|
|
Hall of Merit— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best
Monday, March 07, 2005
|
Support BBTF
Thanks to 1k5v3L for his generous support.
Bookmarks
You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.
Hot Topics
Most Meritorious Player: 1935 Results (3 - 7:30pm, Mar 03)Last: QufiniMost Meritorious Player: 1935 Ballot (11 - 4:04pm, Mar 03)Last: DL from MNMost Meritorious Player: 1935 Discussion (37 - 1:42pm, Mar 03)Last: John (You Can Call Me Grandma) MurphyMost Meritorious Player: 1936 Discussion (11 - 7:52pm, Mar 02)Last: Eric J can SABER all he wants to2022 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion (145 - 8:27pm, Feb 16)Last:  Dr. ChaleekoMark Teixeira, Justin Morneau and Prince Fielder (6 - 9:15pm, Feb 15)Last: puckNewt Allen (20 - 12:26pm, Feb 04)Last: Carl GoetzMost Meritorious Player: 1934 Discussion (18 - 11:51am, Feb 04)Last: DL from MNMost Meritorious Player: 1934 Results (1 - 6:14pm, Feb 03)Last: DL from MNMost Meritorious Player: 1934 Ballot (10 - 4:59pm, Feb 03)Last: DL from MNJimmy Rollins (11 - 2:32pm, Jan 29)Last: Carl GoetzDavid Ortiz (53 - 11:37pm, Jan 28)Last: SoSH U at work2021 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion (651 - 1:45pm, Jan 25)Last:  Bleed the FreakJason Giambi (5 - 11:17pm, Jan 22)Last: The Honorable ArdoHank Aaron (178 - 5:04pm, Jan 22)Last:  Bourbon Samurai stays in the fight
|
|
Reader Comments and Retorts
Go to end of page
Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.
1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 07, 2005 at 02:00 AM (#1184915)*Reasonable offensive value match in my system to Konetchy or Veach.
Yeah, he's in. Not much question about that.
I, too, couldn't believe my eyes at first, but Hartnett was that good. Any thoughts?
baseballlibrary has an amusing anecdote about his mysterious dead arm in 1929. Anyone else have any information on this?
year Gms ABs Rs Hs 2B 3 H RBI Avg.
1921 100 345 38 91 21 7 3 xx .264
Defense
POs Ast Ers Avg.
447 104 19 .967
He played one year with Worcester of the Eastern League at age 20 before the Cubs bought / brought him up in 1922.
The book mentions a "sore arm and was used as pinch hitter." The Biographical Encyclopedia mentions he damaged his arm in spring training. BJHBA mentions "extremely sore arm." Rotator cuff?
Among eligibles, only Frank Chance has a better ws/per 648 PA than Hartnett - 30.8 to 29.4. Win shares sees him as the best catcher in the NL in 1924, 1925, 1927, 1928, 1930, 1932, 1933, 1934, 1935, and 1937. Best in majors in 1925, 1928, 1934 and 1935. OPS+ 126. Win shares rates his defense as an "A+" with 6 gold gloves. Led his league in assists, double plays, and fielding pct 6 times each.
I think it's extremely strong.
I, too, couldn't believe my eyes at first, but Hartnett was that good. Any thoughts?
I also have Hartnett surprisingly competitive with Hartnett in my new system. I still think Grove was better even without his Baltimore years added in, but there is no denying that Hartnett is more than your run-of-the-mill type HoMer. He was a behemoth at his position, IMO.
I'll be here all week. Try the veal.
But seriously, shouldn't the best catcher of all-time rank ahead of the 5th to 10th best pitcher? I'm not certain he is number 1 -- I'm a Bench fan and Irod is not through yet, but if I came to the conclusion he was #1, I'd hesitate before putting Grove above him.
I could change it because I have the power, but it amuses me so I won't. :-)
I'd hesitate before putting Grove above him.
I agree, but you have to admit that it's weird saying that. I never had that impression of Hartnett before this project, but he was a true giant.
Anson? Banks?
Hartnett over Anson? It's hard for almost anyone to beat 27 years of play like Cap had, so I would say no at the present time.
Hartnett
Banks
Sandberg? Williams? Santo? Sosa?
I'd take Hartnett over all four of them, too.
If there is a battle, it's between Hartnett and Anson.
BTW, I forgot that Anson "only" played 22 years in Chicago, so Hartnett may be the man after all.
But the leagues aren't neutral. At least for the first half of their careers, the AL was the dominant league. Cochrane was competing against the big boys. If we are going to penalize Roush, Rixey, and Grimes for their level of competition, we need to remember the uneven playing field over the first part of Hartnett's career, lest we give him an unfair leg up on his contemporaries Cochrane and Dickey.
Hartnett will be a distant second on my ballot. If I had to rate him on the all-time catcher list thus far, he'd probably slide in just behind Cochrane and Ewing.
This came up a while ago... can't recall if it was here or in a news group.
Several of Gabby's Cub teammates also went 0-4 as they did lose in 29,32,35,38,45. No one was on all five of those squads if I recall.
Two players went 0-5 in the WS:
Fred Merkle 11-13,16,18
Rube Marquard 11-13,16,20
As WARP sees it, the NL was the better league in the 1930s. While AL quality held steady at pretty close to WARP's all-time norm through the 1920s and 1930s, the NL in the 1930s was actually a good notch above that norm. The NL's higher level of competition in the 1930s more than balances out its lower level of competition in the 1920s, as WARP sees it at present.
Career by WARP1, 3
Cochrane 88.1 W1, 88.6 W3
Hartnett 103.5 W1, 110.1 W3
TOP 3
Cochrane W1 10.4, 9.4, 9.3, W3 10.6, 9.2, 9.0
Hartnett W1 9.0, 8.8, 8.5, W3 9.7, 9.4, 9.3
By WARP1, Cochrane has the better peak, but by WARP3, they are about even, and Hartnett is much stronger on career on both measures.
I have Hartnett as the #1 catcher, all-time through 1947, counting only eligible players.
He still doesn't rank ahead of Grove, but it's closer than one might have expected.
This is off-Hartnett, but . . .
Karlmagnus, are you predicting that the HoM won't elect Pee Wee Reese, or are you indicating that you don't think he'll be a HoMer?
I ask because it's my sense that Reese will be elected pretty easily when the time comes. I could be way off target, of course.
With WWII credit, he's a cinch as far as I'm concerned.
I also think that Grove is one of the 35 best pitchers ever, Johnson is the only guy I would certainly have above him. Yogi and Bench were both better than Hartnett (I believe, though I have gotten that far ahead), with Piazza, Pudge the younger, and Pudge the elder just about even with him.
So I dont' think I buy that Hartnett should be close to grove because he is ranked higher on the catcher list than Grove is amongst pitchers. You don't have to agree with me, it is just that I think that stance is dependent on a very sunny view of Harnett and a not so sunny view of Grove. Which is fine, I guess.
Still, I expect PeeWee Reese to make my PHoM. However, is he not pretty darn comp to Dave Bancroft? Not sure who I would select in a pinch, though I would guess PeeWee. But when we get to backlog time again, I hope to see Bancroft in the thick of it, too.
You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.
<< Back to main