Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Hall of Merit > Discussion
Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Wednesday, September 20, 2023

Reranking Pitchers 1893-1923: Ballot

Rank the following 19 pitchers

Pete Alexander
Mordecai Brown
Stan Coveleski
Red Faber
Rube Foster
Clark Griffith
Walter Johnson
Christy Mathewson
Joe McGinnity
Jose Mendez
Kid Nichols
Eddie Plank
Cannonball Dick Redding
Eppa Rixey
Amos Rusie
Rube Waddell
Ed Walsh
Smokey Joe Williams
Cy Young

DL from MN Posted: September 20, 2023 at 07:17 PM | 13 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Related News:

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Jaack Posted: September 20, 2023 at 08:57 PM (#6141919)
Mostly unchanged from the discussion:

1. Walter Johnson
2. Cy Young
3. Pete Alexander
4. Christy Mathewson
5. Joe Williams
6. Kid Nichols
7. Eddie Plank
8. Ed Walsh
9. Rube Waddell
10. Dick Redding - Pushed down a bit after the discussion on him - still very much a worthy choice for me, but perhaps not quite as top line.
11. Amos Rusie
-- Babe Adams
12. Jose Mendez
13. Eppa Rixey
14. Mordecai Brown
15. Stan Coveleski
16. Clark Griffith
17. Red Faber
-- Eddie Cicotte
-- Wilbur Cooper
-- Urban Shocker
18. Rube Foster
-- Vic Willis
-- Noodles Hahn
-- Chief Bender
-- Jack Quinn
19. Joe McGinnity
   2. kcgard2 Posted: September 20, 2023 at 09:05 PM (#6141920)
1. Cy Young
2. Walter Johnson
3. Pete Alexnder
4. Christy Mathewson
5. Kid Nichols
6. Joe Williams - running the latest MLEs placed him a hair behind Nichols
7. Ed Walsh
8. Rube Waddell
9. Eddie Plank
10. Stan Coveleski
11. Amos Rusie
12. Red Faber
13. Mordecai Brown
14. Dick Redding - despite the discussion, the latest MLEs moved him up a little bit for me, even after letting some air out
15. Eppa Rixey
16. José Méndez
17. Clark Griffith
18. Joe McGinnity
19. Rube Foster
   3. bjhanke Posted: October 01, 2023 at 09:59 AM (#6142965)
Here's mine, I can't justify it with hard numbers, because there are too many pitchers here for whom I don't have hard numbers. So, I had to go on reputation. Smokey Joe Williams, for example. My head says that he has the best reputation of any negro pitcher except for Satchel. If that's not right, of course, I am wrong, If it turns out to be right but irrelevant, I am wrong. I can only go with what I do know, not what I don't. I rank Three Finger Brown highly because I believe him to be the most-leveraged starting pitcher of his era. Teams at the time would arrange their rotations to match their best pitchers to sell more tickets. Brown had a huge amount of that. Also, for his best decade, Brown played for the best team in his league. Opponents would move their aces to face the Cubs, and the pitcher they would move the ace for was Brown. In short, I think he's even better than his record. I could be wrong. I haven't studied the issue in detail because it's proved too complicated every time I've tried If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. This is the early 20th century. Hard facts are rare.

1. Walter Johnson
2. Cy Young
3. Pete Alexander
4. Smokey Joe Williams
5. Kid Nichols
6. Christy Mathewson
7. Mordecai Brown
8. Ed Walsh
9. Eddie Plank
10. Amos Rusie
11. Rube Waddell
12. Clark Griffith
13. Joe McGinnity
14. Red Faber
15. José Méndez
16. Stan Coveleski
17. Dick Redding
18. Eppa Rixey
19. Rube Foster
   4. cookiedabookie Posted: October 02, 2023 at 04:30 PM (#6143164)
1. Walter Johnson PHOM 1933
2. Cy Young PHOM 1917
3. Pete Alexander PHOM 1936
4. Kid Nichols PHOM 1912
5. Joe Williams PHOM 1938
6. Christy Mathewson PHOM 1922
7. Eddie Plank PHOM 1924
8. Dick Redding PHOM 1942
9. Ed Walsh PHOM 1925
---Babe Adams PHOM 1933---
10. Jose Mendez PHOM 1932
11. Rube Waddell PHOM 1916
12. Stan Coveleski PHOM 1937
---Urban Shocker PHOM 1937---
13. Amos Rusie PHOM 1908
14. Clark Griffith PHOM 1921
---Eddie Cicotte PHOM 1927---
15. Mordecai Brown PHOM 1929
---Vic Willis PHOM 1919---
16. Red Faber
17. Joe McGinnity
18. Eppa Rixey
19. Rube Foster
   5. DL from MN Posted: October 03, 2023 at 02:41 PM (#6143339)
1) Walter Johnson - also my #1 pitcher all-time
2) Pete Alexander
3) Cy Young - additions before 1893 bring him closer to Pete but just short. This is all about Dan R's inning adjustments
4) Joe Williams - top 4 are in my top 10 all-time
5) Christy Mathewson
6) Kid Nichols - pretty clear top 6
7) Dick Redding
8) Amos Rusie
9) Jose Mendez
10) Eddie Plank
11) Stan Coveleski
12) Ed Walsh
-- Urban Shocker
13) Eppa Rixey
14) Rube Waddell
15) Clark Griffith
16) Red Faber
-- Wilbur Cooper
-- Babe Adams
17) Mordecai Brown - marginal pick
-- Dolf Luque, Vic Willis
18) Joe McGinnity - not PHoM
19) Rube Foster
   6. Howie Menckel Posted: October 03, 2023 at 09:13 PM (#6143418)
I would strongly recommend we give this another week. I almost missed myself, and I rarely if ever do that !

the schedule of this category has confused me, frankly, so I might not be alone in that regard.

