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Wednesday, October 09, 2019

Most Meritorious Player: 1921 Discussion

Walter Johnson set the new career strikeouts record with 2835 and Ruth broke the career HR mark of 139.

The Giants beat the Yankees 5 games to 3

Vote for 10.

Player			SH WS		BBR WAR
Babe Ruth		52.5		12.5
Rogers Hornsby		40.2		10.8
Frankie Frisch		31.6		6.9
Dave Bancroft		30.5		7.4
Ty Cobb			25.8		6.7
Joe Sewell		26.3		4.9
Tris Speaker		27.0		6.5
Harry Heilmann		28.1		6.8
George Sisler		27.3		5.7
Austin McHenry		24.7		5.0
Larry Gardner		23.2		4.6
Bobby Veach		22.6		5.4
Eddie Collins		20.9		4.5
Jimmy Johnston		26.3		3.5
Ken Williams		27.5		5.4
Wally Schang		20.3		4.0
Jack Fournier		22.7		4.3
Max Carey		24.6		4.2
Sam Bohne		20.6		3.2
Howie Shanks		21.4		4.0
Walton Cruise		18.7		4.0
Ross Youngs		22.7		3.8
Jimmy Dykes		16.2		2.9
Edd Roush		18.7		3.7
Bob Meusel		24.0		4.1
High Pockets Kelly	22.9		3.8
Heinie Groh		15.8		2.9
Patsy Gharrity		18.7		4.3
Sam Rice		23.1		4.3
Baby Doll Jacobson	25.1		4.3
Rabbit Maranville	23.6		4.2
Tillie Walker		15.5		3.9
Del Pratt		21.1		3.8
Jack Tobin		25.1		3.7

Oscar Charleston	28.5		6.4
Cristobal Torriente	34.0		5.8
Ben Taylor		26.3		6.5
Charlie Blackwell	24.4		6.8
Hurley McNair		23.0		3.8
Jimmie Lyons 		20.0		3.6
John Henry Lloyd	19.2		4.0
Biz Mackey		18.3		3.0
Dobie Moore		14.9		5.3
George Carr		21.3		3.2
Bingo DeMoss		15.2		4.1


Pitcher			SH WS		BBR WAR
Red Faber		36.9		11.0
Burleigh Grimes		27.3		8.0
Sam Jones		27.9		7.2
Urban Shocker		29.2		8.4
Carl Mays		34.4		7.3
George Mogridge		26.3		6.3
Joe Bush		23.5		5.7
Dolf Luque		21.2		5.0
Pete Alexander		19.6		5.4
Walter Johnson		22.2		5.3
Stan Coveleski		25.6		6.4
Eppa Rixey		22.8		4.3
Eddie Rommel		19.0		5.1
Waite Hoyt		23.9		5.4
Wilbur Cooper		25.9		5.0
Whitey Glazner		21.8		4.6
Joe Oeschger		19.7		4.6
Babe Adams		17.1		4.0
Clarence Mitchell	16.0		4.1

Bullet Rogan		34.7		9.1
Jose LeBlanc		22.8		6.9
Jim Jeffries		21.5		5.8
Dave Brown		19.1		4.1
Dick Redding		18.2		4.7
Roy Roberts		17.8		4.2
Bill Drake		17.8		5.6
DL from MN Posted: October 09, 2019 at 06:12 PM | 9 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. DL from MN Posted: October 09, 2019 at 06:14 PM (#5888430)
Probably Ruth, Hornsby 1 and 2 but it gets interesting after that
   2. kwarren Posted: October 10, 2019 at 11:42 AM (#5888843)
My ballot:

