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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Monday, April 23, 2012Most Meritorious Player: 1972 DiscussionThe 1972 strike gave each team an uneven schedule; remember that when considering your ballots. Major League Baseball arrives in Dallas, TX and leaves Washington DC. Carlton Fisk and John Matlack make impressive debuts. Josh Gibson and Buck Leonard are elected to the Hall of Fame along with Sandy Koufax, Yogi Berra and Early Wynn. The Tigers, Athletics, Reds and Pirates made the playoffs with the A’s beating the Reds in a World Series I remember from Roger Angell’s vivid description in Five Seasons. Voting will end on May 23rd 2012.
Player SH Win BB-ref
Shares WAR
Johnny Bench 39.5 9.1
Joe Morgan 37.9 10.0
Dick Allen 41.0 9.3
Billy Williams 32.2 6.0
Carlton Fisk 32.1 7.1
Bobby Murcer 35.3 7.1
Cesar Cedeno 33.4 8.2
Chris Speier 24.2 6.1
Bobby Grich 22.4 5.8
John Mayberry 27.2 5.1
Jim Wynn 28.4 6.1
Pete Rose 31.2 6.3
Joe Rudi 29.1 5.9
Bert Campaneris 20.9 4.0
Mike Epstein 26.9 5.6
Rich Hebner 22.5 5.4
Reggie Jackson 26.4 5.5
Rod Carew 22.1 4.4
Dusty Baker 22.9 4.4
Bobby Tolan 21.7 5.0
Roy White 25.5 4.4
Willie Davis 25.9 5.1
Graig Nettles 20.2 4.1
Willie Stargell 25.7 4.1
Carlos May 29.1 5.1
Reggie Smith 25.9 4.3
Roberto Clemente 15.9 4.4
Darrell Evans 20.0 3.5
Ron Santo 21.6 5.1
Bobby Bonds 22.7 5.1
Nate Colbert 27.5 5.2
Thurman Munson 20.2 2.5
Ted Simmons 24.0 4.2
Sal Bando 22.7 4.9
Tony Perez 24.3 5.3
George Scott 20.6 4.5
Ken Berry 22.2 3.1
Pitchers
Steve Carlton 39.3 12.4
Gaylord Perry 38.6 10.4
Bob Gibson 27.2 8.1
Wilbur Wood 28.9 8.9
Catfish Hunter 23.2 5.5
Mickey Lolich 26.3 6.3
Phil Niekro 21.8 6.0
John Matlack 21.7 6.4
Don Sutton 23.8 5.8
Jim Palmer 23.9 5.6
Nolan Ryan 24.3 6.2
Tom Seaver 21.2 6.0
Claude Osteen 21.1 6.5
Ferguson Jenkins 21.4 6.2
Burt Hooton 16.6 5.3
Rick Wise 19.8 5.4
Roger Nelson 16.7 4.4
Luis Tiant 18.6 5.2
Bert Blyleven 19.3 4.3
Mike Marshall 21.2 4.2
Tug McGraw 21.0 3.8
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BookmarksYou must be logged in to view your Bookmarks. Hot TopicsRanking Center Fielders in the Hall of Merit - Discussion Thread
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1. DL from MN Posted: April 23, 2012 at 01:01 PM (#4113691)1. Saturate Before Using--Jackson Browne
2. Fleetwood Mac’s Greatest Hits (import). "Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac."
3. Living In the Past--Jethro Tull. A greatest hits package. I don't ordinarily rate hits packages this high but both of these contained a lot of tunes that had not been released previously in the U.S.
