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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Wednesday, August 03, 2016Most Meritorious Player: 1996 DiscussionThe Yankees beat the Braves in the World Series. Vote for 14 this year. Player SH WS BBR WAR Barry Bonds 37.8 9.6 Alex Rodriguez 32.2 9.4 Ken Caminiti 35.5 7.6 Jeff Bagwell 39.8 7.5 Mike Piazza 33.3 5.4 Ken Griffey Jr 26.9 9.7 Barry Larkin 31.3 7.2 Chuck Knoblauch 31.5 8.6 Bernard Gilkey 25.5 8.0 Gary Sheffield 32.6 5.9 Brady Anderson 30.6 6.9 Jim Thome 28.3 7.5 Chipper Jones 25.5 6.2 Steve Finley 27.6 5.7 Lance Johnson 25.3 7.2 Frank Thomas 27.0 5.5 Mark McGwire 28.4 6.4 Roberto Alomar 30.8 5.3 Ellis Burks 29.5 7.9 Todd Hundley 22.8 4.9 Ivan Rodriguez 24.0 6.1 Jose Valentin 18.2 3.9 Albert Belle 28.9 5.6 Scott Brosius 18.6 5.3 Manny Ramirez 23.3 4.2 Paul O'Neill 21.3 3.8 Mo Vaughn 29.3 5.6 Kenny Lofton 22.9 5.5 Jim Edmonds 19.2 5.0 Raul Mondesi 25.3 4.6 Edgar Renteria 15.2 3.2 Edgar Martinez 24.1 6.5 Rusty Greer 20.5 5.3 Sammy Sosa 18.9 5.4 Tony Phillips 18.8 3.2 Dave Martinez 15.6 4.8 Brian Jordan 22.3 5.5 Ray Lankford 26.2 5.0 Rafael Palmeiro 26.8 4.4 Pitcher Kevin Brown 26.2 7.9 Pat Hentgen 23.9 8.5 Roger Clemens 19.2 7.8 John Smoltz 25.1 7.7 Greg Maddux 23.4 7.1 Tom Glavine 21.5 6.9 Ken Hill 22.2 6.6 Alex Fernandez 19.4 6.4 Charles Nagy 21.2 6.7 Juan Guzman 17.4 6.8 Kevin Appier 19.7 6.1 Al Leiter 19.4 5.2 Ben McDonald 16.6 5.4 Denny Neagle 16.5 5.8 Tim Belcher 19.4 4.9 Shane Reynolds 16.1 4.3 Andy Pettitte 18.1 5.6 Curt Schilling 14.4 4.8 Jeff Fasserro 17.7 5.3 Chuck Finley 16.0 4.2 Wilson Alvarez 13.7 4.3 Steve Trachsel 15.6 3.4 Ismael Valdez 16.1 4.5 Hideo Nomo 16.9 4.6 Pedro Astacio 13.8 4.0 Mariano Rivera 17.7 5.0 Roberto Hernandez 17.5 4.2 Trevor Hoffman 19.5 3.8 Troy Percival 16.2 3.4 Jeff Shaw 11.9 3.4
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1. DL from MN Posted: August 03, 2016 at 07:10 PM (#5278495)1) Barry Bonds - best bat
2) Alex Rodriguez - great season for a SS
3) Ken Caminiti - decent glove, good bat
4) Kevin Brown - best P
5) Jeff Bagwell - 3rd best bat
6) Mike Piazza - C bonus
7) Pat Hentgen
8) Ken Griffey Jr
9) Barry Larkin
10) Roger Clemens
11) Chuck Knoblauch
12) Bernard Gilkey - good glove
13) Gary Sheffield - 2nd best bat
14) John Smoltz
15-20) Greg Maddux, Brady Anderson, Tom Glavine, Ken Hill, Jim Thome, Chipper Jones
21-25) Steve Finley, Lance Johnson, Frank Thomas, Mark McGwire, Alex Fernandez
26-29) Charles Nagy, Juan Guzman, Roberto Alomar, Ellis Burks
To start with, the NL team, with the starting lineup presented as a batting order:
1. Lance Johnson, CF
2. Barry Larkin, SS
3. Jeff Bagwell, 1B
4. Barry Bonds, LF
5. Gary Sheffield, RF
6. Ken Caminiti, 3B
7. Mike Piazza, C
8. Ellis Burks, DH
9. Craig Biggio, 2B
Bench: Bernard Gllkey, OF
Bench: Chipper Jones, IF
Bench: Edgar Renteria, SS
Bench: Steve Finley, CF
Bench: Todd Hundley, C
Bench: Tony Gwynn, OF
#1 pitcher: Kevin Brown
#2 pitcher: Greg Maddux
#3 pitcher: John Smoltz
#4 pitcher: Al Leiter
#5 pitcher: Tom Glavine
Closer: Trevor Hoffmann
Bullpen: Robb Nen
Bullpen: Mel Rojas
LOOGY: Mark Guthrie
Bullpen: Hideo Nomo
In my writeup, I said that the most difficult position was CF, where I considered all of Johnson, Finley, Ray Lankford, and Marquis Grissom, along with considering moving Bonds to CF and Gilkey to LF.
