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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Monday, January 30, 2017Most Meritorious Player: 2001 DiscussionThe Diamondbacks beat the Yankees in seven games. Vote for 15. Player SH WS BBR WAR Barry Bonds 50.2 11.9 Sammy Sosa 43.8 10.3 Alex Rodriguez 34.1 8.3 Jason Giambi 38.3 9.2 Bret Boone 34.9 8.8 Rich Aurilia 32.3 6.7 Luis Gonzalez 35.6 7.9 Larry Walker 23.0 7.8 Shawn Green 34.4 7.0 Scott Rolen 27.5 5.5 Roberto Alomar 35.3 7.3 Albert Pujols 31.6 6.6 Chipper Jones 30.9 5.9 Eric Chavez 24.9 6.0 Todd Helton 25.1 7.8 Cliff Floyd 26.2 6.6 Phil Nevin 32.6 5.8 Paul Lo Duca 26.4 4.6 Lance Berkman 33.5 6.5 Jim Edmonds 27.8 5.8 Gary Sheffield 31.4 4.4 J.D. Drew 22.3 5.5 Jeff Kent 27.6 5.2 Jim Thome 31.2 5.6 Mike Piazza 22.7 4.5 Ivan Rodriguez 19.6 5.0 Ichiro Suzuki 31.9 7.7 Mike Cameron 26.6 5.9 Carlos Beltran 24.7 6.5 Corey Koskie 22.3 6.3 Bobby Abreu 28.2 5.2 Vladimir Guerrero 23.8 4.9 Manny Ramirez 24.5 5.2 Edgar Martinez 25.2 4.8 Brian Giles 28.9 5.3 Bobby Higginson 19.0 3.4 Jeff Bagwell 26.8 5.8 Troy Glaus 21.1 5.2 John Olerud 24.3 5.2 Juan Gonzalez 23.6 4.4 Carlos Delgado 25.0 4.5 Trot Nixon 20.9 3.7 Derek Jeter 27.7 5.2 Bernie Williams 26.3 5.2 Mark McLemore 18.6 3.5 Jermaine Dye 18.7 2.6 Rafael Palmeiro 24.0 4.7 Torii Hunter 18.3 4.7 Miguel Tejada 22.9 4.2 Pitcher Randy Johnson 26.0 9.4 Curt Schilling 24.3 8.5 Javier Vazquez 20.3 6.2 Mike Mussina 19.7 7.1 Greg Maddux 19.6 5.2 Joe Mays 22.4 6.6 Darryl Kile 17.8 5.0 Mark Buehrle 18.0 6.0 John Burkett 17.3 4.4 Roger Clemens 18.3 5.6 Mark Mulder 18.2 5.6 John Lieber 16.6 3.9 Pedro Martinez 12.3 5.1 Roy Oswalt 14.5 4.8 Russ Ortiz 15.4 4.6 Steve Sparks 15.1 4.3 Chan Ho Park 16.1 4.3 Wade Miller 17.0 5.2 Kerry Wood 13.5 3.6 Tom Glavine 16.1 3.6 Tim Hudson 17.5 4.4 Matt Morris 17.6 3.9 Bartolo Colon 13.8 4.5 Barry Zito 15.8 4.4 Brad Radke 17.2 4.6 Mariano Rivera 18.4 3.4 Jeff Zimmerman 13.5 3.4 Keith Foulke 16.9 3.8 Felix Rodriguez 12.1 3.3 Byung-Hyun Kim 15.1 3.2
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BookmarksYou must be logged in to view your Bookmarks. Hot TopicsReranking First Basemen: Discussion Thread
(36 - 11:28am, Jun 05) Last: Alex02 Reranking Shortstops Ballot (12 - 10:03am, Jun 05) Last: DL from MN Reranking Shortstops: Discussion Thread (68 - 9:55am, Jun 05) Last: Alex02 2024 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion (118 - 4:10pm, May 30) Last: Kiko Sakata Cal Ripken, Jr. (15 - 12:42am, May 18) Last: The Honorable Ardo New Eligibles Year by Year (996 - 12:23pm, May 12) Last: cookiedabookie Reranking Centerfielders: Results (20 - 10:31am, Apr 28) Last: cookiedabookie Reranking Center Fielders Ballot (20 - 9:30am, Apr 06) Last: DL from MN Ranking Center Fielders in the Hall of Merit - Discussion Thread (77 - 5:45pm, Apr 05) Last: Esteban Rivera Reranking Right Fielders: Results (34 - 2:55am, Mar 30) Last: bjhanke 2023 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion (376 - 10:42am, Mar 07) Last: Dr. Chaleeko Reranking Right Fielders: Ballot (21 - 5:20pm, Mar 01) Last: DL from MN Ranking Right Fielders in the Hall of Merit - Discussion thread (71 - 9:47pm, Feb 28) Last: Guapo Dobie Moore (239 - 10:40am, Feb 11) Last: Mike Webber Ranking Left Fielders in the Hall of Merit - Discussion thread (96 - 12:21pm, Feb 08) Last: DL from MN |
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1. DL from MN Posted: January 30, 2017 at 02:58 PM (#5392663)Anyway: NL all-star team, with batting order:
