Hall of Merit— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best
Tuesday, February 10, 2004
Personal Hall of Merit
Awhile back I suggested that everyone keep track of their personal Hall of Merit. I keep seeing more and more references to the PHoM, which is great! So let’s provide a space for anyone who wants to post their Personal Hall of Merit. I’ll get mine up sometime in the next couple of days . . .
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1. Philip Posted: February 10, 2004 at 01:31 PM (#521755)1898 Hines
Here are my inductions:
1900: Tim Keefe, Monte Ward
1898(didn't vote, and objected to only 1 of the 4 elected) Hines, White, Barnes, Radbourn
Am I correct that Tim Spooneybarger will eventually be in your PHoM?
In their places I have Browning, Bennett and Jimmy Collins.
1898: Paul Hines, Deacon White, George Gore, Ezra Sutton
1898 - White, Hines, Gore, Radbourn (missing Barnes)
My new HOM system uses only raw WS. It "counts" any season when a player received at least 1/2 as many WS as the 2nd best position player in his league. It also obviously counts seasons when a pitcher received at least 1/2 as many WS as the 2nd best pitcher in his league. Caruthers-type combination seasons are measured by averaging the pitching and hitting 2nd place finishers. Catcher seasons are counted if they finished within 35% of the 2nd best position player in the league.
I then take a ratio of the player's season total to the appropriate 2nd place finisher or combination thereof. That number is then discounted by Marc's AA-NL discount table, and bonused by .25 per counted season for catchers and eventually relievers. Counted seasons (appropriately discounted and bonused) are then summed. For significant pre-NA careers, I add .5 to that total.
My 1892 election went:
Electees
My 1892 election went:
1898- White, Hines, Gore, McVey (missing Barnes)
Sam Thompson 1905 vs. not yet
As Steve Goodman once sang, "That's not an easy thing to do..."
(...though he was referring to the fact that his "old man" "could look you in the eye and sell you a car." Anybody know that song? 'Course, now "the old man's gone," and not only that, so is Steve. R.I.P. You, too, Charlie Bennett, Charley Jones and Ezra Sutton. Poor b***ds.)
Bob Caruthers
1898 Radbourne
Barnes won't be joining my HoM, McVey might get in during a drought year, but Pearce probably will make it in pretty soon.
1898
Yr, WS, W3, Rookie, Name, Pos, Died
If I ever decide to submit my PHoM, it would have to been created with the help of my present system (or else stupidity such as my championing Tip O'Neill for a few elections would have been rewarded). :-)
If I change my methods in the future, I probably won't change my PHOM.
If I change my methods in the future, I probably won't change my PHOM.
If I change my methods in the future, I probably won't change my PHOM.
1898 - Barnes, Radbourne, Spalding, Hines
1899 - Caruthers, Kelly
1900 - Clarkson, Ward
1901 - White, Glasscock
1902 - Brouthers, Thompson
1903 - Anson, Connor
1904 - Gore, G. Wright
1905 - Rusie, McCormick
1906 - Keefe
1907 - Hamilton
1908 - Jennings
1909 - Delahanty
1910 - Galvin
1911 - Nichols
1912 - Burkett, Griffith
1913 - Bennett
1914 - Kelley
1915 - Dahlen, Davis
1916 - Collins
1917 - Young, Flick
1918 - Keeler
1919 - Clarke, McPhee
1920 - Walsh
1921 - Grant Johnson, Wallace
1922 - Lajoie, Mathewson
1923 - Wagner
1924 - Crawford, Plank
1925 - Sheckard, O'Rourke
1926 - Pearce, Pike
1927 - Williamson, Grant
1928 - Baker, Rube Foster
1929 - Ewing, Joe Jackson
1930 - Cal McVey, Pete Hill
As of now, the differences between the MP HoM and the real thing are,
But for those of us who are trying to identify the game's all-time elite in a more subjective manner, it matters greatly that Williamson has about four years of playing time where he was in actuality an excellent 3B but was instead being used as a poor SS.
This is the old 'value' vs. 'ability' argument. Yes, Williamson could have been a great thirdbaseman during those years. But the fact is, he wasn't. He was a bad shortstop. Should we give credit to Williamson because he would have been a great thirdbaseman during those years? What are we trying to measure here, Williamson's overall ability, or Williamson's value that he gave to his teams.
Look at it this way, if Williamson had only been a slightly above-average 3B, his team wouldn't have thought he could handle SS, wouldn't have shifted him, and his fielding numbers for those years would be, say, +10 runs rather than -62. Should he be penalized for being such a great fielder that his manager thought (erroneously) that he could make an unorthodox late-career transition to the most difficult fielding position?
This is a very tough decision. On the one hand, I don't think that a player should be penalized because he was a great fielder. But, I also don't want to give credit for what he didn't do, but could have.
I probably won't give him extra credit for those years, since we'll need to then determine what other players were playing their 2nd best position, rather than their primary position, and give them credit for it. That's just a sticky situation all around.
I'm trying to keep an open mind, but we've been saying all along on this project that we should vote based on a player's value to his teams, not that player's ability. Should we change that now?
It doesn't matter to me how many players this affects. It could be Williamson alone, or hundreds. It just seems to me that it would be a change in the voting requirements that we've all been using since the start.
I think Williamson is a fantastic player, and have him ranked just off my ballot and I think he deserves more recognition. It is very unfortunate that this situation affects him. But I just can't change the rules we've all been using since the start for any player, even Williamson.
It shouldn't matter for guys like Mel Ott (who will have no trouble making the HOM, and only moved for one year) or Pete Rose (who has other issues, but is also a sure HOMer) but like Rick, I'm wary about who should be reconsidered.
BTW, Pedro Guerrero says: Please upgrade my 1983 and 1984 seasons accordingly.
So I can't get too excited the injection of this particular ability argument. Just more fodder for the (evaluation) machine.
Marc,
That's probably true, but that would explain why I have such a problem with it. I don't timeline. I'm one of those people that have Pike and Pearce high on my ballot, as I know you do too.
My question then is, if you're against a using a timeline to measure ability, why is it OK to measure ability because of a position change?
So my in constructing my final ballot, I basically make a subjective choice. Ed Williamson and Jimmy Collins have basically the same numbers, which one is going to rank higher? Well, Collins played later against tougher competition (I don't timeline, but I don't deny that it is harder to dominate as time goes by). And Williamson played SS for three years. And...and...and. And which one do I really want to see in the HoM first?
So the subjective stuff is important at that level. But I would say that what we're trying to measure is still value, not ability. And I would say that the timeline has nothing to do with value, it is anti-value. It says my pennant is worth more than my father's pennant. Ed's playing some SS OTOH had value in a team context. So I think Ed's SS thing is a more valid consideration than a timeline.
