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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Monday, November 13, 2017Mock 2018 Modern Baseball Committee Hall of Fame BallotMock 2018 Today’s Game Hall of Fame Ballot Candidates Steve Garvey See full descriptions here Vote for zero to four candidates Voting will end Monday 11/20/2017 at 1pm EST |
BookmarksYou must be logged in to view your Bookmarks. Hot TopicsMost Meritorious Player: 1932 Discussion
(2 - 4:56pm, Sep 30) Last: DL from MN Most Meritorious Player: 1931 Ballot (6 - 9:44am, Sep 28) Last: DL from MN Most Meritorious Player: 1931 Discussion (8 - 9:43am, Sep 28) Last: DL from MN 2021 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion (352 - 12:22pm, Sep 24) Last: John DiFool2 Most Meritorious Player: 1930 Results (4 - 7:56am, Sep 13) Last: Qufini Most Meritorious Player: 1930 Ballot (9 - 9:01am, Sep 10) Last: DL from MN Most Meritorious Player: 1930 Discussion (16 - 7:12am, Sep 06) Last: theorioleway Most Meritorious Player: 1929 Results (8 - 10:22am, Aug 31) Last: DL from MN Ruben Sierra (14 - 6:32pm, Aug 20) Last: Rally Most Meritorious Player: 1929 Ballot (11 - 12:34pm, Aug 07) Last: Qufini Most Meritorious Player: 1929 Discussion (10 - 10:11am, Aug 06) Last: DL from MN Luke Easter (117 - 8:41pm, Jul 22) Last: Jaack Pete Rose (174 - 1:06pm, Jul 14) Last: Bleed the Freak Most Meritorious Player: 1928 Results (3 - 9:11pm, Jul 07) Last: Qufini Most Meritorious Player: 1928 Discussion (19 - 11:34am, Jul 07) Last: DL from MN Syndicate |
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1. DL from MN Posted: November 13, 2017 at 10:37 AM (#5574941)Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Luis Tiant
Alan Trammell
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Luis Tiant
Alan Trammell
Murphy
Simmons
Tiant
Trammell
I would have voted for Miller (and dropped Tiant) but he pretty expressly said he did not want to be inducted posthumously and I'm willing to defer to his desires for my ballot for our imaginary award.
Marvin Miller
Luis Tiant
Alan Trammell
Trammell
That's it; I'm leaving the other two spots blank.
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Alan Trammell
Simmons
Tiant
Trammell
Simmons
Trammell
As far as players, I could make a case that I think I'm comfortable with for at least 5 of the players. But I'm going to go small ballot because I think there's a clear separation below the top two.
Tommy John
Alan Trammell
Tiant
Trammell
Trammell
Simmons
I understand dlf's point, but Hall recognition isn't simply about the player/person being inducted. It sucks that he wasn't around for it, but it shouldn't stop the Hall from fixing that mistake.
I visited Murray Chass's site to see what he had to say about Marvin and the honor, since those two were thick as thieves. The most interesting thing I learned is that he's not nearly as fervent about The Jack's worthiness as he was when Morris was on the BBWAA ballot.
Free agency is kind of a big deal. And that was a great thing for players.
Simmons
Tiant
Trammell
Ted Simmons
Alan Trammell
Miller
Simmons
Tiant
Trammell
Miller - I've never cared much about the HOF cases for non players, but for those who do, what Miller did is pretty significant.
Simmons - He's always been my in/out line for catchers, and it's perfect since he's right at 50 WAR. Since the catchers directly above Simba look like clear HOFers (Cochrane, Hartnett, Dickey), and the guys right behind him feel more like HOVG (Munson, Freehan, Posada), he seems like a good player to define the cut off.
Tiant - Right on my borderline. I actually don't really care one way or the other with him, and my opinion could change depending on the day of the week. Right now I'm feeling generous, I guess.
Trammell - Clearly deserving, and one of the more egregious mistakes (of exclusion) that needs to be fixed.
The others:
Mattingly, Murphy, Parker - HOF caliber players at their peaks, but added virtually nothing of value outside of them. None of them are particularly close, IMO.
Garvey, John, Morris - Just not good enough, IMO, even at their peaks. John is the best, of course, but he took 26 years just to reach the minimum borderline for HOF value. He was never really dominant. In my PHOF he's not as close as lots of people here seem to think. He's basically Johnny Damon if you add 6 more seasons of 1.0 WAR to his career. TJ's wins and innings totals look good, but they're not as impressive as they appear when you consider era. Quite a few pitchers threw a billion innings back in the 70's and lasted long enough to compile impressive wins totals.
Simmons
Tiant
Trammell
Would add John if the ballot were five deep. No on the rest.
Simmons
Tiant
Trammell
Trammell
Miller
Trammell
Simmons
Tiant
Trammell
Jack Morris
Dale Murphy
Dave Parker
Interesting to see Tiant more popular than John so far. If you look solely at John's 1964-1982 years, they are a pretty close match to Tiant's career. John had more hits allowed, fewer strikeouts, but fewer HRs and walks allowed. A little bit better ERA, FIP (but friendlier parks?). And John threw 200 more innings (despite missing that year he took a vacation).
