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— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Thursday, February 06, 2020

Most Meritorious Player: 1924 Discussion

The Washington Senators defeated the Giants 4 games to 3 in a World Series. Game 7 went 12 innings.

The Kansas City Monarchs beat Hilldale 5 games to 4 (with another game ending tied) in the Colored World Series. Games were played in Philadelphia, Baltimore, Kansas City and Chicago.

Vote for 10.

Player			SH WS		BBR WAR
Rogers Hornsby		39.4		12.1
Babe Ruth		44.8		11.7
Frankie Frisch		29.5		7.5
Zack Wheat		35.3		6.7
Ross Youngs		28.7		5.9
Jack Fournier		34.4		6.3
Harry Heilmann		29.6		6.4
Goose Goslin		28.9		6.4
Eddie Collins		25.6		5.2
Kiki Cuyler		24.0		4.7
Joe Sewell		21.4		4.0
Topper Rigney		21.9		4.7
George Kelly		25.1		4.8
Roger Peckinpaugh	21.5		4.3
Johnny Bassler		21.0		4.3
Andy High		27.8		4.9
Ty Cobb			27.6		5.4
Max Carey		25.1		4.0
Glenn Wright		22.2		5.7
Tris Speaker		20.3		4.6
Marty McManus		17.5		3.4
Ken Williams		18.2		4.3
Sam Rice		24.0		4.4
Joe Judge		19.1		3.9
Baby Doll Jacobson	22.8		4.4
Joe Hauser		21.1		3.9
Cy Williams		20.8		4.1
Harry Hooper		19.2		4.7
Bibb Falk		20.9		4.3

Dobie Moore				4.8
Oscar Charleston			4.5
Heavy Johnson				3.5
Cristobal Torriente			4.4
Turkey Stearnes				2.6
Hurley McNair				3.1
Judy Johnson				3.0
Martin Dihigo				2.7
Newt Joseph				3.8
Carl Glass				2.8
Dick Lundy 				2.8
Frank Warfield				2.6				
Bill Pierce				2.5
Louis Santop				2.2				
Dave Malarcher				2.1				
Jud Wilson				2.0
Alejandro Oms				1.2
John Henry Lloyd			2.1
Biz Mackey				2.1
John Beckwith				2.5
Mule Suttles				1.6
Newt Allen				1.5
Ben Taylor				1.1

Pitcher			SH WS		BBR WAR
Dazzy Vance		35.4		10.2
Herb Pennock		27.0		7.6
Howard Ehmke		23.5		8.1
Walter Johnson		28.6		7.5
Joe Shaute		21.2		6.6
Jesse Barnes		21.2		5.2
Sherry Smith		18.4		5.6
Eppa Rixey		20.4		5.2
Joe Bush		21.6		5.7
Sloppy Thurston		18.6		4.8
Jack Quinn		17.5		4.8
Tom Zachary		20.1		5.2
Ernie Wingard		19.1		5.3
Bill Doak		14.7		3.7
Alex Ferguson		15.4		4.4
Urban Shocker		20.1		4.9
Johnny Cooney		15.4		3.7
Eddie Rommell		20.6		4.0
Wilbur Cooper		23.3		3.8
Burleigh Grimes		20.4		3.0

Nip Winters				7.9
Bullet Rogan				6.0
Dave Brown				6.8
Sam Streeter				5.7
Red Ryan				3.9
Juan Padron				3.5
Willis Flournoy				3.1
Jose Mendez				1.7
DL from MN Posted: February 06, 2020 at 06:24 PM | 15 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. DL from MN Posted: February 06, 2020 at 06:25 PM (#5922510)
Should be a good battle between Hornsby and Ruth this year
   2. DL from MN Posted: February 06, 2020 at 06:27 PM (#5922511)
Best pitching seasons in the history of the MMP project by my point score

