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Tuesday, April 05, 2022

Most Meritorious Player: 1898 Discussion

No World Series yet so no postseason consideration.

Player			BBR WAR
Hughie Jennings		7.5
John McGraw		7.1
Jimmy Collins		6.9
Bill Dahlen		5.7
Billy Hamilton		4.6
Gene DeMontreville	5.0
Ed Delahanty		6.2
Willie Keeler		4.5
Bobby Wallace		4.7
Napoleon Lajoie		3.7
Dan McGann		5.2
Elmer Flick		4.9
Lave Cross		4.5
Bill Lange		3.9
Joe Kelley		3.8
Elmer Smith		4.2
Jimmy Ryan		4.3
Mike Grady		2.3
Hugh Duffy		3.3
Lou Criger		3.0
Monte Cross		2.1
Chick Stahl		3.1
Bill Joyce		4.3
Jesse Burkett		4.2
George Davis		3.9
George Van Haltren	3.7
Honus Wagner		3.5
Kip Selbach		3.9	
Fred Clarke 		3.8

Frank Grant		4 games of statistics
Grant Johnson		No statistics

Pitcher
Clark Griffith		10.7
Kid Nichols		10.8
Cy Young		6.7
Jesse Tannehill		6.6
Al Maul			7.4
Bert Cunningham		7.0
Doc McJames		8.1
Amos Rusie		4.3
Ted Lewis		6.4
Pink Hawley		5.9
Jack Powell		5.8
Vic Willis		5.1
Frank Dwyer		4.4
Wiley Piatt		4.5
Ted Breitenstein	4.1
Cy Seymour		3.0

 

DL from MN Posted: April 05, 2022 at 10:27 AM | 7 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. DL from MN Posted: April 05, 2022 at 11:30 AM (#6070399)
1898 Prelim

1) Hughie Jennings - 3rd season in a row at the top of my ballot
2) John McGraw
3) Jimmy Collins
4) Clark Griffith - top two pitchers are very close
5) Kid Nichols
6) Bill Dahlen
7) Billy Hamilton
8) George DeMontreville - baseball player with a name like a feudal lord
9) Frank Grant
10) Cy Young

11-15) Ed Delahanty, Willie Keeler, Bobby Wallace, Napoleon LaJoie, Dan McGann
16-18) Jesse Tannehill, Elmer Flick, Al Maul
   2. bjhanke Posted: April 06, 2022 at 12:04 AM (#6070487)
This is Brock Hanke's ballot for 1898, as usual, a list of Win Shares. I note that my ballot does not closely resemble DL's. I'm not completely sure why. My personal opinion of 1898 is that the pitchers were still too dominant for the best three players to be position players. That's my opinion; DL obviously does not agree. That's fine; we're different people with different analytical systems. We OUGHT to not agree every so often.

One fun note about 1898 that I foreshadowed lsat "year." In 1897, there were only 6 players in the game who posted up 30 or more Win Shares (in the Win Shares method, 30 WS is a nominating level for the MVP). Here in 1898, there were 12, exactly twice the 1897 number. Why? The schedule expanded. In 1897, baseball was working with a schedule length of 132 games. In 1898, that got raised to 154. In neither season did all, or even most, of the teams play the whole schedule, but the highest number of games in 1897 is in fact 132 (Boston, Brooklyn, Chicago, Cincinnati, Philadelphia, and Washington played the full schedule). In 1898, the highest number of games played was 152, by Cincy and Washington. That's interesting to me because I am trying to figure out whether or not modern baseball, with 30 teams and 162 games, suppresses individual great players to the extent that they seldom turn in great years (30+ WS), or whether the schedule forces more 30+ guys because there is more opportunity. If someone here has done this research already, or knows of someone who has done it, I'd appreciate a comment here leading me to that person.

