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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Monday, August 02, 2004The Baseball Hall of Merit Plaque Room: Home PageEnter here to see the players that have been immortalized in the Hall of Merit. John Murphy was the curator of the Plaque Room and creator (with Ryan Wagman’s help) of the plaques. As of 2011 the creator of the plaques is theorioleway. David Foss is in charge of the franchise cap standings. Devin McCullen provides the city and state cap standings. yest helps us out double-checking the plaques for accuracy. The whole process is overseen by our commissioner and founder Joe Dimino. For Hall of Meriters A-F, please click here. The current roster (267 total) includes (in alphabetical order for each position): Pitchers (74): Pete Alexander+, Kevin Brown+, Bert Blyleven+, Mordecai Brown, Ray Brown+, Jim Bunning+, Steve Carlton+, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson+, Roger Clemens+**, Stan Coveleski, David Cone, Martín Dihigo+, Don Drysdale+, Dennis Eckersley+, Red Faber+, Bob Feller+, Wes Ferrell, Rollie Fingers, Whitey Ford+, Rube Foster, Willie Foster, Pud Galvin, Bob Gibson+, Tom Glavine+, Rich Gossage+, Clark Griffith, Lefty Grove+*, