1. Honus Wagner
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Cal Ripken
4. Arky Vaughan
5. John Henry Lloyd
6. George Davis
7. Willie Wells
8. Ernie Banks
9. Barry Larkin
10. Robin Yount
11. Bill Dahlen
12. Pee Wee Reese
13. Ozzie Smith
14. Home Run Johnson
15. Luke Appling
16. Alan Trammell
17. Joe Cronin
18. Derek Jeter
19. Dobie Moore
20. Bobby Wallace
21. Lou Boudreau
22. Jack Glasscock
23. George Wright
24. John Ward
25. Hughie Jennings
26. Dick Lundy
27. Joe Sewell
28. Dickey Pearce

1. Honus Wagner
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Willie Wells
4. Arky Vaughan
5. Cal Ripken
6. Luke Appling
7. Pee Wee Reese
8. George Davis
9. Pop Lloyd
10. George Wright
11. Barry Larkin - Slight re-evaluation up for him
12. Bill Dahlen
13. Lou Boudreau
14. Robin Yount
15. Joe Cronin
16. Ernie Banks
17. Jack Glasscock
18. Derek Jeter
19. Alan Trammell
20. Ozzie Smith - Some re-evaluation, but I think my initial placing was accurate. He does have teh best glove here, but the gap between his glove and most of these other guys is way smaller than between his bat and the competition.
21. Bobby Wallace
22. Dick Lundy
23. Dickey Pearce
24. Dobie Moore
25. Monte Ward - Down a smidge based on the discussion in the other thread.
-- Bert Campaneris
26. Hughie Jennings
27. Grant Johnson
-- Joe Tinker
-- Vern Stephens
-- Bus Clarkson
-- Johnny Pesky
-- Phil Rizzuto
-- Jim Fregosi
-- Art Fletcher
-- Dave Bancroft
-- Luis Aparicio
28. Joe Sewell

Election will end June 7

1. Honus Wagner
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Pop Lloyd
4. Cal Ripken
5. Willie Wells
6. Arky Vaughan
7. Luke Appling
8. George Davis
9. Pee Wee Reese
10. Barry Larkin
11. Bill Dahlen
12. Ozzie Smith
13. Lou Boudreau
14. Alan Trammell
15. Joe Cronin
16. John Ward
17. Robin Yount
18. Jack Glasscock
19. Ernie Banks
20. Derek Jeter
21. George Wright
22. Bobby Wallace
23. Home Run Johnson
24. Dick Lundy
25. Hughie Jennings
26. Joe Sewell
27. Dickey Pearce
28. Dobie Moore

1. Honus Wagner
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Cal Ripken
4. Willie Wells
5. John Henry Lloyd
6. Arky Vaughan
7. Pee Wee Reese
-- John Beckwith --
8. Robin Yount
9. George Davis
10. Barry Larkin
11. Luke Appling
12. Derek Jeter
13. Alan Trammell
14. Bill Dahlen
15. Ernie Banks
16. Jack Glasscock
17. Ozzie Smith
18. George Wright
19. Bobby Wallace
20. Home Run Johnson
21. Lou Boudreau
22. Joe Cronin
23. Dick Lundy
-- Joe Tinker --
-- Bert Campaneris --
24. Dobie Moore
-- Art Fletcher --
25. Hughie Jennings
26. John Ward
-- Dave Bancroft --
-- Vern Stephens --
-- Phil Rizzuto --
-- Johnny Pesky --
27. Dickey Pearce
-- Dave Concepcion --
28. Joe Sewell

1. Honus Wagner
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Willie Wells
4. Cal Ripken Jr.
5. Pop Lloyd
6. Pee Wee Reese
7. Arky Vaughan
8. Luke Appling
9. Barry Larkin
10. George Davis
11. Bill Dahlen
12. Alan Trammell
13. Lou Boudreau
14. Robin Yount
15. Ozzie Smith
16. Joe Cronin
17. Ernie Banks
18. Derek Jeter
19. Bobby Wallace
20. Dick Lundy
21. Grant Johnson

