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Pitchers 1893-1923 will probably be our last ranking exercise this summer. We are almost done with LF, CF, RF, SS and 1B. Then it will be MMP season & Hall of Merit Election. Next year we can rank Pitchers 1924-1958, Third Base, Catchers, Second Base and Pitchers Wilhelm->Eckersley.

Old pitchers thread is up

test

v1.4 MLEs

Player Name  WAA WAR
Buck Leonard 61.5 94.3
Mule Suttles 33.9 68.5
Ben Taylor 24.3 63.1

surprised Cepeda fell off the face of the Earth re HOM voting: 379 HR, 1365 RBI, .297 AVG

what did we hate about this guy, again?

what did we hate about [Cepeda], again?

Everything that wasn't hitting? To be less snarky, Cepeda had about 320 runs from batting. That's a nice total! Unfortunately, fully half of that is nullified by his baserunning, double play non-avoidance, and fielding. So you end up with a total package that's not embarrassing as a HOM choice, but not particularly strong. I have him just outside the top 100 available. 50 WAR and 18 WAA are both underwhelming. Only 3 seasons of 5+ WAR isn't much of a peak, either.

379 HR, 1365 RBI, .297 AVG

Carlos Lee: 358 HR, 1363 RBI, .288 AVG
Paul Konerko: 439 HR, 1412 RBI, .279 AVG
Andres Galarraga: 399 HR, 1425 RBI, .288 AVG
Jim Rice: 382 HR, 1451 RBI, .298 AVG
Ellis Burks: 352 HR, 1206 RBI, .291 AVG (and this guy was a CF)
Dave Parker: 339 HR, 1493 RBI, .290 AVG
Albert Belle: 381 HR, 1239 RBI, .295 AVG (and didn't even have 6000 ABs)
Fred McGriff: 493 HR, 1510 RBI, .284 AVG
Carlos Delgado: 473 HR, 1512 RBI, .280 AVG
Juan Gonzalez: 434 HR, 1404 RBI, .295 AVG

Should any of these guys be knocking on the door of HOM? This list could go on; there's just tons of guys who are all around Cepeda according to these baseball card stats (some better, some worse). Why would we hate all these guys?

Cepeda is a pretty classic win shares guy - hyper durable, questionable defense, played on a winning team. I feel like there are a few guys like that who have fallen off with the electorate with the decline in win shares - Ken Singleton comes to mind as well. Norm Cash is kind of like that, but he's more viable in this WAR world.

Back of the baseball card stats probably undersell him - 1960s NL is not exactly a friendly environment for hitters.

To be less snarky

oh, don't sell yourself short - you're a tremendous snark !

;)

Carlos Lee: 358 HR, 1363 RBI, .288 AVG
Paul Konerko: 439 HR, 1412 RBI, .279 AVG
Andres Galarraga: 399 HR, 1425 RBI, .288 AVG
Jim Rice: 382 HR, 1451 RBI, .298 AVG
Ellis Burks: 352 HR, 1206 RBI, .291 AVG (and this guy was a CF)
Dave Parker: 339 HR, 1493 RBI, .290 AVG
Albert Belle: 381 HR, 1239 RBI, .295 AVG (and didn't even have 6000 ABs)
Fred McGriff: 493 HR, 1510 RBI, .284 AVG
Carlos Delgado: 473 HR, 1512 RBI, .280 AVG
Juan Gonzalez: 434 HR, 1404 RBI, .295 AVG

Should any of these guys be knocking on the door of HOM? This list could go on; there's just tons of guys who are all around Cepeda according to these baseball card stats (some better, some worse). Why would we hate all these guys?

McGriff looks worthy to these eyes.

Parker and Delgado are slammed on defense by TZ, Kiko, OAA, DrA are a little to a lot more favorable, enough that we should keep them on the radar as potentially bubble HOMers.

I do think that Cepeda is short.

I think first in line among unelected first basemen has to be Norm Cash. He and Cepeda are exact contemporaries, both 1958-74, and Cash brings a more well-rounded game:

Cash, 1958-74, 2061 G. 377 HR, .271 BA, .374 OBP, .488 SLG, 139 OPS+, 38 rField, 52.0 BWAR
Cepeda, 1958-74, 2124 G, 379 HR, .297 BA, .350 OBP, .499 SLG, 133 OPS+, -11 rField, 50.1 BWAR

Cash would be farther ahead in BWAR were it not for the league strength adjustment. Here's how the top 12 unelected 1960s players line up in my system:

Willie Davis, Vada Pinson, Norm Cash, Jim Kaat, Jim Fregosi, Orlando Cepeda, Rocky Colavito, Camilio Pascual, Tony Oliva, Sam McDowell, Luis Aparicio, jim Maloney.

There are all excellent players, and none of them would be embarrassingly bad choices for the HoM, but there are a hundred other unelected players in this range.

Among unelected first basemen, we've got

Jason Giambi, John Olerud, Fred McGriff, Frank Chance, Tony Perez, Norm Cash, Mark Teixeira, and maybe Gil Hodges before we get to Cepeda, as I see it. (Ben Taylor almost certainly belongs somewhere in this list, though I am far from set on his placement within it at the moment, and maybe Bill Pettus.) This is also a list of truly outstanding ballplayers.

Whatever comparison group we might look at, there are a lot of excellent baseball players who are not in the Hall of Merit. Look at any one of those players in isolation, and you might say, "He was really good; maybe he belongs," but when you take a step back and consider all the top unelected players, it becomes much less easy to pick any one player out and say, "He's over the line and belongs in the HoM."