BBTF's Hall of Merit Discussion :: Mock 2020 Modern Baseball Ballot

Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Monday, November 11, 2019

Mock 2020 Modern Baseball Ballot

Candidates

Dwight Evans
Steve Garvey
Tommy John
Don Mattingly
Marvin Miller
Thurman Munson
Dale Murphy
Dave Parker
Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker

See full descriptions here

Vote for zero to four candidates

Voting will end Friday 11/15/2019 at 2pm EDT. To make tallying easier please vote in the order above (alphabetical).

DL from MN Posted: November 11, 2019 at 04:13 PM | 64 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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Reader Comments and Retorts

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1. DL from MN Posted: November 11, 2019 at 04:19 PM (#5900395)

Dwight Evans
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker

2. Rob_Wood Posted: November 11, 2019 at 04:56 PM (#5900405)

Dwight Evans
Lou Whitaker

3. The Yankee Clapper Posted: November 11, 2019 at 05:09 PM (#5900409)

Marvin Miller
Thurman Munson
Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker

4. Howie Menckel Posted: November 11, 2019 at 05:32 PM (#5900414)

Dwight Evans
Dave Parker
Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker

5. Kiko Sakata

Posted: November 11, 2019 at 05:41 PM (#5900419)

Dwight Evans
Tommy John
Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker

I'm not opposed to Marvin Miller, but left him out partly due to the voting cap and partly in deference to his apparent stated wishes to not be considered after his death. Were I on the actual committee, I'd be willing to vote for Miller if it looked like he had enough support to be elected. I could probably also be persuaded to swap out somebody and vote for Dale Murphy or Thurman Munson if they had significant support (and one or more of my candidates did not). I'm kind of borderline on both of them - in my mind, there's a clear step down from my top 4 to the next tier. But they're strong enough candidates that I wouldn't necessarily want to be the guy who kept them out. On the other hand, I would be much more okay with being the guy who kept Steve Garvey out of the Hall of Fame, for example.

6. sanny manguillen Posted: November 11, 2019 at 06:10 PM (#5900426)

Dwight Evans
Tommy John
Lou Whitaker

7. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: November 11, 2019 at 06:15 PM (#5900427)

Evans
Miller
Simmons
Whitaker

8. The Duke Posted: November 11, 2019 at 06:58 PM (#5900430)

Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker
Marvin Miller

9. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: November 11, 2019 at 07:30 PM (#5900435)

Evans
Miller
Simmons
Whitaker

10. Jaack Posted: November 11, 2019 at 07:39 PM (#5900439)

Tommy John
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker

Evans is a perfectly acceptable pick as well.

While I understand Miller's wishes to not be elected posthumously, I think the Hall of Fame is first and foremost a historical museum, and Miller is an important part of baseball history.

11. bjhanke Posted: November 11, 2019 at 08:01 PM (#5900441)

(Marvin Miller)
Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker

12. John DiFool2 Posted: November 11, 2019 at 08:34 PM (#5900450)

Dwight Evans
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker

13. Space Force fan Posted: November 11, 2019 at 08:42 PM (#5900454)

Dwight Evans
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker

14. QLE Posted: November 11, 2019 at 09:33 PM (#5900467)

Marvin Miller
Thurman Munson
Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker

15. Qufini Posted: November 11, 2019 at 09:44 PM (#5900471)

Miller
Munson
Simmons
Whitaker

16. eric Posted: November 11, 2019 at 09:44 PM (#5900473)

Dwight Evans
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker

17. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: November 11, 2019 at 10:13 PM (#5900491)

Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker

18. Booey Posted: November 11, 2019 at 10:21 PM (#5900494)

Dwight Evans
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker

19. vortex of dissipation Posted: November 12, 2019 at 02:45 AM (#5900522)

Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker

20. bachslunch Posted: November 12, 2019 at 08:04 AM (#5900527)

Dwight Evans
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker

21. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: November 12, 2019 at 08:36 AM (#5900531)

Dwight Evans
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker

22. Rally Posted: November 12, 2019 at 09:20 AM (#5900539)

Dwight Evans
Thurman Munson
Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker

23. Bourbon Samurai stays in the fight Posted: November 12, 2019 at 09:42 AM (#5900541)

Marvin Miller
Thurman Munson
Lou Whitaker

24. cookiedabookie Posted: November 12, 2019 at 10:33 AM (#5900559)

Thurman Munson
Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker
Dwight Evans

Miller was cut because there's four guys I want to vote for, and his family has stated they won't attend the ceremonies. But he does belong.

