulations to Bobby Cox, Tony LaRussa, Marvin Miller and Joe Torre 60 voters participated Candidate Percent Joe Torre 95.0% Bobby Cox 93.3% Tony LaRussa 88.3% Marvin Miller 76.7% Ted Simmons 66.7% G Steinbrenner 21.7% Tommy John 10.0% Billy Martin 5.0% Dan Quisenberry 3.3% Dave Concepcion 1.7% Dave Parker 1.7% Steve Garvey 0.0% |
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1. DL from MN Posted: November 05, 2013 at 12:12 PM (#4594180)Bobby Cox
Marvin Miller
Tony LaRussa
Ted Simmons
Joe Torre
Marvin Miller
Tony La Russa
Ted Simmons
Joe Torre
(in no particular order)
Marvin Miller
George Steinbrenner
Bobby Cox
Tony LaRussa
Joe Torre
Feel bad about leaving Simmons off. He's well qualified, it's just that I see 5 better candidates.
LaRussa
Miller
Simmons
Torre
Torre
LaRussa
Miller
Simmons
Tony LaRussa
Joe Torre
Marvin Miller
Tommy John
John was a pretty good player, and I think he deserves some extra credit for the surgery. I think Dr. Jobe should be in the hall of fame too. Simmons is certainly a strong candidate, and I probably would vote for him if I were allowed a sixth vote.
Ted Simmons
Dave Parker
Joe Torre
Tony La Russa (PED is a smudge but not a dealkiller for me w/ managers or players)
Marvin Miller
Bobby Cox (great manager for long time...but 1 title and had 4 HOFs in their primes + Andruw Jones)
Ted Simmons (any catcher at 50+ rWAR should be an automatic)
I don't see anyone else on this ballot that's particularly deserving. Martin and Parker were great at their peak but their infamy is self-inflicted. Garvey produced more kids than walks. Enough w/ the relievers. Concepcion falls short and no idea why him over Campaneris.
Bobby Cox
Marvin Miller
Tony LaRussa
Ted Simmons
Joe Torre
Cox
LaRussa
Miller
Steinbrenner
Cox
LaRussa
Simmons
Miller
Cox
Simmons
Miller
LaRussa
Tony LaRussa
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Joe Torre
LaRussa
Quiz
Simmons
Torre
To me, the last spot was a toss up between Miller, Parker, and Quisenberry. Miller had the longest lasting and greatest impact, Parker, at his best, was a beast, but in the end, I gave bonus points to whom was the most fun for me as a fan.
Simmons
Cox
Miller
LaRussa
Bobby Cox
Tony La Russa
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Joe Torre
Bobby Cox
Tony LaRussa
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
George Steinbrenner
Joe Torre
I'm on the fence on Martin
Not sure I'd leave a player off before I left one of the others off, Ron.
It's a difficult question because these candidates are of different kinds. Frankly, it doesn't even make sense to include them all on the same ballot. Torre over Simmons is justifiable because Torre was close as a player and has the managing over Simmons, but even that kind of combined-work analysis doesn't really make sense.
---
Anyway, I'd go with:
Cox
LaRussa
Miller
Simmons
Torre
Notes:
* If one of Torre/Cox/LaRussa, then all of them.
* That leaves the choice between Miller and Steinbrenner, which is an easy choice for me. Which is not to say that Steinbrenner doesn't belong.
Marvin Miller
Tony LaRussa
Joe Torre
Cox
Torre
LaRussa
Miller
TJohn
TJohn just beats out Simmons for my last spot but both are worthy
" Garvey produced more kids than walks"----that is probably the best comment I've seen on BBTF!
There are no write ins but Dw Evans, Hernandez, and Grich are serious snubs by the Historical Overview Committee
DL: Thanks for putting this together
Tony LaRussa
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Joe Torre
Simmons
Torre
Cox
LaRussa
Miller
Had there been room, would have likely voted for John. Could be talked into Quisenberry under the right circumstances. Agreed that Grich and Evans are serious omissions, and Hernandez has a good case also.
EDIT: If Bill James is eligible on this ballot, he's also a serious omission.
Crap, take out Simmons. Counting to five is hard.
-- MWE
Tony LaRussa
Marvin Miller
George Steinbrenner
Joe Torre
LaRussa
Miller
Simmons
Torre
Cox
John
Simmons
Torre
Parker and LaRussa just off the ballot. I tend toward big hall for players and managers, small hall for execs.
Simmons
LaRussa
Cox
Torre
Miller
Simmons
This seems like the early frontrunner as most common ballot.