---PHoM: Tinker, Clarkson, Vargas---

22. Jack Glasscock
23. Dobie Moore

---PHoM: Rizutto, Fletcher---

24. John Ward
25. George Wright

---PHoM cutoff---

26. Joe Sewell
27. Dickey Pearce
28. Hughie Jennings

SS ballot

1) Honus Wagner - this is not close
2) Alex Rodriguez
3) John Henry Lloyd - Rodriguez and Lloyd are very close
4) Cal Ripken Jr
5) Willie Wells
6) Arky Vaughan
7) Luke Appling
8) Ozzie Smith
9) Bill Dahlen
10) Barry Larkin
11) George Davis
12) Alan Trammell
13) Jack Glasscock - he moves up when I recalculate. LOTS of good seasons
14) Robin Yount
15) Joe Cronin
16) Pee Wee Reese
17) Lou Boudreau
18) Derek Jeter - the defense is that bad
19) Bobby Wallace
20) Ernie Banks
21) George Wright - short career over at age 32, started pre-NA, probably the best player in baseball for a period of time
22) Grant Johnson
23) Joe Sewell
24) Dobie Moore
25) Dickey Pearce - definitely belongs in the Hall of Fame as a pioneer, not sure if he belongs in the Hall of Merit since so much of his career is before organized baseball
Phil Rizzuto
Bert Campaneris
26) Monte Ward - a closer look makes him less impressive, not great at SS or P
Dave Bancroft
27) Dick Lundy
Johnny Pesky
Dave Concepcion (not PHoM but close)
28) Hughie Jennings

Everyone elected is PHoM

1. HONUS WAGNER
2. A-ROD
3. POP LLOYD
4. CAL RIPKEN
5. ARKY VAUGHAN
6. GEORGE DAVIS
7. BILL DAHLEN
8. WILLIE WELLS - Chris Cobb laid out the "Lloyd v Wells" challenge quite well, and if you're legitimately in the same discussion with Lloyd....
9. ROBIN YOUNT
10. ERNIE BANKS - 1B play mostly useless. but what a peak, and at SS !
11. BARRY LARKIN
12. LUKE APPLING
13. ALAN TRAMMELL
14. OZZIE SMITH - Like Davis/Dahlen, how to squeeze anyone in between these two?
15. GEORGE WRIGHT- Another peak pick.
16. DEREK JETER - Like some others, I needed more peak to overcome the issues on D. But mid-pack among these names is still pride-worthy.
17. JOE CRONIN
18. PEE WEE REESE
19. LOU BOUDREAU
20. HUGHIE JENNINGS - Another peak pick.
21. JACK GLASSCOCK
22. GRANT JOHNSON
23. DICKEY PEARCE
24. JOHN MONTGOMERY WARD
25. BOBBY WALLACE
26. DOBIE MOORE
27. JOE SEWELL
28. DICK LUNDY

1. Honus Wagner
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Willie Wells
4. Cal Ripken
5. George Davis
6. John Henry Lloyd
7. Luke Appling
8. Arky Vaughan
9. Jack Glasscock
10. Pee Wee Reese
11. Bill Dahlen
12. Ernie Banks
13. Alan Trammell
14. Derek Jeter
15. Bobby Wallace
16. Ozzie Smith
17. Barry Larkin
18. Robin Yount
19. Lou Boudreau
20. George Wright
21. John Montgomery Ward
22. Dobie Moore
23. Joe Cronin
24. Hughie Jennings
25. Dick Lundy
26. Grant Johnson
-----------------------
27. Joe Sewell
28. Dickey Pearce

1. Honus Wagner
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Cal Ripken, Jr.
4. George Wright
5. John Henry Lloyd
6. George Davis
7. Robin Yount
8. Willie Wells
9. Arky Vaughan
10. Derek Jeter
11. Bill Dahlen
12. Jack Glasscock
13. Luke Appling
14. Barry Larkin
15. Alan Trammell
16. Ozzie Smith
17. Pee Wee Reese
18. Ernie Banks
19. Lou Boudreau
20. Bobby Wallace
21. Grant Johnson
22. Joe Cronin
23. Dickey Pearce
24. Dick Lundy
25. Hughie Jennings
26. Dobie Moore
27. John Ward
28. Joe Sewell

One week left to vote

Alex02 Posted: June 05, 2023 at 09:55 AM (#6131546)
The site for whatever reason won't let me post in the ballot thread but will let me post here, so please consider this my official ballot!

1. Honus Wagner
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Cal Ripken Jr.
4. John Henry Lloyd
5. Arky Vaughan
6. Willie Wells
7. Luke Appling
8. Robin Yount
9. Pee Wee Reese
10. Ernie Banks
11. George Davis
12. Derek Jeter
13. Ozzie Smith
14. Alan Trammell
15. Barry Larkin
16. Bill Dahlen
17. Dick Lundy
18. Joe Cronin
19. Home Run Johnson
20. Bobby Wallace
21. Lou Boudreau
22. Jack Glasscock
23. Dobie Moore
24. John Ward
25. Joe Sewell
26. George Wright
27. Hughie Jennings
28. Dickey Pearce

