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Friday, October 25, 2019

Most Meritorious Player: 1921 Ballot

For 1921 each voter should rank the top 10 players from all leagues combined.

Balloting is scheduled to close at 4pm EDT on 6 November 2019.

Anyone can vote, even if you do not normally participate in Hall of Merit discussions. If you have never participated in an MMP election, just post a preliminary ballot in the discussion thread by 5 November 2019.

For detailed rules see one of our previous ballots.

DL from MN Posted: October 25, 2019 at 05:53 PM | 8 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. DL from MN Posted: October 25, 2019 at 05:56 PM (#5894668)
This is Brock Hanke’s ballot for 1921. I'm posting it here early because the two weeks surrounding Halloween are one long run of events, due to my being in a large number of groups who take Halloween as a serious holiday, with parties and meetings and such. If I do NOT post anything on the Ballot Thread by the deadline, please transfer this to that thread and count it as my ballot. There was petty good consensus between Win Shares and WAR this year. I included Bullet Rogan’s and Cristobal Torriente’s numbers from the header, just to see what happened. Rogan finished fourth on the list. Now, I do not believe for a second that a Win Share in the Negro Leagues of 1921 is worth anything like what a WS was worth in the regular Majors. But, Rogan was a rare player, regardless of skin color. He is one of the very few players who could sustain a career as a pitcher AND as a position player, and be so good at both that he never was just converted to the one he was best at. He meets, let us say, the Bob Caruthers / Wes Ferrell standard. In 1921, and in most years, he was more a pitcher than a player, but so were Caruthers and Ferrell, and Bob Lemon and Don Newcombe as well. Ranking a Negro Leaguer fourth is a very tough choice for me. This one year, 1921, and this one player, Bullet Rogan, have talked me into it. Oh, and for you WAR fans out there who want to know why I have Hornsby listed ahead of Faber: In WAR, the difference between them is 0.2 WAR, a fifth of a win, in Faber’s favor. In Win Shares, the difference is 3.3 WS, which is a whole win and another third of a win, in Hornsby’s favor. I went with the larger difference. Anyhow enough of my rambling; here’s the list:

1. Babe Ruth
2. Rogers Hornsby
3. Red Faber
4. Bullet Rogan
5. Carl Mays
6. Urban Shocker
7. Dave Bancroft
8. Frank Firsch
9. Burleigh Grimes
10. George Sisler
   2. DL from MN Posted: October 30, 2019 at 03:44 PM (#5896595)
1921 Ballot

1) Babe Ruth - 1.5 FWAA, not just the bat his glove rates very highly
2) Rogers Hornsby
3) Red Faber - pretty uncontroversial top 3. Faber will make my "top pitching year" list
4) Bullet Rogan - great two-way play adds up to more than either the pitcher or hitter MLE on its own
5) Frankie Frisch - postseason bonus slides him ahead of similarly ranked contemporaries
6) Burleigh Grimes - best NL pitcher
7) Oscar Charleston
8) Dave Bancroft - no postseason bonus, didn't hit at all
9) Joe Williams - typical terrific season
10) Alejandro Oms - I don't think he hit better than Charleston (data doesn't support that) but he was very good in 1921 in limited playing time

11-15) Dick Redding, Sam Jones, Ty Cobb, Carl Mays, Dick Whitworth
16-20) Joe Sewell, Urban Shocker, Tris Speaker, Pelayo Chacon, George Mogridge
   3. MrC. Posted: October 31, 2019 at 03:01 PM (#5897518)
1921 Ballot

1. Babe Ruth 12.17 WARR He is starting to make a believer of me!!
2. Rogers Hornsby 11.43 WARR
3. Alejandro Oms 8.46 WARR
4. Oscar Charleston 7.30 WARR
5. Frankie Frisch 7.28 WARR
6. Ty Cobb 7.07 WARR
7. Red Faber 7.05 WARR
8. Dick Whitworth 7.00 WARR
9. Burleigh Grimes 6.67 WARR
10. Austin McHendry 6.26 WARR

Rest of the top 20
11 Joe Williams
12. Urban Shocker
13. Bobby Veach
14. Dick Redding
15. Tris Speaker
16. Dolf Luque
17. Ken Williams
18. Sam Jones
19. Carl Mays
20. George Sisler
   4. Qufini Posted: November 02, 2019 at 09:47 AM (#5898069)
1921 Ballot

