User Comments, Suggestions, or Complaints | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertising
Page rendered in 0.3506 seconds
41 querie(s) executed
You are here > Home > Hall of Merit > Discussion
| ||||||||
Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Monday, July 27, 2015Most Meritorious Player: 1908 DiscussionThe Cubs beat Detroit again in the World Series. Player SH WS BBR WAR Honus Wagner 56.7 11.5 Napoleon Lajoie 35.3 7.9 Roger Bresnahan 26.8 5.9 Joe Tinker 33.0 7.9 Matty McIntyre 33.0 5.9 Tyrus Cobb 35.4 6.1 Mike Donlin 31.1 6.0 Tommy Leach 29.7 4.8 Hans Lobert 32.3 5.1 Art Devlin 23.5 4.3 Fielder Jones 32.6 4.8 Sherry Magee 25.5 4.7 Johnny Evers 29.3 5.6 Johnny Kling 22.9 3.9 Fred Clarke 27.8 4.8 Bobby Wallace 21.7 6.3 George Stovall 21.8 4.2 Doc Gessler 24.9 4.6 Sam Crawford 31.5 5.1 Al Bridwell 23.3 4.6 Hobe Ferris 20.1 4.0 George McBride 16.5 4.5 George Stone 26.4 4.1 Bill Dahlen 16.0 5.2 Joe Delahanty 13.7 1.2 John Titus 22.4 3.0 Frank Chance 20.8 3.7 Red Murray 25.6 3.8 Gabby Street 11.0 2.8 John Henry Lloyd Pete Hill Pitcher SH WS BBR WAR Christy Mathewson 38.9 11.2 Ed Walsh 45.7 10.5 Cy Young 26.9 10.0 George McQuillan 33.1 9.2 Mordecai Brown 30.8 8.1 Addie Joss 31.5 8.4 Eddie Plank 17.0 7.1 Hooks Wiltse 24.9 6.7 Nap Rucker 23.5 5.7 Kaiser Wilhem 22.5 5.5 Bugs Raymond 21.4 5.3 Ed Reulbach 24.6 5.6 Walter Johnson 18.5 5.6 Rube Vickers 20.2 6.1 Rube Foster |
BookmarksYou must be logged in to view your Bookmarks. Hot Topics2020 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion
(361 - 4:58am, Dec 16) Last: Rob_Wood Mock Hall of Fame Ballot 2020 Results (7 - 2:24pm, Dec 13) Last: Ivo Shandor Mock Hall of Fame Ballot 2020 (45 - 3:32pm, Dec 12) Last: DL from MN Andruw Jones (31 - 12:13pm, Dec 08) Last: Bleed the Freak Most Meritorious Player: 1922 Discussion (11 - 4:49pm, Dec 05) Last: DL from MN Most Meritorious Player: 2019 Results (3 - 6:17pm, Dec 04) Last: Carl Goetz Most Meritorious Player: 2019 Ballot (14 - 4:02pm, Dec 04) Last: DL from MN Bobby Abreu (13 - 2:26pm, Dec 04) Last: DL from MN Marvin Williams (35 - 9:39am, Dec 02) Last: Carl Goetz Don Newcombe (108 - 3:40pm, Nov 29) Last: Dr. Chaleeko Elston Howard (49 - 3:30pm, Nov 29) Last: Dr. Chaleeko Silvio Garcia (24 - 3:25pm, Nov 29) Last: Dr. Chaleeko Carlos Moran (71 - 3:22pm, Nov 29) Last: Dr. Chaleeko Luke Easter (113 - 3:14pm, Nov 29) Last: Dr. Chaleeko Bus Clarkson (234 - 3:13pm, Nov 29) Last: Dr. Chaleeko |
|||||||
About Baseball Think Factory | Write for Us | Copyright © 1996-2014 Baseball Think Factory
User Comments, Suggestions, or Complaints | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertising
|
| Page rendered in 0.3506 seconds |
Reader Comments and Retorts
Go to end of page
Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.
