User Comments, Suggestions, or Complaints | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertising
Page rendered in 0.4465 seconds
38 querie(s) executed
You are here > Home > Hall of Merit > Discussion
| ||||||||
Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Wednesday, October 05, 2016Most Meritorious Player: 1998 DiscussionMcGwire hit 70 HR and set the new season record. The Yankees defeated the Padres in the World Series. Baseball added two teams so we vote for 15 this year. Player SH WS BBR WAR Mark McGwire 39.4 8.7 Alex Rodriguez 27.8 8.5 Mike Piazza 34.7 6.4 Barry Bonds 34.3 8.1 Scott Rolen 30.8 6.7 Jason Kendall 25.7 6.4 John Olerud 34.0 7.6 Chipper Jones 31.2 7.0 Ivan Rodriguez 27.8 6.4 Greg Vaughn 31.7 6.3 Barry Larkin 26.5 5.9 Albert Belle 37.9 7.4 Derek Jeter 28.8 4.1 Nomar Garciaparra 25.3 5.6 Ken Griffey Jr 27.2 6.6 Craig Biggio 33.6 6.5 Bernie Williams 28.6 5.1 Jeff Bagwell 29.0 5.6 Scott Brosius 23.5 5.2 Jeff Kent 24.2 5.4 Paul O'Neill 25.5 4.7 Ray Lankford 26.0 5.4 Manny Ramirez 24.4 5.2 Vladimir Guerrero 26.8 4.9 Jeff Cirillo 27.2 4.4 Sammy Sosa 35.8 7.0 Moises Alou 29.5 4.1 Andruw Jones 26.9 8.2 Robin Ventura 22.0 4.0 Rafael Palmeiro 25.7 5.4 Mo Vaughn 27.0 4.6 Carlos Delgado 24.4 4.7 Bobby Abreu 24.0 3.2 Larry Walker 20.7 4.4 Jose Offerman 27.7 3.6 Brian Jordan 21.1 4.2 Ray Durham 25.7 4.8 Fernando Vina 29.0 5.2 Juan Gonzalez 25.8 3.8 Edgar Martinez 23.2 5.6 Kenny Lofton 20.5 3.9 Jim Edmonds 24.9 5.1 Andres Galarraga 28.6 4.2 Gary Sheffield 27.5 4.1 Pitcher Kevin Brown 25.2 8.2 Roger Clemens 25.2 8.8 Greg Maddux 24.7 8.3 Tom Glavine 22.9 7.6 Pedro Martinez 21.3 7.9 Curt Schilling 22.0 6.3 Kenny Rogers 19.4 7.4 Al Leiter 21.1 6.3 Jamie Moyer 18.5 7.3 Randy Johnson 19.9 6.7 Chuck Finley 17.8 5.1 Mike Mussina 15.6 4.9 John Smoltz 15.5 4.3 David Wells 17.9 5.6 Bartolo Colon 15.9 5.1 Pete Harnisch 16.1 4.9 Rolando Arrojo 16.2 5.3 Francisco Cordero 15.8 4.9 Dustin Hermanson 13.9 3.8 Brian Moehler 16.5 4.3 Andy Ashby 16.8 3.9 Rick Helling 15.5 5.2 Mike Jackson 16.0 4.2 Trevor Hoffman 19.8 4.1 Robb Nen 18.2 4.0 Ugueth Urbina 16.7 3.9 Jeff Shaw 15.9 3.6 Tom Gordon 17.3 3.5 John Wetteland 14.6 3.4 Mike Timlin 12.5 3.3 Mariano Rivera 14.4 3.3
|
BookmarksYou must be logged in to view your Bookmarks. Hot Topics2023 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion
(168 - 1:46pm, Jul 13) Last: DL from MN Most Meritorious Player: Trophy Case (71 - 6:53pm, Jul 08) Last: DL from MN Most Meritorious Player: 1900 Results (6 - 6:28pm, Jul 08) Last: DL from MN Most Meritorious Player: 1900 Ballot (11 - 4:03pm, Jul 06) Last: DL from MN Most Meritorious Player: 1918 Results (6 - 8:58pm, Jun 29) Last: kenna Most Meritorious Player: 1920 Ballot (25 - 8:55pm, Jun 29) Last: kenna Most Meritorious Player: 1900 Discussion (9 - 1:14am, Jun 29) Last: Harmon Ripkowski Hall of Merit Book Club (6 - 12:45pm, Jun 28) Last: progrockfan Most Meritorious Player: 1899 Results (6 - 1:51pm, Jun 22) Last: DL from MN Most Meritorious Player: 1899 Ballot (10 - 9:54am, Jun 22) Last: TomH Most Meritorious Player: 1899 Discussion (9 - 9:04am, May 31) Last: DL from MN Most Meritorious Player: 1898 Results (4 - 3:22pm, May 06) Last: DL from MN Most Meritorious Player: 1898 Ballot (8 - 10:07am, May 05) Last: DL from MN Most Meritorious Player: 1898 Discussion (7 - 1:08am, May 02) Last: Harmon Ripkowski Most Meritorious Player: 1897 Results (2 - 4:29pm, Apr 06) Last: DL from MN |
|||||||
About Baseball Think Factory | Write for Us | Copyright © 1996-2021 Baseball Think Factory
User Comments, Suggestions, or Complaints | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertising
|
| Page rendered in 0.4465 seconds |
Reader Comments and Retorts
Go to end of page
Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.