4. Rising --Mark-Almond. Mark-Almond was also the best concert of the year.
5. Eat A Peach--Allman Brothers Band
6. Thick As A Brick--Jethro Tull
7. Paul Simon
8. Give It Up--Bonnie Raitt
9. Of Rivers and Religion--John Fahey
10. Sunset Ride--Zephyr
11. The Captain and Me--Doobie Brothers
12. A Tribute to Woody Guthrie--various artists, including Dylan doing "I Ain't Got No Home"
13. Fragile--Yes
14. Harvest--Neil Young
15. John Prine
16. Ace--Bob Weir. "Mexicali Blues"!
17. Hobo’s Lullaby--Arlo Guthrie. "City of New Orleans"!
18. The Inner Mounting Flame--Mahavishnu Orchestra
19. Just Another Band from L.A.--Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention
20. Kongos--John Kongos
A definite shift from rock 'n roll to folk this year. As a matter of fact, the air audibly came out of the rock 'n roll balloon, kinda like my Minnesota Twins a year earlier.
1. Dick Allen
2. Steve Carlton
3. Johnny Bench
4. Joe Morgan
5. Bobby Murcer
6. Cesar Cedeno
7. Billy Williams
8. Gaylord Perry unless I discount him for CHEATING!
9. Willie Stargell
10. Joe Rudi
11. Carl Fisk
12. Jim Wynn
13. Pete Rose
14. Wilbur Wood
15. Luis Tiant
HM. Bobby Tolan, Tony Oliva, Bob Gibson, Carlos May, Lee May, Claude Osteen
1) Steve Carlton - wow
2) Joe Morgan
3) Johnny Bench - C bonus
4) Gaylord Perry
5) Dick Allen - decent glove this season
6) Carlton Fisk - C bonus
7) Billy Williams
8) Bobby Murcer
9) Cesar Cedeno
10) Chris Speier
11) Bob Gibson
12) Wilbur Wood
13-14) Bobby Grich, John Mayberry,
15-21) Mickey Lolich, Pete Rose, Joe Rudi, Bert Campaneris, Mike Epstein, Rich Hebner, Reggie Jackson
22) Rod Carew
I will have to use playoff credit to sort out 15-21. Lolich was pretty good in the postseason which may get him on the ballot.
I'd like to table this conversation until after the ballot thread shows up.
Randy Newman - Sail Away
Little Feat - Sailin' Shoes
Maybe the peak year for Rock n' Roll - where the complexities of the songs and themes rose to meet the instrumental virtuosity.
In Carlton's first season with Philadelphia, he led the league in wins (27), complete games (30), strikeouts (310), and ERA (1.97), despite playing for a team whose final record was 59–97. His 1972 performance earned him the Hickok Belt as the top professional athlete of the year. His having won 46% of his team's victories is a record in modern major league history. Carlton attributed his success to his grueling training regime, which included Eastern martial arts techniques, the most famous of which was twisting his fist to the bottom of a 5 gallon bucket of rice.
Some highlights of Carlton's 1972 season included starting the season with 5 wins and 1 loss, then losing 5 games in a row, during which the Phillies scored only 10 runs. [7] At this point he began a 15-game winning streak. After it ended at a 20–6 record, he finished the final third of the year with 7 more wins and 4 losses, ending with 27 wins and 10 losses. Since he completed 30 of 41 starts, the 1972 Phillies rarely needed the bullpen when Steve Carlton pitched.
During the 18 games of the winning streak (3 were no-decisions), Carlton pitched 155 innings, allowed 103 hits and 28 runs (only 17 in the 15 winning games), issued 39 walks, and had 140 strikeouts. From July 19, 1972 to August 13, 1972 he pitched six complete games, won six games, allowed only 1 earned run, and threw four shutouts. Over this period he pitched 56 innings, allowing only one unearned run. [8] Steve had three pitches, a rising fastball, a legendary slider, and a long looping curve ball. Baseball commentators during 1972 regularly remarked that Steve's slider was basically unhittable. He was also a good hitter for a pitcher. At times he pinch-hit for the Phillies during 1972
"Steve Carlton's Long Winning Streak in '72 Still Amazing" by Ted Silary from Baseball Digest Nov 1992
http://books.google.com/books/about/Baseball_Digest.html?id=8LcDAAAAMBAJ
1. Steve Carlton - leads in all 4 measures (pWOPA, pWORL, eWOPA, eWORL), one of the greatest seasons of the last 60 years. Since 1972, only Dwight Gooden's 1985 and a couple of Barry Bonds seasons have arguments for being better than Carlton's 1972.