1. WALTER JOHNSON
2. CY YOUNG
3. JOE WILLIAMS
4. GROVER CLEVELAND ALEXANDER
5. CHRISTY MATHEWSON
6. KID NICHOLS
7. ED WALSH
8. EDDIE PLANK
9. MORDECAI BROWN
10. JOE MCGINNITY
11. DICK REDDING
12. AMOS RUSIE
13. STAN COVELESKI
14. RED FABER
15. CLARK GRIFFITH
16. EPPA RIXEY
17. RUBE FOSTER
18. RUBE WADDELL
19. JOSE MENDEZ
   7. Rob_Wood Posted: October 03, 2023 at 11:44 PM (#6143448)
1. Walter Johnson
2. Cy Young
3. Pete Alexander
4. Smokey Joe Williams
5. Kid Nichols
6. Christy Mathewson
7. Jose Mendez
8. Eddie Plank
9. Amos Rusie
10. Ed Walsh
11. Stan Coveleski
12. Rube Waddell
13. Dick Redding
14. Joe McGinnity
15. Rube Foster
16. Clark Griffith
17. Red Faber
18. Mordecai Brown
19. Eppa Rixey
   8. Chris Cobb Posted: October 04, 2023 at 12:24 PM (#6143485)
1. Walter Johnson
2. Cy Young
3. Pete Alexander
4. Kid Nichols
5. Christy Mathewson
6. Joe Williams
7. Eddie Plank
8. Ed Walsh
9. Amos Rusie
10. Stan Coveleski
11. Clark Griffith
12. Jose Mendez
13. Rube Waddell
14. Red Faber
15. Joe McGinnity
16. Mordecai Brown
17. Dick Redding
18. Eppa Rixey
19. Rube Foster

Same as preliminary ballot. I still haven't finished a re-evaluation of Dick Redding, as it has entailed a complete overhaul of my IP estimates for the Negro Leagues, using a season-level approach, but nothing I have found so far suggests that Redding should rank higher. (Although the focuss of the study is Redding, it is gathering most of the information I will need to reassess Joe Williams and Jose Mendez as well, so I hope to present a comprehensive look at Negro-League pitchers from c. 1908-1927 sometime in the next six months . . .)
   9. Bleed the Freak Posted: October 04, 2023 at 12:27 PM (#6143486)
1. Walter Johnson
2. Cy Young

3. Joe Williams
4. Pete Alexander
5. Kid Nichols
6. Christy Mathewson

7. Eddie Plank
8. Ed Walsh

9. Dick Redding - flipped Walsh ahead and moved him down to this tier.
10. Stan Coveleski
11. Mordecai Brown - large strength of schedule boost
12. Amos Rusie
(Urban Shocker)
13. Rube Waddell
14. Joe McGinnity - some MLE credit for pre-NL nudges him ahead of Mendez.
15. Jose Mendez
(Babe Adams)
(Vic Willis)
-in-out line-
(Eddie Cicotte)
16. Red Faber
17. Clark Griffith
(Charles "Chief" Bender, Theodore Breitenstein, Wilbur Cooper, Noodles Hahn, Carl Mays, Jose Munoz, Jack Quinn, Nap Rucker, George Uhle, Hippo Vaughn)
18. Eppa Rixey

19. Rube Foster
   10. Michael J. Binkley's anxiety closet Posted: October 04, 2023 at 03:59 PM (#6143508)
1. Walter Johnson
2. Cy Young
3. Pete Alexander
4. Christy Mathewson
5. Kid Nichols
6. Joe Williams
7. Ed Walsh
8. Jose Mendez
9. Eddie Plank
10. Mordecai Brown
(Urban Shocker)
11. Rube Waddell
(Vic Willis)
(Eddie Cicotte)
12. Dick Redding
13. Stan Coveleski
(Babe Adams)
(Dolf Luque - really evenly split between this era and the next)
14. Amos Rusie
(George Uhle)
15. Clark Griffith
16. Joe McGinnity
17. Red Faber
(approximate PHoM line)
18. Rube Foster
19. Eppa Rixey
   11. DL from MN Posted: October 06, 2023 at 11:33 AM (#6143729)
10 voters, we usually get 12. I'll leave this open until next Wednesday. Then we'll start MMP discussion for 2023.
   12. Guapo Posted: October 12, 2023 at 10:43 AM (#6144315)
Posting in the discussion thread opened up the ballot thread. Sorry for the late ballot.

1. Cy Young
2. Walter Johnson
3. Pete Alexander
4. Kid Nichols
5. Christy Mathewson
6. Smokey Joe Williams
7. Eddie Plank
8. Jose Mendez
9. Red Faber
10. Stan Coveleski
11. Rube Waddell
12. Ed Walsh
13. Dick Redding
14. Mordecai Brown
15. Eppa Rixey
16. Amos Rusie
17. Joe McGinnity
18. Clark Griffith
19. Rube Foster
   13. DL from MN Posted: October 12, 2023 at 02:22 PM (#6144345)
That's the last ballot, election is over

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Dynasty League Baseball

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Syndicate

Page rendered in 0.3016 seconds
41 querie(s) executed