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Tuesday, May 12, 2020

Most Meritorious Player: 1927 Discussion

The Yankees swept the Pirates in the World Series.

The Chicago American Giants defeated the Bacharach Giants 5 games to 3 in the Colored World Series.

Vote for 10.

Player			SH WS		BBR WAR
Babe Ruth		44.2		12.4
Lou Gehrig		43.4		11.8
Rogers Hornsby		39.5		10.1
Frankie Frisch		36.1		9.2
Paul Waner		35.3		6.9
Harry Heilmann		32.1		7.2
Earle Combs		31.3		6.9
Pie Traynor		26.0		3.9
Hack Wilson		30.6		6.0
Al Simmons		24.8		5.8
Travis Jackson		24.1		5.1
Tony Lazzeri		24.1		6.3
George Harper		26.1		5.4
Chuck Dressen		23.1		4.4
Riggs Stephenson	26.6		4.8
Mickey Cochrane		22.7		3.8
Bill Terry		26.5		5.3
Chick Hafey		20.7		3.7
Gabby Hartnett		20.5		3.6
Goose Goslin		27.4		5.3
Bibb Falk		20.5		4.7
Joe Sewell		20.1		3.5
Jim Bottomley		25.8		4.4
Charlie Gehringer	20.3		4.1
Bob Meusel		21.0		4.2
Sammy Hale		17.8		2.7
Ty Cobb			21.3		4.4
Bob Fothergill		22.1		4.4
Alex Metzler		20.7		4.1
Tris Speaker		21.0		3.6

Roy Parnell				7.6
Ed Rile					7.1
Willie Wells				6.8
Dick Lundy				5.5
Steel Arm Davis				5.2
Turkey Stearnes				5.2
Jud Wilson				5.1
Oscar Charleston			4.7
Wilson Redus				3.9
Poindexter Williams			3.8
Martin Dihigo				3.4
John Beckwith				3.0
Mule Suttles				2.5
Heavy Johnson				2.5
Newt Allen				2.5
Cool Papa Bell				2.2
Cristobal Torriente			2.1

Pitcher			SH WS		BBR WAR
Dazzy Vance		24.5		7.5
Tommy Thomas		28.4		7.9
Ted Lyons		29.3		7.9
Pete Alexander		27.3		6.5
Jesse Petty		21.1		5.6
Jesse Haines		28.1		5.2
Red Lucas		23.0		5.8
Ray Kremer		22.5		6.7
Waite Hoyt		23.3		6.1
Bump Hadley		18.2		5.3
Lefty Grove		24.9		5.3
Dutch Ulrich		15.2		4.0
Willis Hudlin		19.1		4.8
Wilcy Moore		24.4		5.7
Earl Whitehill		17.4		5.0
Carmen Hill		21.2		4.9
Lee Meadows		21.0		4.8
Jake Miller		15.8		4.0
Jack Quinn		17.9		4.3
Charlie Root		21.0		3.1
	
