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Wednesday, December 01, 2021

Most Meritorious Player: 1895 Discussion

No World Series yet so no postseason consideration.

Player			BBR WAR
Hughie Jennings		7.5
Ed Delahanty		6.9
Billy Hamilton		6.1
Sam Thompson		6.0
Jesse Burkett		5.3
Bill Lange		5.4
Mike Griffin		5.6
Joe Kelley		5.9
Willie Keeler		5.3
Jake Stenzel		5.3
John McGraw		5.2
Jack Clements		4.2
Deacon McGuire		5.0
George Davis		4.5
Ed Cartwright		4.3
Ed McKean		4.4
Jake Beckley		4.0
Mike Tiernan		4.3
Hugh Duffy		4.2
Dusty Miller		3.2
Roger Connor		3.6
Bid McPhee		2.8
Bill Joyce		4.1
Bill Dahlen		2.2
Steve Brodie		3.0

Frank Grant		No statistics
Grant Johnson		No statistics

Pitcher			BBR WAR
Cy Young		12.0
Pink Hawley		10.0
Kid Nichols		9.9
Clark Griffith		8.6
Amos Rusie		6.7
George Cuppy		7.8
Ted Breitenstein	8.8
Bill Hoffer		8.2
Dad Clark		5.1
Adonis Terry		5.3
Al Maul			4.8
Jack Taylor		4.7

 

DL from MN Posted: December 01, 2021 at 11:43 AM | 12 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. DL from MN Posted: December 01, 2021 at 12:17 PM (#6055558)
I'll hold the election at the end of January. December will be full of Hall of Merit and mock Hall of Fame voting.

1895 Prelim
1) Hughie Jennings - replacement level for SS is low this season. Good glove
2) Pink Hawley - 444 innings pitched
3) Ed Delahanty - best hitter
4) Cy Young - Hawley had more innings and a better bat. Young was the better pitcher by rate stats
5) Sam Thompson
6) Jesse Burkett
7) Kid Nichols
8) Bill Lange
9) Mike Griffin
10) Joe Kelley

11-15) Billy Hamilton, Willie Keeler, Jake Stenzel, John McGraw, Jack Clement

Frank Grant is my best 2B
   2. kcgard2 Posted: December 01, 2021 at 05:58 PM (#6055670)
1895 prelim

1) Cy Young
2) Pink Hawley - this was a hard choice, because a 74 inning difference seems so valuable on the surface. But Hawley gave up a TON of unearned runs, 1.7 per nine innings. Cy Young gave up 1.0 per nine, which along with park factors allowed him to have 2 more pitching WAR in those 74 fewer innings. The difference between them on pitching is 74 innings of 65 runs allowed - a 7.91 RA over those extra innings, which is below replacement. Hawley was 1.4 wins better with the bat, but it doesn't make up the 2 WAR from pitching.
3) Kid Nichols - also a ton of unearned runs, but paired with a poor bat instead of a good one
4) Hughie Jennings
5) Ed Delahanty
6) Billy Hamilton
7) Sam Thompson - how do you choose between him and teammate Hamilton? Can I call them each 6.5?
8) George (Nig) Cuppy
9) Clark Griffith - these two are again extremely close, both played in tough parks, lots of unearned runs as per the norm, both (identically) good hitters, both even had identical records at 26-14, and the only difference between them in WAR is that Griffith played in front of a bad defense and Cuppy in front of a good one. My tiebreaker here is ERA+ and FIP, both favor Cuppy.
10) Joe Kelley

11-15) Amos Rusie, Willie Keeler, Jesse Burkett, Mike Griffin, Bill Lange

Lots of close races in this season on ballot placement.
   3. DL from MN Posted: December 02, 2021 at 10:02 AM (#6055822)
The adjustments done by DanR for innings pitched narrow the gap between Hawley and Young.

Pitcher DERA PWAA2 BWAA2 REP WARP2
Hawley 3.40 4.4 0.1 -3.8 8.3
Young 3.03 5.2 -0.7 -3.1 7.6
   4. bjhanke Posted: December 06, 2021 at 03:49 AM (#6056344)
Hi, DL. I apologize for not submitting a 2021 ballot, but I don't know of any resource that has Win Shares for last year. For 1895, I have a complete list. Also, if I find stats for the Temple Cup for 1895, can I use those as post-season?
   5. bjhanke Posted: December 06, 2021 at 04:55 AM (#6056345)
What the heck. Why wait for Temple Cup numbers to appear (they are not in BB-Ref, at least anywhere I can find), when I can just put up a ballot now, and maybe revise it later. DL - This is my official ballot, unless I post up a correction later. You can transfer it to the Ballot Thread when that one opens.