Torre
Simmons
Steinbrenner
Torre
LaRussa
Miller
Steinbrenner
rules
"Voting - The Committee shall consider all 12 candidates and voting shall be based upon the individual's record, ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contribution to the game. Electors may vote for as few as zero (0) and as many as five (5) eligible candidates deemed worthy of election. Write-in votes are not permitted."
Torre - in HOM as a hitter only, and rivals the other MGR candidates just as MGR
Simmons - shunned for not being Johnny Bench. geesh
LaRussa - annoying but successful and somewhat innovatively annoying as well
Cox - shoulda won more than once but ok
Tony LaRussa
Marvin Miller
George Steinbrenner
Joe Torre
Tony LaRussa
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Joe Torre
Which echoes many above me. Sorry.
Tony LaRussa
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Joe Torre
Bobby Cox. Record 16 playoff appearances, 1 WS, 4 more Pennants, 10 more division winners, 4th all time in wins with a .556 that is the best of the Big 3 up for grabs. Another WS or 2 would be nice, but this resume is more than sufficient
Tony LaRussa. 3 WS, 6 division winners Pennants, out of 14 playoff appearances, 3rd all time in wins. That is sufficient to overlook any negatives.
George Steinbrenner. Took over a team that had been totally screwed up by CBS, and turned them into a powerhouse, changing the economics of the game, while being a larger than life figure as Von Steingrabber. If you are going to elect owners -- and they are -- he belongs.
Marvin Miller. If you are going to elect owners, you should elect their Nemesis, who also changed the economics of the game, by getting the players more of their fair share.
Miller
Cox
La Russa
Simmons
Torre
I'm of the opposite opinion of most people here. I think that Torre needs his playing career to hold up his dicey managing. I got to see Joe manage in STL for a few years, and he was downright bad. Then he moved to NYY and his two real credentials for managing suddenly popped up as being the most important skills in that environment: 1) Keeping the NYY press from blowing up the clubhouse, and 2) Keeping the owner from blowing up the clubhouse.
Torre is legitimately good at those two credentials, but in STL, where #1 is trivial, and #2 was nothing like keeping GEORGE! under control, his managing came down to roster/lineup selection and tactics and strategy. Torre was poor at all of those. In many of his NYY years, those credentials were not important, because you had so much talent that you could win if you could just keep the whole collection of egos pointed in the same direction. Torre could do that, but was there any other environment where those two credentials would have been the paramount ones in the environment? Probably not, and then its back to rosters, lineups, strategy and tactics.
So I don't end up thinking that Joe's managing outweighs Ted Simmons playing his entire career at catcher, instead of fleeing to 3B and 1B for the back half or more. - Brock Hanke
George the Third-Took a $2M investment (And promised not to interfere! Remember that?),turned it into the most valuable franchise in American sports.Not to mention 6 titles and changing the game.People can ##### and whine all they want.Lots of teams had the same base opportunity as George did (I'm looking at you Cubs, Dodgers and Mets). Few even tried.George remade the Yankees into the beast they are today,and in doing so, helped drive baseball into the modern era. It's impossible to tell the story of baseball in the last 50 years w/o him. And I say this as a Red Sox fan who spent most of my life despising the man.
Torre-I like his career less than most but 4 titles in 6 years,especially under George? Yeah,that gets my vote.
Cox-Took the Jays to the brink of the series (The year BC beat them the ALCS had just expanded from 5 to 7 games.Had it still been five,the Jays would have won 3-1). Quit and built the Braves farm system,then took over the reins for one of the great runs in history.
LaRussa-Love him. Hate him. The man changed the game.Won at every stop. Went out on top. The single most influential manager post Martin(Who it really kills me not to vote for.)
Torre
Cox
LaRussa
Miller
Martin
I don't think much of the players on the ballot – well, at least as far as the Hall of Fame goes. They were terrific players and great gentlemen. Garvey was a great competitor, no matter what his status as a running joke around here.
Four of these were easy choices. The fifth came down to Martin or Steinbrenner, and really, how can anyone vote for George in that race? :)
Bobby Cox
Tony LaRussa
Marvin Miller
And because I have no shame...
Dan Quisenberry
Torre
LaRussa
Miller
Steinbrenner
If I had another vote it'd go to John but I can't put him in over any of the five I picked.
1. Joe Torre - I'd probably vote for him as a player. I'd probably vote for him as a manager. The combination becomes a no-doubter.
2. Bobby Cox - If there are going to be managers in the Hall-of-Fame, Cox should be one of them.
3. Tony LaRussa - ditto
4. Ted Simmons - deservedly in the HOM
5. Tommy John - Very good for a very long time; small bonus for the surgery, but I don't think he needs it.
I have nothing against Marvin Miller, beyond the fact that I'm not a huge fan of non-players/managers in the HOF in general. Mostly, I just ran out of ballot space.
