|
|
Hall of Merit— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best
Thursday, March 22, 2007
|
Support BBTF
Thanks to Darren for his generous support.
Bookmarks
You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.
Hot Topics
Reranking Left Fielders: Results (12 - 12:21am, Feb 04)Last: Chris CobbRanking Right Fielders in the Hall of Merit - Discussion thread (43 - 6:03pm, Feb 03)Last: JaackRanking Left Fielders in the Hall of Merit - Discussion thread (95 - 1:15pm, Feb 03)Last: Rob_WoodReranking Left Fielders Ballot (20 - 3:38pm, Feb 02)Last: Tiboreau2024 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion (53 - 6:06pm, Feb 01)Last: DL from MNJoe Mauer (19 - 8:38pm, Jan 27)Last: Bleed the FreakChase Utley (17 - 7:44pm, Jan 17)Last: Eric J can SABER all he wants to2023 Hall of Merit Election Results (46 - 10:53am, Jan 11)Last: Mark A Shirk2023 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion (375 - 9:11pm, Jan 06)Last:  Bleed the FreakAdrian Beltre (14 - 7:14pm, Jan 06)Last: The Honorable ArdoFred McGriff (38 - 11:55pm, Jan 05)Last: What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face?2023 Hall of Merit Ballot (40 - 10:35pm, Jan 05)Last: Howie MenckelOur Constitution (396 - 7:12pm, Jan 04)Last:  cookiedabookieMost Meritorious Player: 2022 Discussion (29 - 2:38pm, Dec 30)Last: bookbookHall of Merit Book Club (11 - 3:41pm, Dec 16)Last: gehrig97
|
|
Reader Comments and Retorts
Go to end of page
Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.
1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 22, 2007 at 07:48 PM (#2316124)1926 Ballot Discussion
1927 Ballot Discussion
Right Fielder Positional Thread
If you know of any others, please let me know.
1. Pete Browning (879)
2. Elmer Flick (871) *
3. Riggs Stephenson (854)
4. Earle Combs (853) *
5. Tip O'Neill (843)
6. Baby Doll Jacobson (840)
7. Joe Vosmik (839)
8. Ross Youngs (827) *
9. Bibb Falk (826)
10. John Stone (821)
* Hall of Famer
Only three HOFs, and of those, only Flick could be seen as an indisputable choice. Joe Vosmik and John Stone do not immediately come to mind as being directly comparable to Joe Jackson. Perhaps career length (or lack of it) has a major impact on the list?
Jackson played more career games in left field, than right, BTW.
The age 30 comps are interesting. Most guys with a career 170 OPS+ through age 30 play for at least four more years.
Vosmik shows up on that list as well. That's an artifact of the fact that similarity scores don't look at context. Vosmik had an OPS+ of just 105 through age 30 but his career AIR number was 115 (with individual years as high as 123) while Jackson's was 91 (with some years as low as 81).
Yes. Most similar by age (30) -
1. Paul Waner (927)
2. Heinie Manush (904)
3. Tris Speaker (893)
4. Joe Kelley (878)
5. Jesse Burkett (877)
6. Harry Heilmann (876)
7. Ed Delahanty (865)
8. Elmer Flick (860)
9. Fred Clarke (849)
10. Joe Vosmik (846)
31. Howie Menckel Posted: March 16, 2008 at 09:16 PM (#2713905)
"no credit for 1919"
Jackson finishes 3rd in the AL in adj OPS+ behind Ruth and Cobb, with a top 10 in PA as well.
His team wins the pennant by only 3.5 games.
He hits .375 in the World Series (12 for 32) with 6 RBI. (yes, some curious baserunning/fielding, etc, tis said)
From a moral standpoint, do what you want with this guy.
But if we're trying to figure out the greatest baseball players, I don't get it.
That's a spectacular year.
Jackson has one of the better primes we've ever seen (top 5 adj OPS+ for 9 years, virtually all of those trailed are inner-circle HOMers), and I raise the question if voters (in general) angry with the Black Sox scandal are placing him best on his merits.
I believe the devaluation of Jackson's 1919 season is based on the judgment that that pennant is worthless. Although the group conspired to throw only the World Series, people respond by granting no credit to the conspirators for the pennant, and full credit as usual to their teammates.
Chicago White Sox fans do not proudly list 1919 in their email signatures as Red Sox fans list 1975. Beyond leaving the club with a black mark to be glossed over or explained away, 50 and probably 100 years later, other important consequences followed 1919 more immediately. When the scandal broke, it cost the team some probability of winning the 1920 pennant. Perhaps Chicago was still the league's marquee franchise in 1919. It appears that Comiskey spent money to field a strong team in the teens and didn't spend much thereafter.
Jackson moved from Philadelphia to Cleveland as a player to be named later.
He moved from Cleveland to Chicago for a player to be named later, two players named at the time, and $31500. (As I said, Comiskey was spending some money.)
Those were two midseason deals, 1910 July 30 and 1915 August 21.
Chi may or may not have won the pennant without Jackson. They may or may not have won the World Series without him. What if an honest OFer hadn't taken the money; would they have had enough tankers to ensure the guys with the bucks bought in to the deal? So on the balance, I give Jackson no credit (nor a penalty) for 1919; it's like he didn't exist. Of course he DID exist and he played great for 6 months, but I think it's a fair penalty for someone who took money to toss a trophy.
Not only that, but there were rumors that members of the 1920 Sox were still either on the take or susceptible to blackmail, and were therefore trying to manipulate the pennant race. Charles Alexander covers this aspect of the scandal in his recent book Spoke. The truth is impossible to get at, but at the very least it raises questions about Jackson's 1920 (on the face of it, an outstanding season).
Bob D,
Have you read the Tim Gay biography of Speaker as well?
Gay gave one of the best presentations I have seen at a SABR meeting a few years ago, soon after publication. But he is a superb presenter. I have read neither book.
Anyway, what do you think of the Alexander?
You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.
<< Back to main