User Comments, Suggestions, or Complaints | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertising
Page rendered in 0.4394 seconds
59 querie(s) executed
You are here > Home > Hall of Merit > Discussion
| ||||||||
Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Tuesday, January 26, 2016Most Meritorious Player: 1990 DiscussionThe season started late due to a lockout. The Reds swept the A’s in the World Series. Vote for 13 this year. Player SH WS BBR WAR Rickey Henderson 39.7 9.9 Barry Bonds 34.6 9.7 Len Dykstra 32.6 8.9 Cal Ripken Jr 24.1 7.5 Alan Trammell 25.4 6.7 Barry Larkin 24.1 5.6 Ryne Sandberg 33.5 7.1 Darryl Strawberry 25.6 6.3 Cecil Fielder 30.0 6.5 Jose Canseco 26.2 5.4 Brett Butler 28.1 5.0 Matt Williams 23.9 5.0 Julio Franco 25.7 6.8 Bip Roberts 22.3 5.7 Mark McGwire 25.6 5.7 Darren Daulton 22.2 3.9 Carlton Fisk 28.0 4.9 Lance Parrish 21.9 4.5 Fred McGriff 29.1 5.2 Andy Van Slyke 23.3 4.3 Ozzie Smith 10.8 3.6 Eddie Murray 30.3 5.1 Dave Magadan 23.7 4.6 Kal Daniels 24.9 4.3 Edgar Martinez 19.2 5.5 Tony Fernandez 23.0 4.5 Bill Doran 22.4 3.4 Jesse Barfield 19.7 5.2 Lou Whitaker 18.0 3.8 Bobby Bonilla 24.9 3.9 Ken Griffey Jr 23.9 5.2 Tim Wallach 24.2 4.1 George Brett 24.3 4.1 Willie McGee 21.9 5.2 Kevin Mitchell 25.5 4.0 Will Clark 24.8 3.5 Jay Bell 16.8 2.5 Walt Weiss 15.8 4.2 Rafael Palmeiro 22.1 4.3 Tony Phillips 19.8 4.7 Ron Gant 24.1 5.5 Roberto Kelly 20.5 5.5 Harold Reynolds 17.2 4.8 Lonnie Smith 17.9 4.6 Pitcher Roger Clemens 28.5 10.6 Frank Viola 20.0 6.3 Chuck Finley 22.6 7.7 Ed Whitson 18.9 7.1 Erik Hanson 18.1 5.1 Dave Stewart 22.2 5.2 Doug Drabek 19.6 5.0 Mike Boddicker 19.1 6.1 Kevin Appier 13.1 5.3 Jose Rijo 17.1 5.8 Dave Stieb 17.2 5.9 David Cone 13.3 4.3 John Smoltz 14.2 4.0 Dennis Martinez 15.7 4.3 Mike Harkey 13.9 5.2 Zane Smith 16.4 4.3 Bruce Hurst 15.0 4.7 John Tudor 14.8 3.5 Oil Can Boyd 14.3 3.9 Danny Darwin 16.8 5.3 Steve Farr 12.8 4.8 Rob Dibble 16.5 3.9 Jeff Brantley 13.4 3.8 Paul Assenmacher 13.0 3.7 Larry Andersen 13.0 3.6 Bobby Thigpen 20.3 3.5 Greg Harris 13.3 3.6
|
BookmarksYou must be logged in to view your Bookmarks. Hot TopicsMost Meritorious Player: 1936 Discussion
(20 - 11:07pm, Mar 04) Last: DL from MN Most Meritorious Player: 1935 Results (3 - 7:30pm, Mar 03) Last: Qufini Most Meritorious Player: 1935 Ballot (11 - 4:04pm, Mar 03) Last: DL from MN Most Meritorious Player: 1935 Discussion (37 - 1:42pm, Mar 03) Last: John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy 2022 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion (145 - 8:27pm, Feb 16) Last: Dr. Chaleeko Mark Teixeira, Justin Morneau and Prince Fielder (6 - 9:15pm, Feb 15) Last: puck Newt Allen (20 - 12:26pm, Feb 04) Last: Carl Goetz Most Meritorious Player: 1934 Discussion (18 - 11:51am, Feb 04) Last: DL from MN Most Meritorious Player: 1934 Results (1 - 6:14pm, Feb 03) Last: DL from MN Most Meritorious Player: 1934 Ballot (10 - 4:59pm, Feb 03) Last: DL from MN Jimmy Rollins (11 - 2:32pm, Jan 29) Last: Carl Goetz David Ortiz (53 - 11:37pm, Jan 28) Last: SoSH U at work 2021 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion (651 - 1:45pm, Jan 25) Last: Bleed the Freak Jason Giambi (5 - 11:17pm, Jan 22) Last: The Honorable Ardo Hank Aaron (178 - 5:04pm, Jan 22) Last: Bourbon Samurai stays in the fight |
|||||||
About Baseball Think Factory | Write for Us | Copyright © 1996-2021 Baseball Think Factory
User Comments, Suggestions, or Complaints | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertising
|
| Page rendered in 0.4394 seconds |
Reader Comments and Retorts
Go to end of page
Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.