The other two players that I could be persuaded to vote for are Parker and Quisenberry although I think I lean "no" on both of them right now even without the ballot limit.
Martin would be kind of borderline - undeniable success, but undeniably short-lived - even without the ballot limit. A Hall-of-Fame with Tom Yawkey probably has room for George Steinbrenner, but I'm not a big fan of the fact that the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown has Tom Yawkey: as I said above, I'd prefer the Hall stick to honoring on-field personnel. I think that's everybody.
Ted Simmons
Joe Torre
Tony LaRussa
Tony Larussa
George Steinbrenner
Bobby Cox
Billy Martin
1) La Russa - the most significant manager post-WWII.
2) Joe Torre (combined playing and managing credit)
3) Marvin Miller
4) Bobby Cox
5) Ted Simmons
Comments on the others: John (who I'm strongly supporting for the Hall of Merit), Concepcion, and Parker are strong candidates. Garvey and Quisenberry, not as much.
I'd never vote for Steinbrenner but he will eventually be inducted. Billy Martin is the other way around.
Steinbrenner
Torre
Cox
La Russa
Simmons
Cox
LaRussa
Miller
Simmons
That last spot between Steinbrenner and Simmons is a tough one, I might change my mind a few times on it if I thought about it long enough.
Cox
LaRussa
Miller
Simmons
Easiest ballot ever. 5 obvious choices, none of the others worth consideration. OK, maybe Martin, but he's pretty marginal. Not sure I'd put him on if I had room. Probably not.
"I think that Torre needs his playing career to hold up his dicey managing. I got to see Joe manage in STL for a few years, and he was downright bad."
Well, Torre's use of Rivera in the postseason was not only spectacularly shrewd, I'm not convinced who else would have been as aggressive. use in tie games, use for 4 outs, 5 outs, 6 outs - whatever was necessary. considering Rivera's results and the narrow margin of many of the postseason series, Torre should get a lot of credit for that.
And while I'm not a huge fan of WPA in general (at least as a measure of value -- I do think it has use as both a narrative stat and a tie breaker), I think it's a very good way of looking at the impact of short relievers.
His WPA in the playoffs was 8.8. The opposite numbers combined for a WPA of .6. A big part of that difference is Torre's much more aggressive handling of Rivera compared to the way his peers handled their relief ace (or ace setup guy for the time Wetteland was the closer)
LaRussa
Cox
Torre
Simmons
Miller
I would like to point out that one of the things I thought about was "What does a team really look for in a manager?" If you've got a really terrible team and you're looking for a manager that can turn it around and make it a winner in only one year, that's something Cox and LaRussa couldn't do, and Torre sure as heck couldn't do that.
But Billy Martin could. He did it multiple times with multiple teams. So I think that should be noted.
The more I thought about it, however, I thought stability counts for something. A stable manager (with a stable front office) can build a program that may not necessarily take off the first year but can start becoming successful within 2 or 3 years and maintain some success for a period of years. Both Cox and LaRussa were able to build that kind of situation with multiple teams, so that's where I give them the edge over Martin.
Torre I have weighting about 80% on his playing career and 20% on the managing. I don't think he's in the same league as the other guys as a manager but I think he was terribly underrated as a player.
Simmons is an example of a guy who just played at the wrong time. Had he played at virtually any other time in history he would have been an easy lock for the HOF. He was seriously dinged by an age of misinformation, too. His reputation defensively was about the same as the media portrayed Piazza in a later generation. At the time, back in the '70s, no one was carefully tracking % of runners thrown out stealing like they do today. Yet his image as portrayed in the media was that he couldn't throw anybody out. Now that we have the actual numbers at our disposal we can see that this was a totally false appraisal. But when a narrative gets going, facts only get in the way.
The only way any baseball owner should be inside the HOF is if (s)he buys a ticket.
Larussa
Miller
Torre
LaRussa
Miller
Torre
If I were a big Hall guy I'd add Simmons too. But I'm not.
In the post season, he recognized that every game was crucial, and he played to win the one in front of him now. My favorite move of his was when he pulled Neagle in the bottom of the 5th, one run game, Game 4 of the 2000 WS, and brought in David Cone to face Mike Piazza.
You don't have to be a big Hall guy, you just have to look at him and realize he's nearly the same as HOF Catchers Gabby Hartnett, Bill Dickey, and Mickey Cochrane, and not that far behind Yogi Berra.