1. Jim Edmonds, CF
2. Chipper Jones, 1B (!)
3. Sammy Sosa, RF
4. Barry Bonds, LF
5. Luis Gonzalez, DH
6. Albert Pujols, 3B
7. Rich Aurilia, SS
8. Mike Piazza, C
9. Jeff Kent, 2B
Starter #1: Randy Johnson
Starter #2: Curt Schilling
Starter #3: Darryl Kile
Starter #4: Greg Maddux
Starter #5: John Burkett
Reserves:
Paul LoDuca, C
Phil Nevin, IF
Jimmy Rollins, SS
Brian Giles, OF
Lance Berkman, OF
Todd Helton, 1B
Billy Wagner, Closer
Byung-Hyun Kim, RP
Matt Morris, P
Tom Glavine, P
Kerry Wood, P
One quote: “Third base and first base were quite complicated. … I get an offensive order of Jones, Pujols, Nevin, Helton, Klesko, Bagwell - all three third basemen ahead of all three first basemen. But are they really third basemen? Jones consistently posts some of the worst defensive statistics among third basemen. During the part of the year he played there, Pujols had fairly good statistics at third base, but in the last half of the season, the Cardinals played him only at LF and 1B. Helton is a good defensive first baseman, Klesko isn’t, and I don’t know about Bagwell. The decision I came up with - Pujols and Jones in the starting lineup, Helton and Nevin on the bench - was not inevitable.”
Another quote: “There were three great offensive outfielders in Bonds, Sosa, and Gonzalez. Unfortunately, none of them is a centerfielder. Edmonds was the by far the best hitter among those whose primary position was CF, but there’s also a reasonable argument for Brian Giles. Giles was a slightly better offensive player than Edmonds, but his playing time is listed as 124 games in LF, 61 games in CF (hence 26 games in which he played both positions). Gary Matthews, Jr. played most of the CF for the Pirates (and didn’t hit a lick).”
1. Roberto Alomar, 2B
2. Manny Ramirez, LF
3. Alex Rodriguez, SS
4. Jason Giambi, 1B
5. Jim Thome, DH
6. Bret Boone, 3B (out of position)
7. Juan Gonzalez, RF
8. Ivan Rodriguez, C
9. Carlos Beltran, CF
Starter #1: Freddy Garcia
Starter #2: Joe Mays
Starter #3: Mike Mussina
Starter #4: Mark Mulder
Starter #5: Mark Buehrle
Reserves:
Jorge Posada, C
Miguel Tejada, SS
Troy Glaus, 3B
Ichiro Suzuki, OF
Edgar Martinez, DH
Magglio Ordonñez, OF
Mariano Rivera, Closer
Kazuhiro Sasaki, RP
Jamie Moyer, P
Tim Hudson, P
Roger Clemens, P
A few quotes about this:
“For the first time in 6 years, there is only one shortstop in the starting lineup. Garciaparra missed nearly the entire season due to injury, and Jeter’s defensive limitations helped push him out of the starting lineup. “ I also commented on a relative shortage of outfielders in the AL and mentioned that Manny was more often a DH than a LF.
1. Johsnon
2. Schilling
3. Kile
4. Maddux
5. Burkett (close call over Morris)
AL Cy Young:
1. Garcia
2. Mays
3. Mussina
4. Mulder
5. Buehrle
I commented on the fact that quite a few of these pitchers (in the AL) were pretty young, but they also had rather low strikeout rates - in particular, I noted that Mays had a strikeout rate quite a bit below league average. I assume that those of you who use defense-independent stats won’t have Mays anywhere near the top, and possibly not Buehrle or Garcia, either. I also decried the fact that Clemens would probably get the CYA.