1. DL from MN Posted: October 05, 2016 at 04:17 PM (#5314833)1. Craig Biggio, 2B
2. John Olerud, 1B
3. Mark McGwire, DH
4. Sammy Sosa, RF
5. Barry Bonds, LF
6. Chipper Jones, 3B
7. Ray Lankford, CF
8. Mike Piazza, C
9. Barry Larkin, SS
Resrv. Jason Kendall, C
Resrv. Fernando Vina, IF
Resrv. Jeff Kent, IF
Resrv. Andruw Jones, CF
Resrv. Greg Vaughn, OF
Resrv. Larry Walker, OF
#1 P. Tom Glavine, SP
#2 P. Greg Maddux, SP
#3 P. Kevin Brown, SP
#4 P. Curt Schilling, SP
#5 P. Randy Johnson, SP
Closer. Trevor Hoffman, RP
Resrv. Ugueth Urbina, RP
Resrv. Robb Nen, RP
Resrv. Al Leiter, P
Resrv. Kerry Wood, P
My NL CYA vote:
1. Glavine
2. Martinez
3. Brown
4. Schilling
5. Johnson
[Comment: “In a fairer world, Brown would already have won a Cy Young (in 1996).”]
My NL MVP vote:
1. McGwire
2. Sosa
3. Larkin
4. Bonds
5. Piazza
6. Biggio
“You could see this as a replay of the 1961 AL MVP vote, with McGwire in place of Mantle and Sosa in place of Maris. They gave that one to Maris, and giving this one to Sosa would at least be consistent with that precedent.”
1. Derek Jeter, 3B (!)
2. Bernie Williams, LF (!)
3. Mo Vaughn, 1B
4. Albert Belle, DH
5. Juan Gonzalez, RF
6. Ken Griffey, CF
7. Alex Rodriguez, SS
8. Nomar Garciaparra, 2B (!)
9. Ivan Rodriguez, C
Resrv. Jorge Posada, C
Resrv. Jose Offerman, IF
Resrv. Edgar Martinez, PH
Resrv. Rafael Palmiero, 1B
Resrv. Manny Ramirez, OF
Resrv. Tim Salmon, OF
#1 P. Roger Clemens, SP
#2 P. Pedro Martinez, SP
#3 P. Kenny Rogers, SP
#4 P. David Wells, SP
#5 P. Jamie Moyer, SP
Closer. Mariano Rivera, RP
Resrv. Tom Gordon, RP
Resrv. John Wetteland, RP
Resrv. Chuck Finley, P
Resrv. David Cone, P
AL CYA:
1. Clemens
2. Martinez
3. Rogers
4. Wells
5. Moyer
AL MVP:
1. Belle
2. Vaughn
3. Ivan Rodriguez
4. Alex Rodriguez
5. Griffey
6. Garciaparra
7. Juan Gonzalez
I did talk about how much I wanted not to put Belle on top - to find anyone else, anyone else at all. In the end, I couldn’t avoid him.
“Home runs haven’t changed much at all from last year, but remain as a very high level. I expect that in the next decade or two, for an individual to hit 60 home runs in a year will be about as common as 50 home runs was during the 60’s, 70’s, or 80’s: not an every year sort of thing, but the occasional George Foster or Cecil Fielder does come along. McGwire did push the record out some distance, but that record will not be safe.”
Well, maybe in not that great working order:
“The single individual best positioned to challenge it would be Griffey.”