Willie Foster				6.9
Bullet Rogan				6.0
Harry Salmon				5.7
William Bell				5.4
Sam Streeter				5.0
Luther Farrell				4.6
Nip Winters				4.0
Darltie Cooper				4.5
Satchel Paige				4.0
George Mitchell				3.9
Ted Trent				3.6	
DL from MN Posted: May 12, 2020 at 05:19 PM | 7 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. DL from MN Posted: May 12, 2020 at 05:44 PM (#5949868)
Dr C MLEs
Player Name Age Lg Pos G PA Rbat Rbaser Rdp Rfield Rpos RAA WAA Rrep RAR WAR
Jud Wilson 31 NL 3B 140 600 54 1 0 4 4 62 6.2 19 81 8.1
Osc Charleston 30 NL CF 150 640 45 2 0 2 -3 45 4.5 20 65 6.6
Willie Wells 21 NL SS 133 570 31 1 0 5 8 45 4.5 18 63 6.4
Turkey Stearnes 26 NL CF 152 650 41 0 0 2 -3 41 4.1 20 61 6.2
Newt Allen 26 NL 2B 147 630 20 0 0 14 4 39 4.0 20 59 6.0
Dick Lundy 28 NL SS 143 610 19 0 0 5 8 32 3.3 19 51 5.3
Martin Dihigo 22 NL CF 147 630 27 1 0 7 -3 31 3.2 20 51 5.2
Biz Mackey 29 NL C 122 520 22 0 0 1 4 26 2.6 16 42 4.3
John Beckwith 27 NL 3B 140 600 23 0 0 -4 4 22 2.2 19 41 4.2
Mule Suttles 26 NL 1B 86 370 29 0 0 1 -4 27 2.7 12 39 3.9
Heavy Johnson 32 NL RF 124 530 26 0 0 -1 -5 20 2.0 18 38 3.9
Bullet Rogan 33 NL RF 129 550 24 1 0 1 -5 21 2.1 17 38 3.9
Alejandro Oms 31 NL CF 133 570 19 0 0 -1 -3 16 1.6 19 35 3.6
George Scales 25 NL 2B 132 560 11 0 0 3 4 17 1.7 17 34 3.5
Ben Taylor 38 NL 1B 94 400 11 0 0 3 -4 9 1.0 12 22 2.3
Cool Papa Bell 24 NL CF 152 650 3 2 0 -1 -3 0 0.0 20 21 2.1
Crist Torriente 33 NL LF 145 620 9 1 0 -5 -6 -1 -0.1 19 19 1.9
Hurley McNair 38 NL RF 86 370 3 0 0 1 -4 0 0.0 12 12 1.2

Pitcher Name Age Lg G IP R RA9 lgRA9 RAA WAA pWAR Rrep RAR PA Rbat Rpos RAA bWAR WAR 
Bullet Rogan 33 NL 38 230 82 3.20 4.58 35 3.8 6.1 22 57 77 4 8 12 0.8 6.9
Willie Foster 23 NL 40 270 101 3.37 4.58 36 3.9 6.6 26 62 90 -7 9 1 0.1 6.7
William Bell 29 NL 38 230 84 3.27 4.58 33 3.6 5.9 22 55 77 -2 8 5 0.3 6.2
Satchel Paige 21 AL 30 180 69 3.47 4.99 30 3.1 4.9 19 49 60 -5 6 1 0.1 4.9
Martin Dihigo 22 NL 36 210 86 3.69 4.58 21 2.2 4.3 20 41 70 1 7 8 0.5 4.8
Webstr McDonald 27 NL 36 210 83 3.56 4.58 24 2.5 4.6 20 44 70 -7 7 0 -0.1 4.6
Joe Williams 41 NL 22 130 46 3.20 4.58 20 2.1 3.4 12 32 25 -1 3 2 0.1 3.6
Bill Holland 26 NL 38 230 115 4.50 4.58 2 0.2 2.6 22 24 77 -9 8 -1 -0.2 2.4
Dick Redding 37 NL 36 210 109 4.65 4.58 -2 -0.2 2.0 20 18 70 -3 7 4 0.3 2.2
   2. DL from MN Posted: May 12, 2020 at 07:15 PM (#5949902)
NGL batting leaders

Player Name OPS+
Roy Parnell 240
Charlie Smith 222
Jud Wilson 213
Oscar Charleston 209
Willie Wells 204
Ed Rile 194
Turkey Stearnes 191

Pitcher Name ERA+
Joe Williams 384
Darltie Cooper 173
William Bell 172
Bullet Rogan 161
George Mitchell 158
Ed Rile 153
Satchel Paige 151
Willie Foster 149