NL MVP:
1. Barry Bonds
2. Sammy Sosa
3. Luis Gonzalez
4. Randy Johnson
5. Albert Pujols
6. Chipper Jones
7. Rich Aurilia
“I have often said that I have a very simple search technique for MVP candidates: check the leader lists for On Base Percentage and Slugging Average. Anyone who is on both lists is automatically a candidate. If anyone leads the league in both categories, that is a prima facie case for being the MVP - you’re going to have to prove why not, and you need some big weapons to make that argument. So, if that’s the criterion, what can you possibly say about someone who set the single-season record for slugging percentage, breaking a record that until very recently seemed unbreakable? When that was accompanied by the highest On Base Percentage since 1957, one of the top 10 OBP seasons of all time?”
AL MVP
1. Alex Rodriguez
2. Jason Giambi
3. Roberto Alomar
4. Jim Thome
5. Bret Boone
6. Manny Ramirez
7. Edgar Martinez
I had a long discussion about Ichiro, with an extensive comparison of Ichiro 2001 to Willie McGee 1985. It’s really quite a good match. Of course, I don’t think McGee deserved the 1985 NL MVP, either.
“And yet, there’s an edge of dissatisfaction. The Giants didn’t win the division. The Giants, despite the presence of this monster and the all-star shortstop and second baseman, merely placed 5th in the league in runs scored. Arizona had the same number of hits as the Giants (that is, essentially the same batting average), 25 fewer doubles and triples, 27 fewer home runs, 38 fewer walks - and yet, the Diamondbacks scored 19 more runs than the Giants. I thank [my son] for pointing this out: Bonds was the only player in history on anything like a full season to have fewer than 2.0 RBI per home run. There it is in Bond’s case: 73 HR, 137 RBI. I checked this against some other odd cases. My two favorite examples from 1987 of the damage done by bad lineup placement: Leon Durham, 27 HR, 63 RBI; Brook Jacoby 32 HR, 69 RBI. In 1996, Brady Anderson did manage to get 110 RBI with his 50 HR, and he was batting leadoff. The Giants had the most horribly dysfunctional offense you’ve ever seen, and I’m not sure I can completely explain why. Sure, they had awful leadoff hitters (mostly Calvin Murray and Marvin Benard). Sure, Bonds would probably have been better off batting 4th instead of 3rd. Rich Aurilia is a wonderful hitter (for a shortstop) but his strength is in hitting home runs, not in leaving runners on base for Bonds coming up behind him. Sure, Jeff Kent had an “anti-clutch” season in which he didn’t match his good average and plentiful extra-base hits with the opportunities that Bonds’s 177 walks left him. (Kent had only 106 RBI, which is pathetically low, given his circumstances.) You can’t pin this dysfunction on Bonds himself - his situational statistics show that he did rise to the occasion when he had runners on base or runners in scoring position. I still can’t adequately explain what happened to the Giants.”
(After a table of runs scored per game for each league): "That’s news: run scoring dipped, by quite a bit. In the AL, scoring was the lowest in 6 years. In that context, by having the same year he had last year, Jason Giambi actually had a better year."
"Much of the sentiment around Bonds' 73 HR took the form that while McGwire’s 70 was special this, coming just 3 years later, wasn’t, and that of course someone’s going to hit 75 in another couple of years, and 80 after that, and so on. This might be right - as long as HR per game are at 1.1 or 1.15, that record will be vulnerable. The 2000-to-2001 offense drop might a blip that will reverse in another year. But don’t rule out that it might be a trend, an institutions-of-baseball reaction against the excesses of the 1994-2000 period. When Babe Ruth hit 60 HR in 1927, it was an event of little significance - stretching by 1 a 6-year-old record. Surely that one would also soon fall, wouldn’t it? In the next decade, Hack Wilson, Hank Greenberg, and Jimmy Foxx all came within 4 of breaking it - but the record stood for 34 years. I could easily be wrong, but I think that 73 is going to stand as the HR record for 20 years or more."
1) Barry Bonds - best season we have seen in the MMP voting
2) Sammy Sosa - 3 full batting wins behind Bonds
3) Alex Rodriguez - now a Ranger
4) Jason Giambi
5) Bret Boone - good glove
6) Randy Johnson - best pitcher
7) Rich Aurilia - good glove
8) Luis Gonzalez
9) Larry Walker - great fielding season
10) Shawn Green
11) Curt Schilling - lousy hitting from Johnson and Schilling
12) Scott Rolen - great fielding season (Chavez was better though)
13) Roberto Alomar
14) Albert Pujols
15) Chipper Jones
16-20) Eric Chavez, Todd Helton, Mike Mussina, Cliff Floyd, Javier Vazquez
21-26) Phil Nevin, Paul Lo Duca, Lance Berkman, Jim Edmonds, Greg Maddux, Joe Mays
2. Randy Johnson - 372 K's in 249.2 IP, plus post-season puts him slightly ahead of all-time great (roid-fueled?) offense by Sammy and Giambi
3. Sammy Sosa
4. Jason Giambi
5. Curt Schilling - with a big post-season bonus
6. Luis Gonzalez
7. Alex Rodriguez
8. Bret Boone
9. Todd Helton
10. Larry Walker
11. Rich Aurilia
12. Mike Mussina
13. Lance Berkman
14. Roberto Alomar
15. Chipper Jones
#1 through 4 are done.