1898: Charley Radbourn, Paul Hines, Ross Barnes, George Gore
1899: Jim O'Rourke, King Kelly
1900: John Clarkson, Harry Stovey
1901: Tim Keefe, Al Spalding
1902: Dan Brouthers, Sam Thompson
1903: Cap Anson, Roger Connor
1904: Amos Rusie, Jack Glasscock
1905: Bid McPhee, Pete Browning
1906: Bob Caruthers
1907: Billy Hamilton
1908: Deacon White
1909: Ed Delahanty
1910: Hardy Richardson
1911: Kid Nichols
1912: Jesse Burkett, Buck Ewing
1913: Mike Tiernan
1914: Cal McVey
1915: George Davis, Bill Dahlen
1916: Elmer Flick
1917: Cy Young, Willie Keeler
1918: Fred Clarke
1919: Joe Kelley, Rube Waddell
1920: Ed Walsh, Bobby Wallace
1921: Addie Joss, Vic Willis
1922: Nap Lajoie, Christy Mathewson
1923: Honus Wagner
1924: Sam Crawford, Mordecai Brown
1925: Eddie Plank, Sherry Magee
1926: Joe Jackson, Gavvy Cravath
No third basemen picked in fifty years of baseball history (and White doesn't count)?
He does like Ross Barnes, so it appears he doesn't have any problems with the NA though.
Jimmy Collins was certainly a terrific defensive 3B, but given that he was only average with the stick, I'd need to see a longer career to elect him (a la Bobby Wallace, Bid McPhee). Sutton was an average defensive 3B (according to BPro) and only rang up a .273 career EqA. By my count, those are the only two that have been elected to the actual HoM, no? We all know 3B is historically the weakest position. Home Run Baker will make my PHoM as the first 3B, most likely.
Can someone explain to me why Wright is so admired? By my count, he had five very good years (1871-6), and was pretty good in 1877 and 1879. Cal McVey (who is in my PHoM) seems at least a better hitter than Wright. I know Wright played SS, but his career was so short.
I have Spalding, Barnes, Anson, White, Hines, McVey, and O'Rourke from the 1870's...just not Ward and Wright. I'd love to hear all of your thoughts.
But he was an above average hitter for the position. Third base then shouldn't be compared to now. There was a higher premium on fielding.
Sutton was an average defensive 3B (according to BPro)
Win Shares disagrees (not to mention contemporary sources). He had the best arm of his generation.
As for his hitting, he was above average there, too. Combine that with a lengthy career makes him the best third baseman of the 19th century, IMO.
Sutton's career spanned major changes in schedule length. He loses a lot of value at BP because they don't adjust for that, especially in a counting stat like FRAA.
Often its hard to intrepret pre-NA data because of differences in schedule and its incompleteness... but there is more data for 69-70 than there is for previous years and GWright's numbers are so much above any of his teammates (and he had some good teammates) that its just impossible to ignore.
IMO, Wright was the best major league shortstop from 1867-1870, 1872-1875 (the last year he was tied with Force), 1876 and 1879. I also have him as the best major league second baseman for 1877. That sounds like a HoMer to me, though his career was somewhat on the short side.
In the PHoM but not in the HoM:
Browning, McGinnity and Bresnahan
In the Hom but not in the PHoM:
Spalding, Galvin and Grant
1898: Deacon White, Al Spalding, Pud Galvin, George Gore
1899: Jim O’Rourke, Tim Keefe
1900: John Clarkson, John Ward
1901: Paul Hines, King Kelly
1902: Dan Brouthers, Buck Ewing
1903: Roger Connor, Ross Barnes
1904: Cap Anson, Charles Radbourn
1905: George Wright, Bid McPhee
1906: Amos Rusie
1907: Billy Hamilton
1908: Ezra Sutton
1909: Ed Delahanty
1910: Sam Thompson
1911: Kid Nichols
1912: Jesse Burkett, Frank Grant
1913: Cal McVey
1914: Joe Kelley
1915: Harry Stovey, Joe Start
1916: Willie Keeler
1917: Cy Young, Fred Clarke
1918: Elmer Flick
1919: Jimmy Collins, Joe Start
1920: Ed Walsh
1921: Charlie Bennett, George Davis
1922: Nap Lajoie, Christy Mathewson
1923: Honus Wagner
1924: Eddie Plank, Grant Johnson
1925: Mordecai Brown, Sam Crawford
1926: Mickey Welch, Joe McGinnity
1927: Jake Beckley, Dickey Pearce
Jack Glasscock, Hardy Richardson, and Bill Dahlen are in the HoM but not my PHoM
Welch, McGinnity, Beckley, and Pearce are in my PHoM but not the HoM.
Charlie Bennett
Jimmy Collins (but he is close every year!)
Buck Ewing
Jow McGinnity
Hardy Richardson
Harry Stovey
Sam Thompson
Ed Walsh
George Wright
In my PHoM, but not in the HoM:
George Van Haltren
Jake Beckley
Jimmy Ryan
Tommy Leach
Spotswood Poles
Mickey Welch
Hugh Duffy
Harry Hooper
Dobie Moore
1898: George Gore, Paul Hines, Deacon White, George Wright
1899: King Kelly, Jim O'Rourke
1900: John Clarkson, Charles Radbourn
1901: Jack Glasscock, Monte Ward
1902: Dan Brouthers, Buck Ewing
1903: Cap Anson, Roger Connor
1904: Amos Rusie, Hardy Richardson
1905: Bid McPhee, Charlie Bennett
1906: Ross Barnes
1907: Billy Hamilton
1908: Hughie Jennings
1909: Ed Delahanty
1910: Joe Start
1911: Kid Nichols
1912: Jesse Burkett, Sam Thompson
1913: Bob Caruthers
1914: Tim Keefe
1915: Bill Dahlen, George Davis
1916: Elmer Flick
1917: Willie Keeler, Cy Young
1918: Pud Galvin
1919: Fred Clarke, Joe Kelley
1920: Ed Walsh
1921: Grant Johnson, Bobby Wallace
1922: Nap Lajoie, Christy Mathewson
1923: Honus Wagner
1924: Sam Crawford, Eddie Plank
1925: Frank Grant, Jimmy Sheckard
1926: Cal McVey, Harry Stovey
1927: Mordecai Brown, Sherry Magee
1928: Joe Jackson, Pete Hill
1929: Frank Baker, Jimmy Collins
1930: Andrew Foster, Jimmy Ryan
1931: Hugh Duffy
1932: Mike Griffin, Louis Santop
1933: Heinie Groh, Walter Johnson
1934: Ty Cobb, Joe Williams
1935: Eddie Collins, Tris Speaker
1936: Pete Alexander, John Henry Lloyd
1937: Harry Heilman, Cristobal Torriente
1938: Stan Coveleski, Zack Wheat
1939: José Méndez, Bobby Veach
1940: Red Faber, Bullet Rogan
1941: Rogers Hornsby, Babe Ruth
1942: Bill Terry, Dazzy Vance
Not in my PHOM:
1. Lip Pike
2. Max Carey
Both could make it some day in a weak 3-man election year.