   3. DL from MN Posted: May 12, 2020 at 07:47 PM (#5949906)
1927 Prelim

1) Babe Ruth
2) Lou Gehrig
3) Rogers Hornsby - these shouldn't be controversial
4) Frankie Frisch - outstanding glove
5) Paul Waner
6) Dazzy Vance - top pitcher
7) Willie Wells - positional value makes him the top NGL player
8) Tommy Thomas
9) Roy Parnell - career year
10) Jud Wilson

11-15) Harry Heilmann, Bullet Rogan, Willie Foster, Charlie Smith, Earle Combs
16-20) Ted Lyons, Dick Lundy, Pie Traynor, Pete Alexander, Biz Mackey (top catcher)
21-25) William Bell, Hack Wilson, Al Simmons, Travis Jackson, Jesse Petty
   4. DL from MN Posted: May 13, 2020 at 12:22 PM (#5950065)
Don't sleep on Roy Parnell just because Dr C doesn't have a 1927 MLE calculated for him. More on Parnell here: http://www.nlbemuseum.com/history/players/parnell.html

Ed Rile is also interesting as a two way player - 140IP and 75 games at first base with career bests pitching and hitting.
   5. bjhanke Posted: May 18, 2020 at 02:38 PM (#5951723)
OK. This is the Urban Legend about Rogers Hornsby that I’ve been promising you all for a couple of months. Background: When I first became a hardcore baseball fan (1954; I was 6), my dad told me this biography of Rogers Hornsby, because, well, Hornsby is important in St. Louis. Please forgive dad. He was born in 1911. His teenager knowledge of Hornsby was seeing him play, plus whatever the media of the time said about him. Decades later, though, I checked it out with Bob Broeg, by then an elderly semi-retired writer who had covered the Cards for decades, but was even youger than my dad. Broeg really should have known better, but gave me the exact same version that my dad did. I didn’t find out that this urban legend was not entirely factual only about ten years ago, when I read My War with Baseball, Hornsby’s autobiography. That corrected a lot of what I’d thought I knew, but then I realized something. The Urban Myth, although false, is actually completely plausible. Except for Hornsby’s own words, I’d probably still believe it today. Anyway, here goes:

The Urban Myth does not start with Hornsby’s rookie year or anything. It starts in 1925. In 1925, the Cards, although they had talent, were not winning. They were 13-25 when Branch Rickey decided to promote himself to full-time General Manager, and gave up the managerial post. It went to Hornsby, in order to save money – most of you know about player-managers in the 1920s and 30s. And the team turned around immediately. They went 64-51 during Hornsby’s tenure, finishing at 77-76.

Then 1926 happened. The team kept on playing just like they had for Hornsby in the previous year. They won the World Series. They did this in spite of their superstar player, one Rogers Hornsby, having his weakest season in the 1920s. To my dad, Hornsby looked like a martyr and a savior, who had given up his personal numbers to guide the team to a Championship. Dad was envisioning a dynasty, especially since Rickey’s farm system was cranking out talent. Then, Hornsby got traded to the Giants, for Frankie Frish, Jimmy Ring, and some cash. Say, WHAT? The rumor mill was that Rickey had gotten jealous of Hornsby’s superb managerial skills, and had traded him to the one team that would NOT let him manage – John McGraw’s Giants.

Hornsby lasted only one year in NY, 1927. His hitting came right back, but what he now wanted was to prove Rickey wrong, and show that he really WAS a great manager. This wasn’t going to happen with the Giants, and Hornsby feuded with McGraw.

A last note about the Cardinals at that time. Everyone knows that the 1927 Cards, without Hornsby but with Frank Frisch’s career year, won three more games than they had in 1926, but the Pirates rose in revolt and won the pennant. This is held as evidence against Hornsby. That is wrong. What happened was that, in the middle of 1926, the Cards, already playing like they had for Hornsby in 1925, managed to get their hands on Grover Cleveland Alexander. Pete didn’t pitch that well (9-7, although he had the lowest ERA of any Cards stater), but the team did win, and then there was Tony Lazzeri. And then, in 1927, what happened was that the Cards had a FULL season of Ol’ Pete. Is half a season of Pete Alexander, compared to your #4 starter, worth three games? Of course it is; that’s the entire difference between the 1926 team’s record and 1927. Frisch’s career year was not much better than Hornsby’s BAD year in 1926, but Ol’ Pete was there all year in 1927.