1. DL from MN Posted: January 26, 2016 at 12:16 PM (#5142941)Nolan Ryan had a bunch of Ks and a no-hitter but doesn't show up on the list.
1) Rickey! - Best offensive contribution, then add plus baserunning and defense
2) Roger Clemens - best pitching performance since Clemens 1987
3) Barry Bonds - Baserunning separates Rickey from Barry
4) Len Dykstra
5) Cal Ripken
6) Alan Trammell
7) Barry Larkin - three SS in a row
8) Frank Viola - best NL pitcher, very close to Finley but only because Viola had to hit
9) Chuck Finley
10) Ryne Sandberg
11) Ed Whitson
12) Darryl Strawberry
13) Cecil Fielder
14-20) Jose Canseco, Brett Butler, Matt Williams, Erik Hanson, Julio Franco, Bip Roberts, Mark McGwire
21-25) Dave Stewart, Fred McGriff, Darren Daulton, Carlton Fisk, Andy Van Slyke
2. Roger Clemens - 211 ERA+ (next best was 169 by a guy who barely qualified)
3. Barry Bonds - 170 OPS+, still superior in the outfield
4. Lenny Dykstra *
5. Ryne Sandberg
6. Cal Ripken
7. Cecil Fielder
8. Alan Trammell - well above average both offensively and defensively
9. Darryl Strawberry - good season with the bat and improved defense
10. Julio Franco - solid across board (top 30 in offense, defense, and BsR)
11. Eddie Murray
12. Barry Larkin - good glove and baserunning make up for lack of power or OBP
Mark McGwire - decent glove and .370 OBP make up for .235 BA
Fred McGriff - .300/.400/.530 triple slash makes up for poor glove
Having trouble deciding on last slot. McGwire and McGriff are in the mix. Also Bip Roberts.
Also, does anyone know anything more about Dykstra's ZR that year? It seems out of whack.
Win Shares overrates the relievers. Bobby Thigpen is not equal to Frank Viola.
1. Rickey Henderson, LF, Oakland A's: one of the great seasons of all-time, 1st in OPS+ and RC while adding massive advantages on the bases (+6) and with the glove (+16)
2. Roger Clemens, P, Boston Red Sox: 211 ERA+ laps the field
3. Cecil Fielder, 1B, Detroit Tigers: the Detroit faithful thought that Fielder was robbed of the MVP after hitting 50 home runs for the first time in a generation but the writers got this one right
4. Dennis Eckersley, RP, Oakland A's: a 0.61 ERA (and 603 ERA+) is absolutely ridiculous, WPA puts him second among AL pitchers behind Clemens
5. Dave Stewart, P, Oakland A's
6. Chuck Finley, P, California Angels: Stewart's 31 extra IP are worth more than Finley's 14 pt ERA+ advantage
7. Alan Trammell, SS, Detroit Tigers: top ten in RC and a 130 OPS+ while adding +10 runs on defense
8. Fred McGriff, 1B, Toronto Blue Jays: 2nd in OPS+ and RC
9. Carlton Fisk, C, Chicago White Sox: top ten in OPS+ while adding +6 fielding from behind the plate
10. Cal Ripken Jr., SS, Baltimore Orioles: +22 defense and not shabby with the bat either (114 OPS+)
I mis-remembered your comment as comparing Whitson to Maddux. I think it's fairly reasonable to argue, despite their different career pedigrees, Whitson was a better pitcher in 1990 than Maddux. Whitson had a 148 ERA+ in 228 innings while Maddux had a 119 ERA+ in 237 IP. Whitson outpitched his peripherals, with a 2.60 ERA to a 3.07 FIP, but his FIP was still better than Maddux (who had a 3.46 ERA to go with a 3.15 FIP). Maddux struck batters out at a better rate, but not by much (5.5 per 9 to 5.0 per 9). All that being said, 1990 was a generally weak year for NL pitchers and it's possible that none of them will make my final ballot.
