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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Thursday, February 16, 2023Reranking Center Fielders BallotRank the 31 center fielders in the Hall of Merit Richie Ashburn |
BookmarksYou must be logged in to view your Bookmarks. Hot Topics2024 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion
(119 - 6:57pm, Jun 09) Last: Jaack Reranking Shortstops: Results (3 - 2:29pm, Jun 09) Last: Bleed the Freak Reranking Shortstops Ballot (21 - 5:02pm, Jun 07) Last: DL from MN Reranking First Basemen: Discussion Thread (42 - 2:05pm, Jun 07) Last: Michael J. Binkley's anxiety closet Reranking Shortstops: Discussion Thread (69 - 11:52pm, Jun 06) Last: Guapo Cal Ripken, Jr. (15 - 12:42am, May 18) Last: The Honorable Ardo New Eligibles Year by Year (996 - 12:23pm, May 12) Last: cookiedabookie Reranking Centerfielders: Results (20 - 10:31am, Apr 28) Last: cookiedabookie Reranking Center Fielders Ballot (20 - 9:30am, Apr 06) Last: DL from MN Ranking Center Fielders in the Hall of Merit - Discussion Thread (77 - 5:45pm, Apr 05) Last: Esteban Rivera Reranking Right Fielders: Results (34 - 2:55am, Mar 30) Last: bjhanke 2023 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion (376 - 10:42am, Mar 07) Last: Dr. Chaleeko Reranking Right Fielders: Ballot (21 - 5:20pm, Mar 01) Last: DL from MN Ranking Right Fielders in the Hall of Merit - Discussion thread (71 - 9:47pm, Feb 28) Last: Guapo Dobie Moore (239 - 10:40am, Feb 11) Last: Mike Webber |
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1. DL from MN Posted: March 19, 2023 at 10:02 PM (#6120769)2. Ty Cobb
3. Tris Speaker
4. Mickey Mantle
5. Oscar Charleston
6. Joe DiMaggio
7. Ken Griffey Jr.
8. Turkey Stearnes
9. Duke Snider
10. Cristobal Torriente
11. Billy Hamilton
12. Carlos Beltran
13. Pete Hill
14. Kenny Lofton
15. Richie Ashburn
16. Andruw Jones
17. Paul Hines
18. Jim Edmonds
19. Andre Dawson
20. Lary Doby
21. Jimmy Wynn
22. Jim O'Rourke
23. Earl Averill
24. Willard Brown
25. Max Carey
26. Alejandro Oms
27. George Gore
28. Pete Browning
29. Lip Pike
30. Cool Papa Bell
31. Edd Roush
2. Ty Cobb
3. Mickey Mantle
4. Tris Speaker
5. Oscar Charleston - 110.6 / 71.5
6. Joe DiMaggio - WWII
-Mike Trout-
7. Ken Griffey Jr.
8. Turkey Stearnes - 89.4 / 58.7 - under consideration for 7th.
9. Cristobal Torriente - 76.0 / 48.4
10. Billy Hamilton
11. Carlos Beltran
12. Jim Edmonds
13. Duke Snider - dropped from #10, further research on him, had large home/road splits and was bad against lefties, this group is tight enough to drop him 3 places.
14. Larry Doby - 74.4 / 49.2 - not seeing much gap in this group - WWII
15. Paul Hines
16. Jim O'Rourke - up one, his career value is so strong if you adjust for season length.
17. Pete Hill - 72.5 / 32.2
18. Andruw Jones
19. Andre Dawson
20. Willard Brown - 74.4 / 30.7 - down one, showing a little conservatism in MLEs.
21. Jim Wynn
22. Max Carey - WWI, a beast on defensive and the basepaths that raw B-R WAR and possibly others is missing.
Borderline In:
23. Kenny Lofton
-Cesar Cedeno-
-Willie Davis-
24. Alejandro Oms - 65.9 / 29.8
-Tommy Leach- - if he's at CF.