3. Al Spalding
4. Ezra Sutton
5. Dickey Pearce
I think we over-romanticized early baseball. I'm not convinced on pitching's importance in the 70s, salaries notwithstanding. Sutton wasn't as good as Williamson, who is at the bottom of my ballot currently. Pearce's 60s stats weren't dominating enough considering the level of competition (they were dominating during and before the Civil War, when competition was even worse).
I could be wrong on all of these guys, though. Not upset they got in.
6. Joe McGinnity - The one guy I think we made a mistake on. Career not particularly long, peak not all that high.
In my PHOM, not in HOM:
1. Hugh Duffy
2. Mike Griffin
3. Jimmy Ryan
Mistakes from earlier ballots that I couldn't avoid inducting, without pretending my earlier ballots didn't exist.
4. Hughie Jennings
5. José Méndez
6. Bobby Veach
More recent inductees, except for Jennings, who has been in forever. All 3 still real high on my ballot.
1898: Paul Hines, Deacon White, George Gore, Ezra Sutton
1899: Jim O’Rourke, King Kelly
1900: John Ward, John Clarkson
1901: Jack Glasscock, Ross Barnes
1902: Dan Brouthers, Buck Ewing
1903: Cap Anson, Roger Connor
1904: Hardy Richardson, George Wright
1905: Bid McPhee, Joe Start
1906: Tim Keefe
1907: Billy Hamilton
1908: Cal McVey
1909: Ed Delahanty
1910: Amos Rusie
1911: Kid Nichols
1912: Jesse Burkett, Charlie Radbourn
1913: Pud Galvin
1914: Harry Stovey
1915: George Davis, Bill Dahlen
1916: Joe Kelley
1917: Cy Young, Fred Clarke
1918: Al Spalding
1919: Elmer Flick, Lip Pike
1920: Charlie Bennett
1921: Jimmy Collins, Ed Walsh
1922: Napoleon Lajoie, Christy Mathewson
1923: Honus Wagner
1924: Sam Crawford, Home Run Johnson
1925: Willie Keeler, Eddie Plank
1926: Jimmy Sheckard, Bobby Wallace
1927: Joe McGinnity, Pete Browning
1928: Frank Baker, Joe Jackson
1929: Mordecai Brown, Charley Jones
1930: Dickey Pearce, Pete Hill
1931: Bob Caruthers
1932: Luis Santop, Hughie Jennings
1933: Walter Johnson, Sherry Magee
1934: Ty Cobb, Eddie Collins
1935: Tris Speaker, Pop Lloyd
1936: Pete Alexander, Smokey Joe Williams
1937: Cristobal Torriente, Harry Heilman
1938: Cupid Childs, Frank Grant
1939: Heinie Groh, Zack Wheat
1940: Bullet Joe Rogan, Stan Coveleski
1941: Babe Ruth, Rogers Hornsby
1942: Clark Griffith, Tommy Leach
Not counting 1942:
in PHOM, not HOM:
Pete Browning, Charley Jones, Hughie Jennings, Cupid Childs
in HOM, not PHOM:
Sam Thompson, Rube Foster, Max Carey, Red Faber
Personal HOM:
1898: Deacon White, Paul Hines, George Gore, Old Hoss Radbourn
1899: Jim O’Rourke, Tim Keefe
1900: John Clarkson, King Kelly
1901: John Ward, Ross Barnes
1902: Dan Brouthers, Buck Ewing
1903: Cap Anson, Roger Connor
1904: George Wright, Ezra Sutton
1905: Jack Glasscock, Pud Galvin
1906: Joe Start
1907: Billy Hamilton
1908: Cal McVey
1909: Ed Delahanty
1910: Charlie Bennett
1911: Kid Nichols
1912: Jesse Burkett, Amos Rusie
1913: Bid McPhee
1914: Hardy Richardson
1915: George Davis, Bill Dahlen
1916: Al Spalding
1917: Cy Young, Fred Clarke
1918: Harry Stovey
1919: Jimmy Collins, Lip Pike
1920: Ed Walsh
1921: Elmer Flick, Dickey Pearce
1922: Napoleon Lajoie, Christy Mathewson
1923: Honus Wagner
1924: Sam Crawford, Eddie Plank
1925: Home Run Johnson, Bobby Wallace
1926: Joe Jackson, Joe Kelley
1927: Willie Keeler, Frank Grant
1928: Frank Baker, Three Finger Brown
1929: Bob Caruthers, Pete Hill
1930: Sherry Magee, Jimmy Sheckard
1931: Joe McGinnity
1932: Luis Santop, Cupid Childs
1933: Walter Johnson, Zack Wheat
1934: Ty Cobb, Eddie Collins
1935: Pop Lloyd, Tris Speaker
1936: Pete Alexander, Smokey Joe Williams
1937: Harry Heilmann, Cristobal Torriente
1938: Heinie Groh, Stan Coveleski
1939: Joe Sewell, Bill Monroe
1940: Bullet Joe Rogan, Tommy Leach
1941: Babe Ruth, Rogers Hornsby
1942: Dazzy Vance, Red Faber
in PHOM, not HOM:
Cupid Childs, Joe Sewell, Bill Monroe, Tommy Leach
in HOM, not PHOM:
Sam Thompson, Rube Foster, Max Carey
(pending 1942 election results, assuming Vance is in)
1898: Deacon White, Paul Hines, George Gore, Ross Barnes
1899: Jim O'Rourke, King Kelly
1900: John Clarkson, Tim Keefe
1901: John Ward, George Wright
1902: Dan Brouthers, Buck Ewing
1903: Roger Connor, Cap Anson
1904: Amos Rusie, Jack Glasscock
1905: Charley Radbourn, Al Spalding
1906: Pud Galvin
1907: Billy Hamilton
1908: Hardy Richardson
1909: Ed Delahanty
1910: Ezra Sutton
1911: Kid Nichols
1912: Cal McVey, Jesse Burkett
1913: Joe Start
1914: Bid McPhee
1915: George Davis, Bill Dahlen
1916: Charlie Bennett
1917: Cy Young, Fred Clarke
1918: Lip Pike
1919: Elmer Flick, Dickey Pearce
1920: Ed Walsh
1921: Grant Johnson, Joe Kelley
1922: Nap Lajoie, Christy Mathewson
1923: Honus Wagner
1924: Sam Crawford, Eddie Plank
1925: Frank Grant, Jimmy Collins
1926: Bobby Wallace, Charley Jones
1927: Joe Jackson, Sherry Magee
1928: Frank Baker, Harry Stovey
1929: Pete Browning, Pete Hill
1930: Mordecai Brown, Rube Foster
1931: Willie Keeler
1932: Louis Santop, Joe McGinnity
1933: Walter Johnson, Zack Wheat
1934: Ty Cobb, John Henry Lloyd
1935: Eddie Collins, Smokey Joe Williams
1936: Pete Alexander, Tris Speaker
1937: Cristobal Torriente, Harry Heilmann
1938: Cupid Childs, Hughie Jennings
1939: Stan Coveleski, Heinie Groh
1940: Joe Rogan, Eppa Rixey
1941: Babe Ruth, Rogers Hornsby
1942: Vic Willis, Dazzy Vance
not including 1942:
in PHOM, not HOM
Cupid Childs, Hughie Jennings, Charley Jones, Pete Browning, Eppa Rixey
in HOM, not PHOM
Jimmy Sheckard, Max Carey, Sam Thompson, Bob Caruthers, Red Faber
1920 Thompson
1921 Duffy and Wallace
1922 Lajoie and Mathewson