OK, enough of my obsessions. Here's the list, with the Win Shares number for the player in parentheses after the name:

1. Kid Nichols (44 WS)
2. Jimmy Collins (34)
3. Cy Young (34)
4. Jesse Tannehill (34)
5. Sliding Billy Hamilton (33)
6. Big Ed Delahanty (33)
7. Hughie Jennings (32)
8. Clark Griffith (32)
9. Ted Lewis (31)
10. John McGraw (31)

Doc McJames and Bert Cunningham each had 30 WS.
   3. DL from MN Posted: April 06, 2022 at 09:59 AM (#6070510)
Yes, we are using very different systems. They still find mostly the same players to put at the top, just is a slightly different order. The point of the project is to gather the different perspectives and average them out. It's harder for everyone to be wrong than for any one of us to be wrong individually.
   4. DL from MN Posted: April 06, 2022 at 10:15 AM (#6070517)
FYI - I've been using the exact same "average" performance number for Frank Grant for this whole decade. He's 32 in 1898 and probably ready for a decline after this season. His stats (in 4 games) are pretty solid on Seamheads (.438/.471/.500).

https://www.seamheads.com/NegroLgs/player.php?playerID=grant01fra
   5. kcgard2 Posted: April 06, 2022 at 05:14 PM (#6070608)
1898 prelim:

1) Kid Nichols
2) Clark Griffith
3) Hughie Jennings
4) John McGraw
5) Doc McJames
6) Cy Young
7) Jimmy Collins
8) Ed Delahanty
9) Bill Dahlen
10) Jesse Tannehill

11-16) Dan McGann, Gene deMontreville, Billy Hamilton, Elmer Flick, Willie Keeler, Bert Cunningham
   6. HAWK Posted: April 11, 2022 at 09:09 PM (#6071214)
1) Jimmy Collins – 6.9 WAR, 140 OPS+, 15 HR, 111 RBI, Best non-outfield hitter, excellent fielder, Regular Season Champion
2) Kid Nichols – 11.2 WAR, 31 Wins, 174 ERA+, 3.06 FIP, Regular Season Champion
3) Clark Griffith – 10.5 WAR, 24 Wins, 192 ERA+, 2.99 FIP
4) Hughie Jennings – 7.5 WAR, 149 OPS+
5) Nap Lajoie – 3.7 WAR, 137 OPS+, 127 RBI, excellent fielder
6) Doc McJames – 7.5 WAR, 27 Wins, 153 ERA+, 2.99 FIP
7) Billy Hamilton – 4.6 WAR, 162 OPS+, Regular Season Champion
8) Ed Delahanty – 6.2 WAR, 156 OPS+, excellent fielder
9) John McGraw – 7.1 WAR, 148 OPS+
10) Cy Young – 7.3 WAR, 25 Wins, 136 ERA+, 2.84 FIP, excellent fielding pitcher

11) Bill Dahlen – 5.7 WAR, 123 OPS+, excellent fielder
12) Lave Cross – 4.5 WAR, Best fielding 3rd Baseman, 114 OPS+
13) Honus Wagner – 3.5 WAR, 115 OPS+, 105 RBI
14) George Davis – 3.9 WAR, Best fielding shortstop, 112 OPS+
15) Bobby Wallace – 4.7 WAR, 108 OPS+, 99 RBI, excellent fielder
16) Al Maul – 7.8 WAR, 20 Wins, 172 ERA+, 3.33 FIP
17) Jesse Tannehill – 7.4 WAR, 25 Wins, 121 ERA+, 2.97 FIP
18) Elmer Flick – 4.9 WAR, 156 OPS+
19) Jimmy Ryan – 4.3 WAR, 143 OPS+
20) Willie Keeler – 4.5 WAR, 136 OPS+, 216 hits
   7. Harmon Ripkowski Posted: May 02, 2022 at 01:08 AM (#6074750)
1898 Preliminary

1 - Kid Nichols
2 - Clark Griffith
3 - Hughie Jennings
4 - John McGraw
5 - Doc McJames

6 - Jimmy Collins
7 - Cy Young
8 - Ed Delahanty
9 - Gene DeMontreville
10 - Dan McGann


Really not sure about the order or placement of pitchers after number one. Bill Dahlen and Elmer Flick could also place. Maybe Al Maul...

Still thinking about it.

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