NL Cy Young:
1. Brown
2. Smoltz
3. Maddux
4. Hoffman
5. Leiter
(But I didn't strongly object to Smoltz getting the actual CY.)
NL MVP:
1. Caminiti
2. Piazza
3. Brown
4. Larkin
5. Bonds
6. Sheffield
I did mention that Larkin came back from his 1995 MVP with an even better 1996. It's also clear from my relative rankings of Bonds and Sheffield that I was going almost entirely by offense, or more likely a combination of offense and position value, with insufficient consideration of actual defense.
1. Roberto Alomar, 2B
2. Alex Rodriguez, SS
3. Jim Thome, 3B
4. Mark McGwire, 1B
5. Frank Thomas, DH
6. Albert Belle, LF
7. Ken Griffey, CF
8. Brady Anderson, RF
9. Ivan Rodriguez, C
Bench: Chuck Knoblauch, 2B
Bench: Edgar Martinez, DH
Bench: Omar Vizquel, SS
Bench: Terry Steinbach, C
Bench: Mo Vaughn, 1B
Bench: Juan Gonzalez, OF
#1 pitcher: Pat Hentgen
#2 pitcher: Charles Nagy
#3 pitcher: Alex Fernandez
#4 pitcher: Juan Guzman
#5 pitcher: Roger Clemens
Closer: Roberto Hernandez
Setup: Mariano Rivera
Bullpen: John Wetteland
Bullpen: Kevin Appier
Bullpen: Ken Hill
This time I said that the hardest choice was at 2B between Alomar and Knoblauch, and that I also had trouble with the left end of the defensive spectrum (RF, LF, 1B, DH) among Bell, Anderson, Gonzalez, Manny Ramirez, McGwire, Thomas, Vaughn, and Edgar Martinez. And I said "I made the decision to put a non-closer reliever on each team so I would have a way to recognize Mariano Rivera."
AL Cy Young:
1. Hentgen
2. Nagy
3. Fernandez
4. Rivera
5. Hernandez
"Putting a setup man like Rivera in there is a very unusual choice - but I am impressed. On the other hand, the choice of Hentgen for the award is an obvious decision"
AL MVP:
1. Alex Rodriguez
2. McGwire
3. Thome
4. R. Alomar
5. Knoblauch
6. Ivan Rodriguez
I'll come back in a few days to smash this into MMP format. There are a few decisions to be made there.
"A lot of the buzz about Alex Rodriguez concerns his age - he turned 21 during the season. People are asking - has anyone ever been that good that young? The answer is yes, a few have been that good - but only a very few. Mel Ott was that good at age 20. Ted Williams was that good at age 21. Ty Cobb had already established by age 21 that he would be the dominant player of his generation. There have been quite a few pitchers who have been dominant at age 21 or younger - Dwight Gooden, Vida Blue, Bob Feller, Babe Ruth, etc., but pitchers are not what we are talking about here. There’s a larger group of people who were spectacular at age 21, but not as good as Rodriguez was this year: Mickey Mantle, Henry Aaron, Ken Griffey Jr., Cesar Cedeño, Tony Conigliaro, etc. Rodriguez’s future is unimaginably bright. I included Conigliaro and Cedeño so you could see a down side: Conigliaro as a reminder that injuries are always possible, Cedeño as a reminder that some players are as good at age 21 as they’re ever going to be. For that matter, Ott was just about as good at age 20 as he ever would be. Even so, Ott was a great player, a no-questions-asked Hall of Famer, and Cedeño was an almost-great player. Cedeño is not in the Hall of Fame, but he was a better player than several outfielders who are.
