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Thursday, October 19, 2023

Mock Hall of Fame Discussion Thread: Contemporary Baseball - Managers, Executives and Umpires 2023

Cito Gaston
Davey Johnson
Jim Leyland
Ed Montague
Hank Peters
Lou Piniella
Joe West
Bill White

DL from MN Posted: October 19, 2023 at 12:19 PM | 15 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. DL from MN Posted: October 19, 2023 at 12:26 PM (#6144894)
Joe West? Seriously?
   2. Bleed the Freak Posted: October 19, 2023 at 02:37 PM (#6144913)
Joe West? Seriously?

West would be the worst HOFer of all-time, I remind folks that he's the only person I'm aware of to insight Andre Dawson to go nuts.

Dan Roan's 1991 style is back in vogue in 2023!

Davey Johnson yes
Lou Piniella and Jim Leyland maybe
   3. Howie Menckel Posted: October 19, 2023 at 03:27 PM (#6144915)
in the 1980s, Sid Fernandez was the most fly ball-centric pitcher in baseball history (still is, I think) - not that the metrics to prove it were yet available.

the Mets tended to have an excess of solid hitters in that era - but SS Rafael Santana was not one of them.

but who needs a good defensive SS when El Sid is pitching?

so starting in 1986, Johnson would routinely play Howard Johnson at SS during those starts - adding a power bat to a good lineup and sacrificing nearly nothing defensively, given the lack of activity for the SS.

just one tiny example of Johnson's brilliance. I use that word because not enough managers have enough self-confidence to make an adjustment that fellow managers would not make. to him, it was obvious and had to be done.
   4. Jaack Posted: October 19, 2023 at 06:58 PM (#6144938)
My lukewarm to blazing hot take is that if the Hall is going to consider umpires... you kind of have to give Joe West a lookover. He's obnoxious and overstayed his welcome, but the same could be said about Tony LaRussa. If he'd been the exact same guy but retired in 1935, he'd be a fun legend.

For actual votes, Davey Johnson is the only guy I'd consider a decent choice.
   5. cookiedabookie Posted: October 20, 2023 at 01:05 PM (#6145036)
Davey Johnson, Bill White for sure. Maybe Leyland and Pinella. But it's a pretty meh ballot. Honestly, the non-player ballot should extend to the entirety of baseball history, and include pioneers.
   6. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 20, 2023 at 03:17 PM (#6145044)
For me the easiest choice is Peters, but I'd also take Johnson.
   7. kcgard2 Posted: October 20, 2023 at 03:18 PM (#6145045)
I think I'd vote for no one from this list. Johnson, Leyland, Piniella, or White would be weak but I guess not outrageous. That's a bit of a step up from the bar the Hall has set for itself recently, so there is that.
   8. bachslunch Posted: October 21, 2023 at 08:17 PM (#6145248)
Agreed, this is a pretty weak ballot. I’d vote for Lou Pinella, Bill White, and Jim Leyland here.

Both managers are fringe candidates, but reasonable choices. Pinella is the better of the two, plus he has a league average level playing career that Leyland lacks.

White is essentially a combo candidate like Red Schoendienst or Frank Chance or Gil Hodges — a Hall of the Very Good type player, not really good enough for the Hall of Fame in that capacity but helped by another attribute. In White’s case, it’s administrative based, and it’s enough for me.

Electing Joe West would be a level of egregious horribleness to rival Highpockets Kelly or Harold Baines or Rube Marquand. He was a terrible ump who somehow managed to remain employed forever. Davey Johnson was a better player than Pinella, but lacks in manager-based numbers. Cito Gaston isn’t that good as a player and the weakest manager candidate of the bunch. I guess I can understand liking Hank Peters as a candidate — not sure how he stacks up to other HoF GMs, though. I could probably be convinced with the right argument. Not sure why Ed Montague stands out from other umpire candidates — are there any obvious snubs in this category? I can’t think of any.
   9. bachslunch Posted: October 22, 2023 at 09:19 AM (#6145291)
Here’s a list I found of top 25 GMs in history, dating from 2015. No idea how good it is:

1. Branch Rickey
2. Pat Gillick
3. Ed Barrow
4. Bob Howsam
5. George Weiss
6. John Schuerholz
7. Buzzy Bavasi
8. Harry Dalton
9. Dave Dombrowski
10. Frank Cashen
11. Billy Beane
12. Sandy Alderson
13. Al Campanis
14. Brian Sabean
15. Walt Jocketty
16. Theo Epstein
17. Dan Duquette
18. Joe L. Brown
19. Lee MacPhail
20. Cedric Tallis
21. Brian Cashman
22. Jim Campbell
23. John Hart
24. John Quinn
25. Andy MacPhail

Hank Peters isn’t on the list, though that may be an oversight.
   10. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: October 22, 2023 at 04:18 PM (#6145303)
How high would Dombrowski be on this list if the Phils win this year?

   11. kcgard2 Posted: October 22, 2023 at 04:27 PM (#6145305)
That seems awfully high for Sandy Alderson?
   12. bachslunch Posted: October 23, 2023 at 05:36 AM (#6145353)
The GMs from this list in the HoF are Rickey, Gillick, Barrow, Weiss, Schuerholz, and L. MacPhail. I’m thinking Howsam, Bavasi, Beane, Dombrowski, Epstein, Jocketty, and Cashman might have the strongest cases of those not in.
   13. Posada Posse Posted: October 28, 2023 at 03:19 PM (#6145790)
Joe West holds the record for most games umpired with 5460, breaking HOF umpire Bill Klem's record. Not that I endorse him as a candidate, but that stat probably ensures his eventual induction, although that would be the equivalent IMO of inducting a worse version of Jesse Orosco.....
   14. DL from MN Posted: October 28, 2023 at 11:20 PM (#6145829)
Joe West holds the record for most games umpired with 5460, breaking HOF umpire Bill Klem's record. Not that I endorse him as a candidate, but that stat probably ensures his eventual induction, although that would be the equivalent IMO of inducting a worse version of Jesse Orosco.....

Or inducting the Tribune Company as an owner
   15. Srul Itza Posted: October 30, 2023 at 08:23 PM (#6145952)
I like Davey Johnson, Lou Piniella and Jim Leyland. But none of them really have enough as managers or as players, or combined, to make we want to vote for them. I compare them in my mind to Dusty Baker, and I think he edges them all out on both counts.

That said, they would not be the worst choices I have ever seen (Joe West would be the worst).

Cito Gaston is in a tier further down -- negative WAR, and while he has 2 WS wins, he only managed 13 years, and 5 of those were partial years.

I have no opinion on the other 3, though I do have a soft spot for Bill White.

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