1923 Wagner
1924 Crawford and Plank
1925 Brown and Harry Wright
1926 Jackson and Levi meyerle
1927 Cicotte and Grant
1928 Griffith and Hill
1929 Keeler and Baker
1930 Browning and Rochardson
1931 Pearce
1932 McPhee and Santop
1933 Johnson and Wheat
1934 Cobb and E. Collins
1935 Speaker and Williams
1936 Lloyd and Alexander
1937 Heilmann and Torriente
1938 Sisler and J. Collins
1939 Leever and Schang
1940 Hack Wilson and Flick
1941 Ruth and Hornsby
1942 Cupid Childs and Charley Jones
So as of 1941, I had enshrined nonHOMers: Welch, Beckley, Duffy, Harry Wright, Meyerle, Cicotte, Griffith, Browning, Sisler, Leever, Schang, and Wilson (12)
I had not enshrined HOMers: Walsh, Bennett, Home Run Johnson, Magee, Sheckard, Rube Foster, Groh, Covaleski, Faber, Carey, Rogan and Pike (12 - whew!)
Walsh, Groh, Covaleski, Faber and Rogan are closest
Wright and Meyerle are now somewhat regretted, but none of the others.
John can that be fixed ?
Anyway, my 1892 ballot, just for sh!t and giggles, I'll include Pennants Added (calced with team data through 1891 only), WSaR and WARP3:
Notice Pennants Added are considerably lower than they are through 1944 - that is because the best teams were much better than the rest of the pack back then, so the impact one great season could have on a pennant race was smaller, most of these teams were either good enough to win anyway, or didn't have a chance no matter what one player they'd add.
The back end of the ballot (after Meyerle) is a little sketchy, I may have missed someone, but I'm comfortable with this.
This was a 1-electee year, that's why Start is capitalized. His pre-1871 contributions are more than enough to push him past Wright and Barnes. Likewise, Wright's pre-1871 playing pushes him past Barnes.
I decided to bump Meyerle over Bond.
Williamson and Dunlap rate ahead of York because I think WS overrates OF a little and underrates IF a little. Williamson rates ahead of Dunlap because I think WARP overrates 2B and underrates 3B from this era.
The case could be made to place Radbourn as high as #2 (after Hines), or as low as in-between Jones and Williamson. I can't see ranking Welch much higher than McCormick.
Radbourn was arguably the best pitcher of his generation (clearly in the group with Clarkson, Keefe and Galvin) - I just can't see ignoring this generation of pitchers.
Welch is over McCormick despite the numbers shown for two reasons - 1) his RSI record is better; 2) there is evidence that the numbers don't accurately reflect his value, because he faced tougher opponents than typical due to his usage pattern.
Congrats John Murphy, Dickey Pearce enters my PHoM in 1898!
I decided to move Pike ahead of Radbourn, he wasn't getting enough pre-1871 credit.
So far . . .
1892 - Joe Start 1B
1893 - George Wright SS
1894 - Ross Barnes 2B
1895 - Ezra Sutton 3B
1896 - Deacon White C/3B
1897 - Paul Hines CF
1898 - Dickey Pearce SS
Note to the new Veterans Committee: 7 PHoMers, just one is in the Hall of Fame . . .
Anyway, as regards your listings, a couple comments/questions. Did you forget Harry Wright? (Al Reach and Dick McBride are a couple other 1870's stars who come to mind.) Also, you have Jim Whitney coming on in 1895. He pitched 6 games in 1890 (our rule is <5) so he is not eligible until 1896. And this you probably know, but Dave Orr, who received decent support in the first HoM election, is new for 1896.
Dave Orr I had, he just missed.
Harry Wright - yeah, after looking again, I guess it's hard to keep him out after putting Pearce in. Why didn't he get much support from us? No best friend in our group?
Is he (like Pearce or Start) a guy that would be an absolute no-brainer if we had readily available stats from the 1860s? If so, I need to redo the ballots above.
Al Reach, I believe is outside the scope of where we were going here, he only had 400 PA in the NA and wasn't 35 when the league started (he was 31). I could be convinced otherwise.
I'm not a big fan of NA pitching anyway, and if Spalding is having trouble, I can't see McBride. Was he a star pre-NA, is the NA his decline period? Would seem strange, since he was only 26 when the league started.
Lemme know what you think . . . thanks!
The Marshall Wright data I posted here in the late 20's is still in the Yahoo group. From what that data shows, Harry was spending a lot of time playing cricket in the 1860's and not enough time playing baseball. By the time he settled for the great Cincinnati Red Stockings run in 1869-70, he was one of their least productive batsman.
He's an easy pick for a pioneer/managing wing, of course.
As for pre-1871 Karl, I wouldn't say it doesn't count. I would say we need some evidence of greatness post-1871 then we'll count pre-1871. Like Dickey Pearce. His 1874 is pretty strong evidence that he was a great player at one point. The 1860's info we have backs this up, so I have no problem putting him in.
Kind of like when we get to Ichiro! His accomplishments in Japan should count, even though we aren't considering Japanese players.
I moved Richardson over Bennett. Can't justify ranking Bennett higher, when WARP3, which is as friendly to catchers as possible, doesn't.
Caruthers is significantly higher than I've had him before this exercise.
Caruthers climbs again - the big year argument pushes him past Stovey for me. It's close, could flip them again.
The first two are no brainers, everyone waits another year for them. Thompson is a tough one. WARP and WS are wildly divergent in their opinions of him.