Borderline Out:
-Bernie Williams-
-Dale Murphy-
25. Earl Averill - PCL, home/road splits keep him on the outside looking in.
-Andrew McCutchen-
-Tetelo Vargas- 69.3 / 33.3
Close But No Cigar:
26. George Gore
-Lazaro Salazar- 60.8 / 30.5
27. Richie Ashburn
28. Pete Browning
29. Lip Pike - pre-NA
30. Cool Papa Bell - 57.4 / 21.6
A swath of guys ahead of the bottom, not in particular order:
Jesse Barfield, Wally Berger, Ellis Burks, Mike Cameron, Johnny Damon, Eric Davis, Hugh Duffy, Lenny Dykstra, Kirk Gibson, Curtis Granderson, Mike Griffin, Sam Jethroe, Chet Lemon, Fred Lynn, Carlos Moran, Amos Otis, Vada Pinson, Kirby Puckett, Cy Seymour, Andy Van Slyke, Hack Wilson, Wild Bill Wright
31. Edd Roush - even with holdout credit, WWI, and considering Greasy Neale may have impacted his defensive numbers, major blemish on the HOM record.
2. WILLIE MAYS
3. TRIS SPEAKER
4. OSCAR CHARLESTON
5. MICKEY MANTLE
6. JOE DIMAGGIO
7. KEN GRIFFEY JR.
8. TURKEY STEARNES
9. JIM O'ROURKE
10. BILLY HAMILTON
11. PAUL HINES
12. CRISTOBAL TORRIENTE
13. CARLOS BELTRAN
14. DUKE SNIDER
15. LARRY DOBY
16. JIM EDMONDS
17. GEORGE GORE
18. KENNY LOFTON
19. PETE HILL
20. ANDRUW JONES
21. EDD ROUSH
22. COOL PAPA BELL
23. PETE BROWNING
24. EARL AVERILL
25. JIMMY WYNN
26. RICHIE ASHBURN
27. ALEJANDRO OMS
28. ANDRE DAWSON
29. MAX CAREY
30. LIP PIKE
31. WILLARD BROWN
(note: the spaces do not indicate "tiers." rather, for some reason double-spaces arrived as a I batted around the names of the 5 newcomers....)
2. Ty Cobb
3. Tris Speaker
4. Mickey Mantle
5. Joe DiMaggio
6. Oscar Charleston - He doesn't actually move up any rungs of the ladder, but this is a pretty substantial jump for me. He's very close to Mantle and DiMaggio.
-- Mike Trout
7. Turkey Stearnes - Jumps Griffey with new MLEs
8. Ken Griffey Jr.
9. Billy Hamilton
10. Duke Snider
11. Cristobal Torriente
12. Jim Edmonds
13. Larry Doby - It's not so much the new MLEs here, but just re-doing how I accounted for his pre-AL play. He's neck and neck with Beltran, but I'm giving him the tie.
14. Carlos Beltran
15. Paul Hines - Re-evaluation of the pre-1893 guys moves him up a fair amount. He looks to have the strongest peak of the group.
16. Jimmy Wynn
17. Andruw Jones - This feels too high to me, but as I've shuffled things around I'm finding it harder and harder to have him much lower.
18. Pete Hill - New MLEs don't reflect great, but he's still a clear HoMer
19. Kenny Lofton
20. Max Carey
21. Richie Ashburn
22. George Gore - Just a worse version of Hines. An acceptable choice.
23. Earl Averill
24. Alejandro Oms
25. Andre Dawson - Kind of the opposite of Andruw Jones - this feels a little low, but I'm finding it hard to place anyone else below him.
26. Jim O'Rourke - He's not a bad choice, but I think I diagree with the sentiment that his lenghty career makes him a stronger choice than Hines or Gore. I've been using a little higher replacement level for this era, which hurts him relatively more than Gore or Hines.