Crystal ball kind of on the fritz:
“What about Sosa? For him to hit 66 home runs was not a stone crazy fluke like Brady Anderson hitting 50 or Davy Johnson hitting 40. It may not even be a semi-fluke like Roger Maris hitting 61. But I think it is a way-out-of-line performance like Cecil Fielder hitting 50 or Wade Boggs hitting 24. He won’t keep it up. I expect him to go back to hitting 35 to 45 home runs a year.”
1) Mark McGwire - hard to top 70 HR
2) Kevin Brown - best pitcher
3) Alex Rodriguez - good glove year
4) Mike Piazza
5) Roger Clemens
6) Greg Maddux
7) Barry Bonds - I could see any of the top seven getting first place votes
8) Tom Glavine
9) Scott Rolen - outstanding fielder
10) Jason Kendall
11) Chipper Jones
12) John Olerud - outstanding fielder
13) Ivan Rodriguez - outstanding fielder
14) Greg Vaughn - fielding 1.5 wins better than Sosa
15) Barry Larkin - forgotten among Nomar, A-Rod and Jeter
16-20) Albert Belle, Derek Jeter, Nomar Garciaparra, Pedro Martinez, Ken Griffey Jr
21-25) Curt Schilling, Craig Biggio, Kenny Rogers, Al Leiter, Bernie Williams
Player BWAA1 BRWAA1 FWAA1 Rep1 WARP1
Vaughn 5.8 0.1 0.7 -1 7.6
SaSosa 5.9 0 -0.8 -1.1 6.2
This season that means there are 15 hitters in between them.
The year that "brought the fans back to baseball".
C Mike Piazza The traveling man. had was what was becoming his normal year. Back up: Jason Kendall, who at 24 was becoming a very solid player.
1b Mark McGwire What more can you say. Any other year John Olerud would have had a great shot at being the all star. Jeff Bagwell had another solid year as well.
2B Jeff Kent Not as good as offensive numbers as Biggio, but much better defense. Biggio, after a great defensive season in 1997, was significantly below average this year.
3B Scott Rolen Solid offense, slightly above average defense. Best offensive 3B was Chipper Jones, but was well below average defensively. Vinnie Castilla was slightly ahead of Jones as runner up at 3B.
SS Barry Larkin and Jay Bell were essentially equal. Larkin was better offensively and Bell defensively. Neither would be a bad choice as an all star.
LF Barry Bonds Best offensive numbers for an outfielder along with well above average defense.
CF Andruw Jones A remarkable defensive year made up for the fact the Lankford was a better offensive player.
RF Sammy Sosa great offense, slightly above average defensively. The only other corner outfielder in the conversation was Greg Vaughn and he was over 2 wins below Sosa.
SP Greg Maddux
SP Tom Glavine
SP Kevin Brown
SP Al Leiter
SP Curt schilling
RP Juan Acevedo
RP Jeff Shaw
Closer Trevor Hoffman
C Ivan Rodriguez Slightly above average hitter and above average fielder. No one was even close to him. Posada was the runner up, bur was almost 2 wins below IRod
1B Carlos Delgado Competition was a battle between four 1B: Delgado, Mo Vaughn, Tino Martinez and Rafael Palmeiro. Vaughn had the best offense. Martinez the best defense, but Delgado had the best combination of the two.
2B Damion Easley Jose Offerman was the best offensive 2B, but Easley's defense was much better.
3B Scoot Brosius Solid offense, superior defense. John Valentin was the runner up, but was not close.
SS Derek Jeter competition between Jeter and ARod. Jeter was slightly better offensively and ARod slightly better defensively. An argument can be made for either as all star.
LF Albert Belle Best offensive player in the AL, with only slightly beloe average defense
CF Ken Griffey Typical Griffey year
LF Matt Lawton Lawton and Paul O'Neill had essentially the same offensive numbers, but Lawton was much better defensively. As a CF Bernie Williams was better than both of them so could be inserted here in place of Lawton
DH Edgar Martinez
SP Roger Clemens
SP Pedro Martinez
SP Kenny Rogers
SP Jamie Moyer
SP Chuck Finley
RP Tom Gordon
RP Mariano Rivera
Closer Michael Jackson
1. Barry Bonds 8.88 WARR
2. Mark McGwire 8.06 WARR
3. Sammy Sosa 7.3 WARR
4. Greg Maddux 7.25 WARR
5. John Olerud 7.19 WARR
6. Tom Glavine 7.10 WARR
7. Kevin Brown 7.07 WARR
8. Al Leiter 7.05 WARR
9. Mike Piazza 6.97 WARR
10. Roger Clemens 6.97 WARR
11 Ken Griffey 6.92 WARR
12. Scott Brosius 6.58 WARR
13. Albert Belle 6.51 WARR
14. jeff Bagwell 6.09 WARR
15. Pedro Martinez 6.06 WARR
Rest of the top 20
Matt Lawton
Andruw Jones
Derek Jeter
Kenny Rogers
Alex Rodriguez
Note: Maddux (.28 WARR), Glavine (.57 WARR), Brown (.63 WARR) and Leiter (.26 WARR) all improved their rating with their hitting abilities.