1. DL from MN Posted: July 27, 2015 at 04:57 PM (#5007477)By a country mile.
1) Honus Wagner - 9 BWAA, next best is Cobb with 6. I have Wagner worth as much as #8 and #9 combined
2) Christy Mathewson - incredibly effective this season
3) John Henry Lloyd - By far the best hitter in black baseball this season. Good SS also
4) Napoleon Lajoie - ridiculously good fielding numbers
5) Ed Walsh - tons of innings
6) Cy Young
7) Roger Bresnahan - C bonus
8) Joe Tinker
9) Rube Foster - best black pitcher, good hitting year also
10) George McQuillan - good year for pitchers
11-15) Mordecai Brown, Matty McIntyre, Ty Cobb, Mike Donlin, Tommy Leach
16-22) Hans Lobert, Pete Hill, Art Devlin, Addie Joss, Fielder Jones, Sherry Magee, Eddie Plank
And yet, the Pirates didn't win the pennant - the Cubs squeaked it out in a razor-close 3-way race.
Weird WAR-fueled thought experiment: What if the Pirates had traded Wagner and their several sub-replacement first basemen to the Cubs for Tinker and Chance? The WAR suggestion is that that might have slightly favored the Pirates. Such is the damage caused by having a hole in your lineup. (And Tinker wasn't exactly shabby.)
Wagner had the highest SLG in either league by nearly 70 points, and the highest SLG in the NL by a full 100 points. He slugged .542. Cobb, the leader of the AL, was at .475; Donlin was 2nd in the NL at .452. And yet Wagner is credited with 14 sacrifices for the year - which would be unimaginable in our times for such a player.
To be fair, several other Pirates had quite a few more sacrifices than that.
(Brock: you made me look up a name or two just to figure out what you were talking about. Which turned out to be the World Series.)
I don't think that's really a deficit at catcher. Gibson played 143 games, which is pretty extraordinary, and his OPS+ of 78 wasn't all that bad by the standards of catchers. It's just that the two teams they had to beat had conspicuous strengths at catcher. Bresnahan played 140 games himself, with an OPS+ of 138 (note that DL's prelim puts Bresnahan in the top 10) and Kling played 126 games with an OPS+ of 119, and the Cubs had a decent backup as well.
But agreed that one outfield spot was subpar, and they had a serious problem at 1B.
1) Honus Wagner
2) Ed Walsh
3) Christy Mathewson
4) Mordecai Brown
5) George McQuillan
6) Cy Young
7) Addie Joss
8) Ty Cobb
9) Nap Lajoie
10) Matty McIntyre
:-)
Easily the most dominating season we have seen so far for this project.
With almost no leveraging to speak of: 6 starts against the Senators, 5 each against the Indians, White Sox, and Tigers, 4 each against the other three teams.
On the other hand, Mordecai Brown's starts, in order of decreasing opponent's record:
Giants 6
Pirates 6
Phillies 5
Reds 3
Doves 8
Superbas 1
Cardinals 2
Pfiester's:
Giants 8
Pirates 6
Phillies 3
Reds 1
Doves 4
Superbas 5
Cardinals 0
Overall's:
Giants 2
Pirates 2
Phillies 4
Reds 4
Doves 4
Superbas 4
Cardinals 7
and Reulbach's:
Giants 4
Pirates 3
Phillies 6
Reds 6
Doves 5
Superbas 7
Cardinals 4
You can see some of the impacts from leveraging there.