Thompson played 12 years, the equivalent of Jones. Thompson had a 146 OPS+ vs. Jones 149. But . . . Jones missing two years would very likely have been at a higher rate than 149 (158, 183, 156, 147, 168, 157 in the 3 years on either side). Also, his OPS+ is more OBP driven than Thompson's. And he wasn't considered a butcher like Thompson in the OF, in fact, Jones played 28% of his games in CF. Sure there's a timeline factor, but I'm not very big on timelining, I see it as a tie-breaker really. So Thompson is definitely behind Jones, and it's not a difficult choice.
Amos Rusie, I was torn on him, but then I realized even if he comes on early for his generation, he actually stradles two generations, and excelled in both of them. His translated pitching line on Prospectus is by far the best we've seen (looks a lot like Ron Guidry's real line). At the time I thought we may have jumped the gun, but looking back I think we did the right thing moving him right in.
Mike Griffin? Yeah, we've forgotten about him, but he was a heckuva player. WS and WARP see him as nearly identical to Thompson, which is quite interesting since they were very dissimilar players. But they had similar career length, played at the same time and here we are. Who am I to disagree with both systems. I'll take him over Stovey and Caruthers, by a hair.
Bid McPhee hits the ballot. Pretty fitting that he goes in with Glasscock. Glasscock was clearly the better player, IMO, but McPhee was very good for 18 years and a glove wizard at a somewhat important defensive position, the Brooks Robinson of the 19th Century.
I still have no clue why Tiernan and Thompson are viewed so differently by WARP and WS. Current backlog includes (in order) Pete Browning, Al Spalding, Fred Dunlap, Billy Nash, Tom York, Mickey Welch, Jim McCormick, John Clapp. That's about as far as I could ever see hitting a ballot.
Duffy vs. Griffin. I know WS likes Duffy better. WS overrates his 1891 in a terrible AA, but that's not enough on it's own. WARP sees them as equal in both WARP1 and WARP3. Duffy had a slightly longer career, but much of that extra length is filler, Griffin actually had more productive seasons (12-10). Also, since WARP's replacement level is too low, if WARP has two players equal, the one with the shorter career is the better player.
As hitters they were essentially equal. But Griffin played CF (was great out there too), while Duffy spread his time around the OF.
I think I've got to keep Griffin ahead for now. I could be convinced that I'm wrong though.
Duffy vs. Stovey now, ugh. Basically comes down to what you think of the AA. Also, what you think of 1B defense in this era. I'm going to keep Stovey ahead for now, but that's splitting hairs, essentially the same value from these two.
Cupid Childs pops on this year. I've got him ahead of Williamson and Tiernan, below Duffy and Stovey. I could see him possibly as high as Griffin, but that's about as high as I could push him.
Elmer Smith had a few nice years, but he's backlog. Same for Nig Cuppy.
Jennings is a very tough player to slot. Five years of greatness and nothing else. He's Sandy Koufax pre-incarnated as a shortstop. They are within 3 of each other in career WARP3. They each have 4 years of 10+ WARP3, one year at 7.7 and a bunch of filler. Jennings actually has about 20 more WARP1, meaning in his time and place he was even more valuable, the rest is timelined off.
I'm going out on a limb here. I'm essentially moving him as high as possible (for me), ahead of Richardson and below Jones. He really did compress 8 years into 4. Score one point for the peak guys. This will likely have an impact on my 1944 ballot.
I realize Childs and Duffy look very similar by the methods above. The difference is that 2B are overrated in this era by both WS and WARP. SS are probably underrated by WS which pushes Jennings higher.
Congrats to George Gore who gets in after 11 years on the ballot.
Done for the night . . . hopefully I can finish this by the end of the week.
Ugly, just no idea where to slot the guys from 10 thru 17. Honsestly any of them could be 10th or 17th. This is a best guess for now after about an hour of messing around with them. I'll work things out again when one of them is close to being elected.
Frank Grant seems pretty comparable to Richardson. I think it's fair to slot him in one behind Hardy.
Nothing new for 1910. John Ward gets in finally. Duke Farrell was the only newcomer to receive a vote. He slots in about #33 for me, between Tony Mullane and Denny Lyons.
I added Prospectus' translated pitching records to the line. Here are the lines for the pitchers elected to my HoM already, as well as a couple in the backlog:
Clark Griffith joins the group. A great peak from 1894-1901. I give the 1880s pitchers a bump over their translated records, obviously.
In PHOM, out of HoM:
Mickey Welch, Charley Jones, Pete Browning, Hugh Duffy, Cupid Childs, George Burns, George Van Haltren, Vic Willis, Ed Roush
In HoM, out of PHOM:
Spalding: have not been able to do enough research about how valuable pitching was at that time. He did receive the highest fielding support of any pitcher in history by a huge margin.
Rube Foster: Was not convinced by the numbers provided. Think Redding, B Foster, Mendez, Rogan, Williams, Paige (at least) are better.
Bobby Wallace: Rates slightly higher for me than Beckley. No peak. 1 time a league all-star by STATS or Win Shars.
Faber. OOO!! OOO!! I had two really good years and then a bunch of slightly above average, can I be in the Hall of Merit?
Carey. Did not understand the fascination with him. Does not stand out from many other outfielders.
Terry. Another instance of retiring in the right year. (see Faber, Red; Vance, Dazzy;) If he is in, so should Chance, Sisler, and Konetchy (and Fournier if you give credit for minor league time, a la Cravath).
Vance. Will make my PHOM before anyone else on the list.
Pike. Thought he was overrated.
He Who Shall Not Be Named. *oe *ack*on. Could not even buy a ticket to enter the PHOM.
I have 9 differences.
In: Jennings, Waddell, Griffith, Cross, Dunlap, Monroe, Méndez, Sewell, Beckwith
Out: I'll put these into two categories.
Likely to be inducted in the long run (In order of eventual induction; not feeling the need to argue against them too heavily when I plan on inducting them myself)
Lip Pike
Harry Stovey
Max Carey
Never, never, never (Candidly, I'm tougher on the early players. I think we got romantic about how many from that era needed to get in. I admit the possibility that I am wrong.)
Al Spalding: Not sold that pitching in his era that key.
Dickey Pearce: Did not hit *nearly* enough in the 60s by the stats we were provided. The Ozzie Smith/Bobby Wallace from the semi-organized days is not going in.
Ezra Sutton: Don't see it. Much prefer Williamson, who will be PHOM'd along with the guys above in the very long run.
Jimmy Collins: Didn't hit enough, didn't have a peak, or an exceptionally long career.
Joe McGinnity: Aside from, perhaps, Pearce, my least favorite inductee. Short career, and peak was not in the galaxy of the inductable peaks (Ferrell, Vance, Coveleski, Waddell). On second thought, I like him much less than Pearce, who is at least defensible as he played forever.
