Mantle puts up one of the best seasons we've ever voted on. 52 HR, 210 OPS+, good defense.

1) Mickey Mantle - I am guessing this is unanimous
2) Early Wynn - pretty clearly the best pitcher
3) Duke Snider - top NL player by a large margin
4) Yogi Berra
5) Herb Score
6) Johnny Antonelli - top NL pitcher again
7) Willie Mays
8) Henry Aaron - new to the ballots
9) Harvey Kuenn
10) Ed Bailey - C bonus

11-17) Frank Lary, Warren Spahn, Al Kaline, Whitey Ford, Johnny Logan, Minnie Minoso, Gil McDougald

Pretty non-controversial year

1956 All Star Teams

NL

C Ed Bailey
1b Stan Musial
2b Jim Gilliam
3b Eddie Mathews
SS Ernie Banks
OF Duke Snider
OF Willie Mays
OF Hank Aaron

P Warren Spahn
P Johnny Antonelli
P Don Newcombe
P Bob Friend

RP Marv Grissom

AL

C Yogi Berra
1b Bill Skowron
2b Frank Bolling weak position in the AL
3b Ray Boone
SS Harvey Kuenn
OF Charlie Maxwell
OF Mickey Mantle
OF Al Kaline

P Early Wynn
P Herb Score
P Frank Lary
P Tom Brewer

RP Ray Narleski

Hmm. Prelim. 1. Mickey Mantle. 2. Everybody else. - Brock Hanke

1956 All Star Teams

NL

C Ed Bailey
1b Stan Musial
2b Jim Gilliam
3b Eddie Mathews
SS Ernie Banks
OF Duke Snider
OF Willie Mays
OF Hank Aaron

Funny to compare that to the team that actually started the game that I attended.

C Ed Bailey
1b Dale Long
2b Johnny Temple
3b Eddie Mathews
SS Roy McMillan
LF Frank Robinson
CF Gus Bell
RF Stan Musial

And in spite of it, the NL still won the game handily.

6) Johnny Antonelli - top NL pitcher again

Only if you use the BB-Ref WAR exclusively. By almost any other measure, the best NL pitcher than year was Don Newcombe.

27-7, 131 ERA+, a league leading 0.989 WHIP, 268 IP, and even more to the point, he was the workhorse ace in a pennant race that his team won on the final day of the season. He won both the CYA and the MVP award for a reason.

Antonelli is within half a win share of Newcombe which is less than the margin of error. Antonelli put up a 132 ERA+ and is just enough better with unearned runs. FIP likes Antonelli better too.

Snider, Jackson, Robinson and Gilliam all had excellent defensive seasons for the Dodgers. The Giants had Willie Mays, Bill White and a bunch of mediocre defenders. RField gives the Dodgers a 5 win advantage over the Giants defense.

5 - almost shocking that the NL all-stars didn't include Snider OR Mays in CF

1956 Preliminary Ballot

Batters: start with RAA (using XR runs), adjust for park, position and defense (average of TZ, and DRA) Convert adjusted RAA to wins. Add 60% of normal Runs above replacement to get WARR (wins above reduced replacement)

Pitchers: I have made a change in my evaluation system for pitchers. I have been using a BRef based defensive adjustment, but I have always been concerned that each pitcher on the a given team gets the same adj (relative to the number of BIP). So I am now using one calculation to determine RA9 WAR and a second calculation which determines a FIP war and then use a blend of those two scores to determine WARR.