1) Babe Ruth
2) Red Faber
3) Rogers Hornsby
4) Burleigh Grimes
5) Bullet Rogan
6) Oscar Charleston
7) Ty Cobb
8) Urban Shocker
9) Carl Mays
10) Sam Jones
   3. DL from MN Posted: October 10, 2019 at 11:45 AM (#5888844)
kwarren - thanks for joining us. This is the discussion thread, the actual ballot thread will appear at the end of the month. The election for 1921 will end November 6
   4. DL from MN Posted: October 10, 2019 at 05:15 PM (#5889086)
Eric C MLEs 1921
Player Name Age Lg Pos  PA Rbat Rbaser Rfield Rpos RAA   WAA  Rrep RAR   WAR
=======================================================================
Alejandro Oms  25 NL  CF  580   78    0    0    -1    -3   74   7.2   20   94   9.3
Oscar Charleston  24 NL  CF  620   65    2     - 2   - 3   62   6.1   19   81   8.1
Cristobal Torriente  27 NL  CF  620   43    1       0   - 3    41   4.1   19   60   6.1
Irvin Brooks  30 NL  CF  550   41  - 1     1   - 3    39   3.9   17   56   5.7
Ben Taylor  32 NL  1B  650   37    0       4   - 6   35   3.5   20   55   5.6
Pelayo Chacon  32 NL SS    550   28    0      2     8   38   3.8   17   55   5.6
Heavy Johnson  26 NL  RF  590   42    0    0    -2   - 6    34   3.4   20   54   5.5
Dobie Moore  25 NL  SS  480   21    0       9    7   37   3.7   15   52   5.3
Hurley McNair  32 NL  LF  640   32    0     3     - 6   29   3.0   20   49   5.1
Blainey Hall  32  NL LF   560   36    0     -1    -5    29   2.9   17   46   4.7
Spots Poles  33 NL  LF  510   30    1    0     3   - 5    29   2.9   17   46   4.7
Bullet Rogan  27 NL  CF  630   27    1       4   - 7   25   2.5   20   45   4.6
Bernardo Baro  25  NL CF   580   29    1      0     - 3    27   0.0   18   45   4.6
Dick Lundy 22 NL  SS   480   19    0    0      2     7   28   2.8   15   43   4.3
Bill Pierce  31 NL  1B    500   28   -1       3   - 5   26   2.6   16   41   4.2
Biz Mackey  23 NL  C  430   19    0       1    4   24   2.4   13   37   3.8
John H Lloyd  37 NL SS    440   14    0    0     2     6   22   2.2   14   36   3.6
John Beckwith  21 NL SS    360   19    0    0    -1     5   23   2.3   11   35   3.5
Louis Santop  32 NL  C  350   19    0       0    3   23   2.3   11   33   3.4
Edgar Wesley  30 NL  1B  510   20    0       2   - 5   17   1.7   16   33   3.3
George Carr  26 NL  1B  630   17    0     - 1   - 6   11   1.1   20   30   3.1
Jimmie Lyons 31 NL  LF   590   13     2     0     2    - 6    11   1.1   18   30   3.0
Ollie Marcelle  26 NL  3B  610    2    0      2    4     9   0.9   19   28   2.9
Bill Riggins  21 NL SS    490     0    0      5     7    12   1.3   15   27   2.8
Doc Wiley 34  NL  C  280   13    0       0     3   15   1.5  10   25   2.5
Pete Hill  38 NL RF   370   15    0    0    -1    -4   11   1.1   12   22   2.3
Fats Jenkins  23 NL  LF  540    8    1     2    - 5     6   0.6   17   23   2.3
Bill Pettus  36 NL 1B    270    3    0    0     3   - 2    4   0.4    8   12   1.3
Rev Cannady  19 NL  SS  100    4    0       0     1    5   0.5    3    8   0.8
Bruce Petway 35  NL  C  170  - 2    0       1     2    0   0.0   6    6   0.6

                       PITCHING          |  BATTING    |  TOTAL
PITCHER NAME  AGE   IP  RAA   WAA   WAR  |  PA    WAR  |   WAR
================================================================
Dick Whitworth 25  300   47   5.1   8.1  |  100   0.1  |   8.2 
Joe Williams   35  300   35   3.8   6.9  |  100   0.5  |   7.3
Dick Redding   31  300   35   3.8   6.9  |  100   0.2  |   7.1
Bullet Rogan   27  300   24   2.5   5.6  |  100   0.9  |   6.5
Juan Padron    28  250   30   3.2   5.7  |   83  -0.2  |   5.6 
Dave Brown   26    300   16   1.7   4.8  |  100  -0.3  |   4.5
Reuben Curry   22  250    7   0.7   3.3  |   83   0.0  |   3.3
Jose Junco     31  140   17   1.7   3.1  |   47  -0.1  |   3.0 
Andy Cooper    25  220    6   0.6   2.9  |   73  -0.4  |   2.4
John Donaldson 30   40  - 1  -0.1   0.3  |   13   0.1  |   0.4
   5. DL from MN Posted: October 10, 2019 at 05:48 PM (#5889097)
1921 Prelim

1) Babe Ruth - 1.5 FWAA, not just the bat his glove rates very highly
2) Rogers Hornsby
3) Red Faber - pretty uncontroversial top 3. Faber will make my "top pitching year" list
4) Bullet Rogan - great two-way play adds up to more than either the pitcher or hitter MLE on its own
5) Burleigh Grimes - best NL pitcher
6) Oscar Charleston
7) Joe Williams
8) Frankie Frisch
9) Dave Bancroft
10) Alejandro Oms - I don't think he hit better than Charleston (data doesn't support that) but he was very good in 1921 in limited playing time

11-15) Dick Redding, Sam Jones, Ty Cobb, Dick Whitworth, Joe Sewell
16-20) Urban Shocker, Tris Speaker, Carl Mays, Pelayo Chacon, George Mogridge
   6. DL from MN Posted: October 10, 2019 at 05:51 PM (#5889098)
Best pitching seasons in the history of the MMP project by my point score