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Alan Trammell
With unlimited ballot space I'd also vote for Murphy and Tiant. Trammell is the class of the player candidates. The rest who'd get my vote--John, Simmons, Murphy & Tiant--are relatively interchangeable for me. I selected John and Simmons since without necessarily counting votes, I know Murphy won't get as much support since this is a saber-friendly crowd and I want to see as many reach 75% as possible in our mock election
Tommy John
Ted Simmons
Marvin Miller
I go back and forth on Tiant, but no one else is super close. I can squint and almost see the case for Morris and Murphy, but Parker, Mattingly, and Garvey are all clear HoVG material.
Beyond that, lots of HOVG plaques.
Without free agency, how many players would have the financial incentives to pursue baseball over other sports that they think they're equally good at when they're 15 or 16?
I think FA is a tremendously important development in baseball history, but I've never believed that the various long-term financial structures of these sports have much of an effect on the decision-making processes of mid-teenagers.
If a serious evaluation of all the long-range factors were considered by these multi-sport athletes, no one would choose football.
Alan Trammell
Ted Simmons
Luis Tiant
Would consider Dale Murphy and Tommy John if allowed more spots.
Dale Murphy
Alan Trammell
Don Mattingly
Marvin Miller
Jack Morris
Dale Murphy
Dave Parker
Ted Simmons
Luis Tiant
Alan Trammell
I'm tempted to inquire how you feel about the Emancipation Proclamation. That wasn't very good for slave owners, and somewhat similarly, Marvin Miller & the MLBPA may have had a negative impact on the owners' net worth, but why should that be a criteria for Hall of Fame consideration? Miller brought some economic fairness, free agency, and arbitration to the game, while thwarting the owners repeated, short-sighted efforts to squash the MLBPA. When virtually every Commissioner and numerous general managers seem to be deemed "worthy" of the Hall of Fame, the omission of Miller strikes me as a petty and vindictive act by those that he repeatedly bested at the negotiating table and in the courts.
Tommy John
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Alan Trammell
Ted Simmons
Alan Trammell
As I said right before what you quoted what Miller did "was of great historical significance". My only question, really, is, in a world where the Reserve Clause still exists, is Major League Baseball a worse product? I'm not anti-Miller or anti-MLBPA. I'm more anti- putting non-players in the Hall of Fame with a bit of an exception for managers and probably Branch Rickey. Obviously, Bowie Kuhn is a ridiculous HOF inductee by that standard. But in the same way we don't induct every center fielder better Lloyd Waner (although I'll make a Hall-of-Fame case for Al Bumbry if you'd like me to), we can't realistically use Bowie Kuhn as our non-player standard (a standard which Marvin Miller easily clears).
But if I shouldn't care about the "negative impact on the owners' net worth", why should I care about the positive impact on the players' net worth? Why should anybody's net worth matter in a Hall-of-Fame debate? Except for Jack Morris's of course. The fact that he was once the highest-paid pitcher in baseball is obviously a key component of his Hall-of-Fame case.
Andy in #30 has a good answer. That's fair.
Free agency created a domino effect that allowed players to make enough money that playing baseball could become a full-time occupation for all major leaguers - I remember players having off-season jobs. According to this, the minimum salary in 1975 was $16,000 - about what my dad made as a mailman (and trust me, it wasn't very much back then).
EDIT: I would not vote for Miller, given his wishes. My ballot:
Ted Simmons
Luis Tiant
Alan Trammell
That's a good point. Thank you.
Dale Murphy
Dave Parker
Alan Trammell
We should note here with all the "HOVG's" floating around that it's categorically untrue that, at their best, Murphy and Parker were only "very good" players. It's only in a "What did they compile?" sense that they fall into that classification and the Hall of Fame is not a WAR compilation tournament.
As to Marvin Miller, free agency would have come to baseball with or without him on virtually the same timetable -- and it came to pro basketball even earlier. I wouldn't really object to him, but in a ballot of four, there's no way I'd list him over a great player like a Dave Parker.
Length of dominance has been heavily considered in HOF elections since the beginning; waaaaay before WAR was ever created. You can find non HOFers from every era that played like HOFers for a few years (except maybe the 1920's and 1930's, since the Frisch era VC decided to induct seemingly everyone that ever won 20 games or had a .300 season).
Mattingly, Murphy, and Parker were routinely rejected by the vast majority of the BBWAA before any of them knew what WAR was.
Edit: You also listed John and Morris as guys you'd personally vote for; what makes them HOFers if compiled numbers shouldn't matter? That's all they've got.
Tiant - - and I really vacillate on this decision.
Simmons
Tiant
Trammell
As covered at length, Morris had prolonged periods of greatness in higher-leverage games -- yes, they exist -- and a HOF level of playing ability and was a definitive staff ace. And Game 7 -- which, yes, he gets a big dose of extra credit for. Sorry, but that was a more important and influential game than his stinker in a meaningless game on the penultimate day of the 1983 season. Any system that treats the two identically -- and, hell, there are some that would say that the regular season game was more important (*) -- isn't worth the pixels it's written on.
