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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Wednesday, January 04, 2023

Joe Mauer

Eligible 2024

DL from MN Posted: January 04, 2023 at 08:42 PM | 19 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. DL from MN Posted: January 05, 2023 at 10:45 AM (#6111966)
First take has him right around Campanella
   2. cookiedabookie Posted: January 05, 2023 at 11:42 AM (#6111976)
He's a pretty easy yes for me - #224 all time, 13th at C.
   3. bachslunch Posted: January 05, 2023 at 12:41 PM (#6111987)
He’s definitely on ballot for me. The three major newcomers will likely be ranked 1-3: Beltre, Mauer, Utley.
   4. Michael J. Binkley's anxiety closet Posted: January 05, 2023 at 02:00 PM (#6112009)
Mauer will most likely be at the top of the ballot for me. My initial run has him as my #10 catcher all-time.
   5. Jaack Posted: January 05, 2023 at 02:05 PM (#6112010)
Of the three main newcomers, I think Mauer has the most tenuous case. He's qualified and will rank high on my ballot, but he's a bad defensive evaluation away from being closer to the borderline than I would have initially thought.

I agree with DL that Campanella is a broadly similar candidate. Ted Simmons is in the same range as well. His bat is about the same level as Jorge Posada and Ernie Lombardi, but he wasn't the butcher on the base paths that either of those two were.
   6. The Honorable Ardo Posted: January 05, 2023 at 08:17 PM (#6112087)
Mauer, as I recall, was heavily recruited to play college football but chose baseball instead. Any other Hall of Fame/Merit players in that same group?
   7. kcgard2 Posted: January 08, 2023 at 06:57 PM (#6112474)
Plenty of guys in MLB who were recruited to play football, but HOF/HOM level, I'm only coming up with Frank Thomas and Jackie Robinson. Tony Gwynn was recruited for basketball I believe, and Dave Winfield. I think it's not that uncommon, especially in earlier eras.
   8. kcgard2 Posted: January 08, 2023 at 07:30 PM (#6112477)
More basketball/football scholarships: Barry Larkin, Ken Griffey Jr., Scott Rolen, Rickey Henderson, Jim Palmer, Brooks Robinson, Tim Raines, Wade Boggs, Harmon Killebrew, Mickey Mantle, Craig Biggio...

At this point, about 3 out of every 4-5 players I check was a multi-sport standout in high school who got scholarship offers. Stay away from pitchers and it's really quite common.
   9. JJ1986 Posted: January 26, 2023 at 09:20 PM (#6114706)
Todd Helton played college football.
   10. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: January 26, 2023 at 09:32 PM (#6114709)
First take has him right around Campanella


I am now completely failing to find this, but I recently (as in, in the last 5 years -- hello, middle age) read a piece arguing that Campy was basically the Ozzie Smith of catchers, defensively. I assume that's a fringe take? Because, if true, it would probably transform Campanella from borderline HoF mistake to challenging Bench for greatest of all time.
   11. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: January 26, 2023 at 10:15 PM (#6114721)
Tony Gwynn was recruited for basketball I believe, and Dave Winfield. I think it's not that uncommon, especially in earlier eras.

As another example, Kenny Lofton went to Arizona on a basketball scholarship.
   12. Jaack Posted: January 26, 2023 at 10:34 PM (#6114723)
Campy does have a pretty strong rep as a defender, particularly for pitcher handling if I recall. I don't think I've seen him do obscenely well on any WOWY study, but that doesn't mean he wasn't great, just that we don't have anything pointing in that direction. He does have good numbers as far as preventing stolen bases, but steals were very rare in that era, and the two most prolific base stealers were Campanella's teammates.

It would definitely be a fringe take to put Campanella in the company of Johnny Bench. Just for kicks I added 15-20 runs per year to his defense and ran him through my system. That would put him at 5th all time for me... but 3 of the 4 guys he's behind (Bench, Berra, and Carter) also have similarly glowing defensive reps, and would likely move up themselves.
   13. Michael J. Binkley's anxiety closet Posted: January 26, 2023 at 10:53 PM (#6114728)
Campanella actually does really well on the WOWY studies. Max Marchi had him saving 123 runs over his Dodger career and Sean Smith's updated study had him saving 103 runs which is top 20 all-time in his study - Scioscia is the tops at 265 runs saved) over the same timeframe.
   14. Howie Menckel Posted: January 26, 2023 at 11:42 PM (#6114732)

I posted this on another thread here, without comment (because there are various directions to go from this base camp)

694. Howie Menckel Posted: January 25, 2023 at 02:23 PM (#6114436)
SS Ernie Banks and OPS+s, top to bottom - 156-155-149-146-144-136-123-094
C Joe Mauer and OPS+s, top to bottom ---- 171-144-142-140-140-134-118-107

1B Ernie Banks and OPS+s, top to bottom - 118-116-113-110-107-105-094-092
1B Joe Mauer and OPS+s, top to bottom --- 115-107-104-100-098

...............

speaking of other threads, I mentioned the late Gary Peters and his 1963 Topps Rookie Card.
Another one in that year was another White Sox pitcher who had a successful athletic career - Dave DeBusschere.
   15. Jaack Posted: January 26, 2023 at 11:49 PM (#6114733)
Campanella actually does really well on the WOWY studies. Max Marchi had him saving 123 runs over his Dodger career and Sean Smith's updated study had him saving 103 runs which is top 20 all-time in his study - Scioscia is the tops at 265 runs saved) over the same timeframe.


I stand corrected - it looks like I have a misinput on Campanella there.
   16. DL from MN Posted: January 27, 2023 at 10:21 AM (#6114757)
Tony Gwynn was recruited for basketball I believe, and Dave Winfield


Winfield lettered in football, basketball and baseball as a Gopher and was drafted by all 3 professional leagues.
   17. Bleed the Freak Posted: January 27, 2023 at 08:19 PM (#6114827)
 13. Michael J. Binkley's anxiety closet Posted: January 26, 2023 at 10:53 PM (#6114728)
Campanella actually does really well on the WOWY studies. Max Marchi had him saving 123 runs over his Dodger career and Sean Smith's updated study had him saving 103 runs which is top 20 all-time in his study - Scioscia is the tops at 265 runs saved) over the same timeframe.


Where is Sean Smith's updated study / please share : )
   18. Michael J. Binkley's anxiety closet Posted: January 27, 2023 at 08:26 PM (#6114828)
Where is Sean Smith's updated study / please share : )


http://www.baseballprojection.com/special/catcher2020.htm

He has the non-league/park adjusted figures listed on that page, but the figures I use, the league/park adjusted ones are available in a .csv file with the link right above the unadjusted numbers.

He goes back to 1916, so he has the numbers for Dickey/Hartnett/Cochrane/Lombardi, as well as most of Wally Schang's career (Schang does really poorly by these numbers).
   19. Bleed the Freak Posted: January 27, 2023 at 08:38 PM (#6114829)
THANK YOU!

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