-- MWE
Wagner 1908 25.4
Wagner 1907 20.9
Wagner 1906 20.1
Lajoie 1901 20.1
Wagner 1905 20.0
Lajoie 1904 20.0
Waddell 1902 19.6
Lajoie 1906 19.3
Stone 1906 18.2
Cy Young 1901 17.8
Devlin 1906 16.9
Wagner 1902 16.6
Wagner 1903 16.3
Lajoie 1903 16.0
Wagner 1901 16.0
Wagner 1904 15.8
Mathewson 1905 15.6
Seymour 1905 15.5
Turner 1906 15.2
Cy Young 1902 15.0
Mathewson 1908 15.0
Wagner has 9 of the top 16 seasons and 4 of the top 5.
1. Honus Wagner, SS, Pittsburgh Pirates: even more dominant than 1907, 205 OPS+ leads the league by 50 points
2. Christy Mathewson, P, New York Giants: 168 ERA+ in league-leading 390 innings
3. George McQuillan, P, Philadelphia Phillies: 157 ERA+ is 3rd in NL, 359 IP are 2nd
4. Mike Donlin, RF, New York Giants: a nice comeback season, 2nd in OPS+ and RC
5. Roger Bresnahan, C, New York Giants: top ten offensive numbers from the man in the mask
6. Mordecai Brown, P, Chicago Cubs: 160 ERA+ is 2nd in NL though 312 IP barely crack the top ten
7. Joe Tinker, SS, Chicago Cubs: one of the great defensive seasons of all-time (+23 fielding runs) to go with a 119 OPS+
8. Johnny Evers, 2B, Chicago Cubs: 144 OPS+ is good for 4th, +6 fielding
9. Hans Lobert, 3B, Cincinnati Reds: a butcher with the glove (-10 fielding) but most teams will take a 143 OPS+ at third
10. Kaiser Wilhelm, P, Brooklyn Superbas: probably regretting that nickname now
1. Addie Joss, P, Cleveland Naps
2. Ed Walsh, P, Chicago White Sox
3. Cy Young, P, Boston Red Sox: dominant pitching from the big 3; Joss' 1.16 ERA is good for a 204 ERA+; Walsh's 464 IP are paired with a 162 ERA+; and some guy named Cy Young had a 1.26 ERA for a 193 ERA+
4. Napoleon Lajoie, 2B, Cleveland Naps: holds off Ty Cobb as the best position player due to still superior defense
5. Ty Cobb, RF, Detroit Tigers
6. Sam Crawford, CF, Detroit Tigers
7. Matty McIntyre, LF, Detroit Tigers: the three Tiger outfielders are 1st, 3rd and 4th in OPS+
8. Doc Gessler, RF, Boston Red Sox: 2nd in OPS+ with 163 but trails the Detroit trio due to position (RF) and fielding (0)
9. Harry Howell, P, St. Louis Browns: sneaks into the top ten in both ERA+ and IP
10. Bobby Wallace, SS, St. Louis Browns: stellar defense (+17 fielding runs) and a better-than-usual bat (112 OPS+)
1. Honus Wagner, SS, Pittsburgh Pirates: even more dominant than 1907, 205 OPS+ leads the league by 50 points
2. Addie Joss, P, Cleveland Naps: Joss' 1.16 ERA is good for a 204 ERA+
3. Ed Walsh, P, Chicago White Sox: Walsh's 464 IP are paired with a 162 ERA+
4. John Henry Lloyd, SS, Philadelphia Giants: a 231 OPS+; 10.2 Win Shares nearly double the next position player
5. Christy Mathewson, P, New York Giants: 168 ERA+ in NL-leading 390 innings
6. Cy Young, P, Boston Red Sox: 1.26 ERA is good for a 193 ERA+
7. Napoleon Lajoie, 2B, Cleveland Naps: holds off Ty Cobb as the best position player in the AL due to still superior defense
8. Ty Cobb, RF, Detroit Tigers: leads the AL in OPS+ with 169 and RC with 100
9. George McQuillan, P, Philadelphia Phillies: 157 ERA+ is 3rd in NL, 359 IP are 2nd
10. Mike Donlin, RF, New York Giants: a nice comeback season, 2nd in OPS+ and RC
11. Sam Crawford, CF, Detroit Tigers
12. Roger Bresnahan, C, New York Giants
13. Mordecai Brown, P, Chicago Cubs
14. Charles Earle, P, Brooklyn Royal Giants
15. Joe Tinker, SS, Chicago Cubs
16. Matty McIntyre, LF, Detroit Tigers
17. Bill Monroe, 3B, Brooklyn Royal Giants
18. Johnny Evers, 2B, Chicago Cubs
19. Hans Lobert, 3B, Cincinnati Reds
20. Doc Gessler, RF, Boston Red Sox
I can get behind Lobert as a comp for Bill Monroe.