2. Joe Morgan - he's 2nd in all 4 of my measures. This is the first season where Joe Morgan became JOE MORGAN.
There are then 5 other guys who are top 10 in all 4 measures. Not necessarily in order, they are:
Johnny Bench - his postseason pushes him up to a pretty solid #3. To answer #11, I think some catcher bonus might make some sense, although in this case, I can't see giving Bench enough to put him ahead of Morgan.
Gaylord Perry - top 5 in all 4 measures I'm looking at. Definitely the best pitcher in the AL, probably the best player (in the AL).
Catfish Hunter - postseason helps him, but my system really likes him even based only on his regular-season.
Cesar Cedeno - #3 in eWORL, #4 in eWOPA; he falls a bit when player wins are tied to team wins
Bob Gibson - his last great season
That's 7 guys. The 5 players who will probably round out my ballot, again, not necessarily in order, are:
Dick Allen - #4 in pWOPA, #5 in pWORL; I could see slotting him ahead of several guys I've already named (perhaps as high as #5 right below Perry).
Bobby Murcer - as I noted in putting him on my 1971 ballot, my system really likes his defense in 1972 (and 1970)
Carlton Fisk - he actually ranks slightly ahead of Johnny Bench in context-neutral wins over average (eWOPA)
Chris Speier - best SS in MLB this season
Billy Williams - best corner outfielder in MLB
Honorable mention guys, although I can't see putting any of them on my ballot:
Jim Palmer - tying player wins to team wins, my system really likes Jim Palmer - he did a great job for a lot of his career of doing what he needed to do to win games
Claude Osteen - best hitting pitcher in 1972 helps, but not quite enough
Don Sutton - very, very good; just misses my ballot
The positions that aren't represented in the guys I just named are 3B - the best in my system is Richie Hebner, who was very good, but not top 12 in MLB good, RF - best was Jimmy Wynn, who was a bit better than Hebner, but not enough to really get close to a ballot, and RP (if you view that as its own position) - best was probably Terry Forster.
I can't find that on BB-ref. (I understand you aren't making the claim, just repeating the wikipedia article).
No, he didn't. He did once in 1979 and once in 1984, but that's it for his Phillie career.
As long as we're getting into pop culture, it was also the year of The Godfather.
And Aguirre: The Wrath of God, Cabaret, Deliverence, Play It Again Sam, Ulzana's Raid, Frenzy, Sleuth, Slaughterhouse Five (movie, not book), and 1776.
Rk Player WAR ERA+ SV WPA WHIP GF GS IP Age Tm Lg W L ERA OPS+1 Mike Marshall 4.2 198 18 3.263 1.112 56 0 116.0 29 MON NL 14 8 1.78 60
2 Tug McGraw 3.9 198 27 6.519 1.047 47 0 106.0 27 NYM NL 8 6 1.70 61
3 Jim Brewer 3.3 267 17 2.424 0.843 41 0 78.1 34 LAD NL 8 7 1.26 43
4 Sparky Lyle 3.1 154 35 4.387 1.050 56 0 107.2 27 NYY AL 9 5 1.92 71
5 Terry Forster 2.5 141 29 2.045 1.190 45 0 100.0 20 CHW AL 6 5 2.25 68
6 Dave Giusti 2.3 175 22 2.163 1.058 44 0 74.2 32 PIT NL 7 4 1.93 62
7 Darold Knowles 2.0 210 11 1.409 1.310 29 0 65.2 30 OAK AL 5 1 1.37 84
8 Ramon Hernandez 2.0 202 14 3.269 1.029 31 0 70.0 31 PIT NL 5 0 1.67 53
9 Clay Carroll 1.6 144 37 4.759 1.260 54 0 96.0 31 CIN NL 6 4 2.25 99
10 Paul Lindblad 1.5 116 9 0.037 1.244 33 0 99.2 30 TEX AL 5 8 2.62 107
11 Cy Acosta 1.4 206 5 1.220 1.212 17 0 34.2 25 CHW AL 3 0 1.56 78
12 Ted Abernathy 1.4 179 5 -0.193 1.080 25 0 58.1 39 KCR AL 3 4 1.70 72
13 George Culver 1.4 110 2 0.032 1.192 16 0 97.1 28 HOU NL 6 2 3.05 81
The big difference is positional average. I actually have catchers having a higher positional average in 1972 (.495) than second basemen (.490) (note: those are winning percentages). Here's my positional averages by season, which are just calculated empirically (i.e., the overall winning percentage for players compiled while they were catchers in 1972 was .495) as explained here.