Start with RAA either RA (or FIP), adjust for quality of opposition and park. Convert adjusted RAA to wins. Add 60% of normal runs above replacement to get WARR (wins above reduced replacement)

1. Mickey Mantle 10.69 WARR no one close
2. Willie Mays 7.26 WARR
3. Duke Snider 6.96 WARR
4. Junior Gilliam 6.67 WARR
5. Early Wynn 6.66 WARR
6. Hank Aaron 6.28 WARR
7. Herb Score 6.09 WARR
8. Eddie Mathews 5.80 WARR
9. Richie Ashburn 5.74 WARR
10. Al Kaline 5.64 WARR

Rest of top 20
Charlie Maxwell
Yogi Berra
Frank Robinson
Don Newcombe
Tom Brewer
Minnie Minoso
Ted Williams
Ken Boyer
Ed Bailey

@8

5 - almost shocking that the NL all-stars didn't include Snider OR Mays in CF

Apologies if this was covered in another thread but Cincinnati effectively stuffed the ballot boxes in the mid-1950s. Newspapers printed up all-Reds ballots that fans just had to sign and mail in. By 1957, about half the votes for the ASG were coming from Cincinnati. Frick finally put a stop to it that year. He overturned the selections of Bell & Post and replaced them with Mays and Aaron. Then he took away the fan voting for subsequent seasons. The fans didn't get the vote back until 1970.

Now teams set up computers in the stadiums to help fans stuff the digital ballot box.

DavidFoss - My understanding is that the Cincy fiasco did not happen until the one year of 1957. You've got the details right: The Cincy newspaper printed, every day, ballots with all the Cincy starters filled in, and encouraged the readers to send them in, there being no control on that. The only non-Cincy starter to win the vote was Musial, because Musial got so many votes from every other city that he even drowned out the Cincy guy. And Frick did replace Gus Bell and Wally Post with Mays and Aaron. And then he did take the vote away from the fans. But I have no knowledge that the Cincy papers were trying this before '57. Was this really true? If so, I just missed it, and thanks for the info.

Curiously, if you look at the 1957 Cincy lineup, it's completely populated with guys who might have made the ASG in some years, or who did in some years, including Bell and Post. They were quality players. The worst career was probably 1B George Crowe, but Crowe hit .271 with 31 homers in 1957, at the age of 36. He was a black guy, and 26 in 1947.... Now, they weren't all anywhere near their peaks in 1957, so I'm not suggesting that they would have started the game in that year (they finished 4th, and it couldn't have all been the pitching), but they weren't lousy players, or even mediocre ones. They were good players who would not have disgraced an ASG in their primes. For example, CF Gus Bell was good enough, and the Reds' minor league system had other CFs coming (Vada Pinson may have already been in the system), that the Reds traded Curt Flood to the Cardinals in 1957. They didn't think they'd need him, probably. - Brock Hanke

Yes, the Cincinnati fiasco didn't come to a head until 1957, but the few discrepancies in the 1956 list look Cincy-related as well. Banks was the starting shortstop in 1955 and he had a fine first half in 1956 (21 HR... it was his second half which was subpar). No reason for him to lose his starting job to McMillan. And Bell taking the starting job from Snider (much less Mays or Ashburn)? I don't see it. Mays didn't find his power stroke until the second half that year, but Snider was having one of his better offensive seasons.

Some of the others look defensible. Campanella was the reining MVP, but he looked awful that year and Bailey had a great start in what was a fine season. Gilliam was probably the best 2B at that time but with so many stars on that Dodger team he flew under everyone's radar. Schoendienst started the year before. Dale Long over Kluszewski is an interested non-Red pick but Long was still hitting .350 in mid-June after that amazing May where he set the consecutive-game-HR record.

You are right, the Reds had a great offense and none of these guys were Ron Coomer. Post was one-dimensional but he had a 40 HR and a 36 HR season. Bell was out of position in CF but the guy has a few 120 OPS+ seasons. A guy like that usually makes the ASG at some point -- if only as a reserve.

But this is the 50s NL. You had inner-circle HOF-ers in their primes at several positions.