25. Baldrick Posted: November 12, 2019 at 11:06 AM (#5900570)

Dwight Evans
Thurman Munson
Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker

26. cookiedabookie Posted: November 12, 2019 at 11:18 AM (#5900575)

removed tally - I will post at the end - DL

27. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: November 12, 2019 at 11:31 AM (#5900578)

Miller
Simmons
Whitaker

I'm surprised at how close I came to putting Munson on that list. I'm still not 100% sure that I should have left him off. One thing that I'm getting hung up on is that through 2019, Buster Posey is basically a Munson clone, and it seems obvious that Posey hasn't put together a HOF resume yet. Posey trails Munson by about 4 WAR, they're almost identical by WAA (Posey actually leads by tenths of a point). Munson trails Simmons by 4 WAR, but both Posey and Munson lead him in WAA. I think that I see value in punching the clock, and so Simmons gets the vote. You could probably talk me into Munson also, but only if you can also talk me into voting for the through-2019 (or maybe through-2020) version of Posey.

28. kcgard2 Posted: November 12, 2019 at 12:56 PM (#5900592)

Evans
Miller
Simmons
Whitaker

29. ajnrules Posted: November 12, 2019 at 03:05 PM (#5900612)

Tommy John
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker

30. Moeball Posted: November 12, 2019 at 03:55 PM (#5900634)

1. Whitaker
2. Simmons
3. Evans
4. Miller

31. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: November 13, 2019 at 08:39 AM (#5900755)

Dwight Evans
Tommy John
Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker

32. Carl Goetz Posted: November 13, 2019 at 09:27 AM (#5900773)

Dwight Evans
Thurman Munson
Lou Whitaker
Marvin Miller

Ted Simmons is an easy yes in my opinion, but he's behind the other 3 players for me so I can't vote for him. I'm borderline on Tommy John, but he's not on my radar for this vote anyway. If I could vote for unlimited number of these guys, I'd add Simmons for sure and I'd have to think long and hard on John. I'm a strong "out" on the rest of the players.

33. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 13, 2019 at 02:20 PM (#5900912)

Tommy John
Thurman Munson
Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker

34. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: November 13, 2019 at 02:20 PM (#5900913)

Evans
Miller
Munson
Whitaker

35. The Mighty Quintana Posted: November 13, 2019 at 02:24 PM (#5900915)

Miller
Whitaker

(Grich!)

36. DanG Posted: November 13, 2019 at 02:37 PM (#5900919)

Dwight Evans
Thurman Munson
Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker

Would vote for Miller if I had another vote. Given the controversy, I'll pass this time. Tommy John is also a good choice.

37. Bleed the Freak Posted: November 13, 2019 at 03:53 PM (#5900932)

With at least 6 worthies, I will take the alive so that they can hopefully enjoy:

Dwight Evans
Tommy John
Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker

38. Where have you gone Brady Anderson? Posted: November 13, 2019 at 05:50 PM (#5900973)

Dwight Evans
Tommy John
Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker

39. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: November 13, 2019 at 08:02 PM (#5900989)

Dwight Evans
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker

Real tough to leave Munson off the list, but couldn't talk myself into leaving Miller off.

40. Dennis Eclairskey, closer Posted: November 14, 2019 at 08:18 AM (#5901027)

Dwight Evans
Dale Murphy
Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker

41. Rusty Priske Posted: November 14, 2019 at 09:03 AM (#5901039)

Marvin Miller
Dale Murphy
Dave Parker
Lou Whitaker

With another vote, Simmons. With another, Evans. With another John.

42. Rusty Priske Posted: November 14, 2019 at 09:05 AM (#5901041)

#30 can't read instructions.

I am also a little surprised at the ballots with less than four names, but there are some 'incredibly small hall' proponents out there.

43. Esoteric Posted: November 14, 2019 at 11:18 AM (#5901096)

Dwight Evans
Tommy John
Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker

44. Esoteric Posted: November 14, 2019 at 11:20 AM (#5901097)

All the votes for Miller here are kind of sad. I'm not sure he ever deserved to be in the Hall of Fame (he's a labor negotiator, he never played or managed or owned a team or worked in a front office or whatever), but he certainly shouldn't go in against his express wishes.

45. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: November 14, 2019 at 12:08 PM (#5901117)

Empty ballot. I wouldn't vote for any of these guys.

46. Rusty Priske Posted: November 14, 2019 at 12:31 PM (#5901125)

but he certainly shouldn't go in against his express wishes.

That shouldn't be the job of the voters. The voters should select the people who deserve induction. If the family wishes to decline the induction, that would be their right.