Per BB-Ref, in 1972, catchers batted .242/.311/.353 while second basemen hit .248/.310/.322. Catchers in 1972 included Bench (OPS+ of 166), Fisk (162), Bill Freehan (122), and Ted Simmons (127). It was just a very good time for good-hitting catchers (and a "good" time for weak-hitting middle infielders).
In terms of Morgan v. Bench, I have Morgan being better on offense (his OPS+ is lower but is more OBP-heavy, so I have him as both a better batter and baserunner), and Bench a better fielder. Bench has a better winning percentage than Morgan (.616 to .606 for pWins, including postseason), but Morgan is being compared to a lower positional average and Morgan also has about 6 more player decisions (40 - 34): Morgan had more PAs 680 - 653, and 2B make a lot more fielding plays than catchers. Given Bench's advantage in winning percentage, I could see giving enough of a bonus to push Bench past Morgan, although I'm personally not inclined to do so.
One thing that pushes Forster to the top of my list of relief pitchers is his hitting. Terry Forster was a crazy-good hitter. In 1972, he only had 22 plate appearances, but he hit .526/.550/.526 and he even stole a base! Not enough to make my ballot, but his hitting is definitely worth taking into account.
Rank Final Name (pos) PA/Inn bWAR bWAR/650_200 Stats OPS/ERA+ Fldg Runs Adjustment
1 10.41 Steve Carlton (P) 346 12.4 7.17 3.56 (+41) 182
2 9.99 Johnny Bench (C) 653 9.1 9.06 .270/.379/.541 166 13 10%
3 9.83 Joe Morgan (2B) 680 10 9.56 .292/.417/.435 149 7
4 9.54 Dick Allen (1B) 609 9.3 9.93 .308/.420/.603 199 -1
(big gap)
5 8.76 Gaylord Perry (P) 342 10.4 6.08 2.85 (+17) 170
6 8.6 Carlton Fisk (C) 514 7.1 8.98 .293/.370/.538 162 1 10%
7 8.33 Cesar Cedeno (CF) 625 8.2 8.53 .320/.385/.537 162 2
(big gap)
8 7.31 Wilbur Wood (P) 377 8.9 4.72 2.61 (-7) 126
9 7.24 Bob Gibson (P) 278 8.1 5.83 2.36 (+68) 139
10 7.08 Bobby Murcer (CF) 654 7.1 7.06 .292/.361/.537 169 2
11 7.07 Chris Speier (SS) 658 6.1 6.03 .269/.361/.400 115 9 +1
12 6.81 Bobby Grich (SS/2B/1B) 528 5.8 7.14 .278/.358/.415 127 10 +0.5
13 6.79 Jim Wynn (RF) 652 6.1 6.08 .273/.389/.470 146 -7 (0) +0.7
(gap)
14 6.5 Billy Williams (LF) 650 6 6 .333/.398/.606 171 -10 (-5) +0.5
15 6.18 Reggie Jackson (CF/LF) 573 5.5 6.24 .265/.350/473 149 0 (+5) +0.4
16 6.14 Joe Rudi (LF) 653 5.9 5.87 .305/.345/.486 151 +3 (+8) +.25
17 6.05 Mike Epstein (1B) 537 5.6 6.78 .270/.376/.490 163 1
18 6.03 Pete Rose (LF) 731 6.3 5.6 .307/.382/.407 134 12
19 5.99 Claude Osteen (P) 252 6.5 5.16 1.45 (+102) 127
20 5.96 John Matlack (P) 244 6.4 5.25 2.38 (+9) 145
21 5.65 Bill Freehan (C) 430 4.3 6.5 .262/.354/.401 122 1 10%
22 5.56 Tony Perez (1B) 576 5.3 5.98 .283/.349/.497 145 5
23 5.5 Nolan Ryan (P) 284 6.2 4.37 2.10 (+10) 128
