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— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Thursday, February 16, 2023

Reranking Center Fielders Ballot

Rank the 31 center fielders in the Hall of Merit

Richie Ashburn
Earl Averill
Cool Papa Bell
Carlos Beltran
Willard Brown
Pete Browning
Max Carey
Oscar Charleston
Ty Cobb
Andre Dawson
Joe DiMaggio
Larry Doby
Jim Edmonds
George Gore
Ken Griffey Jr
Billy Hamilton
Pete Hill
Paul Hines
Andruw Jones
Kenny Lofton
Mickey Mantle
Willie Mays
Alejandro Oms
Jim O’Rourke
Lip Pike
Edd Roush
Duke Snider
Tris Speaker
Turkey Stearnes
Cristobal Torriente
Jim Wynn

DL from MN Posted: February 16, 2023 at 11:07 AM | 20 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. DL from MN Posted: March 19, 2023 at 10:02 PM (#6120769)
Ballot thread is up
   2. Rob_Wood Posted: March 19, 2023 at 10:41 PM (#6120772)
1. Willie Mays
2. Ty Cobb
3. Tris Speaker
4. Mickey Mantle
5. Oscar Charleston
6. Joe DiMaggio
7. Ken Griffey Jr.
8. Turkey Stearnes
9. Duke Snider
10. Cristobal Torriente
11. Billy Hamilton
12. Carlos Beltran
13. Pete Hill
14. Kenny Lofton
15. Richie Ashburn
16. Andruw Jones
17. Paul Hines
18. Jim Edmonds
19. Andre Dawson
20. Lary Doby
21. Jimmy Wynn
22. Jim O'Rourke
23. Earl Averill
24. Willard Brown
25. Max Carey
26. Alejandro Oms
27. George Gore
28. Pete Browning
29. Lip Pike
30. Cool Papa Bell
31. Edd Roush
   3. Bleed the Freak Posted: March 20, 2023 at 06:02 PM (#6120845)
1. Willie Mays
2. Ty Cobb

3. Mickey Mantle
4. Tris Speaker

5. Oscar Charleston - 110.6 / 71.5
6. Joe DiMaggio - WWII
-Mike Trout-

7. Ken Griffey Jr.
8. Turkey Stearnes - 89.4 / 58.7 - under consideration for 7th.

9. Cristobal Torriente - 76.0 / 48.4
10. Billy Hamilton
11. Carlos Beltran
12. Jim Edmonds
13. Duke Snider - dropped from #10, further research on him, had large home/road splits and was bad against lefties, this group is tight enough to drop him 3 places.
14. Larry Doby - 74.4 / 49.2 - not seeing much gap in this group - WWII

15. Paul Hines
16. Jim O'Rourke - up one, his career value is so strong if you adjust for season length.
17. Pete Hill - 72.5 / 32.2
18. Andruw Jones

19. Andre Dawson
20. Willard Brown - 74.4 / 30.7 - down one, showing a little conservatism in MLEs.
21. Jim Wynn
22. Max Carey - WWI, a beast on defensive and the basepaths that raw B-R WAR and possibly others is missing.

Borderline In:
23. Kenny Lofton
-Cesar Cedeno-
-Willie Davis-
24. Alejandro Oms - 65.9 / 29.8
-Tommy Leach- - if he's at CF.

Borderline Out:
-Bernie Williams-
-Dale Murphy-
25. Earl Averill - PCL, home/road splits keep him on the outside looking in.
-Andrew McCutchen-
-Tetelo Vargas- 69.3 / 33.3


Close But No Cigar:
26. George Gore
-Lazaro Salazar- 60.8 / 30.5
27. Richie Ashburn
28. Pete Browning
29. Lip Pike - pre-NA
30. Cool Papa Bell - 57.4 / 21.6

A swath of guys ahead of the bottom, not in particular order:
Jesse Barfield, Wally Berger, Ellis Burks, Mike Cameron, Johnny Damon, Eric Davis, Hugh Duffy, Lenny Dykstra, Kirk Gibson, Curtis Granderson, Mike Griffin, Sam Jethroe, Chet Lemon, Fred Lynn, Carlos Moran, Amos Otis, Vada Pinson, Kirby Puckett, Cy Seymour, Andy Van Slyke, Hack Wilson, Wild Bill Wright

31. Edd Roush - even with holdout credit, WWI, and considering Greasy Neale may have impacted his defensive numbers, major blemish on the HOM record.
   4. Howie Menckel Posted: March 20, 2023 at 09:27 PM (#6120860)
1. TY COBB
2. WILLIE MAYS
3. TRIS SPEAKER
4. OSCAR CHARLESTON
5. MICKEY MANTLE
6. JOE DIMAGGIO

