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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Tuesday, August 06, 2019Most Meritorious Player: 1919 DiscussionPlayers returned from the war. Sunday baseball starts in New York. Ray Caldwell gets hit by lightning and finishes the game anyway. The Giants and Phillies played a 51 minute 9 inning game. The White Sox threw the World Series to the Reds losing 5 games to 3 in a best of 9 contest. The Atlantic City Bacharach Giants defeated Hilldale 5 games to 4 in the “Colored Championship of the East”. The Detroit Stars and Chicago American Giants were the best teams in the West. Vote for 10. Player SH WS BBR WAR Babe Ruth 42.4 9.9 Heinie Groh 30.9 5.4 Bobby Veach 31.0 6.7 George Burns (NL) 33.0 5.1 Edd Roush 32.7 5.1 Roger Peckinpaugh 24.0 6.3 Eddie Collins 27.8 5.1 Ty Cobb 31.6 5.5 George Sisler 24.2 6.1 Rogers Hornsby 25.5 6.7 Tris Speaker 26.7 5.2 Joe Jackson 31.1 5.8 Ross Youngs 27.4 3.9 Wally Schang 18.7 4.4 Milt Stock 19.7 4.8 Art Fletcher 19.8 5.3 Del Pratt 21.1 5.3 Larry Doyle 19.7 4.1 Morrie Rath 21.8 3.9 Gavy Cravath 15.2 3.4 Ray Chapman 17.9 2.8 Max Flack 16.7 2.7 Happy Felsch 21.8 3.4 Larry Gardner 19.2 3.2 Charlie Hollocher 15.1 4.3 Rabbit Maranville 17.9 4.2 Benny Kauff 23.7 2.9 Hi Myers 22.1 3.5 Harry Heilmann 21.7 3.8 Oscar Charleston 18.4 5.1 Cristobal Torriente 14.5 3.9 Pete Hill 16.3 3.1 John Henry Lloyd 5.5 2.1 Dick Lundy 3.4 1.0 Jose Mendez 8.3 1.5 Louis Santop 0.9 -0.1 Ben Taylor 3.6 0.6 Pelayo Chacon 4.4 1.5 Jose LeBlanc 9.7 3.3 Pitcher SH WS BBR WAR Walter Johnson 25.6 10.7 Pete Alexander 25.7 7.5 Eddie Cicotte 31.1 9.6 Hippo Vaughn 30.8 7.3 Babe Adams 26.6 7.4 Stan Coveleski 27.7 7.0 Leon Cadore 19.2 5.6 Jim Shaw 18.7 6.1 Dick Rudolph 18.7 4.3 Art Nehf 19.5 5.0 Jeff Pfeffer 18.6 4.6 Allan Sothoron 24.4 5.8 Carl Mays 22.8 4.5 Urban Shocker 16.9 4.6 Wilbur Cooper 24.4 5.1 Fred Toney 15.4 4.0 Bernie Boland 16.7 4.5 Dutch Ruether 24.4 4.7 Lefty Williams 22.5 5.4 Jim Bagby 21.1 4.7 Bob Shawkey 23.0 3.7 Dick Redding 11.8 2.5 Dick Whitworth 12.0 2.8 Joe Williams 9.8 1.3 String Bean Williams 8.6 1.6 John Donaldson 7.8 1.7 Sam Crawford 10.7 1.4 Frank Wickware 6.2 1.3 |
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1. DL from MN Posted: August 07, 2019 at 11:54 AM (#5869107)That's an advantage of 0.7 in run average in roughly the same innings for Dick Redding. No comment about quality of competition East v West.