24 5.47 Ferguson Jenkins (P) 289 6.2 4.29 2.97 (+25) 119
25 5.46 Tom Seaver (P) 262 6 4.58 3.23 (+41) 115
26 5.41 Carlos May (LF) 615 5.1 5.39 .308/.405/.438 148 -10 (-8)
27 5.36 Mike Marshall (RP) 116 4.2 7.24 2.02 198
28 5.34 Phil Niekro (P) 282 6 4.26 3.09 (+24) 124
29 5.21 Tug McGraw (RP) 106 3.9 7.36 2.3 198
30 5.21 Don Sutton (P) 273 5.8 4.25 3.29 (-9) 162
I then make adjustments:
10% for catchers; even though the per 650AB adjustment helps them, I still think it is not enough, and it seems that getting 653AB out of Bench is really, really valuable; again, no real reason for 10% specifically, I just think bWar undervalues catchers, even with the positional adjustment [I think a 7 win/500AB catcher like Fisk is in the same league as a ~9 win player at any other position]
+1 win for shortstops (70s only), based on DanR's work - having a 115 OPS+ in 1972 from SS was really damned good. (half win adjustment for Grich, who SS half the year)
Adjusting fielding numbers that are totally out of whack with the previous 1 and subsequent 1 years (more than +/- 5 from both years), under the assumption that fielding has a lot of noise, but that three years of data is valuable. In general, however, I do think the bWar fielding numbers pass the smell test. Upwardly adjusted Wynn, Williams, Jackson, Rudi, and May.
Do not look at postseason (seems unfair to Ernie Banks and company). Do not have a league strength adjustment; I thought that the AL had mostly closed the gap; is this true; if not would want to include it.
EDIT: And Kiko, thanks for that explanation! Makes sense to me (I have Bench ahead still, but they are so close, that really any slight change with assumptions will flip them); and wow, did the 70s have lousy infielders!
Morgan had 680 PA to Bench's 653 (adv = 27 PA). This is primarily a function of batting order.
Studies and tradition have said it is optimal to place your best hitters at spots 1 thru 4; those spots are roughly equal in importance. Leadoff hitters will get 1/3 more PA (about 6% more) per game than #4 batters. =54 PA over 162 games. But overall, their valou eis the same. This is because the #4 batters PAs are about 6% more valuable PER PA than the leadoff man's (since, you know, they have more guys on base when they hit, which is why Bench had 50+ more RBI).
I suspect Bench's WAR or WS or whatever ought to be increased relative to Morgan's so that their EFFECTIVE offensive time (PA) is roughly equal.
"The high point is 1974, when Marshall pitched in 106 games."
It's not the games, which for some reason everyone talks about.
It's the innings.
208.3 innings, all in relief. In one season.
Plenty of relievers these days pitch in more than half as many games.
But half as many innings?