1913 W Johnson 22.6
1920 Alexander 22.2
1985 Gooden 21.5
1995 Maddux 21.4
1972 Carlton 21.2
1994 Maddux 20.6
1918 W Johnson 20.4
1923 D Luque 20.2
1997 Clemens 19.9
1924 Vance 19.6
1968 Gibson 19.5
2000 P Martinez 19.5
2009 Greinke 19.1
1902 Waddell 19.1
1912 W Johnson 19.1
1921 Faber 19.0
1944 Trout 19.0
1945 Newhouser 18.8
1963 Koufax 18.7
1946 Feller 18.6
1919 W Johnson 18.5
1972 Seaver 18.3
2004 Santana 18.2
1971 Seaver 18.0
1999 P Martinez 18.0
1971 Wood 17.9
2015 Greinke 17.9
1901 Young 17.8
1916 Alexander 17.8
1978 Guidry 17.7
1972 Perry 17.7
1995 R Johnson 17.7
1980 Carlton 17.5
1953 Roberts 17.5
   3. DL from MN Posted: February 07, 2020 at 12:41 PM (#5922662)
Dr C NGL MLEs 1924
Player Name Age Lg Pos G PA Rbat Rbaser Rdp Rfield Rpos RAA WAA Rrep RAR WAR
Oscr Charleston 27 NL CF 146 620 101 2 0 2 -3 101 9.8 19 120 11.9
Dobie Moore 28 NL SS 146 620 49 0 0 11 9 69 7.0 19 89 9.0
Jud Wilson 28 NL 3B 136 580 45 1 0 4 4 53 5.3 18 71 7.3
Turkey Stearnes 23 NL CF 150 640 47 0 0 2 -4 46 4.6 20 66 6.7
Crist Torriente 30 NL LF 143 610 57 1 0 -4 -6 47 4.7 19 66 6.7
Dick Lundy 25 NL SS 136 580 31 0 0 5 8 44 4.4 18 62 6.3
Heavy Johnson 29 NL RF 132 560 44 0 0 -1 -5 37 3.8 19 57 5.8
Hurley McNair 35 NL RF 129 550 35 0 0 1 -5 31 3.1 17 48 4.9
Bullet Rogan 30 NL RF 129 550 34 1 0 1 -5 30 3.0 17 47 4.8
Newt Allen 23 NL 2B 146 620 7 0 0 14 4 25 2.6 19 45 4.7
John Beckwith 24 NL SS 132 560 22 0 0 -2 8 28 2.8 17 45 4.6
George Scales 23 NL 2B 127 540 21 0 0 2 4 27 2.7 17 44 4.5
Biz Mackey  26 NL C 136 580 19 0 0 1 4 24 2.5 18 42 4.4
Ben Taylor  35 NL 1B 148 630 19 0 0 4 -6 17 1.7 20 36 3.8
Mule Suttles  23 NL 1B 146 620 19 0 0 2 -6 16 1.6 19 35 3.7
Alejandro Oms 28 NL CF 127 540 20 0 0 -1 -3 16 1.6 18 34 3.6
John H Lloyd 40 NL 1B 68 290 15 0 0 1 -3 14 1.4 9 23 2.3
Louis Santop 35 NL C 35 150 4 0 0 0 1 5 0.5 5 10 1.0
Willie Wells 18 NL SS 31 130 1 0 0 1 2 4 0.4 4 8 0.8
Cool Papa Bell 21 NL CF 78 330 -3 1 0 -1 -2 -4 -0.4 10 6 0.7

Pitcher Name  Age Lg G IP R RA9 lgRA9 RAA WAA pWAR Rrep RAR PA Rbat Rpos RAA bWAR WAR 
Webstr McDonald 24 NL 34 200 66 2.96 4.54 35 3.8 5.8 19 54 67 -7 6 -1 -0.2 5.6
Bullet Rogan 30 NL 39 270 135 4.52 4.54 1 0.1 2.9 25 26 90 5 8 13 0.8 3.7
Joe Williams 38 NL 32 200 91 4.09 4.54 10 1.1 3.1 19 29 67 -2 6 4 0.2 3.3
Dick Redding 34 NL 34 200 100 4.52 4.54 0 0.1 2.1 19 19 67 -3 6 3 0.2 2.3
William Bell 26 NL 33 170 85 4.53 4.54 0 0.0 1.8 16 16 57 -2 5 3 0.2 2.0 
Willie Foster 20 NL 35 150 73 4.38 4.54 3 0.3 1.8 14 17 50 -4 4 0 0.0 1.8
Martin Dihigo 19 NL 12 50 16 2.84 4.54 9 1.0 1.5 5 14 17 0 1 2 0.1 1.6

   4. DL from MN Posted: February 07, 2020 at 12:44 PM (#5922667)
Looks like Oscar Charleston should be in serious consideration for the top spot this season.
   5. DL from MN Posted: February 07, 2020 at 02:55 PM (#5922712)
NGL hitters by OPS+

Oscar Charleston .405/.476/.780 254
Cristobal Torriente .357/.445/.597 204
Bullet Rogan .398/.442/.581 202
Heavy Johnson .367/.423/.540 180
Esteban Montalvo .322/.389/.575 171
Turkey Stearnes .348/.397/599 169
Jud Wilson .391/.436/.510 168
Bill Pierce .332/.398/.583 165
Dobie Moore .348/.391/.516 165
   6. DL from MN Posted: February 07, 2020 at 03:01 PM (#5922715)
Pitchers by ERA+

Dave Brown 179.2 IP 2.00 ERA 243
Martin Dihigo 49 IP 2.39 ERA 193
Juan Padron 140.1 IP 1.99 ERA 180
Willis Flournoy 80.1 IP 2.69 ERA 170
Carl Glass 107.2 IP 2.93 ERA 153
Rats Henderson 69.2 IP 2.58 ERA 153
Squire Moore 113.2 IP 3.01 ERA 149
Nip Winters 246.2 IP 2.59 ERA 147
Sam Streeter 200.1 IP 2.97 ERA 141
   7. DL from MN Posted: February 10, 2020 at 05:55 PM (#5923293)
Dave Brown MLE
YEAR  AGE   IP  RAA   WAA   WAR  |  PA   WAR  |   WAR
========================================================
1923   28    300   59   6.3   9.3  |  100  -0.3  |   9.0
1924   29    270   57   6.4   9.0  |   90  -0.4  |   8.7
   8. DL from MN Posted: February 10, 2020 at 06:05 PM (#5923296)
1924 Prelim