1) Babe Ruth - tops the list as a position player or a pitcher due to lapping the field in HR
2) Walter Johnson - another top season, see next post
3) Cannonball Dick Redding - best season from him
4) Heinie Groh - solid defender
5) Dick Whitworth
6) Pete Alexander
7) Bobby Veach
8) George Burns (NL)
9) Eddie Cicotte - then he threw the World Series
10) Hippo Vaughn - another year for pitchers
11-15) John Donaldson, Edd Roush, Roger Peckinpaugh, Eddie Collins, Ty Cobb
16-20) George Sisler, Rogers Hornsby, Tris Speaker, Oscar Charleston, Joe Jackson
1913 W Johnson 22.6
1985 Gooden 21.5
1995 Maddux 21.4
1972 Carlton 21.2
1994 Maddux 20.6
1918 W Johnson 20.4
1997 Clemens 19.9
1968 Gibson 19.5
2000 P Martinez 19.5
2009 Greinke 19.1
1902 Waddell 19.1
1912 W Johnson 19.1
1944 Trout 19.0
1945 Newhouser 18.8
1963 Koufax 18.7
1946 Feller 18.6
1919 W Johnson 18.5
1972 Seaver 18.3
2004 Santana 18.2
1971 Seaver 18.0
1999 P Martinez 18.0
1971 Wood 17.9
2015 Greinke 17.9
1901 Young 17.8
1916 Alexander 17.8
1978 Guidry 17.7
1972 Perry 17.7
1995 R Johnson 17.7
1980 Carlton 17.5
1953 Roberts 17.5
Then there's the matter of whether any of these stats matter since the outcome was pre-determined. The best performer among candidates was Jackson who was in on the fix. I am inclined to give Edd Roush a small bump and give no credit to anyone else.
1) When will the ballot thread open and close?
2) What are we allowed to do with respect to the Black Sox? Specifically, is it permissible to simply keep the "Eight Men Out" of our consideration set? And if not, is it permissible to negatively value their having thrown the World Series beyond simply including their lousy (in some cases) World Series performances?
Thanks!
1. Dick Whitworth 10.2 WARR
2. Walter Johnson 10.16 WARR
3. Bobby Veach 9.32 WARR. outstanding fielding numbers
4. Eddie Cicotte 9.26 WARR
5. Babe Adams 8.18 WARR
6. Pete Alexander 7.92 WARR
7. Babe Ruth 7.75 WARR Best hitter, but since pitching numbers were well below average, total ranking is not as high as expected
8. Roger Peckinpaugh 7.18 WARR
9. Tris Speaker 7.14 WARR
10. Art Fletcher 7.05 WARR
Rest of the top 15
11. Dick Redding
12. George Burns (NL)
13. John Donaldson
14. George Sisler
15. Del Pratt
This is the extent of the rules on what to do about the Black Sox:
"Voters should consider the player’s on-field contribution to Major League Baseball (MLB) team(s) in that season only. If part of the season was spent outside MLB, that value may be considered as well. However, the player’s on-field contribution should be judged in relation to the highest level major league, not relative to a minor league. A season may include playoff or World Series games but does not include spring training or exhibition games. No credit will be given for games not played due to injury, wartime service or contract holdouts."
I have Walter Johnson's season as one of the top 20. I don't see how Dick Whitworth's MLE makes sense, especially when the underlying stats say Redding was better. Was this season by Dick Whitworth really one of the top 20 of all time?
I appreciate your comment. The whole issue of the evaluation of NgL players in comparison to players in other NgL or to MLB players is one which I certainly do not have any definitive answers. I do not have the time or skill to consider all of the variables which have to be considered (park factors, run environment, quality of leagues, smaller sample sizes in NgL any many others) in order to provide a valid comparison . However someone (with I assume more skill than myself) has come up with MLEs which provide enough information so that I can can adjust the numbers to fit into my system. If someone has calculated MLEs in a better manner I would be the first person to be open to this information. Otherwise, I have to use the information available.
Is Whitworth better than Johnson? I don't know (even the best MLEs cannot accurately reflect the relative value of players). I will certainly look at possible adjustments to his numbers before the final ballot.
Is Whitworth better than Redding? Evidence (the MLEs printed above and the WAR values on Seamheads) both indicate that Whitworth had more value. I know you disagree. I would appreciate your thought process on how you arrived at the conclusion that Redding was better than Whitworth.
Thank you
"advantage of 0.7 in run average in roughly the same innings for Dick Redding"
That's a big advantage in run average. The peripheral stats favor Dick Redding
Of course that assumes quality of competition is the same. They did both play for Atlantic City that season and Redding was the workhorse but I think Whitworth was only added for the end of the season as a pick-up. Whitworth spent most of his year as the ace in Chicago.
1. Walter Johnson
2. Babe Ruth
3. Eddie Cicotte
4. Bobby Veach
5. George Sisler
6. Dick Redding
7. Ty Cobb
8. Rogers Hornsby
9. Pete Alexander
10.Babe Adams
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