Sherry Magee: A very good hitter, but the NL was bad in those days, and his defense was insufficient to give him a peak. If he'd played in the AL, he wouldn't have been a HOMer, I think.
1898
Charlie Radbourn
Mickey Welch
Al Spalding
Pud Galvin
1899
Tim Keefe
Jim O’Rourke
1900
John Clarkson
Monte Ward
1901
Deacon White
King Kelly
1902
Dan Brouthers
Sam Thompson
1903
Cap Anson
Roger Connor
1904
Amos Rusie
Buck Ewing
1905
Ross Barnes
Cal McVey
1906
Pete Browning
1907
Billy Hamilton
1908
Hugh Duffy
1909
Ed Delahanty
1910
Lip Pike
1911
Kid Nichols
1912
Jesse Burkett
Clark Griffith
1913
Bid McPhee
1914
Joe Mcginnity
1915
Jake Beckley
Joe Kelley
1916
Willie Keeler
1917
Cy Young
Rube Waddell
1918
Addie Joss
1919
Fred Clarke
Bill Dahlen
1920
Ed Walsh
1921
George Wright
George Gore
1922
Christy Mathewson
Napoleon Lajoie
1923
Honus Wagner
1924
Sam Crawford
Three Finger Brown
1925
Eddie Plank
George Van Haltren
1926
Joe Jackson
Jimmy Ryan
1927
Pete Hill
Rube Foster
1928
Home Run Baker
Gavvy Cravath
1929
Paul Hines
Harry Stovey
1930
Jake Daubert
John McGraw
1931
Bobby Veach
1932
Ginger Beaumont
George J. Burns
1933
Walter Johnson
Zack Wheat
1934
Ty Cobb
Tris Speaker
1935
Eddie Collins
John Henry Lloyd
1936
Grover Cleveland Alexander
George Sisler
1937
Harry Heillman
Edd Roush
1938
Smokey Joe Williams
Ray Schalk
1939
Joe Sewell
Rabbit Maranville
1940
Sam Rice
Hack Wilson
1941
Babe Ruth
Rogers Hornsby
1942
Bill Terry
Pie Traynor
1943
Mickey Cochrane
Frankie Frisch
1944
Lou Gehrig
Goose Goslin
1945
Oscar Charleston
Dazzy Vance
1946
Al Simmons
Turkey Stearnes
1947
Lefty Grove
Gabby Hartnett
1948
Charlie Gehringer
Cool Papa Bell
1949
Carl Hubbell
Biz Mackey
1950
Paul Waner
Joe Cronin
1951
Jimmie Foxx
Chuck Klein
1952
Mel Ott
Bill Dickey
1953
Hank Greenberg
Josh Gibson
1954
Arky Vaughan
Willie Wells
1955
Billy Herman
Stan Hack
1956
Luke Appling
Joe Medwick
1957
Joe Dimaggio
Heinie Manush
1958
Joe Rogan
Mule Suttles
Jud Wilson
For those who enjoy making a PHOM or PHOF, and wish to share with multiple audiences, I would recommend visiting this page at baseball-fever:
http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?97245-Single-Ballot-BBF-Hall-of-Fame
Without further ado, my PHOM chronologically:
1898 Radbourn Charles
1898 Wright George
1898 White Deacon
1898 Hines Paul
1899 Kelly King
1899 Spalding Al
1900 Clarkson John
1900 Barnes Ross
1901 Glasscock Jack
1901 O'Rourke Jim
1902 Brouthers Dan
1902 Ewing Buck
1903 Anson Cap
1903 Conner Roger
1904 Rusie Amos
1904 Keefe Tim
1905 Ward John
1905 Sutton Ezra
1906 Bennett Charlie
1907 Hamilton Billy
1908 Jennings Hughie
1909 Delahanty Ed
1910 McGraw John
1911 Nichols Kid
1912 Burkett Jesse
1912 Gore George
1913 Pearce Dickey
1914 Kelley Joe
1915 Davis George
1915 Dahlen Bill
1916 Flick Elmer
1917 Young Cy
1917 Clarke Fred
1918 Keeler Willie
1919 Collins Jimmy
1919 McPhee Bid
1920 Walsh Ed
1921 Johnson Grant
1921 Wallace Bobby
1922 Mathewson Christy
1922 Lajoie Nap
1923 Wagner Honus
1924 Plank Eddie
1924 Crawford Sam
1925 Griffith Clark
1925 Start Joe
1926 Jackson Joe
1926 Magee Sherry
1927 Hill Pete
1927 Galvin Pud
1928 Baker Frank
1928 Waddell Rube
1929 Brown Mordecai
1929 Sheckard Jimmy
1930 Foster Rube
1930 Caruthers Bob
1931 Williamson Ed
1932 Méndez José
1932 Santop Louis
1933 Johnson Walter
1933 Groh Heinie
1934 Cobb Ty
1934 Collins Eddie
1935 Speaker Tris
1935 Lloyd John Henry
1936 Alexander Pete
1936 Williams Smokey Joe
1937 Heilmann Harry
1937 Torriente Cristobal
1938 Coveleski Stan
1938 Shocker Urban
1939 Smith Hilton
1939 Wheat Zack
1940 Rogan Bullet Joe
1940 Beckwith John
1941 Ruth Babe
1941 Hornsby Rogers
1942 Vance Dazzy
1942 Oms Alejandro
1943 Charleston Oscar
1943 Cochrane Mickey
1944 Gehrig Lou
1944 Frisch Frankie
1945 Foster Willie
1945 Lundy Dick
1946 Stearnes Turkey
1946 Simmons Al
1947 Grove Lefty
1947 Wilson Jud
1948 Gehringer Charlie
1948 Hartnett Gabby
1949 Hubbell Carl
1949 Lyons Ted
1950 Dihigo Martin
1950 Waner Paul
1951 Foxx Jimmie
1951 Cronin Joe
1952 Gibson Josh
1952 Ott Mel
1953 Greenberg Hank
1953 Dickey Bill
1954 Vaughan Arky
1954 Wells Willie
1955 Brown Ray
1955 Ruffing Red
1956 Appling Luke
1956 Leonard Buck
1957 DiMaggio Joe
1957 Boudreau Lou
1958 Keller Charlie
1958 Gordon Joe
1958 Ferrell Wes
1959 Paige Satchel
1959 Mize Johnny
1960 Newhouser Hal
1960 Goslin Goose
1961 Rizzuto Phil
1962 Feller Bob
1962 Robinson Jackie
1963 Campanella Roy
1963 Irvin Monte
1964 Reese Pee Wee
1964 Pesky Johnny
1965 Slaughter Enos
1965 Doby Larry
1966 Williams Ted
1966 Newcombe Don
1967 Hack Stan
1967 Suttles Mule
1968 Ashburn Richie
1968 Bresnahan Roger
1969 Musial Stan
1969 Berra Yogi
1970 Snider Duke
1970 Wynn Early
1971 Spahn Warren
1971 Minoso Minnie
1972 Roberts Robin