1) Rogers Hornsby - .507 OBP
2) Babe Ruth - Hit about as well as Hornsby but played a less valuable position
3) Oscar Charleston - destroyed the Negro National League
4) Dazzy Vance - best pitcher
5) Dobie Moore - big bat and good glove
6) Dave Brown - best pitcher not named Dazzy
7) Frankie Frisch
8) Herb Pennock - best AL pitcher
9) Jud Wilson - best 3B in a down year for 3B
10) Howard Ehmke

11-15) Zack Wheat, Ross Youngs, Jack Fournier, Dick Lundy, Juan Padron
16-20) Harry Heilmann, Walter Johnson, Cristobal Torriente, Goose Goslin, Eddie Collins
21-25) Turkey Stearnes, Joe Shaute, Kiki Cuyler, Joe Sewell, Bullet Rogan
   9. MrC. Posted: February 14, 2020 at 12:27 PM (#5924424)
1924 Preliminary

1. Rogers Hornsby 12.89 WARR
2. Babe Ruth 12.04 WARR
3. Dazzy Vance 11.46 WARR
4. Oscar Charleston 11.07 WARR
5. Dobie Moore 8.27 WARR
6. Howard Ehmke 8.21 WARR
7. Walter Johnson 7.86 WARR
8. Dave Brown 7.53 WARR
9. Frankie Frisch 7.27 WARR
10. Jack Fournier 6.97 WARR

The rest of the top 20
Judd Wilson
Goose Goslin
Zack Wheat
Urban Shocker
Cristobal Torriente
Harry Heilman
Turkey Stearnes
Glenn Wright
Dick Lundy
Kiki Cuyler

   10. DL from MN Posted: February 24, 2020 at 10:48 AM (#5926161)
1924 World Series
Player Name G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB  SO BA OBP SLG OPS SB CS E WPA 
Goose Goslin 7  32 4 11 1 0 3 7 0 7 .344 .344 .656 1.000 0 2 0 0.02 
Joe Judge 7 26 4 10 1 0 0 0 5 2 .385 .484 .423 .907 0 1 1 -0.06
Roger Peckinpaugh 4 12 1 5 2 0 0 2 1 0 .417 .462 .583 1.045 1 0 0 0.76
Sam Rice 7 29 2 6 0 0 0 1 3 2 .207 .281 .207 .488 2 0 1 -0.48

Frankie Frisch  7 30 1 10 4 1 0 0 4 1 .333 .429 .533 .962 1 0 0 0.16
High Pockets Kelly 7 31 7 9 1 0 1 4 1 8 .290 .313 .419 .732 0 0 1 -0.19
Ross Youngs 7 27 3 5 1 0 0 1 5 6 .185 .333 .222 .556 1 1 0 -0.39 

Pitcher Name G GS ERA W L SV CG IP H R ER BB  SO WHIP WPA
Walter Johnson 3 2 3.00 1 2 0 2 24.0 30 10 8 11 20 1.708 0.53
Tom Zachary 2 2 2.04 2 0 0 1 17.2 13 4 4 3 3 0.906 0.67
   11. DL from MN Posted: March 02, 2020 at 11:13 AM (#5927497)
I could certainly have added Oscar, but there is so little difference between his value and that of a few others that I couldn’t justify adding just him.


I am not seeing this. It might be Charleston's best season according to the stats. I'm not sure what Brock sees differently.
   12. DL from MN Posted: March 03, 2020 at 10:10 AM (#5927733)
We appear to have a very close election this year but not many voters so far.
   13. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: March 03, 2020 at 11:11 PM (#5927882)
DL, please move this into the final ballot as this I couldnt trick the system into allowing me to post in it

Final ballot-no postseason credit but some small credit for playing for Pennant-contender
1. Babe Ruth -I went with Ruth just over Hornsby, Ruth was part of a Pennant-contender and thus playing more meaningful games, Ruth had a comparable OBP to Hornsby & an advantage in power
2. Rogers Hornsby -poor guy hits .424 & is 2nd to Vance in the NL MVP & 2nd to Ruth on my MMP ballot
3. Dazzy Vance -dominant pitching year, won NL Triple Crown
4. Oscar Charleston -good size gap from #4 to #5
5. Walter Johnson -a big year, AL MVP & Triple Crown, helped Washington win AL Pennant
6. Herb Pennock -pretty close to Big Train
7. Frankie Frisch
8. Dobie Moore
9. Zack Wheat
10.Jack Fournier

Goslin & Heilman just miss
   14. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: March 03, 2020 at 11:14 PM (#5927886)
Nevermind moving the post to the 1924 final ballot, I got it to post
   15. DL from MN Posted: March 04, 2020 at 04:16 PM (#5928161)
Just realized we probably should have been checking MLEs for Lefty Grove.

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