Player - Position - Team - Win Shares
1. Pink Hawley - p - PIT - 44
2. Cy Young - p - CLE - 37
3. Jesse Burkett - OF - CLE - 35
4. Bill Hoffer - p - BAL - 35
5. Kid Nichols - p -BOS - 34
6. Clark Griffith - p - CHI - 34
7. Nig Cuppy - p - CLE - 33
8. Ed Delahanty - OF - PHI - 31
9. Sliding Billy Hamilton - OF - PHI - 30
10. Hughie Jennings - SS - BAL - 29

Notes:

1) I randomly picked Jennings from a group of Bill Lange and Mike Griffin. No good reason, and they are tied in WS.
2) Until I did this, I had never even heard the name "Bill Hoffer." He turns out to be a three-season wonder. Hoffer's first 3 seasons are great; he was the ace of the Baltimore staff, despite being a kid, and pitched over 300 IP every year, with very good ERAs and great W/L. The workload finally got to him, and by the time he was a fourth-year player, his arm was gone. He was out of the league in short order. It's amazing that, when you read about the Orioles, all they want to write about is the position players. You almost never read about a pitcher, and, as I said, I have never even read the name "Bill Hoffer" before, anywhere.
   6. MrC. Posted: December 06, 2021 at 10:56 AM (#6056366)
1895 prelim Ballot

1. Pink Hawley 9.34 WARR Young was the better pitcher, but Hawley's batting was almost 1.5 WARR above Young.
2. Cy Young 8.31 WARR
3. Ed Delahanty 7.86 WARR
4. Billy Hamilton 7.72 WARR
5. Ted Breitenstein 7.42 WARR
6. Hugh Jennings 7.19 WARR
7. Bill Lange 7.18 WARR
8. Kid Nichols 6.45 WAR
9. Jesse Burkett 6.62 WARR
10, Sam Thompson 6.53 WARR

Rest of top 15
11. Mike Griffin
12. George Cuppy
13. John McGraw
14. Amos Rusie
15. Bill Hoffer
   7. DL from MN Posted: December 06, 2021 at 11:23 AM (#6056373)
Anyone have a New York Times subscription?

https://www.nytimes.com/1895/10/03/archives/for-the-temple-cup-cleveland-wins-the-first-of-the-series-with.html
   8. DL from MN Posted: December 10, 2021 at 11:46 AM (#6056887)
Illinois newspaper archive

(Box Scores omitted but available at the original source, spelling errors due to OCR, also info on Harry Wright's funeral at that link)

Cleveland Wins Three Games and Baltimore Takes One

Cleveland vs Baltimore. The first game of the Temple Cup series, best four In seven, was played Oct, 2 , at Cleveland, the Clevelands winning , after a close and exciting finish . It was a pitcher s battle , ln wblch Young canted off the honors For four innings not a run was made on either side , so superbly did both men pitch . In the fifth, however, the Clevelands began to bunch their hits, and scored the lst run of the game , and from tbat until the winning run was made, ln the ninth Inning , with only two men out , the contest was replete with hard and scientific hitting, while the game was marked throughout by phenomenal fielding. When the Baltlmores forged ahead, In the eighth Inning, it looked like certain defeat for the home team , but, the latter went in and tied the score on their half of the Inning , and the excitement , reached the highest pitch . In the ninth the Baltlmores added another run to their credit , and the local enthusiasts began-to lose hope , as one run was needed to tic and two to win , which seemed almost Impossible to make ; but then Clevelands greeted McMahon with a fusillade of hits , and batted in two runs , amidst the enthusiastic shouts of seven thousand people. The batting and fielding of McKean , the lime ) , batting of lllake and the excellent work of Jennings as short were the features.

Tbe Clevelands won again on Oct . 3 , when they made enough runs In tho first inning to give them a victory . Tliu Baltlmores Imd no chance to win at any stage . Cuppy pitched great , ball , holding the champions down to live safe hits , two of these being of the scratch order . He had great speed nnd excellent control over tlio ball . Holler was hit hard at times , but tbe home team were only able to hunch their hits In the llrst and sixth innings . Burkett led in balling . His four hits Included a double bagger . The other long safe hits were double bagSera by Zimmer , McUarr and Cuppy . Tho Cleveinds started otr like winners lu the llrst , Inning , wbeu tbey scored tliree runs oir Burketl s single , a wild pitch by llolfei and McKeau s single , the latter taking second on the throw to the plait , lo catch Burkett , who scored on the hit . Childs sacrificed , Bending McKean to third . McAleer was hit with a pitched ball . Tebeau scuta high lly to Keeler , and McKean scored , McAleer going to second on the throw ln . / . Initner lilt for two bases und McAleer scored . Baltimore scored a run In the second inning ou a combination of hits and errors . Tbe visitors scored again in the slxlli Inning on a couple of bits and an out . The Clevelands Increased their lead by adding singles in the lirth and seventh Innings and two in llio sixth inning . The bulling of Burkett and tlte Ueldlng of Jenutngsuud McKean were features .