1972 Koufax Sandy
1972 Willis Vic
1973 Ford Whitey
1973 Richardson Hardy
1974 Mantle Mickey
1974 Mathews Eddie
1975 Drysdale Don
1975 McVey Cal
1976 Trouppe Quincy
1976 Faber Red
1976 McGinnity Joe
1977 Bunning Jim
1977 Banks Ernie
1978 Wilhelm Hoyt
1978 Clemente Roberto
1979 Mays Willie
1980 Kaline Al
1980 Marichal Juan
1980 Santo Ron
1981 Gibson Bob
1981 Killebrew Harmon
1982 Aaron Henry
1982 Robinson Frank
1983 Allen Dick
1983 Williams Billy
1984 Robinson Brooks
1984 Wynn Jimmy
1985 Freehan Bill
1985 Mackey Biz
1985 Cravath Gavvy
1986 McCovey Willie
1986 Sewell Joe
1987 Rixey Eppa
1987 Carey Max
1987 Grant Frank
1988 Stargell Willie
1988 Smith Reggie
1989 Perry Gaylord
1989 Bench Johnny
1989 Yastrzemski Carl
1990 Morgan Joe
1990 Palmer Jim
1990 Jenkins Fergie
1991 Carew Rod
1991 Campaneris Bert
1991 Herman Billy
1992 Seaver Tom
1992 Grich Bobby
1993 Carlton Steve
1993 Niekro Phil
1993 Jackson Reggie
1994 Sutton Don
1994 Simmons Ted
1994 Rose Pete
1995 Schmidt Mike
1995 Evans Darrell
1995 Nettles Graig
1996 Reuschel Rick
1996 Hernandez Keith
1996 Beckley Jake
1997 Evans Dwight
1997 Brown Willard
1997 Sisler George
1998 Blyleven Bert
1998 Carter Gary
1998 Monroe Bill
1999 Fisk Carlton
1999 Brett George
1999 Yount Robin
2000 Gossage Rich
2000 Ryan Nolan
2001 Whitaker Lou
2001 Winfield Dave
2001 Doerr Bobby
2002 Trammell Alan
2002 Smith Ozzie
2002 Dawson Andre
2003 Sandberg Ryne
2003 Murray Eddie
2003 Stieb Dave
2004 Eckersley Dennis
2004 Molitor Paul
2004 McCormick Jim
2005 Boggs Wade
2005 Saberhagen Bret
2005 Pike Lip
2006 Hershiser Orel
2006 Clark Will
2006 Kiner Ralph
2007 Ripken, Jr. Cal
2007 Gwynn Tony
2007 McGwire Mark
2008 Raines Tim
2008 Cone David
2008 Bell Buddy
2008 Boyer Ken
2009 Henderson Rickey
2009 Tiant Luis
2009 Pierce Billy
2010 Larkin Barry
2010 Alomar Roberto
2010 Martinez Edgar
2011 Brown Kevin
2011 Bagwell Jeff
2011 Walker Larry
Rk Name
1 Ruth, Babe
2 Williams, Ted
3 Wagner, Honus
4 Cobb, Ty
5 Mays, Willie
6 Johnson, Walter
7 Speaker, Tris
8 Gibson, Josh
9 Mantle, Mickey
10 Hornsby, Rogers
11 Young, Cy
12 Musial, Stan
13 Aaron, Henry
14 Alexander, Pete
15 Collins, Eddie
16 Lajoie, Nap
17 Schmidt, Mike
18 Gehrig, Lou
19 Grove, Lefty
20 Anson, Cap
21 Morgan, Joe
22 Henderson, Rickey
23 Charleston, Oscar
24 Seaver, Tom
25 Ott, Mel
26 Paige, Satchel
27 Lloyd, John Henry
28 Foxx, Jimmie
29 Robinson, Frank
30 Ripken, Jr., Cal
31 Mathewson, Christy
32 Bench, Johnny
33 Spahn, Warren
34 DiMaggio, Joe
35 Vaughan, Arky
36 Williams, Smokey Joe
37 Mathews, Eddie
38 Nichols, Kid
39 Conner, Roger
40 Mize, Johnny
41 Carlton, Steve
42 Feller, Bob
43 Boggs, Wade
44 Carter, Gary
45 Fisk, Carlton
46 Berra, Yogi
47 Brett, George
48 Brouthers, Dan
49 Gibson, Bob
50 Stearnes, Turkey
51 Roberts, Robin
52 Yount, Robin
53 Delahanty, Ed
54 Bagwell, Jeff
55 Niekro, Phil
56 Greenberg, Hank
57 Davis, George
58 Trammell, Alan
59 Kaline, Al
60 Dahlen, Bill
61 Gehringer, Charlie
62 Perry, Gaylord
63 Dihigo, Martin
64 Blyleven, Bert
65 Rogan, Bullet Joe
66 Appling, Luke
67 Yastrzemski, Carl
68 Robinson, Jackie
69 Dickey, Bill
70 Larkin, Barry
71 Plank, Eddie
72 Hamilton, Billy
73 Johnson, Grant
74 Waner, Paul
75 Carew, Rod
76 Ryan, Nolan
77 Jenkins, Fergie
78 Jackson, Reggie
79 Smith, Ozzie
80 Grich, Bobby
81 Crawford, Sam
82 Rusie, Amos
83 Wilson, Jud
84 Cochrane, Mickey
85 Jackson, Joe
86 Clemente, Roberto
87 Walsh, Ed
88 Banks, Ernie
89 Ewing, Buck
90 Raines, Tim
91 Wells, Willie
92 Hubbell, Carl
93 Frisch, Frankie
94 Ruffing, Red
95 Hartnett, Gabby
96 Torriente, Cristobal
97 Clarkson, John
98 Cronin, Joe
99 Reese, Pee Wee
100 Lyons, Ted
101 Drysdale, Don
102 Kelly, King
103 Clarke, Fred
104 Wright, George
105 White, Deacon
106 Rose, Pete
107 Heilmann, Harry
108 Burkett, Jesse
109 Gwynn, Tony
110 Santo, Ron
111 Glasscock, Jack
112 Hines, Paul
113 Radbourn, Charles
114 Snider, Duke
115 Baker, Frank
116 Boudreau, Lou
117 Brown, Kevin
118 Simmons, Al
119 McGwire, Mark
120 Spalding, Al
121 Newhouser, Hal
122 Eckersley, Dennis
123 Vance, Dazzy
124 Foster, Willie
125 Barnes, Ross
126 Allen, Dick
127 O'Rourke, Jim
128 Wallace, Bobby
129 Santop, Louis
130 Keefe, Tim
131 Whitaker, Lou
132 Walker, Larry
133 Flick, Elmer
134 Simmons, Ted
135 Gossage, Rich
136 Sutton, Don
137 Sandberg, Ryne
138 Campanella, Roy
139 McCovey, Willie
140 Jennings, Hughie
141 Ford, Whitey
142 Murray, Eddie
143 Wynn, Early
144 Irvin, Monte
145 Slaughter, Enos
146 Brown, Ray
147 Reuschel, Rick
148 Bunning, Jim
149 Ashburn, Richie
150 Leonard, Buck
151 Keeler, Willie
152 Marichal, Juan
153 Kelley, Joe
154 Evans, Dwight
155 Ward, John
156 McGraw, John
157 Keller, Charlie
158 Williams, Billy
159 Hill, Pete
160 Collins, Jimmy
161 Palmer, Jim
162 Bennett, Charlie
163 Koufax, Sandy