John gets extra credit for the surgery -- at least as influential and ground-breaking as anything Marvin Miller ever did -- and that gets him over my bar.
(*) LOLOL.
Simmons
Tiant
Trammell
Not voting for Miller because of his request.
Miller
Simmons
Trammell
would also vote for Murphy and Tiant if no ballot limit
Ted Simmons
Alan Trammell
Murphy
Tiant
Trammell
with Simmons a very close #5 but just missing out
Tiant
Trammell
Murphy
Simmons
Trammel
-- MWE
Morris
Simmons
Trammell
Ted Simmons
Alan Trammell
Ted Simmons
Alan Trammell
Luis Tiant
Alan Trammell
Simmons
Trammell
[Whitaker write in]
Miller
Simmons
Trammel
I think FA is a tremendously important development in baseball history, but I've never believed that the various long-term financial structures of these sports have much of an effect on the decision-making processes of mid-teenagers.
If a serious evaluation of all the long-range factors were considered by these multi-sport athletes, no one would choose football.
Well, that assumes a lot about the sophistication of high school jocks, especially in the 70's when free agency arrived, and even more especially when you consider that even then there were many thousands of college scholarships being offered to high school football and basketball players, and virtually none to baseball players.
It also doesn't factor in the overwhelming cultural significance of high school football and basketball, and the invisibility of most high school baseball teams---and again, this was even more obvious in the 70's. I played on a DC championship high school baseball team in the 60's that drew at most a couple of hundred curiosity seekers for home games, none of whom showed up when we won the city championship that was played about 15 minutes away from our high school. By contrast, our consistently mediocre football team regularly filled our stadium, and scores of students would travel for road games, even when some of those road games were played in "bad" parts of DC. Those were the sorts of factors that affected the sport choices of multi-sport high school athletes, not any rational consideration of long term injury prospects.
Trammell
Tiant
Simmons
Marvin Miller
Alan Trammel
Ted Simmons
Dale Murphy
Alan Trammel
Miller
Simmons
Trammel
Seriously?
LOL.
Dave Parker
Dale Murphy
Ted Simmons
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Alan Trammell
I'd add Tiant if I could.
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Alan Trammell
Simmons(my favorite player of all time....one who I didn't originally think was a hofer, until I started hanging around the Rob Neyer board)
Trammell(an obvious hofer in my opinion)
Tiant(iffy but over the line)
Miller(even if I don't like the guy, his influence on the modern game is undeniable---if Sutter is in for the split finger, then Miller clearly belongs)
I'm reading the thread as I go...
okay....
Miller
Simmons
Tiant
Trammell
Tiant
Trammell
I'd vote for Miller, but he said he didn't want to be elected posthumously and I think that should be respected.
Tommy John
Marvin Miller
Jack Morris
Alan Trammell
Funny thing with John is he missed about a year and a half with his famous surgery. If he had been healthy during that time he would be well over 300 wins and would have been elected by the BBWAA years ago. Solid pitcher (occasionally great) from the mid 60's until the early 80's.
Miller had a larger impact on the game then some commissioners. I don't buy the argument that it would have happened anyway with or without him. Miller was in the position to change the game and did so.
Morris is hurt by advanced metrics but he was a legitimate staff ace for about 11 years whose career ERA was impacted by some below average years at the end. Close but pushed over the edge by being dominate in not only 91 series but also 84 (2-0; 1.17 ERA that year).
Nothing I can say about Trammell that hasn't already been said in this discussion. He should have been in a while ago.
Considered Murphy too but these 4 have better cases.
Don't be concerned if it seems like you're not getting much acknowledgement from anyone. Your posts are being read, and your opinions are being valued (unless it turns out you're an idiot, then people will still read your posts, but they'll be shaking their heads sadly), it's just that unless you accidentally (or purposefully...if you're one of those posters) post something controversial, you shouldn't expect much of a response. But keep at it though, it can be a lot of fun participating.
Miller
Trammell
Simmons
Tiant
Trammell
Dale Murphy
Ted Simmons
Alan Trammell
Jack Morris
Dave Parker
Luis Tiant
Have no problem with anyone getting in except for Miller, and could easily see myself voting for the rest of the 9.
I have 1 criteria for whether or not I vote for non players, who contributed zero wins. Did he improve the game of baseball? higher tickets prices, strikes, teams falling apart just when they get good, and a union that brought about the steroids era says no way, though after Selig got in he won't be the worst non player in the hall. This is the baseball hall of fame not the union hall of fame, I see a much better case for Thomas Edison, giving baseball night games, screen time, and audio recordings. Before Miller came along the owners were raking it in (like they aren't now), but fans could afford games, count on an entire season, and not have their team broken apart by the highest bidder. If he gets in because people he made into multimillionaires are voting him in, I see this as no different than Frankie Frisch putting in Jesse Haines, except that Haines did win 210 games and have a some hall of fame quality seasons.
Luis Tiant
Alan Trammell
Marvin Miller
Tommy John
Luis Tiant
Alan Trammell
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