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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Wednesday, October 19, 2022Most Meritorious Player: 2022 DiscussionPlayer Name bWAR Aaron Judge 10.6 JT Realmuto 6.5 Nolan Arenado 7.9 Andres Gimenez 7.2 Manny Machado 6.8 Paul Goldschmidt 7.8 Adley Rutschman 5.2 Tommy Edman 6.3 Mike Trout 6.3 Austin Riley 6.5 Dansby Swanson 5.7 Francisco Lindor 5.4 Julio Rodriguez 6 Yordan Alvarez 6.8 Xander Bogaerts 5.7 Mookie Betts 6.4 Jose Ramirez 6 Jeff McNeil 5.7 Carlos Correa 5.4 Jose Altuve 5.1 Marcus Semien 5.7 Michael Harris 5.3 Trea Turner 4.9 Freddie Freeman 5.9 Brandon Nimmo 5 Ha-Seong Kim 4.9 Will Smith 4.1 Jeremy Pena 4.8 Nico Hoerner 4.5 Steven Kwan 5.5 Juan Soto 5.6 Willy Adames 4.4 Daulton Varsho 4.9 Alex Bregman 4.5 Sean Murphy 3.5 Rafael Devers 4.4 Kyle Tucker 5.2 Corey Seager 4.1 KeBryan Hayes 4.3 Jake Cronenworth 4.1 Christian Walker 5.1 Brendan Rogers 4.4 Luis Arraez 4.4 Pete Alonso 4.4 Ian Happ 4.3 Jose Abreu 4.2 Shohei Ohtani 3.4 Pitcher Name bWAR Sandy Alcantara 8.1 Dylan Cease 6.4 Shohei Ohtani 6.1 Justin Verlander 5.9 Aaron Nola 6 Max Fried 5.9 Alek Manoah 5.9 Carlos Rodon 5.4 Max Scherzer 5.3 Zack Wheeler 5 Zac Gallen 5.1 Martin Perez 5 Julio Urias 4.9 Tony Gonsolin 4.6 Logan Webb 4.8 Brady Singer 4.5 Yu Darvish 4.5 Tyler Anderson 4.3 Nestor Cortes 4.2 Luis Castillo 4.1 Shane McClanahan 4 Corbin Burnes 4.1 Triston McKenzie 4 Daniel Bard 3.8 |
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(2 - 5:01pm, Nov 29) Last: DL from MN Mock Hall of Fame 2024 Contemporary Baseball Ballot - Managers, Executives and Umpires (19 - 11:33am, Nov 29) Last: dark Most Meritorious Player: 2023 Ballot (12 - 5:45pm, Nov 28) Last: kcgard2 2024 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion (169 - 1:15pm, Nov 26) Last: kcgard2 Most Meritorious Player: 2023 Discussion (14 - 5:22pm, Nov 16) Last: Bleed the Freak Reranking First Basemen: Results (55 - 11:31pm, Nov 07) Last: Chris Cobb Mock Hall of Fame Discussion Thread: Contemporary Baseball - Managers, Executives and Umpires 2023 (15 - 8:23pm, Oct 30) Last: Srul Itza Reranking Pitchers 1893-1923: Results (7 - 9:28am, Oct 17) Last: Chris Cobb Ranking the Hall of Merit Pitchers (1893-1923) - Discussion (68 - 1:25pm, Oct 14) Last: DL from MN Reranking Pitchers 1893-1923: Ballot (13 - 2:22pm, Oct 12) Last: DL from MN Reranking Pitchers 1893-1923: Discussion (39 - 10:42am, Oct 12) Last: Guapo Reranking Shortstops: Results (7 - 8:15am, Sep 30) Last: kcgard2 Reranking First Basemen: Ballot (18 - 10:13am, Sep 11) Last: DL from MN Reranking First Basemen: Discussion Thread (111 - 5:08pm, Sep 01) Last: Chris Cobb Hall of Merit Book Club (15 - 6:04pm, Aug 10) Last: progrockfan |
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1. DL from MN Posted: October 19, 2022 at 03:24 PM (#6101667)1. Aaron Judge - his hitting domination was so far ahead of the rest of baseball that I think he's the clear #1
2. Shohei Ohtani - I also think he's the very clear #2
3. Nolan Arenado - and immediately after the top two it gets really difficult. The entire rest of this list could really go in any almost order probably
4. Manny Machado
5. Paul Goldschmidt
6. Sandy Alcantara - 55 more innings than Verlander (and 10% more innings than even the #2 pitcher in MLB) and nearly the top in ERA as well
7. Freddie Freeman
8. Yordan Alvarez - if he hadn't missed time he might be as high as #3 if he sustained the production
9. Francisco Lindor
10. Justin Verlander
11. Mookie Betts
12. JT Realmuto
13. Jose Ramirez
14. Andres Gimenez
15. Dansby Swanson
16. Trea Turner
17. Max Fried
18. Aaron Nola
19. Xander Bogaerts
20. Jose Altuve
1) Aaron Judge
2) Shohei Ohtani - I predict a lot of ballots starting like this
3) JT Realmuto - catcher bonus is real here, this is why the Phillies are in the playoffs
4) Sandy Alcantara - lots of innings, is that still allowed?