1. Barry Bonds, LF, Pittsburgh Pirates: 1st in NL in OPS+ and RC with +28 fielding
2. Ryne Sandberg, 2B, Chicago Cubs: 2nd in RC from the keystone position
3. Lenny Dykstra, CF, Philadelphia Phillies: 3rd in RC with +25 defense from CF
4. Eddie Murray, 1B, Los Angeles Dodgers: 2nd in OPS+ with 159
5. Frank Viola, P, New York Mets: top pitcher in the NL due to league-leading 249 IP and top five ERA+
6. Darryl Strawberry, RF, New York Mets: top ten in OPS+ and RC with +18 fielding
7. Ed Whitson, P, San Diego Padres: 148 ERA+ is 3rd in NL
8. Zane Smith, P, Montreal/Pittsburgh: a big drop-off but someone has to be 8th
9. Ron Gant, CF, Atlanta Braves: 139 OPS+ but only passable in CF
10. Barry Larkin, SS, Cincinnati Reds: good combo of bat (104 OPS+) and glove (+10 fielding)
1. Rickey Henderson, LF, Oakland A's: one of the great seasons of all-time, 1st in OPS+ and RC while adding massive advantages on the bases (+6) and with the glove (+16)
2. Barry Bonds, LF, Pittsburgh Pirates: 1st in NL in OPS+ and RC with +28 fielding
3. Roger Clemens, P, Boston Red Sox: 211 ERA+ laps the field
4. Cecil Fielder, 1B, Detroit Tigers: the Detroit faithful thought that Fielder was robbed of the MVP after hitting 50 home runs for the first time in a generation but the writers got this one right
5. Ryne Sandberg, 2B, Chicago Cubs: 2nd in NL RC from the keystone position
6. Lenny Dykstra, CF, Philadelphia Phillies: 3rd in NL RC with +25 defense from CF
7. Dennis Eckersley, RP, Oakland A's: a 0.61 ERA (and 603 ERA+) is absolutely ridiculous, WPA puts him second among AL pitchers behind Clemens
8. Eddie Murray, 1B, Los Angeles Dodgers: 2nd in OPS+ with 159
9. Dave Stewart, P, Oakland A's
10. Chuck Finley, P, California Angels: Stewart's 31 extra IP are worth more than Finley's 14 pt ERA+ advantage
11. Alan Trammell, SS, Detroit Tigers: top ten in RC and a 130 OPS+ while adding +10 runs on defense
12. Fred McGriff, 1B, Toronto Blue Jays: 2nd in OPS+ and RC
13. Carlton Fisk, C, Chicago White Sox: top ten in OPS+ while adding +6 fielding from behind the plate
14. Frank Viola, P, New York Mets: top pitcher in the NL due to league-leading 249 IP and top five ERA+
15. Cal Ripken Jr., SS, Baltimore Orioles: +22 defense and not shabby with the bat either (114 OPS+)
16. Darryl Strawberry, RF, New York Mets: top ten in OPS+ and RC with +18 fielding
17. Ed Whitson, P, San Diego Padres: 148 ERA+ is 3rd in NL
18. Jose Canseco, RF, Oakland A's
19. Julio Franco, 2B, Texas Rangers
t-20. George Brett, 1B, Kansas City Royals; Mark McGwire, 1B, Oakland A's
There are some interesting names on this bad boy.
1-Rickey Henderson
2-Barry Bonds
3-Roger Clemens
4-Len Dykstra
5-Ryne Sandberg
6-Chuck Finley
7-Cecil Fielder
8-Doug Drabek
9-Jose Canseco
10-Eddie Murray
11-Cal Ripken Jr
12-Doc Gooden
13-Ramon Martinez
14-Erik Hanson
15-Fred McGriff
16-Barry Larkin
17-Darryl Strawberry
18-Hitting Ed Whitson
19-Alan Trammell
20-Brett Butler
1. Bonds
2. R Henderson
3. Fielder
4. Clemens
5. Sandberg
6. Dykstra
7. Strawberry
8. Murray
9. Stewart
10.McGriff
11.Viola
12.Trammell
13.C Finley
Also seriously considered hitters Larkin, Ripken, Canseco, McGwire, & Gant as well as pitchers Darwin, Eck, Thigpen, & Drabek
Honorable mention:
Thigpen & Eck--one set the saves record & one had an amazing ERA & IP/BB ratio
Welch--27 wins is cool looking, it got him a CY. Welch's 27 W's & Thigpen's 57 SV's were very odd & lucky totals