-- Willie Davis
27. Willard Brown
-- Dom DiMaggio
28. Pete Browning
-- <Nine Players>
29. Cool Papa Bell
-- <Four Players>
30. Lip Pike
-- <Six Players>
31. Edd Roush
2) Willie Mays - Cobb has 10 more wins above positional average
3) Tris Speaker
4) Mickey Mantle
5) Joe DiMaggio
6) Oscar Charleston
7) Turkey Stearnes
8) Jim O'Rourke - very good career candidate
9) Billy Hamilton
10) Ken Griffey Jr
11) Cristobal Torriente
12) Pete Hill
13) Paul Hines
14) Duke Snider
15) Carlos Beltran
16) Jim Edmonds
17) Willard Brown - had him pegged as a minus Andre Dawson, I like his bat a lot more looking through the latest MLEs.
18) Max Carey - great glove, great baserunning
19) Larry Doby
20) Richie Ashburn
21) Alejandro Oms
22) Earl Averill
23) Kenny Lofton
24) George Gore
- in/out line -
-- Tommy Leach
25) Andre Dawson
26) Jim Wynn
27) Cool Papa Bell
-- Dom DiMaggio
28) Pete Browning
29) Andruw Jones - I agree with Ashburn minus
30) Edd Roush
31) Lip Pike
2. Ty Cobb
3. Tris Speaker
4. Mickey Mantle
5. Joe DiMaggio
6. Oscar Charleston
7. Ken Griffey Jr.
8. Turkey Stearnes
9. Duke Snider
10. Andruw Jones
11. Billy Hamilton
12. Carlos Beltran
13. Kenny Lofton
14. Jim Edmonds
15. Cristobal Torriente
16. Pete Hill
17. Andre Dawson
18. Richie Ashburn
19. Jimmy Wynn
20. Lary Doby
21. Willard Brown
22. Earl Averill
23. Max Carey
24. Paul Hines
25. Jim O'Rourke
26. George Gore
27. Alejandro Oms
28. Pete Browning
29. Cool Papa Bell
30. Edd Roush
31. Lip Pike
2. Ty Cobb
3. Tris Speaker
4. Mickey Mantle
5. Oscar Charleston
6. Joe Dimaggio
7. Ken Griffey Jr
8. Turkey Stearnes
9. Duke Snider
10. Cristobal Torriente
11. Carlos Beltran
12. Pete Hill
13. Larry Doby
14. Willard Brown
15. Andruw Jones
16. Jim Edmonds
17. Andre Dawson
18. Kenny Lofton
19. Billy Hamilton
20. Richie Ashburn
21. Jim O’Rourke
22. Alejandro Ohms
23. Paul Hines
24. Max Carey
25. Jim Wynn
26. Cool Papa Bell
27. Earl Averill
28. George Gore
29. Ed Roush
30. Pete Browning
31. Lip Pike
2. Ty Cobb
3. Tris Speaker
4. Mickey Mantle
5. Joe DiMaggio
---Mike Trout to date---
6. Oscar Charleston
7. Turkey Stearns
8. Ken Griffey Jr.
9. Willard Brown
10. Jim Edmonds
11. Cristóbal Torriente
12. Andruw Jones
13. Pete Hill
14. Billy Hamilton
15. Carlos Beltran
16. Duke Snider
17. Kenny Lofton
18. Larry Doby
19. Jim Wynn
20. Andre Dawson
21. Paul Hines
22. Alejandro Oms
---Willie Davis, PHOM---
23. Jim O'Rourke
24. Max Carey
---In/Out line---
25. Richie Ashburn
26. Earl Averill
27. Pete Browning
28. George Gore
29. Edd Roush
30. Cool Papa Bell
31. Lip Pike
2. Ty Cobb
3. Mickey Mantle
4. Tris Speaker
5. Oscar Charleston
6. Joe DiMaggio
7. Ken Griffey Jr.
8. Turkey Stearnes
9. Cristobal Torriente
10. Billy Hamilton
11. Jim O'Rourke
12. Carlos Beltran
13. Duke Snider
14. Pete Hill
15. Paul Hines
16. Andruw Jones
17. Jim Edmonds
18. Andre Dawson
19. Larry Doby
20. Kenny Lofton
21. Richie Ashburn
22. Willard Brown