David - Your comment above looks absolutely reasonable to me; it just wasn't a big enough effect to be seen by general fandom, I guess, including me at 9 years old. The only reason to have Roy McMillan over Banks would be if you're only looking at defense (Roy was probably the best defensive SS of his time - better even than Aparicio or anyone else; in a good offensive year, for him, and if the competition had off years, he could start an ASG. He could certainly be named by the manager without any serious backlash.). Bell was a decent CF when young, but I don't get Bell over Snider, either, unless Duke was having an off year or one of those years where he just seemed to be trying to piss off every sportswriter in baseball. "Everyone" "knew" that Junior Gilliam was a bench warmer - albeit one hell of a benchwarmer - for the Dodgers. That this was due to Junior's versatility, instead of being unable to play better overall baseball than, say, Billy Cox, got unnoticed. It's also possible - I don't know - that he may not have been listed on the ballot. The ballots list players by presumed position, and have to be made up early, often before the Dodgers knew where they were going to play Junior that year.

Schoendienst didn't yet have a superstar reputation in 1956; he was buried underneath all the leftover Cardinal stars from the 1940s. It's the next year, where he is regarded as the linchpin that finally brought a title to Milwaukee, that jumpstarts his reputation. You noticed Dale Long, so I give you a big fat history point for that. And yeah, if you set a record like that, fluke that it is, you're going to the ASG that year (for those of you who don't know, Dale Long hit homers in 8 straight games, which may still be the record). Its always worth remembering that if fans get to vote, that includes occasional fans, who will vote for the names they recognize, and fans of little knowledge, like the 9-year-old me, who voted 5 times in 1956, because my dad took me to 5 early games. - Brock

Relief pitchers in 1956:

1956 Prelim Ballot:

I use a combination of WAR systems to get an average WAR for each player. I use that number to get a Dan R-style salary estimation. I divide that salary by $1 million and add 3 times the average WAR to that dividend. I use a 20% bonus for catchers and do not credit postseason except as a tiebreaker.

1. Mickey Mantle (74.19)
2. Early Wynn (42.11) – MM Pitcher
3. Yogi Berra (40.25)
4. Herb Score (38.53)
5. Willie Mays (38.21)- NL MMP
6. Duke Snider (37.86)
7. Hank Aaron (35.31)
8. Frank Lary (32.97)
9. Al Kaline (31.98)
10. Frank Robinson (31.28)

11-15. Ashburn, Minoso, Gilliam, Bailey, Antonelli (top NL pitcher).

My usual assortment of systems.
10% catcher bonus; no postseason factored in.

1 MANTLE, MICKEY 10000
2 WYNN, EARLY 6364
3 SNIDER, DUKE 6071
4 BERRA, YOGI 6009
5 SCORE, HERB 5875
6 AARON, HANK 5652
7 MAYS, WILLIE 5377
8 MINOSO, MINNIE 5270
9 KALINE, AL 5025
10 NEWCOMBE, DON 5015

11 LARY, FRANK 4950
12 ROBINSON, FRANK 4909
13 BREWER, TOM 4902
14 ANTONELLI, JOHNNY 4876
15 MAXWELL, CHARLIE 4855

Iieiam - You may have that Mantle guy underrated a bit. Surely he was more than twice the player that Frank Lary was. - Brock

Prelim 1956 ballot:

1) Mickey
2) Early "Got the" Wynn
3) Herb "Pitched to the" Score
4) Yogi
5) the Duke
6) Willie
7) Hank Aaron
8) Al Kaline
9) Don Newcombe
10)F. Robinson

With apologies to (just missed the top 10): T. Williams, S. Musial (can't believe this year was so deep these guys couldn't crack the top 10!), J. Antonelli, W. Spahn, F. Lary, B. Lemon, W. Ford, M. Minoso, C. Maxwell, J. Gilliam, K. Boyer, E. Mathews, R. Ashburn.

Iieiam - You may have that Mantle guy underrated a bit. Surely he was more than twice the player that Frank Lary was. - Brock

Brock - given that Lary was known as "The Yankee Killer" I would think that would give him a little extra value. Too bad he wasn't playing for the Dodgers, where that particular skill could have really come in handy each October!