7. KEN GRIFFEY JR.
8. TURKEY STEARNES
9. JIM O'ROURKE
10. BILLY HAMILTON
11. PAUL HINES
12. CRISTOBAL TORRIENTE

13. CARLOS BELTRAN
14. DUKE SNIDER
15. LARRY DOBY

16. JIM EDMONDS
17. GEORGE GORE

18. KENNY LOFTON
19. PETE HILL

20. ANDRUW JONES
21. EDD ROUSH
22. COOL PAPA BELL
23. PETE BROWNING
24. EARL AVERILL
25. JIMMY WYNN
26. RICHIE ASHBURN
27. ALEJANDRO OMS
28. ANDRE DAWSON
29. MAX CAREY
30. LIP PIKE
31. WILLARD BROWN

(note: the spaces do not indicate "tiers." rather, for some reason double-spaces arrived as a I batted around the names of the 5 newcomers....)
   5. Jaack Posted: March 20, 2023 at 09:59 PM (#6120866)
1. Willie Mays
2. Ty Cobb
3. Tris Speaker
4. Mickey Mantle
5. Joe DiMaggio
6. Oscar Charleston - He doesn't actually move up any rungs of the ladder, but this is a pretty substantial jump for me. He's very close to Mantle and DiMaggio.
-- Mike Trout
7. Turkey Stearnes - Jumps Griffey with new MLEs
8. Ken Griffey Jr.
9. Billy Hamilton
10. Duke Snider
11. Cristobal Torriente
12. Jim Edmonds
13. Larry Doby - It's not so much the new MLEs here, but just re-doing how I accounted for his pre-AL play. He's neck and neck with Beltran, but I'm giving him the tie.
14. Carlos Beltran
15. Paul Hines - Re-evaluation of the pre-1893 guys moves him up a fair amount. He looks to have the strongest peak of the group.
16. Jimmy Wynn
17. Andruw Jones - This feels too high to me, but as I've shuffled things around I'm finding it harder and harder to have him much lower.
18. Pete Hill - New MLEs don't reflect great, but he's still a clear HoMer
19. Kenny Lofton
20. Max Carey
21. Richie Ashburn
22. George Gore - Just a worse version of Hines. An acceptable choice.
23. Earl Averill
24. Alejandro Oms
25. Andre Dawson - Kind of the opposite of Andruw Jones - this feels a little low, but I'm finding it hard to place anyone else below him.
26. Jim O'Rourke - He's not a bad choice, but I think I diagree with the sentiment that his lenghty career makes him a stronger choice than Hines or Gore. I've been using a little higher replacement level for this era, which hurts him relatively more than Gore or Hines.
-- Willie Davis
27. Willard Brown
-- Dom DiMaggio
28. Pete Browning
-- <Nine Players>
29. Cool Papa Bell
-- <Four Players>
30. Lip Pike
-- <Six Players>
31. Edd Roush
   6. DL from MN Posted: March 21, 2023 at 09:26 AM (#6120919)
1) Ty Cobb
2) Willie Mays - Cobb has 10 more wins above positional average
3) Tris Speaker
4) Mickey Mantle
5) Joe DiMaggio
6) Oscar Charleston
7) Turkey Stearnes
8) Jim O'Rourke - very good career candidate
9) Billy Hamilton
10) Ken Griffey Jr
11) Cristobal Torriente
12) Pete Hill
13) Paul Hines
14) Duke Snider
15) Carlos Beltran
16) Jim Edmonds
17) Willard Brown - had him pegged as a minus Andre Dawson, I like his bat a lot more looking through the latest MLEs.
18) Max Carey - great glove, great baserunning
19) Larry Doby
20) Richie Ashburn
21) Alejandro Oms
22) Earl Averill
23) Kenny Lofton
24) George Gore
- in/out line -
-- Tommy Leach
25) Andre Dawson
26) Jim Wynn
27) Cool Papa Bell
-- Dom DiMaggio
28) Pete Browning
29) Andruw Jones - I agree with Ashburn minus
30) Edd Roush
31) Lip Pike
   7. kcgard2 Posted: March 21, 2023 at 05:15 PM (#6120964)
1. Willie Mays
2. Ty Cobb
3. Tris Speaker
4. Mickey Mantle
5. Joe DiMaggio
6. Oscar Charleston
7. Ken Griffey Jr.
8. Turkey Stearnes
9. Duke Snider
10. Andruw Jones
11. Billy Hamilton
12. Carlos Beltran
13. Kenny Lofton
14. Jim Edmonds
15. Cristobal Torriente
16. Pete Hill
17. Andre Dawson
18. Richie Ashburn
19. Jimmy Wynn
20. Lary Doby
21. Willard Brown
22. Earl Averill
23. Max Carey
24. Paul Hines
25. Jim O'Rourke
26. George Gore
27. Alejandro Oms
28. Pete Browning
29. Cool Papa Bell
30. Edd Roush
31. Lip Pike
   8. Alex02 Posted: March 22, 2023 at 01:02 PM (#6121070)
1. Willie Mays
2. Ty Cobb
3. Tris Speaker
4. Mickey Mantle
5. Oscar Charleston
6. Joe Dimaggio
7. Ken Griffey Jr
8. Turkey Stearnes
9. Duke Snider
10. Cristobal Torriente
11. Carlos Beltran
12. Pete Hill
13. Larry Doby
14. Willard Brown
15. Andruw Jones
16. Jim Edmonds
17. Andre Dawson
18. Kenny Lofton
19. Billy Hamilton
20. Richie Ashburn
21. Jim O’Rourke
22. Alejandro Ohms
23. Paul Hines
24. Max Carey
25. Jim Wynn
26. Cool Papa Bell
27. Earl Averill
28. George Gore
29. Ed Roush
30. Pete Browning
31. Lip Pike
   9. cookiedabookie Posted: March 22, 2023 at 01:12 PM (#6121071)
1. Willie Mays
2. Ty Cobb
3. Tris Speaker
4. Mickey Mantle
5. Joe DiMaggio