1. Honus Wagner- My #11 player of all-time.
2. Alex Rodriguez- My #12 player of all-time.
3. Willie Wells- My #25 player of all-time. Perhaps the most underrated all-time great in baseball history.
4. Cal Ripken, Jr- My #36 player of all-time.
5. John Henry Lloyd- My #46 player of all-time.
6. Luke Appling- My #68 player of all-time.
7. George Davis- My #74 player of all-time.
8. Alan Trammell- My #80 player of all-time.
9. Pee Wee Reese- My #83 player of all-time. Historically underrated due to being called "Pee Wee."
10. Robin Yount- My #86 player of all-time.
11. Ozzie Smith- My #87 player of all-time.
12. Arky Vaughan- I have him lower than probably any other voter- relatively short career (thanks to Leo Durocher). Doesn't quite make my top 100, but he might be #101.
13. Bobby Wallace
14. Barry Larkin
15. Bill Dahlen
16. Derek Jeter. 12-16 are all very close for me.
17. Jack Glasscock
18. Dick Lundy
19. Ernie Banks
20. Joe Cronin
21. Lou Boudreau
22. Home Run Johnson
23. Joe Sewell
24. Dobie Moore- not in my PHOM, although he would be if I was a peak voter. I don't have a problem with his election.
25. Hughie Jennings- is in my PHOM, elected in 1908 in his first year eligible (the ballot was a lot shallower back then.)
26. George Wright- is in my PHOM, elected in 1906.
27. John Ward- not PHOM. I see him as a very good shortstop with an unremarkable pitching career- that isn't a HOMer in my book.
28. Dickey Pearce- would support him as a hall inductee as a "pioneer," but the limited statistical record surrounding his career was not compelling to me.

12. Arky Vaughan- I have him lower than probably any other voter- relatively short career (thanks to Leo Durocher). Doesn't quite make my top 100, but he might be #101.

26. George Wright- is in my PHOM, elected in 1906.

What drops Vaughan this low?

Does Wright's assessment include pre-NA value?

1. Honus Wagner
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Cal Ripken, Jr.
4. Arky Vaughan
5. Willie Wells
6. George Wright
7. John Henry Lloyd
8. Robin Yount
9. Alan Trammell
10. Barry Larkin
11. George Davis
12. Dobie Moore
13. Luke Appling
14. Ernie Banks
15. Jack Glasscock
16. Lou Boudreau
17. Ozzie Smith
18. Bill Dahlen
19. Joe Cronin
20. Hughie Jennings
21. Derek Jeter
22. Dick Lundy
23. Pee Wee Reese
(Nomah!)
24. Bobby Wallace
25. Grant Johnson
26. Dickey Pearce
(PHoM line)
(Jim Fregosi)
(Bus Clarkson)
(Bert Campaneris)
(Dave Concepcion)
(Art Fletcher)
(Joe Tinker)
(Dave Bancroft)
27. Joe Sewell - one of our 1930's overglut
(Phil Rizzuto)
28. Monte Ward - not good enough of a pitcher long enough, nor good enough a shortstop long enough, and even together he's not within sniffing distance of my PHoM - but I'd put him any contributor wing for his labor efforts.

23. Pee Wee Reese

What's in the secret sauce for Reese at @23?

This is with 3 prime seasons of WWII credit?

A couple of additional points to consider:
Kiko's stats have him as an all-time credit fielder.
He was much stronger situational hitter than context neutral at +7.4 wins. A 94 OPS+ in low leverage situations, 107 in high leverage.

Bleed-

I actually really like Reese. My system his very peak heavy - I only consider above positional median (slight variant of WAA), with an extra bonus for my version of WAG (essentially 3 wins above average). My current PHoM borderline is 80 points in my system (Reese is at 100 - essentially the borderline for my small hall preferences). He only has 5.7 WAG in my system (most "small hall" inductees for me have 10+ WAG) but Reese has more than enough WAA, including WWII credit, Reese has 13 straight years above 4.4 WAR - 12 of those 13 above 2.2 WAA, to make up for the relative lack of WAG.

To get to my Wins Above Positional Median, like with DanR's WARP, shortstops throughout most of baseball history are underrated by most WAR systems, so pretty much all shortstops get boosted relative to other positions.

So long story short, Reese is an obvious HoMer - it's just that the shortstops I have above him had bigger/longer peaks.

17. Michael J. Binkley's anxiety closet Posted: June 07, 2023 at 02:02 PM (#6131822)

So long story short, Reese is an obvious HoMer - it's just that the shortstops I have above him had bigger/longer peaks.

Thank you for elaborating.

My system his very peak heavy

the ranking of Jeter also reflects this point of view - 14 straight OPS+s of 100 or better, and 16 in all. impressive, for sure.

peak would be: 153 132 128 127 125 125 125 124 121

9th-best season at 121 speaks well of a "prime" case.

but only one top 10 in AL in OPS in his career is not terribly "peak-y."

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