But you don’t want to get lost in only talking about Rodriguez’s season in terms of his potential. How good a season was it right now, on its own terms? In 1985, all the talk about Dwight Gooden’s potential dimmed the light of Gooden’s year on its own terms - it was one of the greatest pitcher’s years ever, and it was by far the best year Gooden would ever have. Leaving age aside, the best historical precedent I can think of for Alex Rodriguez, 1996, is Robin Yount, 1982. In 1996, Alex Rodriguez played shortstop and batted 2nd in the Seattle lineup. In 1982, Robin Yount played shortstop and batted 2nd in the Milwaukee lineup. In 1996, Rodriguez was followed in the lineup by Ken Griffey Jr., an MVP candidate in his own right, and by the powerful Edgar Martinez and Jay Buhner. In 1982, Yount was followed in the lineup by Cecil Cooper, an MVP candidate in his own right, and by Ted Simmons and the powerful Ben Ogilvie and Gorman Thomas. Unlike Rodriguez, Yount was also preceded by a great leadoff hitter, Paul Molitor. Rodriguez hit .358, winning the batting championship. Yount hit .331, losing the batting championship by .001 to Willie Wilson. Rodriguez’s on-base percentage of .414 ranked 9th in the league (McGwire led with .467 ). Yount’s on-base percentage of .384 probably ranked somewhere around 7th to 10th in the league (Dwight Evans led with .403). Rodriguez’s slugging percentage of .631 ranked 4th in the league (McGwire led with .730). Yount’s slugging percentage of .578 led the league. Rodriguez hit 54 doubles, leading the league. Yount hit 46 doubles, tying for the league lead with McRae. Rodriguez hit 36 home runs, tying for 13th in the league (McGwire led with 52). Yount hit 29 home runs, which probably ranked around 10th in the league (Thomas and Reggie Jackson led with 39 each). Rodriguez hit only one triple. Yount hit 12 triples, 3rd in the league. Rodriguez’s 91 extra base hits were second in the league to Brady Anderson’s 92. Yount’s 87 extra base hits led the league. Rodriguez scored 141 runs, leading the league. Yount’s 129 runs scored ranked 2nd in the league, behind Molitor, who rode Yount’s hitting to rack up 136 runs scored. Rodriguez’s 123 RBI ranked 8th in the league - very impressive for a #2 hitter (Belle led with 148). Yount’s 114 RBI ranked 4th in the league - very impressive for a #2 hitter but also a tribute to the leadoff hitter in front of him (McRae led with 133). Rodriguez stole a few bases efficiently, going 15-4. Yount stole a few bases efficiently, going 14-3. Both had defensive statistics that placed them in the middle of the pack of their league’s shortstops. In 1996, Rodriguez finished the season in a mild slump, as his team faded away from a chance at the playoffs. In 1982, Yount finished the year on a hot streak, hitting 2 home runs in the final game as the Brewers squeaked out the division title on the last day. In 1982, Yount won the MVP award by acclamation. In 1996, there are some other players around to give an argument. My own reaction is that in the context of the time, the league, and the ballpark, I am more impressed by Yount’s 1982 season than by Rodriguez’s 1996 - but I’m amazed at how closely they run in parallel. Yount was 27 years old at the time, the classic age for a player to be at his absolute peak. There is no doubt that the year represents his high water mark, the best year he ever had."
We've definitely entered the sillyball era with huge offensive numbers all around.
1. Alex Rodriguez, SS, Seattle Mariners: top five OPS+, 1st in AL RC, adds +8 defense from shortstop
2. Barry Bonds, LF, San Francisco Giants: 2nd in OPS+, 1st in NL RC, adds +10 defense in left
3. Kevin Brown, P, Florida Marlins: 215 ERA+ is crazy good
4. Mark McGwire, 1B, Oakland Athletics: leads AL with 196 OPS+
5. Ken Griffey Jr., CF, Seattle Mariners: +32 on defense plus a pretty good bat (154 OPS+)
6. Jeff Bagwell, 1B, Houston Astros: top 3 in NL in both OPS+ (178) and RC (156)
7. Ken Caminiti, 3B, San Diego Padres: Just a smidge behind Bagwell in every category
8. Mike Piazza, C, Los Angeles Dodgers: top five OPS+ while wielding "the tools of ignorance"
9. Jim Thome, 3B, Cleveland Indians: still holding his own at third while posting a 167 OPS+
10. Gary Sheffield, RF, Florida Marlins: awful defense (-16) keeps him behind the other big bats
11. Chuck Knoblauch, 2B, Minnesota Twins: does everything well
12. Ellis Burks, CF, Colorado Rockies: the +12 defense gets him on the ballot as much as the 149 OPS+
13. Pat Hentgen, P, Toronto Blue Jays: top pitcher in the AL
14. Barry Larkin, SS, Cincinnati Reds: sneaks onto the ballot once more
15. Frank Thomas, 1B, Chicago White Sox: 2nd in AL in OPS+ but dragged down by playing time and poor defense
16. Brady Anderson, CF, Baltimore Orioles: as an O's fan, I would have loved to find room for him on the ballot
17. Edgar Martinez, DH, Seattle Mariners
18. Greg Maddux, P, Atlanta Braves
19. Mo Vaughn, 1B, Boston Red Sox
20. John Smoltz, P, Atlanta Braves: beats out Bernard Gilkey and Mariano Rivera for the top 20
NL
C Mike Piazza
1B Jeff Bagwell
2B Craig Biggio
3B Ken Caminiti
SS Barry Larkin
LF Barry Bonds
CF Steve Finley
RF Gary Sheffield
No real competition at any position accept the outfield. Bernard Gilkey (another LF) rated higher than Finley; So Burks could play CF with Gilkey in RF.