Back to the main thread: The owner of the Boston Braves was trying to shore up his truly lousy team by acquiring St. Louis superstars. He traded for Hornsby for the 1928 season, and gave him the managerial job, and also acquired George Sisler. Well, Sisler was finished, really, and there was no real talent on the team other than Hornsby and Sisler. They were really bad, and Hornsby gave up on being the next Frank Chance. The Braves ran out of money, and traded Hornsby to, of all teams, the Cubs, managed by Joe McCarthy, who was known to just hate southerners. Apparently, Joe was able to suppress that hatred if the southerner in question was Rogers Hornsby.

The Cubs, in 1929-30, had mind-bending bad luck. In 29, Hornsby was Hornsby, but superstar catcher Gabby Hartnett got hurt early and was not able to play that season. They came close, but didn’t win. In 1930, Hartnett was back, but Hornsby missed the year with a serious injury, and they didn’t win that year, either. Well, the injury pretty much finished Hornsby as a star payer, and the Cubs came up with Billy Herman. Hornsby had taken over the managerial job when McCarthy went to the Yankees, and was actually the manager who decided to bench himself and let the rookie (Herman) play. So much for Hornsby’s alleged selfishness.

That’s the Urban Myth. However, if you read My War with Baseball, you will find that Hornsby does not mention Rickey as a factor in being traded to the Giants. He says that the problem was Sam Breadon’s miserliness. Breadon would not pay Hornsby what Hornsby would accept, so away Hornsby went. This completely collapses everything in the Urban Legend from 1926-1929.

But think about all of this. If you haven’t read My War, there is nothing – absolutely nothing – in the Urban Legend that is impossible, or even improbable. It makes perfect sense. It just turns out to not have been true, but nobody knew that until Hornsby published. Of course, this has nothing to do with ranking Hornsby as a player. It’s just a really interesting thing, to me at least, because it IS so possible without My War. One of the best, and most misleading, Urban Myths of all time, because no part of it is impossible. Thanks for putting up with all this in the middle of a MMP thread.
   6. DL from MN Posted: May 27, 2020 at 11:52 AM (#5953812)
Interesting stuff, Brock.
   7. DL from MN Posted: May 27, 2020 at 01:12 PM (#5953849)
1927 World Series
Player Name G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB  SO BA OBP SLG OPS SB CS E WPA
Earle Combs 4 16 6 5 0 0 0 2 1 2 .313 .389 .313 .701 0 0 0 0.49
Lou Gehrig 4 13 2 4 2 2 0 4 3 3 .308 .438 .769 1.207 0 0 0 0.19
Tony Lazzeri 4 15 1 4 1 0 0 2 1 4 .267 .313 .333 .646 0 01 0.01
Bob Meusel 4 17 1 2 0 0 0 1 1 7 .118 .167 .118 .284 1 0 1 -0.25
Babe Ruth 4 15 4 6 0 0 2 7 2 2 .400 .471 .800 1.271 1 0 0 0.18

Pie Traynor 4 15 1 3 1 0 0 0  0 1 .200 .200 .267 .467 0 0 1 -0.25
Paul Waner 4 15 0 5 1 0 0 3 0 1 .333 .333 .400 .733 0 0 0 0.09

Pitcher Name G GS ERA W L SV CG IP H R ER BB SO WHIP WPA
Waite Hoyt 1 1 4.91 1 0 0 0 7.1 8 4 4 1 2 1.227 0.09
Ray Kremer 1 1 3.60 0 1 0 0 5.0 5 5 2 3 1 1.600 -0.30

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