---Mike Trout to date---

6. Oscar Charleston
7. Turkey Stearns
8. Ken Griffey Jr.
9. Willard Brown
10. Jim Edmonds
11. Cristóbal Torriente
12. Andruw Jones
13. Pete Hill
14. Billy Hamilton
15. Carlos Beltran
16. Duke Snider
17. Kenny Lofton
18. Larry Doby
19. Jim Wynn
20. Andre Dawson
21. Paul Hines
22. Alejandro Oms

---Willie Davis, PHOM---

23. Jim O'Rourke
24. Max Carey

---In/Out line---

25. Richie Ashburn
26. Earl Averill
27. Pete Browning
28. George Gore
29. Edd Roush
30. Cool Papa Bell
31. Lip Pike
   10. DL from MN Posted: March 24, 2023 at 01:35 PM (#6121273)
Election will end April 5 at 16:00 EDT
   11. Chris Cobb Posted: March 31, 2023 at 11:07 PM (#6122108)
1. Willie Mays
2. Ty Cobb
3. Mickey Mantle
4. Tris Speaker
5. Oscar Charleston
6. Joe DiMaggio
7. Ken Griffey Jr.
8. Turkey Stearnes
9. Cristobal Torriente
10. Billy Hamilton
11. Jim O'Rourke
12. Carlos Beltran
13. Duke Snider
14. Pete Hill
15. Paul Hines
16. Andruw Jones
17. Jim Edmonds
18. Andre Dawson
19. Larry Doby
20. Kenny Lofton
21. Richie Ashburn
22. Willard Brown
23. Max Carey
24. George Gore
25. Jimmy Wynn
26. Alejandro Oms
27. Earl Averill
28. Lip Pike
29. Pete Browning
30. Edd Roush
31. Cool Papa Bell
   12. Tiboreau Posted: April 04, 2023 at 01:26 AM (#6122542)
1. Willie Mays
2. Ty Cobb
3. Tris Speaker
4. Mickey Mantle
5. Oscar Charleston
6. Joe DiMaggio
7. Turkey Stearnes
8. Ken Griffey Jr.
9. Cristobal Torriente
10. Billy Hamilton
11. Larry Doby
12. Duke Snider
13. Andruw Jones
14. Carlos Beltran
15. Kenny Lofton
16. Jim Edmonds
17. Richie Ashburn
18. Paul Hines
19. Andre Dawson
20. Willard Brown
21. Jimmy Wynn
22. Pete Hill
23. Jim O'Rourke
24. Alejandro Oms
25. George Gore
26. Earl Averill
----------------------
27. Pete Browning
28. Max Carey
29. Cool Papa Bell
30. Edd Roush
31. Lip Pike
   13. DL from MN Posted: April 05, 2023 at 01:01 PM (#6122697)
Last day to vote
   14. Michael J. Binkley's anxiety closet Posted: April 05, 2023 at 02:19 PM (#6122706)
HoM CF Rankings