Player G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
Campaneris 2 7 3 3 0 0 0 0 1 0 .429 .556 .429 .984
Epstein 5 16 1 3 0 0 1 1 4 5 .188 .381 .375 .756
Reggie 5 18 1 5 1 0 0 2 1 6 .278 .316 .333 .649
Bando 5 20 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 3 .200 .200 .200 .400
Rudi 5 20 1 5 1 0 0 2 1 4 .250 .273 .300 .573
Freehan 3 12 2 3 1 0 1 3 0 1 .250 .250 .583 .833
Pitcher G GS ERA W L SV CG IP H ER BB SO WHIP
Hunter 2 2 1.17 0 0 0 0 15.1 10 2 5 9 0.978
Lolich 2 2 1.42 0 1 0 0 19.0 14 3 5 10 1.000
Player G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
Rose 5 20 1 9 4 0 0 2 1 2 .450 .476 .650 1.126
Bench 5 18 3 6 1 1 1 2 1 3 .333 .350 .667 1.017
Morgan 5 19 5 5 0 0 2 3 1 2 .263 .300 .579 .879
Tolan 5 21 3 5 1 1 0 4 0 4 .238 .238 .381 .619
Perez 5 20 0 4 1 0 0 2 0 7 .200 .200 .250 .450
Clemente 5 17 1 4 1 0 1 2 3 5 .235 .350 .471 .821
Hebner 5 16 2 3 1 0 0 1 1 3 .188 .278 .250 .528
Stargell 5 16 1 1 1 0 0 1 2 5 .063 .167 .125 .292
Player G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
Rudi 7 25 1 6 0 0 1 1 2 5 .240 .321 .360 .681
Bando 7 26 2 7 1 0 0 1 2 5 .269 .321 .308 .629
Campaneris 7 28 1 5 0 0 0 0 1 4 .179 .207 .179 .385
Epstein 6 16 1 0 0 0 0 0 5 3 .000 .238 .000 .238
Perez 7 23 3 10 2 0 0 2 4 4 .435 .500 .522 1.022
Bench 7 23 4 6 1 0 1 1 5 5 .261 .393 .435 .828
Rose 7 28 3 6 0 0 1 2 4 4 .214 .313 .321 .634
Tolan 7 26 2 7 1 0 0 6 1 4 .269 .296 .308 .604
Morgan 7 24 4 3 2 0 0 1 6 3 .125 .300 .208 .508
Pitcher G GS ERA W L SV CG IP H ER BB SO WHIP
Hunter 3 2 2.81 2 0 0 0 16.0 12 5 6 11 1.125
1. Steve Carlton - one of the best seasons in the modern era
2. Joe Morgan - a smidge ahead of Bench due to Morgan's better WPA stats
3. Johnny Bench - great season for a great defensive catcher
4. Dick Allen - led league in most offensive stats in his first AL season
5. Gaylord Perry - 343 IP with a 1.92 ERA is pretty darned good
6. Cesar Cedeno - great offensive season in Astrodome
7. Wilbur Wood - 377 IP and 49 games started (most GS since Jack Chesbro in 1904)
8. Bobby Murcer - his best season
9. Carlton Fisk - great rookie season
10. Chris Speier - good hitting stats in an era of woeful shortstops
11. Billy Williams - led NL in SLG, OPS+, BAvg, and WPA
12. Mickey Lolich - 327 IP with 2.50 ERA
13. Jimmy Wynn - another great season largely masked by Astrodome
14. Bob Gibson - last of his great seasons
15. Joe Rudi - memorable WS catch was memorable
16. Pete Rose - strike cost him 200 hits
17. Bobby Grich - an all around very good season
18. Don Sutton - led NL with 9 shutouts
19. Jim Hunter - Oakland was 28-9 in his starts
20. John Mayberry - first season with the Royals
21-25. Willie Stargell, Richie Hebner, Carlos May, Jon Matlack, Reggie Jackson
26-30. Willie Davis, Nolan Ryan, Mike Epstein, Nate Colbert, Tom Seaver
Oliva? He played in 10 games?!?
1. Steve Carlton was head and shoulders above anyone else.
2 and 3. Gaylord Perry and Wilbur Wood. Perry's raw stats were certainly superior to Wood's, but Perry played in front of an above average defense, while the White Sox were probably the poorest defense in the league, leaving both pitchers almost equal (Wood's adj W% was .668 and Perry's was .671). The question then becomes whether Wood's quantity is enough to put him ahead of Perry.