23. Max Carey
24. George Gore
25. Jimmy Wynn
26. Alejandro Oms
27. Earl Averill
28. Lip Pike
29. Pete Browning
30. Edd Roush
31. Cool Papa Bell
2. Ty Cobb
3. Tris Speaker
4. Mickey Mantle
5. Oscar Charleston
6. Joe DiMaggio
7. Turkey Stearnes
8. Ken Griffey Jr.
9. Cristobal Torriente
10. Billy Hamilton
11. Larry Doby
12. Duke Snider
13. Andruw Jones
14. Carlos Beltran
15. Kenny Lofton
16. Jim Edmonds
17. Richie Ashburn
18. Paul Hines
19. Andre Dawson
20. Willard Brown
21. Jimmy Wynn
22. Pete Hill
23. Jim O'Rourke
24. Alejandro Oms
25. George Gore
26. Earl Averill
----------------------
27. Pete Browning
28. Max Carey
29. Cool Papa Bell
30. Edd Roush
31. Lip Pike
1. Willie Mays (441.81) - #5 player all-time
2. Ty Cobb (362.59) - #7 player all-time
3. Mickey Mantle (335.24) - #10 player all-time
4. Tris Speaker (303.94) - #14 player all-time
(Mike Trout - 264.84)
5. Oscar Charleston (240.76)
6. Joe DiMaggio (222.28)
7. Ken Griffey Jr (160.52)
8. Turkey Stearnes (154.06)
9. Cristobal Torriente (145.33)
10. Billy Hamilton (134.78)
11. Larry Doby (131.11)
12. Jim Edmonds (125.33)
13. Willard Brown (116.89)
14. Duke Snider (111.80)
15. Carlos Beltran (111.18)
16. Pete Browning (108.99)
17. Paul Hines (105.71)
18. Jimmy Wynn (100.61)
19. Andre Dawson (100.50)
20. Andruw Jones (100.44)
21. Pete Hill (98.23)
22. Kenny Lofton (88.77)
(Chet Lemon - 82.80)
(Cesar Cedeno - 82.73)
23. Richie Ashburn (82.57)
24. Jim O'Rourke (81.13)
(Bernie Williams - 80.84)
25. George Gore (80.60)
26. Lip Pike (80.05)
(PHoM line)
27. Alejandro Oms (66.12)
28. Earl Averill (60.75)
29. Max Carey (60.72)
30. Edd Roush (47.26)
31. Cool Papa Bell (43.61)
My CF rankings this go around:
1. Willie Mays
2. Ty Cobb
3. Tris Speaker
4. Mickey Mantle
5. Joe DiMaggio
6. Oscar Charleston
7. Ken Griffey Jr.
8. Turkey Stearnes
9. Billy Hamilton
10. Cristobal Torriente
11. Carlos Beltran
12. Duke Snider
13. Jim O’Rourke
14. Pete Hill
15. Paul Hines
16. Jim Edmonds
17. Larry Doby
18. Andre Dawson
19. George Gore
20. Max Carey
21. Richie Ashburn
22. Andruw Jones
23. Earl Averill
24. Alejandro Oms
25. Kenny Lofton
26. Cool Papa Bell
27. Pete Browning
28. Willard Brown
29. Jimmy Wynn
30. Edd Roush
31. Lip Pike
1. Willie Mays
2. Ty Cobb
3. Tris Speaker
4. Oscar Charleston
5. Mickey Mantle
6. Joe DiMaggio
7. Turkey Stearnes
8. Ken Griffey Jr.
9. Cristobal Torriente
10. Pete Hill
11. Larry Doby
12. Cool Papa Bell
13. Willard Brown
14. Carlos Beltran
15. Andre Dawson
16. Kenny Lofton
17. Billy Hamilton
18. Andruw Jones
19. Duke Snider
20. Jim Edmonds
21. Richie Ashburn
22. Jim O'Rourke
23. Jim Wynn
24. Max Carey
25. Earl Averill
26. Paul Hines
27. Edd Roush
28. Pete Browning
29. George Gore
30. Lip Pike
31. Alejandro Oms
Not being able to post in HOM threads is very annoying and presumably has contributed to the decline in participating/ballots.
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