The Baltlmores scored their llrst victory lu the aeries on Oct . 7 , when the scene ot action was shifted to Baltimore , Md . More than ten thousand people witnessed the game , and tho . enthusiasm was unbounded—so much so . that , some of the rougher element oifered Indignities to the visitors . The trouble begun with a crowd of roughs , who gathered about the hotel , nml jeered and hooted Ihe visiting players tieforo they lelt forthe ball grounds . Finally , the feeling grew so Intense that eggs and rocks were thrown at ihem . Three of Hie stone throwers were arrested , and lined $ r . each and costs . After reaching the park thoy were hissed by a portion of the crowd , but this was frowned upon liy tho majority , and there were no further attempts ¦ tl Insult during the gamo . The home learn took a lead early iu llio gamo , aud easily held it throughout . It was a pitchers luttlle , lu which Ksper had the belter of It . Cuppy , though a bit wild in his delivery , held the local team down to nine hits . These , however , came at opportune times , while the live made by the visitors wcre scattered and not productive or runs . The fielding on lioth sides was almost perfect , an error by tllcusoa being the onlv Ueldlng chance that was not accepted . Jointing s led In batting . Ills three lilts included a double nagger . The only other long salo hit . was a double bagger by Carey . Tliu bailing of Jennings and the Ueldlng of Childs wore features.

I oople at Cleveland , <> ., have gone baseball mad since the team took secoud place in the major league race . Throughout the season thero was an unexpluinalile apathy , both in attendance and enthusiasm . This was reversed during the Temple Cup series of games , especially since Cleveland has won the llrst three games . The plavers never knew they had so many friends ; everybody Is Interested ln giving them testimonials of their esteem . During the three games , Oct . 2 , a , o , many valuable presents were made . Manager Oliver Tebeau was the recipient of a * 2 fa < i diamond ring . Jesse Burkett , now champion batsman of the major league , received a diamond studded medal and a valuable shotgun . Pitcher Cy Young received a shotgun , Catcher Chas . Zlinnier a diamond studded K . of P . badge and cutf lmt tons , Pitcher Geo . Cuppy a floo Parker hammerless gun aud iKiuquct of Howen * , and Shortstop Ed McKean a firm diamond ring . The others all received presents of lesser value . Taking Hall In all , the end this year has been the most auspicious since Cleveland has had a club , and , if all signs fail not , lt la sure to bear fruit In the way of Increased attendance aud enthusiasm next , season . In other words , Clevelanders are just beginning to realize tlmt . they have a ball team par excellence .
   9. DL from MN Posted: January 06, 2022 at 06:11 PM (#6060046)
Back to our next election
   10. Michael J. Binkley's anxiety closet Posted: January 07, 2022 at 11:45 AM (#6060155)
1895 MMP preliminary ballot:

1. Cy Young ($33.26M salary estimator)
2. Pink Hawley (28.69)
3. Ed Delahanty (22.50) - MMPosition Player
4. Hughie Jennings (21.93)
5. Kid Nichols (21.56)
6. George Cuppy (21.03)
7. Bill Hoffer (20.73)
8. Clark Griffith (18.39)
9. Billy Hamilton (17.04)
10. Bill Lange (16.75)

11-15. Sam Thompson, John McGraw, Joe Kelley, Mike Griffin, Jesse Burkett.

1895 mWAR All-Stars:

c - Jack Clements
1b - Ed Cartwright
2b - Bid McPhee
3b - John McGraw
ss - Hughie Jennings
lf - Ed Delahanty
cf - Billy Hamilton
rf - Sam Thompson

sp - Cy Young
sp - Pink Hawley
sp - Kid Nichols
   11. HAWK Posted: January 24, 2022 at 12:49 PM (#6062248)
1) Hughie Jennings – 7.5 WAR, Best fielding shortstop, Best non-outfield hitter, 143 OPS+, 200+ hits, Regular Season Champion
2) Cy Young – 11.6 WAR, 35 Wins, 152 ERA+, 3.95 FIP, Best fielding pitcher
3) Pink Hawley – 11.1 WAR, 31 Wins, 143 ERA+, 4.19 FIP
4) Kid Nichols – 9.5 WAR, 27 Wins, 146 ERA+, 4.05 FIP
5) Ed Delahanty – 6.9 WAR, Best hitter, 186 OPS+, .404 BA, .500 OBP, .617 SLG, solid fielder
6) Sam Thompson – 6.0 WAR, 176 OPS+, .654 SLG, 200+ hits, 352 TB
7) George Cuppy – 8.5 WAR, 26 Wins, 140 ERA+, 4.27 FIP, excellent fielding pitcher
8) Bill Hoffer – 7.9 WAR, 31 Wins, 149 ERA+, 4.81 FIP
9) Billy Hamilton – 6.1 WAR, 153 OPS+, 200+ hits, 97 SB
10) Burkett, Jesse – 5.3 WAR, 152 OPS+, .405 BA, 225 hits
   12. DL from MN Posted: February 02, 2022 at 01:54 PM (#6063504)
https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/pink-hawley/

Interesting reading. Pink's twin brother Blue was his catcher growing up.

The twins were known as the Pink and Blue battery and both appeared to have bright futures as Blue was every bit as talented as his twin. But Blue’s life was cut short by pneumonia in 1891.

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