4. Bob Gibson A very solid season. Good hitting puts him ahead of the best position players.
The rest of the list is very consistent with the other lists
5. Johnny Bench
6. Joe Morgan
7. Dick Allen
8. Ceasar Cedeno
10 Catfish Hunter
11. Carlton Fisk
12. Pete Rose
13 to 16 Chris Speier, Mickey Lolich, Luis Tiant, Don Sutton
17, 18 Billy Williams, Roy White
19, 20 Rick Wise, Ferguson Jenkins
1. Steve Carlton
2. Johnny Bench -- Substantial bonus for playing essentially every day at C.
3. Joe Morgan -- led league in OBP
4. Gaylord Perry -- AL's best pitcher; astoundingly, not far off Carlton's pace
5. Dick Allen
6. Wilbur Wood -- expected to put Gibson in this spot, but the IP advantage is too huge
7. Bob Gibson -- last great season
8. Carlton Fisk -- Catcher bonus; played almost as much as Cedeno.
9. Bobby Murcer -- ahead of Cedeno on defense & PT
10. Cesar Cedeno -- Missed some time; won a GG while compiling 0 dWAR -- I'm willing to stipulate that he probably had defensive value not found in the numbers
11. Mickey Lolich
12. Pete Rose! -- played every day; good defender in this period.
Also considered: Wynn, Speier, Rudi, Hunter.
Some RA+ equivalent records, with inherited runner adjustments for relief pitchers. Basically "hit like a pitcher" in a fairly unremarkable way unless otherwise noted.
Perry: 27-11
Wood: 25-17, worse hitter than some (yes, it was that many innings)
Hunter: 21-12
Lolich: 22-14
Ryan: 19-12
Tiant: 14-6 (swingman role) (bad hitter)
Lyle: 8-4; 12-6 with inherited runner adjustment
Carlton: 28-10, fairly good hitter
Gibson: 20-11, good hitter (including 5 HR)
Sutton: 20-10, worse hitter than some
Jenkins: 19-13
Matlack: 16-11
Niekro: 18-13
Seaver: 17-12, fairly good hitter
Marshall: 10-3; 14-5 with inherited runner adjustment
McGraw: 8-3; 12-5 with inherited runner adjustment
Brewer: 7-2; 9-4 with inherited runner adjustment (Brewer wasn't all that good with inherited runners)
Yes, Perry also had an amazing year, very nearly up there with Carlton.
2) Ziggy Stardust
3) Transformer
3) Exile on Main St
5) Pink Moon
6) On the Corner
7) Ege Bamyasi
8) Harvest
9) Talking Book
10) Music of My Mind
11) Number 1 Record
12) Rocky Mountain High - which I've probably heard more than the rest combined.
Well, more accurately I can say I've finally started working on my ballot.
as for 1972 music, for me it's GOT to be:
The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders From Mars.
No contest.
In no particular order, just yet:
"Pink Moon", Nick Drake
"Harvest", Neil Young
"Exile on Main St", Rolling Stones
"Roxy Music", Roxy Music
"Back Stabbers", O'Jays
"Transformer", Lou Reed
Pop music was still in the grip of the long post-hippie-bullshit fade, struggling to break out, still too in love with its own bloat. "Kick Out the Jams" was four years in the past, "Fun House" had already dropped, but "Raw Power", Johnny Thunders, the Ramones, the New York Dolls, and most of the music that wasn't mind-blowingly awful was still at least a year in the future. The deleterious effects of the Beatles lingered, and nobody had come around to give music a kick in the balls yet.
Rank revisionism.
Prelim (no postseason bonuses)
1) Steve Carlton
2) Gaylord Perry
3) Joe Morgan
4) Johnny Bench
5) Dick Allen
6) Bobby Murcer
7) Bob Gibson
8) Carlton Fisk
9) Cesar Cedeno
10) Billy Williams
11) Pete Rose
12) Wilbur Wood
It's not revisionism. It's that the Beatles were not that good.
It's the very essence of revisionism. "Not that good" is just not a factual observation. It is a minority opinion. For 48 years the consensus is they're the greatest. It doesn't even matter if they were (the greatest) or no. History says they were. Revisionists say no they're not. You can look it up.
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