1. Willie Mays (441.81) - #5 player all-time
2. Ty Cobb (362.59) - #7 player all-time
3. Mickey Mantle (335.24) - #10 player all-time
4. Tris Speaker (303.94) - #14 player all-time
(Mike Trout - 264.84)
5. Oscar Charleston (240.76)
6. Joe DiMaggio (222.28)
7. Ken Griffey Jr (160.52)
8. Turkey Stearnes (154.06)
9. Cristobal Torriente (145.33)
10. Billy Hamilton (134.78)
11. Larry Doby (131.11)
12. Jim Edmonds (125.33)
13. Willard Brown (116.89)
14. Duke Snider (111.80)
15. Carlos Beltran (111.18)
16. Pete Browning (108.99)
17. Paul Hines (105.71)
18. Jimmy Wynn (100.61)
19. Andre Dawson (100.50)
20. Andruw Jones (100.44)
21. Pete Hill (98.23)
22. Kenny Lofton (88.77)
(Chet Lemon - 82.80)
(Cesar Cedeno - 82.73)
23. Richie Ashburn (82.57)
24. Jim O'Rourke (81.13)
(Bernie Williams - 80.84)
25. George Gore (80.60)
26. Lip Pike (80.05)
(PHoM line)
27. Alejandro Oms (66.12)
28. Earl Averill (60.75)
29. Max Carey (60.72)
30. Edd Roush (47.26)
31. Cool Papa Bell (43.61)
   15. Esteban Rivera Posted: April 05, 2023 at 06:10 PM (#6122758)
I was able to finally a text box to post this, hopefully it’s good to go.

My CF rankings this go around:
1. Willie Mays
2. Ty Cobb
3. Tris Speaker
4. Mickey Mantle
5. Joe DiMaggio
6. Oscar Charleston
7. Ken Griffey Jr.
8. Turkey Stearnes
9. Billy Hamilton
10. Cristobal Torriente
11. Carlos Beltran
12. Duke Snider
13. Jim O’Rourke
14. Pete Hill
15. Paul Hines
16. Jim Edmonds
17. Larry Doby
18. Andre Dawson
19. George Gore
20. Max Carey
21. Richie Ashburn
22. Andruw Jones
23. Earl Averill
24. Alejandro Oms
25. Kenny Lofton
26. Cool Papa Bell
27. Pete Browning
28. Willard Brown
29. Jimmy Wynn
30. Edd Roush
31. Lip Pike
   16. DL from MN Posted: April 05, 2023 at 07:08 PM (#6122771)
taxandbeerguy Posted: March 05, 2023 at 02:24 PM (#6119560)
Life's been nuts the last couple weeks, but with a little consultation from the new MLE's and my prevailing thoughts, here's the list.