Prelim 1956 ballot

1. Mick
2. Early Wynn
3. Herb Score
4. Duke Snider
5. Yogi Berra
6. Willie Mays
7. Hank Aaron
8. Frank Robinson
9. Al Kaline
10 Don Newcombe

11-15 - Spahn, Antonelli Minoso, Ted Williams, Whitey Ford

1956 World Series

Player  G  AB  R  H  2B  3B  HR  RBI  BB  SO  BA  OBP  SLG  OPS  SB  CS  E
Berra 7  25  5  9  2  0  3  10  4  1  .360  .448  .800  1.248  0  0  0
Mantle 7  24  6  6  1  0  3  4  6  5  .250  .400  .667  1.067  1  0  0
McDougald 7  21  0  3  0  0  0  1  3  6  .143  .240  .143  .383  0  0  0 

Gilliam 7  24  2  2  0  0  0  2  7  3  .083  .290  .083  .374  1  1  0
Snider 7  23  5  7  1  0  1  4  6  8  .304  .433  .478  .912  0  0  0

Pitcher G  GS  ERA  W  L  SV  CG  IP  H  R  ER  BB  SO  WHIP
WFord 2  2  5.25  1  1  0  1  12.0  14  8  7  2  8  1.333  

Newcombe 2  2  21.21  0  1  0  0  4.2  11  11  11  3  4  3.000  
Maglie 2  2  2.65  1  1  0  2  17.0  14  5  5  6  15  1.176

I have Snider just ahead of Berra before I look at the postseason. Berra clearly outhit Snider in the World Series and caught a perfect game too. I'm going to have to slide Berra ahead of Snider on the final ballot.

Mr C - Dan R has Berra worth 4.7 wins above positional average and Kaline at 3.6. In WARP2 they are at 5.8 and 6.0 but if I understand your system correctly you're using a replacement value higher than WARP2. This is before any positional adjustment for catchers. How do you keep Berra off your ballot?

1956 Prelim- AL Only

1. Mickey Mantle, CF, New York Yankees- "Wow!" That is all.
2. Yogi Berra, C, New York Yankees- 142 OPS+ and 108 runs created on top of +5 defense at catcher
3. Ted Williams, LF, Boston Red Sox- an off-year for Williams is still a 172 OPS+ with 121 RC
4. Early Wynn, P, Cleveland Indians- 277 innings pitched to go with a 154 ERA+
5. Herb Score, P, Cleveland Indians- the famous phenom put up a 166 ERA+ in 249 innings
6. Minnie Minoso, LF, Chicago White Sox- the should-be Hall of Famer had a 149 OPS+ and 130 RC
7. Al Kaline, RF, Detroit Tigers
8. Frank Lary, P, Detroit Tigers
9. Harvey Kuenn, SS, Detroit Tigers
10. Charlie Maxwell, LF, Detroit Tigers- the cluster of Tigers will probably all fall short of the final ballot

The usual blend of War systems. Players get ten points for finishing first, nine for second, eight for third and so on.No weighting. No adjustments. No post season credit.
Comments come with final ballot.

Listed by % of total possible points:

1-Mantle:100%
2-Snider: 73.33%
3-Wynn: 55.00%
4-Aaron: 53.33%
5-Berra: 35.00%
6-Mays: 28.33%
7-Score: 25.00%
8-Kaline: 21.67%
9-Saturnino Orestes Armas(Arrieta)Minoso: 13.33%
9-Spahn: 13.33% (Ties with MM)

The Best of the Rest, all conveniently tied at 8.33%: Matthews, Newcombe, Williams, Antonelli, Pierce