Cox
Steinbrenner
Simmons
Martin
I think he's terribly overrated as a player, at least from what I've seen at BBTF. I disagree with simply calling him a Catcher and saying he compares well with HOF Catchers; he played only 41% of his career as a Catcher. I've tried looking at him many different ways to assess his HOF worthiness as a player, but I just don't get there no matter how I turn it.
As an example, today I compared him to Catchers through age 29, as that was the last time he was one and it seems to be the most common argument for him, that he's a HOF Catcher. He definitely looks like a HOF Catcher for that period of a Catcher's career, except for one crucial element. Even during that period of his career he was only a Catcher about 65% of the time. Other HOF-level Catchers to that point in their careers were catching over 90% of the time. Mauer, the next lowest, was about 80%. A portion of the reason why he looked like a HOF Catcher early in his career was he had a significant amount of time when he was not behind the plate, making it easier for him to hit and stay fresh.
Then take a look at him from 30 through 36, the end of his career, and compare him to 1B and 3B. Does he look like other HOF 1B/3B for that period of his career? No, he does not. He's a bit short on playing time, he's not overwhelming on offense, and he's a poor defender. He doesn't have a HOF resume for the latter one third of his career (if you compare him to the positions he played). Although he looks like a HOF for his early career, thanks in part to not having to be a full time Catcher, he does not look like a HOF for the last one third. It's just not enough, unless you're a Big Hall proponent. I don't think he's even a good choice for a Medium Hall. Not enough time as a Catcher and not nearly good enough as a corner IF.
Joe Torre - should be in already as a player, one of the great managers
Bobby Cox - One of the great managers
Tony LaRussa - ditto
Marvin Miller - Should've been elected while still alive, but they waited too long again
"I think he's terribly overrated as a player, at least from what I've seen at BBTF. I disagree with simply calling him a Catcher and saying he compares well with HOF Catchers; he played only 41% of his career as a Catcher."
Torre did not get to have his overall offensive stats measured in HOM balloting as if he was a catcher. He was in that positional category, but he was fully dinged by our electorate for both not catching that much and not being great at it. He would have done far better in the "Catchers" voting otherwise. He was one of the "sandwich" selections, really, as a player alone - the HOF elected about 60 duds and we found better choice.
But the fact that he even made that group as player only and yeah, his team won a memorable postseason game or two means that that it's pretty silly to deny the guy (even ignoring the Rivera edge that he so well exploited).
There might be something to say for Torre in that regard, though. Nobody was as extreme as Martin in taking a team straight to victory. And Torre didn't take the Mets anywhere; and he caught the Yankees on an uptick, and they were the Yankees. But he did win a division his first year in Atlanta with a club that had been mediocre at best for many years, and two straight in LA with a team that had been futzing around aimlessly for a while. Those stints were relatively brief and are maybe nothing to write home about in the grand scheme, but they're very positive indicators for him knowing what he was doing in a dugout.
No. He got a hit off me in his one AB - letting him, into the HOF would up the BA of honorees from .222 to .263.
Actually, no. I am a very small HOF guy and would not include Simmons - and would not have included many of the current members of the Hall that compare with Ted.
Hall of Famers really only hit .222 off you? Any chance you could post the breakdown? :-)
Cox
LaRussa
Torre
Miller
Simmons
So yeah, basically who almost everyone else had. And no one else would get my vote even if it was allowed.
Reminder - I'm wrapping the election today. Nobody has voted in two days so that's probably a good call.
Total: 4-for-18, .222. (Including Nolan Ryan's 0-for-1 drops it to .211.)
Tommy John
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Joe Torre
No particular order
Bob Tufts fears no man!
RESULTS
Congratulations to Bobby Cox, Tony LaRussa, Marvin Miller and Joe Torre
60 voters participated
Candidate Percent
Joe Torre 95.0%
Bobby Cox 93.3%
Tony LaRussa 88.3%
Marvin Miller 76.7%
Ted Simmons 66.7%
G Steinbrenner 21.7%
Tommy John 10.0%
Billy Martin 5.0%
Dan Quisenberry 3.3%
Dave Concepcion 1.7%
Dave Parker 1.7%
Steve Garvey 0.0%
I would have voted for Torre (even just as a player), Cox, LaRussa, Miller and Simmons given the 5 limit. Unlimited I would have also voted for Steinbrenner (a lot of thought, I see both sides to it, but I tend to lean towards a yes if it's close enough to think deep about it), John (high on my HoM ballot each year), Martin and Concepcion.
While I'm glad Quisenberry made the ballot, just in a "don't forget about this guy, especially if you elected Sutter," way; I don't endorse the selection of Sutter and Quisenberry had a really short career, even with all of those hi-leverage relief innings in the early 80s.
Was Bobby Grich eligible for this ballot? If so, how on earth did he miss it?
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