P - includes pitcher hitting in the rating
SP John Smoltz
SP Kevin Brown
SP greg Maddux
SP Al Leiter
RP Trevor Hoffman
C Ivan Rodriquez
1B Mark McGwire
2B Robbie Alomar Knoblaugh was close: a better hitter, but poorer fielder than Alomar
3B Jim Thome
SS Alex Rodriguez
LF Albert Belle
CF Ken Griffey
RF Tough call; the highest rated RF is Juan Gonzalez, but Brady Anderson (CF), Rusty Greer (LF) and Jim Edmonds(CF) are all rated Higher than Gonzalez. I think I will agree with OCF and make Anderson my RF,
DH Edgar Martinez
SP Rat Hentgen
SP Roger Clemens
SP Alex Fernandez
SP Juan Guzman
Reliever Mariano Rivera
1. John Smoltz 9.51 WARR Great stats while pitching in a hitter's park. About .5 wins as a hitter.
2 Barry Bonds 9.01 WARR A vintage Bonds year
3. Kevin Brown 8.84 WARR Better raw stat than Smoltz, but pitches in a pitcher's park.
4 Ken Caminiti 8.02 WARR A career year. Great hitting and fielding stats. Caminiti had several solid seasons in his career, but nothing to compare to 1996.
5. Gary Sheffield 7.92 WARR Close to having the best hitting stats in NL, but poor defense lowered his ranking.
6. Greg Maddux 7.87 WARR a solid season.
7. Alex Rodriguez. 7.75 WARR An amazing season for a 20/21 year old in his first full season.
8. Jeff Bagwell 7.75 WARR A typical Bagwell season
9. Jim Thome 7.13 WARR Outstanding batting stats with slightly above average fielding at 3B.
10. Pat Hentgen Best AL pitcher.
11. Roger Clemens 6.7 WARR Raw stats don't seem to compare with others, but Boston had one of the poorest fielding records in the AL in support of their pitchers.
12. Mark McWire 6.66 WARR A powerful year.
13. Mike Piazza 6.66 WAR Another good offensive year. Slightly below average on defense.
14. Albert Belle 6.66 WARR A solid offensive season; still an above average fielder.
Clemens, Belle and Piazza are so close that more investigation is necessary before the final ballot..
The rest of the top 20
15.Ellis Burks
16. Barry Larkin
17. Robbie Alomar
18. Edgar Martinez
19. Ken Griffey Jr DRA only gives Griffey a +5.5 Fielding runs instead of the +32 runs that Total Zone estimates.
20. Tom Glavine
1, Barry Bonds -Best bat and very good defense .
2. Alex Rodriquez
3. Ken Griffey Jr. - bat plus GG CF. His glove may put him above Arod on my final ballot.
4. Kevin Brown
5. Roger Clemens
6. Barry Larkin - Better year than his MVP 1995.
7. Ken Caminiti - plus fielding this year.
8. John Smoltz
10. Jeff Bagwell.
11. Mike Piazza - his bat might put him above Bagwell in my final.
12. Gary Sheffield- his awful glove keeps him out of the top ten.
13. Ellis Burks -
14. Greg Maddux
15. Jim Thome
1. Alex Rodriguez
2. Mark McGwire
3. Ken Caminiti
4. Mike Piazza
5. Kevin Brown
6. Jim Thome
7. Barry Larkin
8. Barry Bonds
9. Roberto Alomar
10. Gary Sheffield
11. Chuck Knoblauch
12. Ivan Rodriguez
13. Brady Anderson
14. John Smoltz
Not in the top 14, but worth a “hey, look at what this new guy did” notice: Mariano Rivera.
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