Still sorting the rest of this out. #'5-15 are not in rock solid order yet. Pujols, Floyd, Chavez, Nevin and Maddux are in the running to bump off #'s 12 thru 15, possibly.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1278
Most Valuable Player, AL: Jason Giambi, Athletics
Most Valuable Player, NL: Barry Bonds, Giants
Cy Young, AL: Freddy García, Mariners
Cy Young, NL: Randy Johnson, Diamondbacks
1. Barry Bonds, LF, San Francisco Giants: the year Barry broke baseball- 259 OPS+ and 230 runs created
2. Sammy Sosa, RF, Chicago Cubs: 203 OPS+ and he's not even close to first place
3. Jason Giambi, 1B, Oakland Athletics: a 199 OPS+ to lead the AL
4. Alex Rodriguez, SS, Texas Rangers: 160 OPS+ and 159 RC for his new team
5. Luis Gonzalez, LF, Arizona Diamondbacks: 174 OPS+ in the desert
6. Randy Johnson, P, Arizona Diamondbacks: best pitcher in baseball with a 188 ERA+ and 249 IP
7. Bret Boone, 2B, Seattle Mariners: 153 OPS+ to go with +12 fielding
8. Todd Helton, 1B, Colorado Rockies: a nice follow-up to his incredible 2000 season
9. Roberto Alomar, 2B, Cleveland Indians: a 150 OPS+ this year, but watch out for that cliff, Roberto!
10. Larry Walker, RF, Colorado Rockies: 160 OPS+ and +14 fielding
11. Curt Schilling, P, Arizona Diamondbacks: overshadowed by the Big Unit but 157 ERA+ in 256 IP isn't too shabby
12. Jim Thome, 1B, Cleveland Indians: 170 OPS+ though a dreadful -9 fielding
13. Rich Aurilia, SS, San Francisco Giants: a career year out by the bay
14. Lance Berkman, LF, Houston Astros: 5th in NL OPS+
15. Chipper Jones, 3B, Atlanta Braves: 160 OPS+ from the hot corner
16. Albert Pujols, 3B/LF, St. Louis Cardinals: just missed this year but I'll think we'll hear from him again
17. Mike Mussina, P, New York Yankees: a nice debut for his new team while leading the AL in FIP
18. Shawn Green, RF, Los Angeles Dodgers
19. Greg Maddux, P, Atlanta Braves
20. Joe Mays, P, Minnesota Twins: has an argument for the top AL pitcher
21. Manny Ramirez, LF, Boston Red Sox
22. Phil Nevin, 3B, San Diego Padres
23. Ichiro Suzuki, RF, Seattle Mariners
24. John Burkett, P, Atlanta Braves
25. Freddy Garcia, P, Seattle Mariners
1. Bonds--easy & obvious #1, it's a shame that the player, the era, and the circumstances kept this season being celebrated
2. Sosa--his best overall season due to excellent BA & OBP
3. Giambi--Jason of course not Jeremy haha, excellent OBP & power > AL MVP Ichiro's high BA/Gold Glove/base running
4. Randy Johnson--underrated Koufaxian peak
5. A Rod
6. Bret Boone--edges out Suzuki
7. Ichiro Suzuki
8. Luis Gonzalez
9. Schilling--Drysdale to Big Unit's Koufax only Schilling was better than Drysdale.
10.Larry Walker--just ahead of his teammate
11.Helton
12.Roberto Alomar
13.Thome
14.Pujols--hey, I think this guy's gonna be good
15.Berkman
Best AL pitcher--Mussina I guess, not a great year for Junior circuit hurlers--edges out Clemens (who largely won CY for starting season w/a 20-1 record)& Tim Hudson
1-Bonds
2-Sosa
3-Johnson
4-Giambi
5-Schilling
6-Boone
7-Arod
8-Gonzales
9-Walker
10-Ralomar
The Best of the Rest, in order-Chavez, Green, Moose, Cameron, Pujols
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