Fisk--good season for a surprise contender Sox team
Darwin--went from mop out reliever to excellent starter/ERA leader
Jack Armstrong--forgotten starter of the AS game for the NL
Eckersley - Win Shares 20.0, WAR 3.0
1. Rickey! Henderson
2. Barry Bonds
3. Lenny the Dykstra
4. Roger Clemens
5. Ryne Sandberg
6. Cecil Fielder
7. Julio Franco
8. Darryl Strawberry
9. Alan Trammell
10. Cal Ripken, Jr.
11. Mark McGwire
12. Jose Canseco
13. Chuck Finley
- Brock Hanke
As I mentioned above, WAR is almost certainly underrating Fisk. Feel free to go with Win Shares on that one.
I know that this is a yearly project, but while I'm on the subject of complaining, I have a MUCH more serious one about WAR systems. As many of you know, Bill James' New Historical Abstract uses Win Shares as the root of a system that included career accumulated WS, peak, prime, and rate per 162 games. I do not know why no WAR system does this. It wouldn't be hard. Peak, prime and rate per 162 are trivial for a computer to calculate. The only issue of any seriousness is finding the number to use to compute the harmonic mean that Bill uses to keep the accumulated Win Shares on the same scale as the other three components. You can't just use 25, as Bill does, because the zero point for WAR is not the same as for Win Shares. But that's not a serious problem. I could do this easily if I had access to a database, but it's so simple that no one who can put up that database needs me.
DL, or anyone else who studies the WAR systems, can you tell me why no WAR system does this? It's starting to mess up Hall of Fame analysis. The Koufax / Dean / Sisler type of candidacy, where the guy had a phenomenal peak and prime, but also had an injury that destroyed half their career, are getting very bad reputations. This is because younger analysts, some of whom may not even have a New Historical, don't even seem to have encountered the concept of a thorough, balanced, HoF system. IMO, this is the single biggest problem in sabermetrics. We spend a lot of time trying to figure out who belongs in the Hall. We can't do that without a robust ranking system. Why? DL, Illiam, Dan, Sean, do you know? - Brock Hanke
double check this number?
No postseason credit and 10% catcher bonus.
1 Henderson, Rickey 9759
2 Bonds, Barry 8731
3 Clemens, Roger 8503
4 Dykstra, Lenny 7558
5 Sandberg, Ryne 6702
6 Fielder, Cecil 6361
7 Finley, Chuck 5952
8 McGriff, Fred 5950
9 Trammell, Alan 5949
10 Murray, Eddie 5876
11 Ripken, Cal 5726
12 Fisk, Carlton 5601
13 Larkin, Barry 5596
I agree Hall of Fame analysis can be complicated... but I'm not sure how I feel about what you refer to as "The Koufax/Dean/Sisler type of candidacy". I'm pretty much a career voter (as opposed to peak or prime) anyway so I tend to be skeptical of that type of candidate (at least in general). Regarding the differences between Win Shares and WAR, I think for a system like WS it's much more important to also look at peak and prime because it is basically (although not totally) starting at zero (as opposed to a replacement level where many players every year end up with negative numbers (like WAR systems)). Not to say that WAR systems can't or shouldn't do that as well (such as JAWS) it's just that (to me at least) it's much more obviously needed with a system like Win Shares as opposed to WAR. Not sure if I'm coherently saying what I'm trying to say...
1. Rickey Henderson
2. Barry Bonds
3. Roger Clemens
4. Lenny Dykstra
5. Alan Trammell
6. Ryne Sandberg
7. Chuck Finley
8. Jose Canseco
9. Dave Stewart. Thanks for the Win Shares info. Faced the most batters
in the AL each season 1988-1990, not even counting the additional 88+ IP in the playoffs.
10. Cecil Fielder
11. Eddie Murray
12. Lance Parrish. Lower OPS+ than Fisk but more time as catcher
13. Ed Whitson, almost tied with #14 Frank Viola for NL MMPi
Henderson, Larkin, Stewart, Rijo, Drabek & Boddicker will get postseason bonuses from me.
I think you may be misremembering, at least about Glavine and Maddux. Neither really threw a slider at all. Both changed speeds off their fastballs with several different change-ups and both threw cut fastballs, but I don't recall either of them utilizing the slider. Smoltz did feature a sharp breaking slider, and was the only one of the three to have any real time lost in his prime to an arm injury.
Of the Braves pitchers in the Mazzone era, the only one to be successful and have a big curve was Steve Avery, but he, of course, flamed out very early, supporting the more general point you make about injuries and curves.
You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.
<< Back to main