The first thing I note is that the lists really are quite a lot alike.
I was more aggressive at position-switching, and I created a DH for the NL. So I have McGwire at DH and Olerud at 1B; if you'd told me I couldn't do that, then McGwire would be at 1B. I moved Belle to DH; if you had restricted me to actual DH's, then Belle would have been my LF and Martinez my DH. And I spread 3 AL shortstops all across the infield while Mr.C. named a 2B and a 3B. All of these are more questions of style and internal rules - they don't look like particularly large differences in evaulation.
Where there are differences, they seem to mostly be about defensive value. And I'll admit that I didn't have much to go on for defense - just reputation and raw PO/A/E statistics (that I occasionally crudely processed into range factors). Differences over defensive value appear to account for Kent vs. Biggio at NL 2B; for Rolen vs. C. Jones at NL 3B; for A. Jones vs. Lankford at NL CF; for Easley vs. Offerman at AL 2B (although I didn't have either as a starter, using a SS instead).
Our starting rotations agree on 4 out of 5 pitchers in each league. Relief pitchers are all over the map, but I won't worry about those.
The single largest point of disagreement between me (historically) and MrC. (now): Juan Gonzalez. I had Gonzalez as my starting AL RF; MrC. didn't even mention Gonzalez as he debated AL RF between Matt Lawton and Paul O'Neill (and considered moving Bernie Williams over - I had already moved Williams to LF). That's something I need to look into a little more.
Since batted ball data has been used for defensive systems such as UZR and DRS, my belief is that defensive numbers are more reliable than those available to evauate fielding1998( although many point to the differences achieved by these two systems as a counter argument to this statement). For 1998, the two defensive systems for which I can find defensive numbers easily are Total Zone (at baseball reference) and DRA (at baseball gauge). After some study of the 2 systems, I chose to use DRA. A player's total ranking may vary depending on which system that one uses.
Which brings me to the point of this point.: American League right fielders in 1998.
OCF, The reason that Juan Gonzalez did not rate a mention was because of his "defense". Offensively, he was my highest ranked RF. However, according to DRA, his defense rates as -22; as compare to lawton at +19 and O'Neill at +12. So with my ranking system Gonzalez comes out 3rd. At Baseball reference, O'neill ranks as the best followed by Gonzalez and Lawton.; and thus the importance of finding a community consensus for the rankings.
Although when I first look at OCF's list and my list, I am somewhat surprised by the amount of agreement; it would probably be much more surprising, and possibly disturbing, if we didn't have a significant agreement with the "best" players.