5) Nolan Arenado - outstanding defensive season
6) Andres Gimenez
7) Manny Machado
8) Paul Goldschmidt
9) Adley Rutschman
10) Dylan Cease
11) Tommy Edman
12) Mike Trout
13) Austin Riley
14) Dansby Swanson
15) Francisco Lindor
16-20) Julio Rodriguez, Yordan Alvarez, Justin Verlander, Xander Bogaerts, Aaron Nola
21-25) Max Fried, Alek Manoah, Mookie Betts, Jose Ramirez, Jeff McNeil
A 15-win, 2.33 ERA, 172 ERA+, 1.012 WHIP starter with 219 Ks in 166 innings is a great pitcher.
A 15-win, 2.33 ERA, 172 ERA+, 1.012 WHIP starter with 219 Ks in 166 innings who hits 34 home runs is freakin' Superman.
Judge's 211 OPS+ season was beyond brilliant. But there are historical precedents. For what Ohtani did, there are none.
For me, it would be Ohtani over Judge in a draft, Ohtani over Judge in a Rotisserie league, and Ohtani over Judge for 2022 MMP.
I recognize and acknowledge that my position will likely be a minority view. Just wanted to chip in with my 2¢ worth.
Looking over the OPS+ leaderboard - Soto had his monster season in just 60 games, doesn't count
Frank Thomas 1994 was pretty awesome - .729 SLG but Bagwell had a .750 SLG that same season
Judge is more impressive than Schmidt in 1980. If you ignore Bonds, Sosa and McGwire I think you have to go back to 1956 Mantle to see something similar.
Considering that all three are enshrined in the HoM, I can't agree that it's appropriate to "ignore Bonds, Sosa and McGwire" in this discussion.
Still, for the sake of argument, let's buy the central proposition - and even if we do, I repeat:
There is historical precedent for what Judge did, however infrequent - and there is no historical precedent for what Ohtani did.
That, to me, is worth a whole big bunch of Merit. Just sayin'.
1956 MMP - Mickey Mantle
1996 MMP - Barry Bonds
1998 MMP - Mark McGwire
2002 MMP - Barry Bonds
2004 MMP - Barry Bonds
When you put up an offensive season like Judge did you win the MMP.
True. But none of those guys had to contend with a season like Ohtani's - because there has never been a season like Ohtani's before.
As I've acknowledged, I know it's a minority view - but I'm sticking with it.
This winter with Judge and next with Ohtani should be quite interesting as that will give a better idea of how much MLB teams value their seasons. Judge is entering his age 31 season, Ohtani will be entering his age 29 season when each plays after free agency (assuming Ohtani doesn't sign an extension before then). It'll be quite interesting to see what happens over the next 12-16 months with the 2 of them.
As to this year, MMP is pretty much a coin flip as 1 WAR is almost purely random. FanGraphs has it Judge 11.4, Ohtani 9.4, BR Judge 10.6 vs Ohtani 9.6 - so both systems put Judge ahead, one by 1 WAR, the other by 2. How much is that bonus roster slot worth? Most estimates I've seen put it around 1/2 a WAR. So that shifts it to Judge by 1/2 to 1 1/2 WAR. Oy, is this ever a coin toss. For 'how the heck did that happen' I lean towards Ohtani, although 62 HR also lands under that category. Ohtani won last year with a weaker season but also weaker opposition (sorry Vlad). A tie would be perfect here as this is just too close. Both did something not done by 'clean' players, both were 'wow' in every respect. I really have trouble with this. Both played 157 games, Ohtani had 666 PA, Judge 696. But Ohtani also faced 660 hitters (fielded 11 balls) while Judge fielded 281 balls in the outfield (mostly CF). Hrm... leading slightly towards Ohtani but dang if this isn't the toughest choice I've ever seen. Either choice is a good one.
I also see Alcantara, Realmuto, and Arenado, in some order, as a clear 3-4-5 second tier ahead of the rest of the field.
Right now I'm thinking
1. Ohtani
2. Judge
3. Alcantara
4. Goldschmidt (I think the defensive numbers don't accurately reflect his value for receiving the ball, nor talk about his clutchiness over Arenado)
5. Arenado
6. Realmuto
7. Gimenez
8. Alvarez
9. Machado
10. Cease
11-15: Trout, Riley, Manoah, Verlander, Edman,
16-20: Nola, Julio Rodriguez, Boegarts, Urias, Fried,
That seems a little low, but I get it. With the new rule for DH/Pitchers, every time Ohtani pitches and DH in the same game, it's equivalent to giving the Angels two roster spots more than another team, and in games he doesn't pitch, it's still equivalent to giving the Angels an extra roster spot. Of course the Angels management, both field manager and general manager would need to take advantage of this to make it a tangible value, but on it's own, the mere option provides the team with more roster room to either specialize, platoon or just add depth. Having an extra replacement level player technically gives no advantage, but being able to specialize that slot, and having two extra players 1/6 of the games of the year, does feel like more than half a war advantage logically speaking.
Post in the ballot thread when you are ready. I don't see any issues with your choices.
I don't follow this, could you explain?
Mystery player: 166 innings with 2.22 ERA, led the league in HR, SLG and OPS.
You're right, we've never seen anything like this before.
Oh, and then he helped his team win the World Series with 2 wins and a 1.06 ERA.
Ruth played 95 games (75% of his team's games).
Ohtani played 157 games (97% of his team's games).
The harmonic mean of Ruth's OPS+ and ERA+ is 149.2.
The harmonic mean of Ohtani's OPS+ and ERA+ is 157.4 - in a much larger sample set.
Ruth played a segregated game, which wasn't his fault but is nonetheless historically true. Ohtani played against the best in the world.
Ohtani is the first full-time two-way star in baseball history. And yes, his 2022 was historically unprecedented.
Why isn’t ballgate a much bigger scandal against MLB?!?!?
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