Rube Foster versus Charles Earle for best pitcher is going to take more analysis for me. Unearned runs appear to be a big issue in the accounting. Foster's ERA looks pretty nice but there are 10 unearned runs.
Rube Foster RA: 3.50
Charles Earle RA: 3.64
Foster strikes out more but also walks more. Foster had an .821 OPS and Earle's was .730. Foster has about half the recorded playing time of Earle but I don't know if he was hurt or they just had fewer games recorded. It looks like Foster is a little better but it's close and the unearned runs drop Foster off my ballot.
Looking ahead, Foster's 1910 looks great.
It looks like it's a question of recorded games rather than injury. Earle played for the Brooklyn Giants who were part of the National Association of Colored Professional Clubs, which was the closest thing to a league at the time. Brooklyn has 31 recorded games, second to the Philadelphia Giants. Meanwhile, Foster played for the Chicago Leland Giants in 1908 as pitcher/manager. The Leland Giants were an independent barnstorming team, though they do have 21 recorded games, ahead of one of the Association teams. Considering that Foster started 28.5% of Leland's record games (6 of 21), you have to figure he would have gotten 2-3 more starts if the schedules were even. That doesn't mean he would have sustained the same level of success, but it is worth considering.
It's also worth noting that Foster broke his leg in 1909 and missed a big chunk of that season. If he had sustained a serious injury in 1908 as well, that would have probably been recorded.
2. John Henry Llyod
3. Ed Walsh
4. Christy Mathewson
5. Nap Lajoie
6. Ty Cobb
7. Cy Young
8. Addie Joss
9. Sam Crawford
10. Joe Tinker
11-15 . Pete Hill, Mordecai Brown, Rube Foster, Charles Earle, Art Devlin
Also, Chris (#22) seems to be talking about Pop Lloyd in 1908, responding to Grandma (#21), who is talking about Lloyd in 1907. What those years look like to me is the very earliest part of a young superstar kid on the way up. It's very reasonable to think that Lloyd might have gained a huge amount between 1907 and 1908. - Brock Hanke
In that same year, Ed Walsh had 40 wins, 42 CG, 11 shutouts and 6 saves for a team with 88 wins and a team OPS+ of 87. The White Sox lost the pennant on the final day of the season in great part because their manager refused to start his second best pitcher due to an ongoing disciplinary dispute that had gone on for months.
Addie Joss had better rate stats than Walsh, but also pitched 139 fewer innings. No way he contributed more value to the Naps than Walsh did to the Hitless Wonders.
And Honus at 34 has a season for the ages. Ties with Cal's 1991 for the best WAR season by a SS ever. Third best in history by an IF, trailing only Hornsby 24 and Gehrig 27.
My prelim. The usual blend of WAR systems. No adjustments. No NL players yet but from afar I'm betting Lloyd makes it.
1-The Flying Dutchman-Because who doesn't like a SS with a 205 OPS+?
2-Matty
3-Gettysburg Ed
4-Tinker
5-Nap
6-McQuillan (Tied with Nap)
7-Cy
8-The Georgia Peach ( Tied with Young)
9-McIntyre
10-Joss
The Best of the Rest, in descending order:
Turkey Mike
Miner
Fielder
Evers
Lobert
You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.
<< Back to main