1. Mays - His maintenance as the best player on the planet from 1954-1966 (with a couple Mantle years a Koufax year, maybe an Aaron or Williams year) is incredible and gets him the top spot.
2. Cobb - Peak is massive, had he stayed fully healthy through 1910-1914, he's missing more than half a season in there, that may have been enough to capture the top spot, it's that close with Mays.
3. Speaker - the defense might be undersold in bWAR, but that's a hell of a gap to make up to Cobb on offense.
4. Mantle - Best peak (i.e. 1956) with maybe say Charleston's (1921 or 1924) but Mays, Cobb and Speaker have so many years that a like a tiny step behind that, that a tiny absolute peak advantage can't overcome in prime and never mind career.
5. Charleston - Seems very similar to Mantle in terms of peak and earlier decline, Charleston has a longer tail and maybe the D and especially baserunning were better than Mantle (although Mantle is no slouch when young). Doesn't have a monster 30's that Mays and Speaker had and Cobb's wasn't far off-he just missed a little more time than his 20's.
(Trout - he's got some more prime years to go before he can catch Charleston)
6. DiMaggio - WW2 credit
7. Stearnes - Spitballing it - a 145 OPS+ hitter playing a good CF for close to two decades. Likely move to the corners as he aged out and never brilliant fielder, but very solid. Wouldn't look out of place as a Top 5 on many other positions lists, CF is very deep at the top. Inner circle ends here for me.
8. Griffey - nothing really to say other than my favorite player growing up.
9. Torriente - Near inner-circle, not quite high enough peak / long enough career.
10. Hamilton - Absolute menace in the 1890's. Would love to have a time machine to see him and Harry Stovey play.
11. Beltran - To me has just enough D, baserunning and post season heroics to move him above the crowd. 11-23 is quite tight as a bunch of guys who would be fighting really hard to stay on the list if the HOM was cut in half.
12. O'Rourke - the career is incredible for 19th century.
13. Hines - Ditto, the lengthening schedule amplifies his declining (30+) years
14. Hill - the new MLE's knocked him down from 12.
15. Snider - The bat + position and his peak are too much to ignore
16. Doby - Could be as high as 11, could be as low as 23. His style and what I think is the best representation of his value gets him here, but see merits in having him higher and lower. Goes for everyone on this list, but damn wish we could've seen a career without the impacts of racism.
17. Carey - One of the bets baserunners non Rickey! and Raines division of all time. Perfectly suited for deadball, which maybe should hinder him, however as with Speaker, I think his fielding is undersold a bunch, he is certainly next division down from the Mays, Speaker, Flood and Jones quadrant as best defensive / most valuable center fielders of all-time.
18. Ashburn - There's a lot there for 15 years
19. Gore - After season length adjustments - still a solid HOM guy. The peak is pretty excellent too.
20. Dawson - I am a careerist. 1981 needs a big bump too - he's a gut that makes sense to have his career best season be that year.
21. Edmonds - I feel I am lower than most - I have gone from thinking he is very borderline HOF level to thinking he is more solidly in, but he's got a very good prime, the big multiple peak seasons aren't really there.
22. Lofton - The baserunning I believe completely, the defense was very good and occasionally great, and other than 1994 he's not got the tremendous one season peak. Would've likely done better overall in a lower offense or least lower homer era.
23. Oms - the last of the middle - he's a hall of meritor, but towards the bottom rungs
24. Wynn - Boatloads of walks and an underappreciated peak, but the D isn't otherworldly and the career length is a bit shorter.
25. Brown - When the first list came out in 2009, I would've had him last, now - he's nuanced and seems to be better than the MLE's at the time of valuation. Borderline.
26. Jones - How much do you believe in the defense being better than Willie Mays?
27. Bell - I'm a believer to the extent that his baserunning may be underappreciated and maybe his defense is underrated too. He really seemed like a top glove. Think his bat was average at best (good when young, not good when old), so his peak may be suppressed, but likely has a bunch of filler in the War years.
28. Averill - Add PCL years
29. Pike - The peak is great and considering pre NA, there's a case, but it also sounds like 1867-1869, he was merely good rather than great, so he ends up here. Don't have an issue with him in, unlike the last two on the list.
30. Browning - The bat is magical, but the career is short-ish, the D, I think is oversold, likely a historically bad fielder, when he wasn't sober, which doesn't sound like a lot. Probably would've done well playing RF or a DH had he been born a century later. Still the bat is special and can at least understand the thought process.
31. Roush - And everyone moved off win shares, leaving this as arguably the worst pick in the Hall of Merit. Good player, even great player, but peak wasn't high enough, his hitting style was more suited for deadball than liveball and couldn't really adjust and seems to be missing a lot of time in season year to year.
   17. DL from MN Posted: April 05, 2023 at 07:09 PM (#6122772)
Balloting is closed
   18. Guapo Posted: April 05, 2023 at 11:18 PM (#6122837)
Acknowledging the ballot is closed, but I couldn't get a text box earlier either (and I tried multiple times over the last week). For posterity, here's what my ballot would have been:

1. Willie Mays
2. Ty Cobb
3. Tris Speaker
4. Oscar Charleston
5. Mickey Mantle
6. Joe DiMaggio
7. Turkey Stearnes
8. Ken Griffey Jr.
9. Cristobal Torriente
10. Pete Hill
11. Larry Doby
12. Cool Papa Bell
13. Willard Brown
14. Carlos Beltran
15. Andre Dawson
16. Kenny Lofton
17. Billy Hamilton
18. Andruw Jones
19. Duke Snider
20. Jim Edmonds
21. Richie Ashburn
22. Jim O'Rourke
23. Jim Wynn
24. Max Carey
25. Earl Averill
26. Paul Hines
27. Edd Roush
28. Pete Browning
29. George Gore
30. Lip Pike
31. Alejandro Oms

   19. Rob_Wood Posted: April 06, 2023 at 12:17 AM (#6122842)
I hope Guapo's ballot can be counted.

Not being able to post in HOM threads is very annoying and presumably has contributed to the decline in participating/ballots.
   20. DL from MN Posted: April 06, 2023 at 09:30 AM (#6122868)
I will add Guapo's ballot. I also agree that having a broken website is very annoying but I have no idea how to get it fixed. It has been like this for many months.

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