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Monday, February 28, 2022

Most Meritorious Player: 1897 Discussion

No World Series yet so no postseason consideration.

Player			BBR WAR
Hughie Jennings		7.3
Willie Keeler		7.1
George Davis		6.9
Jimmy Collins		5.3
Fred Clarke		6.6
Napoleon Lajoie		5.2
Joe Kelley		5.1
Ed Delahanty		5.7
Jesse Burkett		4.2		
Bobby Wallace		4.2
Cupid Childs		3.7
Billy Hamilton		4.9
John McGraw		4.4
Hugh Duffy		4.1
Kip Selbach		4.5
Bill Dahlen		2.7
Mike Griffin		4.4
Heinie Reitz		3.4
George Van Haltren	3.1
Chick Stahl		3.0
Jake Stenzel		3.8
Jack Doyle		3.7
Deacon McGuire		2.6
Mike Tiernan		3.1
Perry Werden		3.7
Monte Cross		3.5
Bill Lange		3.7
Bill Joyce		3.7		

Frank Grant		No statistics
Grant Johnson		No statistics

Pitcher
Kid Nichols		10.7
Amos Rusie		8.0
Ted Breitenstein	7.6
Cy Young		7.4
Win Mercer		4.2		
Jimmy Callahan		4.0
Clark Griffith		4.6
Brickyard Kennedy	4.2
Frank Dwyer		4.9
Billy Rhines		4.9
Joe Corbett		4.8
Jerry Nops		4.7
Jouett Meekin		3.7
Bert Cunningham		3.1
George Cuppy		3.9
Jack Powell		5.9

 

DL from MN Posted: February 28, 2022 at 05:56 PM | 6 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. DL from MN Posted: February 28, 2022 at 06:03 PM (#6066459)
1897 Prelim

1) Hughie Jennings - good glove, very low SS replacement value
2) Willie Keeler - best hitter
3) George Davis
4) Jimmy Collins - great glove
5) Kid Nichols - bulk innings are not impressing in Dan R's WAR
6) Fred Clarke - 2nd best bat
7) Amos Rusie - only two pitchers really stand out this season
8) Napoleon Lajoie
9) Joe Kelley
10) Ed Delahanty

11-15) Jesse Burkett, Bobby Wallace, Frank Grant, Cupid Childs, Billy Hamilton
16-20) John McGraw, Ted Breitenstein, Hugh Duffy, Kip Selbach, Bill Dahlen
   2. kcgard2 Posted: March 04, 2022 at 01:38 PM (#6066750)
1897 prelim

1) Kid Nichols
2) Hughie Jennings
3) Willie Keeler
4) George Davis
5) Fred Clarke
6) Cy Young
7) Amos Rusie
8) Ed Delahanty
9) Ted Breitenstein
10) Jimmy Collins

11-15) Joe Kelley, Billy Hamilton, Nap Lajoie, Clark Griffith, Jesse Burkett
   3. Harmon Ripkowski Posted: March 06, 2022 at 04:48 PM (#6066827)
Quick question, everyone. Much of my online baseball reading involves baseball-reference, fangraphs, billjamesonline, baseball prospectus, baseball player won-loss records, sabr bioproject, hall of miller and eric, cooperstown cred, espn, seamheads, and, of course, this one. In fact, some of those I learned about from reading this site. That being said, are there more sites I could surf to get more of a look, both historically and analytically, of players and their accomplishments?
   4. Harmon Ripkowski Posted: March 06, 2022 at 05:01 PM (#6066830)
This is my very early 1897 prelim

1 - Kid Nichols
2 - Hughie Jennings
3 - Willie Keeler
4 - Amos Rusie
5 - George Davis

6 - Fred Clarke
7 - Ted Breitenstein
8 - Jimmy Collins
9 - Billy Hamilton
10 - Nap Lajoie


Take those last four with Childs and Delahanty and throw them in a hat. It's hard to differentiate them. That's the crazy thing about making these lists. Who I have number twelve is essentially as good as number seven, but a decision must be made, which gives some players points and others none. It's one heck of a challenge.
   5. bjhanke Posted: March 07, 2022 at 08:25 PM (#6066983)
Here's Brock Hanke's ballot for 1897. It's a list of Win Shares, as usual. I still don't know nearly enough to even identify the best black player out there at that time, much less compare him to the white guys, so I have no black guys on the list. I would be happy to vote for a black guy, if I only knew which one to choose.

1897 is an interesting year. Keeping track of Win Shares, as I've been doing, allowed me to see that the drift ("trend" is a badly overworked word right now) of the game's top players was in the direction of smaller deviations between the top guys and the mass. In 1897, I could only find 6 players with 30 or more WS. That's the least I've found, and it's just the result of a drift in that direction that had been going on for years. But we will never have a chance to see how that drift would have turned out, because 1897 is also the last year of the 132-game schedule. The schedule had been 154 games in 1892, but in 1893, along with changing the playing field conditions for pitchers, the Powers that Were dropped the schedule down to 132 games. 1897 here is the last year of the 132 games; in 1898, the schedule will revert to 154 games. In 1900, it will drop down to 140 games, and then there is the American League, which changes everything.

OK, I'll shut up. Here's the list:

1. Kid Nichols (41 Win Shares)
2. Ted Breitenstein (34)
3. Wee Willie Keeler (32)
4. George Davis (31)
5. Amos Rusie (34)
6. Fred Clarke (30)
7. Hughie Jennings (29)
8. Sliding Billy Hamilton (28)
9. Cy Young (28)
10. Jimmy Collins (26)
   6. HAWK Posted: March 17, 2022 at 05:34 PM (#6068206)
1) Kid Nichols – 11.1 WAR, 31 Wins, 168 ERA+, 3.53 FIP, solid fielding pitcher, Regular Season Champion
2) Willie Keeler – 7.1 WAR, 164 OPS+, .424 BA, 239 hits
3) Hughie Jennings – 7.3 WAR, Best fielding shortstop, 146 OPS+
4) Nap Lajoie – 5.2 WAR, 155 OPS+, 127 RBI, Best non-outfield hitter
5) George Davis – 6.9 WAR, 144 OPS+, 135 RBI, excellent fielder
6) Jimmy Collins – 5.3 WAR, 128 OPS+, 132 RBI, excellent fielder, Regular Season Champion
7) Fred Clarke – 6.6 WAR, 166 OPS+, 205 hits
8) Ed Delahanty – 5.7 WAR, 161 OPS+, excellent fielder
9) Amos Rusie – 8.3 WAR, 28 Wins, 163 ERA+, 3.63 FIP, solid fielding pitcher
10) Bobby Wallace – 4.2 WAR, 127 OPS+, 112 RBI, excellent fielder

11) Joe Kelley – 5.1 WAR, 147 OPS+, 118 RBI
12) Jesse Burkett – 4.2 WAR, 140 OPS+
13) Hugh Duffy – 4.1 WAR, 128 OPS+, 129 RBI, Regular Season Champion
14) Cy Young – 6.7 WAR, 21 Wins, 123 ERA+, 3.58 FIP, solid fielding pitcher
15) Theodore Breitenstein – 7.9 WAR, 23 Wins, 125 ERA+, 3.77 FIP, solid fielding pitcher

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