1. Barry Bonds - big offense plus good defense another great all round year.
2. Alex Rodriguez -
3. Mark McGwire - 70 HR but bad glove puts him behind Bonds and Arod
4. Kevin Brown - MLBs best Pitcher
5. Roger Clemens - Al best pitcher
6. Derek Jeter -
7. Chipper Jones -
8. Pedro Martinez - would be a career year for most pitchers
9. Greg Maddux
10. Ivan Rodriguez
11. Scott Rolen
12. Ken Griffey Jr.
13. Barry Larkin - 26 steals in 29 attempts
14. Sammy Sosa
15. Nomar Garciaparra
1. Mark McGwire, 1B, St. Louis Cardinals: huge leads in OPS+ (38 pts) and RC (40 pts)
2. Barry Bonds, LF, San Francisco Giants: better defense (+10) not enough to catch McGwire's career year with the bat
3. Greg Maddux, P, Atlanta Braves: 187 ERA+ to lead MLB
4. Albert Belle, LF, Chicago White Sox: 172 OPS+ and 158 RC lead AL
5. Alex Rodriguez, SS, Seattle Mariners: the most complete player of 1998
6. Mike Piazza, C, LAD/Florida/NYM: kept mashing for a 150 OPS+ and 124 RC despite a crazy year
7. Roger Clemens, P, Toronto Blue Jays: the best pitcher in the AL
8. Nomar Garciaparra, SS, Boston Red Sox: 140 OPS+ and +11 fielding at short
9. John Olerud, 1B, New York Mets: 163 OPS+ and +15 fielding for the quiet man
10. Kevin Brown, P, San Diego Padres: a great combo of rate (164 EA+) and bulk (MLB-leading 257 IP)
11. Pedro Martinez, P, Boston Red Sox: 163 ERA+ is second in the AL
12. Sammy Sosa, RF, Chicago Cubs: 160 OPS+ and 149 RC would be impressive most other years
13. Mo Vaughn, 1B, Boston Red Sox: 153 OPS+ and not as bad with the glove as usual (+5 fielding)
14. Trevor Hoffman, RP, San Diego Padres: 265 ERA+ in 73 IP with an NL-leading 6.3 WPA
15. Chipper Jones, 3B, Atlanta Braves: solid year with the bat (148 OPS+) garners the last ballot spot
16. Tom Glavine, P, Atlanta Braves
17. Ken Griffey Jr., CF, Seattle Mariners
18. Edgar Martinez, DH, Seattle Mariners
19. Craig Biggio, 2B, Houston Astros
20. Derek Jeter, SS, New York Yankees
21. Scott Rolen, 3B, Philadelphia Phillies
22. Rafael Palmeiro, 1B, Baltimore Orioles
23. Ivan Rodriguez, C, Texas Rangers
24. Vladimir Guerrero, RF, Montreal Expos
25. Jeff Bagwell, 1B, Houston Astros
This season was about the HR chase & honestly I may have valued that narrative a little too much but the top 14 were very close
1. McGwire- it was awesome (at the time ) that he broke the record but great season was good enough to be MMP regardless
2. Bonds- sadly it's alleged that the HR chase made his hat size start growing a few sizes...
3. A Rodriguez- him and Bonds were best overall players
4. Sosa - the other half of the narrative was Sosa chasing Mac and spurring the Cubs to their first postseason since 89, at the time I was all for Sosa being MVP over Mac due to leading Cubs to WC as Mac's co-star
5. Belle-professional hitter
6. Brown-he was so ugly to watch pitch but he was great
7. Griffey -wait wasn't Griff supposed to break the HR record
8. Clemens-overcame poor start
9. Jeter-top player for ensemble 114 win NY team
10.Maddux-two rotation mates close for Atlanta's ensemble cast
11.Glavine
12.Biggio
13.Pedro Martinez-gave up a lot of HR in the first year at Fenway in AL
14.Olerud -not a tree hugging hippie
15.Piazza-just over Chipper for last spot
Close in no particular order- Chipper, G Vaughan, Nomah, Pudge, Hoffman, Vlad, Bags, Alou, Rolen, Andruw
1. Kevin Brown. Arguably the best pitcher in the regular season; his good postseason work moves him to the top of my heap.
2. Greg Maddux
3. Roger Clemens - Good seasons out of all-time great pitchers.
4. Mark McGwire - 70!
5. Tom Glavine
6. Andruw Jones - Good year for the Braves, and maybe the peak of Jones' defensive greatness.
7. Pedro Martinez - A down year during Pedro's peak
8. Barry Bonds
9. Randy Johnson - A so-so start but he was pretty great down the stretch. I had really forgotten about the great pitching performances this year.
10. Albert Belle
11. Sammy Sosa - I always kind of new that Sosa's season was superficially overrated - McGwire was clearly better. I'm still surprised that I rate him this low, however.
12. Kenny Rogers
13. Jamie Moyer
14. John Olerud
15. Craig Biggio
Biggio just edges out Scott Rolen for the last spot - it's really tough for me to pick. David Wells with some postseason credit pushed toward the ballot, but he just wasn't quite there.
Others just off: Griffey, Kendall, Piazza, Rodriguez, G.Vaughn
Rotation: Kevin Brown, Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, Pedro Martinez
Bullpen: Trevor Hoffman, Kenny Rogers, Randy Johnson, Jamie Moyer, David Wells
C: Mike Piazza
1B: Mark McGwire
2B: Craig Biggio
3B: Scott Rolen
SS: Alex Rodriguez
LF: Barry Bonds
CF: Andruw Jones
RF: Sammy Sosa
Bench: Jason Kendall, John Olerud, Scott Brosius, Barry Larkin, Albert Belle, Ken Griffey Jr, Greg Vaughn
I should be able to post to the ballot thread on Wednesday.
You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.
<< Back to main