164 Doby, Larry
165 Saberhagen, Bret
166 Lundy, Dick
167 Sutton, Ezra
168 Evans, Darrell
169 Molitor, Paul
170 Robinson, Brooks
171 Gore, George
172 Pearce, Dickey
173 Groh, Heinie
174 Wilhelm, Hoyt
175 Alomar, Roberto
176 Ferrell, Wes
177 McPhee, Bid
178 Minoso, Minnie
179 Griffith, Clark
180 Gordon, Joe
181 Start, Joe
182 Rizzuto, Phil
183 Magee, Sherry
184 Cone, David
185 Palmeiro, Rafael - will be PHOM in 2012
186 Stargell, Willie
187 Coveleski, Stan
188 Winfield, Dave
189 Galvin, Pud
190 Méndez, José
191 Wynn, Jimmy
192 Goslin, Goose
193 Pesky, Johnny
194 Shocker, Urban
195 Waddell, Rube
196 Brown, Mordecai
197 Sheckard, Jimmy
198 Caruthers, Bob
199 Campaneris, Bert
200 Newcombe, Don
201 Beckwith, John
202 Clark, Will
203 Foster, Rube
204 Smith, Reggie
205 Martinez, Edgar
206 Wheat, Zack
207 Oms, Alejandro
208 Freehan, Bill
209 Killebrew, Harmon
210 Nettles, Graig
211 Hack, Stan
212 Suttles, Mule
213 Williamson, Ed
214 Smith, Hilton
215 Dawson, Andre
216 Bresnahan, Roger
217 Willis, Vic
218 Richardson, Hardy
219 McVey, Cal
220 Faber, Red
221 Hernandez, Keith
222 Trouppe, Quincy
223 McGinnity, Joe
224 Cravath, Gavvy
225 Mackey, Biz
226 Sewell, Joe
227 Grant, Frank
228 Rixey, Eppa
229 Carey, Max
230 Herman, Billy
231 Beckley, Jake
232 Brown, Willard
233 Sisler, George
234 Monroe, Bill
235 Doerr, Bobby
236 Stieb, Dave
237 McCormick, Jim
238 Pike, Lip
239 Hershiser, Orel
240 Kiner, Ralph
241 Boyer, Ken
242 Bell, Buddy
243 Pierce, Billy
244 Tiant, Luis
And I wouldn't let idiocies like the 1946 Old Timers Committee (the 1945 Committee being only slightly less idiotic) expand the numbers in my PHOF. Just looking at the (very sensible) list in #93 I suspect my PHOF would only get up to around 180 or so (not necessarily his top 180). Not precisely a small hall but certainly smaller than many.
I would be glad to post a PHOM at the Hallofmerit.com site and thanks for the interest.
215. Chris Cobb Posted: December 12, 2012 at 02:12 AM (#4322673)
A few days back, Bleed the Freak asked about how my PHOM differs from the HOM. I don't have a PHoM fully mapped out, and in a number of cases I am quite willing to conclude that the electorate's collective judgment is more reliable than my own, so I'm not very committed to tracking a personal hall of merit. Still, if I look at the rankings from which I build my ballot, I can identify the places where my conclusions most likely differ from the results of our elections. So, here's where I differ, divided into two groups: strong differences and weak differences. With strong differences, I think that the electorate has likely made a mistake. With weak differences, I think that the electorate's choice is pretty much as defensible as my own, but that slight preferences for peak vs. career probably tip the scale.
Not PHOM
Strong Difference - Pete Browning, Sam Thompson, Edd Roush, Bill Terry, Nellie Fox, Rollie Fingers (I may have supported Roush and Fingers when they were elected, but not the others)
Weak Difference - Monte Ward, Mordecai Brown, Dobie Moore, Earl Averill, Joe Medwick, Cool Papa Bell, Bob Lemon, Bill Freehan (Some of these I once supported, some I didn't. I tend to run slightly below HoM on catchers--I don't follow the electorate's lead on Freehan because it looks like two near contemporaries--Tenace and Munson--would probably be better choices, even though all fall a bit below my own in-out line)
PHOM
Strong Difference -- Buddy Bell, Gavvy Cravath, Bobby Bonds
Weak Difference -- Kevin Appier, Luis Tiant, Bert Campaneris, Ben Taylor, Chuck Finley, Fred Dunlap, Urban Shocker, Phil Rizzuto, Robin Ventura, Ted Breitenstein, Vic Willis
149. Michael J. Binkley's anxiety closet Posted: December 03, 2012 at 12:28 AM (#4314911)
Second year voter. At heart, I am a peak voter, but I do recognize the value of a pure career candidate. I revised my system this year to a DanR-style salary estimator, but instead of using just his WARP, I use a combination of uber-stat systems (DanR, B-R, FG, SH WAR and WSaB, Chone, Davenport and new BP).
I am fairly liberal in giving credit (war, blacklist, MiL), but try to be conservative in the amount of credit I give. I do not boycott for any reason.
I am still in the process of back-filling my PHoM (I am through 1974), but have evaluated all borderline HoMer’s in my system, so I know what my PHoM would look like, just not by year yet.
HoM not PHoM: Nellie Fox, Edd Roush, Bob Lemon, Max Carey, Bill Terry, Eppa Rixey, Stan Hack, Cool Papa Bell, Hardy Richardson, Joe Medwick, Ralph Kiner, Charlie Bennett, Biz Mackey, Dave Stieb, Rollie Fingers, Will Clark, Willie Randolph, Bret Saberhagen, Red Faber.
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