1. Babe Ruth, LF, New York Yankees: the greatest season in history? 238 OPS+ and 229 RC
2. Rogers Hornsby, 2B, St. Louis Cardinals: 191 OPS+ and 167 RC in the Senior Circuit
3. Red Faber, P, Chicago White Sox: 170 ERA+ leads AL by 32 points; 330 IP is 2nd
4. Bullet Joe Rogan, P/RF: Kansas City Monarchs: 209 ERA+ and 140 OPS+
5. Harry Heilmann, RF, Detroit Tigers: 167 OPS+ and 159 RC are both second to Ruth in AL
6. Oscar Charleston, CF, St. Louis Giants: 245 OPS+ in 82 recorded games
7. Ty Cobb, CF, Detroit Tigers: 166 OPS+ is 3rd in AL
8. Carl Mays, P, New York Yankees: 336 IP leads AL; 138 ERA+ is second to Faber
9. Burleigh Grimes, P, Brooklyn Dodgers: top pitcher in the NL thanks to combo of quality and quantity (139 ERA+ in 302 IP)
10. Charlie Blackwell, RF, St. Louis Giants: 217 OPS+ plus +12 fielding in RF

11. Urban Shocker, P, St. Louis Browns: 326 IP leads AL; 127 ERA+ cracks the top ten
12. Stan Coveleski, P, Cleveland Indians
13. Frankie Frisch, 2B, New York Giants
14. Tris Speaker, CF, Cleveland Indians
15. Dave Bancroft, SS, New York Giants
16. Cristobal Torriente, CF, Chicago American Giants
17. Wilbur Cooper, P, Pittsburgh Pirates
18. George Mogridge, P, Washington Senators
19. Sad Sam Jones, P, Boston Red Sox
20. George Sisler, 1B, St. Louis Browns

*old voter, new user ID
   5. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: November 04, 2019 at 05:40 PM (#5898582)
Final ballot-no postseason credit but some small credit for playing for a Pennant-contender

1. Babe Ruth--no surprise here. Interesting that Ruth one just one batting title & never won a Triple Crown though he did have five seasons in which he led the AL in HR, RBI, OBP & SLG--one of which was 1921
2. Rogers Hornsby--top NL player by a significant margin
3. Red Faber--8 Black Sox were out, the ChiSox dropped to 62-92 but it didn't keep Faber from being the top pitcher
4. Harry Heilmann
5. Bullet Rogan
6. Ty Cobb
7. Oscar Charleston
8. Burleigh Grimes--overall a weak year for pitchers, Grimes was top NL hurler
9. Tris Speaker--doubles machine but very low RBI title considering he batted third
10.Dave Bancroft--good bat, great glove
   6. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 06, 2019 at 08:41 AM (#5899024)
Official 1921 MMP Ballot (no postseason bonuses and a 3% deduction for NL players):

1) Babe Ruth: Best ML player and left fielder - as was the case last season, nobody touches him.
2) Dave Brown: Best ML/NeL pitcher and NeL player.
3) Oscar Charleston: Best NeL positional player and ML/NeL center fielder.
4) Rogers Hornsby: Best NL player and ML second baseman.
5) Dobie Moore: Best ML/NeL shortstop.
6) Red Faber: Best AL pitcher.
7) Bullet Joe Rogan: Best ML/NeL hybrid player.
8) Carl Mays: Best submariner.
9) Ty Cobb: Best AL center fielder.
10) Harry Heilman: Best ML right fielder.

Best NL pitcher - Burleigh Grimes.

   7. Michael J. Binkley's anxiety closet Posted: November 06, 2019 at 03:21 PM (#5899194)
1921 MMP Ballot:

1. Babe Ruth (38.10)
2. Rogers Hornsby (32.75) - NL MMP
3. Alejandro Oms (26.27) - NgL MMP
4. Red Faber (24.47) - AL MMPitcher
5. Bullet Rogan (20.68) - NgL MMPitcher
6. Oscar Charleston (20.29)
7. Dave Bancroft (17.71)
8. Burleigh Grimes (17.16) - NL MMPitcher
9. Frankie Frisch (16.39)
10. Carl Mays (15.58)

11-15. Dick Redding, Dick Whitworth, Sad Sam Jones, Urban Shocker, Ty Cobb.
   8. DL from MN Posted: November 06, 2019 at 04:19 PM (#5899218)
Election is over, results shortly

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