47. Fiore Gino Posted: November 14, 2019 at 11:20 PM (#5901300)

Dewey Evans
Thurman Munson
Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker

48. The Run Fairy Posted: November 15, 2019 at 01:11 AM (#5901317)

Simmons
Whitaker

49. Fridas Boss Posted: November 15, 2019 at 08:24 AM (#5901332)

Dwight Evans
Marvin Miller
Ted Simmons
Lou Whitaker

50. Michael J. Binkley's anxiety closet Posted: November 15, 2019 at 08:31 AM (#5901336)

Dwight Evans
Marvin Miller
Thurman Munson
Lou Whitaker

51. DL from MN Posted: November 15, 2019 at 12:55 PM (#5901450)

Election is almost over....

52. DL from MN Posted: November 15, 2019 at 02:03 PM (#5901476)

Election is over, I will just post results here rather than having a separate thread.

53. DL from MN Posted: November 15, 2019 at 02:08 PM (#5901478)

BBTF would elect Lou Whitaker and Ted Simmons to the Hall of Fame

Player Name VOTES Percentage
Lou Whitaker 44 98%
Ted Simmons 36 80%
Dwight Evans 30 67%
Marvin Miller 28 64%
Thurman Munson 13 30%
Tommy John 9 23%
Dale Murphy 2 4%
Dave Parker 2 4%
Steve Garvey 0 0%
Don Mattingly 0 0%
  
NumVoters 45

54. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 15, 2019 at 03:15 PM (#5901503)

I count two votes each for Murphy and Parker.

55. DL from MN Posted: November 15, 2019 at 04:36 PM (#5901536)

Thanks, I missed a ballot

56. DL from MN Posted: November 15, 2019 at 04:37 PM (#5901537)

I am glad to see Whitaker and Simmons chosen but I also feel Dwight Evans is undoubtedly qualified.

57. cookiedabookie Posted: November 18, 2019 at 10:48 AM (#5901969)

Whitaker and Simmons make sense, and I suspect they will be inducted in real life as well. Evans with a good showing - I don't think he will do as good in real life. And I still think Munson is underrated - It would be interesting to see how the results would change without the four vote limit.

58. Carl Goetz Posted: November 19, 2019 at 10:39 AM (#5902273)

When does the mock writers ballot start?

59. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 19, 2019 at 10:53 AM (#5902282)

but I also feel Dwight Evans is undoubtedly qualified.

He's a tough one. WAR says he is, but the other stats don't. A 127 OPS+ is just not impressive for a corner OF.

If you look at the career leader board, most of the HoFers around him are catchers. Dickey 127, Bench 126, Bresnahan, Lombardi 126, Berra 125.

He feels like a HoVg guy that just played a little longer than most guys of his talent level.

60. cookiedabookie Posted: November 19, 2019 at 11:59 AM (#5902318)

A 127 OPS+ is just not impressive for a corner OF

He's 87th all time in batting runs, just behind HoFers Al Simmons and Fred Clarke, just ahead of HoFer Roberto Clemente. It seems like he had plenty of value offensively to be a HoFer, without taking into account his defensive value (especially in the first half of his career).

Evans big stumbling block is he is two different players in his career - the decent bat/great glove guy in his twenties, and the great bat/mediocre glove guy in his thirties. A better version of Luis Gonzalez, if you will.

61. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 19, 2019 at 12:49 PM (#5902345)

He's 87th all time in batting runs,

And tied for 212th in OPS+. He had a very long career.

62. DL from MN Posted: November 19, 2019 at 01:06 PM (#5902365)

It hurts Evans that his best season happened in 1981 during the strike. He's the best player in the American League that year.

63. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 19, 2019 at 01:10 PM (#5902366)

It hurts Evans that his best season happened in 1981 during the strike. He's the best player in the American League that year.

Sure. But even if we scale his '81 to 155 games, his peak in WAR is 9.5, 6.4, 1.2, 5.4, 4.1, 4.4, 4.8.

That's good, but not Wow! good.

64. cookiedabookie Posted: November 19, 2019 at 02:47 PM (#5902401)

And tied for 212th in OPS+. He had a very long career.

Among players with 3000 or more PA - which is not a lot, and not enough for a HoF career. That's a pretty disingenuous use of rankings. What about among guys with 8000+ PA (anything below that is hard to reach HoF levels)? He's tied for 86th - seems right on.

If you want to argue he wasn't great, merely very good/almost great for a long time, and somehow that's not HoF worthy, fine. But it is an accomplishment to put up a 127 OPS+ over 10000+ PA. Only 44 guys have done it, and 34 are HoFers. Those that aren't yet in the Hall include two active players (Pujols and Cabrera), two not yet eligible (A-Rod and Ortiz), one on the ballot for the first time this year (Abreu), three PED cases (Bonds, Palmiero, Sheffield), a guy most expect to be inducted on the next modern game committee in 2022 (McGriff), and Dwight Evans.

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