1956 Prelim- NL Only

1. Duke Snider, CF, Brooklyn Dodgers- leads the senior circuit in both OPS+ (155) and RC (128); adds another +12 on defense
2. Willie Mays, CF, New York Giants- +13 on defense to go with 146 OPS+ and 118 RC
3. Hank Aaron, RF, Milwaukee Braves- +15 on defense but in right field instead of center
4. Ernie Banks, SS, Chicago Cubs- 136 OPS+ for Mr. Cub
5. Eddie Mathews, 3B, Milwaukee Braves- 143 OPS+ and 114 RC
6. Frank Robinson, RF, Cincinnati Reds- 143 OPS+ and 121 RC but behind Mathews' because of def. position
7. Warren Spahn, P, Milwaukee Braves- the best pitcher in the NL, but not by much
8. Don Newcombe, P, Brooklyn Dodgers
9. Bob Friend, P, Pittsburgh Pirates- maybe not the best quality (108 ERA+) but definitely the best in quantity (314 innings)
10. Stan Lopata, C, Philadelphia Phillies- a career year with a 137 OPS+

Any thoughts on the difference in league quality for this season?

DL

The two WAR systems that I refer to most often are fangraphs and baseball reference so I checked to see how they compare to my system for Berra and Kaline. On fangraphs, Berra has 6.4 WAR and Kaline has 6.3 WAR. At baseball reference Kaline has 6.5 WAR and Berra has 6.3 WAR (both being the second and third best WAR in the AL). Although I use different methods for calculating RAA, fielding runs and have a different replacement level, my latest scores are Kaline 5.6 WARR and Berra 5.5 WARR. I think it is obvious that Kaline and Berra are very close and having either one of them ahead of the other is very defensible.

Having said that, I had tweaked some of my numbers to get my latest ranking, and Berra indeed does move to 10 on my ranking list; so he will be on my final ballot.

I currently have Score ranked above Snider and I think I will change that for the final ballot. I dont see the 2nd best pitcher in the AL being better than the best NL position player,

Wrong thread

Prelim ballot, no postseason bonus but in some cases a small bonus for being part of a Pennant contender

1. Mantle-easy #1
2. Snider
3. Score
4. Wynn
5. Berra
6. Aaron
7. Robinson-excellent rookie year
8. Kaline
9. Mays-along with Mantle, Aaron, and Robinson, Mays will dominate the top 10 in the coming years
10.Miñoso-The more I research Miñoso, the more impressed I am. He had a great bounce back year in '56 after having his skull fractured by an accidental Bob Grim beaning the year before. Despite the injury, he only missed 15 games.

Honorable mention: Williams, Lary, and my top NL pitcher is Newcombe

1956 Prelim

1. Mickey Mantle, CF, New York Yankees: "Wow!" That is all.
2. Yogi Berra, C, New York Yankees: 142 OPS+ and 108 runs created on top of +5 defense at catcher
3. Duke Snider, CF, Brooklyn Dodgers: leads the senior circuit in both OPS+ (155) and RC (128); adds another +12 on defense
4. Willie Mays, CF, New York Giants: +13 on defense to go with 146 OPS+ and 118 RC3.
5. Ted Williams, LF, Boston Red Sox: an off-year for Williams is still a 172 OPS+ with 121 RC; playing time and defensive position keep him behind Snider and Mays
6. Early Wynn, P, Cleveland Indians: 277 innings pitched to go with a 154 ERA+
7. Hank Aaron, RF, Milwaukee Braves: 151 OPS+; +15 on defense in right field
8. Herb Score, P, Cleveland Indians: the famous phenom put up a 166 ERA+ in 249 innings
9. Ernie Banks, SS, Chicago Cubs: 136 OPS+ for Mr. Cub
10. Minnie Minoso, LF, Chicago White Sox: the should-be Hall of Famer had a 149 OPS+ and 130 RC; just beats out Eddie Mathews for the last ballot spot.

11. Eddie Mathews, 3B, Milwaukee Braves- 143 OPS+ and 114 RC
12. Frank Robinson, RF, Cincinnati Reds- 143 OPS+ and 121 RC but behind Mathews' because of def. position
13. Al Kaline, RF, Detroit Tigers
14. Frank Lary, P, Detroit Tigers
15. Warren Spahn, P, Milwaukee Braves- the best pitcher in the NL, but not by much