1913 W Johnson 22.6
1920 Alexander 22.2
1985 Gooden 21.5
1995 Maddux 21.4
1972 Carlton 21.2
1994 Maddux 20.6
1918 W Johnson 20.4
1997 Clemens 19.9
1968 Gibson 19.5
2000 P Martinez 19.5
2009 Greinke 19.1
1902 Waddell 19.1
1912 W Johnson 19.1
1921 Faber 19.0
1944 Trout 19.0
1945 Newhouser 18.8
1963 Koufax 18.7
1946 Feller 18.6
1919 W Johnson 18.5
1972 Seaver 18.3
2004 Santana 18.2
1971 Seaver 18.0
1999 P Martinez 18.0
1971 Wood 17.9
2015 Greinke 17.9
1901 Young 17.8
1916 Alexander 17.8
1978 Guidry 17.7
1972 Perry 17.7
1995 R Johnson 17.7
1980 Carlton 17.5
1953 Roberts 17.5
   7. MrC. Posted: October 22, 2019 at 10:23 AM (#5892741)
1921 Prelim

1. Babe Ruth 12.17 WARR He is starting to make a believer of me!!
2. Rogers Hornsby 11.43 WARR
3. Alejandro Oms 8.46 WARR
4. Oscar Charleston 7.30 WARR
5. Frankie Frisch 7.28 WARR
6. Ty Cobb 7.07 WARR
7. Red Faber 7.05 WARR
8. Dick Whitworth 7.00 WARR
9. Burleigh Grimes 6.67 WARR
10. Austin McHendry 6.26 WARR

Rest of the top 20
11 Joe Williams
12. Urban Shocker
13. Bobby Veach
14. Dick Redding
15. Tris Speaker
16. Dolf Luque
17. Ken Williams
18. Sam Jones
19. Carl Mays
20. George Sisler

   8. bjhanke Posted: October 25, 2019 at 06:03 AM (#5894290)
This is Brock Hanke’s ballot for 1921. I'm posting it here early because the two weeks surrounding Halloween are one long run of events, due to my being in a large number of groups who take Halloween as a serious holiday, with parties and meetings and such. If I do NOT post anything on the Ballot Thread by the deadline, please transfer this to that thread and count it as my ballot. There was petty good consensus between Win Shares and WAR this year. I included Bullet Rogan’s and Cristobal Torriente’s numbers from the header, just to see what happened. Rogan finished fourth on the list. Now, I do not believe for a second that a Win Share in the Negro Leagues of 1921 is worth anything like what a WS was worth in the regular Majors. But, Rogan was a rare player, regardless of skin color. He is one of the very few players who could sustain a career as a pitcher AND as a position player, and be so good at both that he never was just converted to the one he was best at. He meets, let us say, the Bob Caruthers / Wes Ferrell standard. In 1921, and in most years, he was more a pitcher than a player, but so were Caruthers and Ferrell, and Bob Lemon and Don Newcombe as well. Ranking a Negro Leaguer fourth is a very tough choice for me. This one year, 1921, and this one player, Bullet Rogan, have talked me into it. Oh, and for you WAR fans out there who want to know why I have Hornsby listed ahead of Faber: In WAR, the difference between them is 0.2 WAR, a fifth of a win, in Faber’s favor. In Win Shares, the difference is 3.3 WS, which is a whole win and another third of a win, in Hornsby’s favor. I went with the larger difference. Anyhow enough of my rambling; here’s the list:

1. Babe Ruth
2. Rogers Hornsby
3. Red Faber
4. Bullet Rogan
5. Carl Mays
6. Urban Shocker
7. Dave Bancroft
8. Frank Firsch
9. Burleigh Grimes
10. George Sisler
   9. DL from MN Posted: October 30, 2019 at 03:35 PM (#5896589)
1921 World Series
Player Name G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS SB CS E WPA
Dave Bancroft 8 33 3 5 1 0 0 3 1 5 .152 .176 .182 .358 0 1 1 -0.55
Frankie Frisch 8 30 5 9 0 1 0 1 4 3 .300 .382 .367 .749 3 0  2 -0.09
High Pockets Kelly 8 30 3 7 1 0 0 4 3 10  .233 .303 .267 .570 0 1 0 -0.30
Ross Youngs 8 25 3 7 1 1 0 4 7 2 .280 .438 .400 .838 2 1 0 0.14

Bob Meusel 8 30 3 6 2 0 0 3 2 5 .200 .250 .267 .517 1 2 0 -0.25
Babe Ruth 6 16 3 5 0 0 1 4 5 8 .313 .476 .500 .976 2 1 0 0.09
Wally Schang 8 21 1 6 1 1 0 1 5 4 .286 .423 .429 .852 0 0 0 0.11

Pitcher Name G GS ERA W L SV CG IP H R ER BB SO WHIP WPA
Waite Hoyt 3 3 0.00 2 1 0 3 27.0 18 2 0 11 18 1.074 1.59
Carl Mays 3 3 1.73 1 2 0 3 26.0 20 6 5 0 9 0.769 0.54

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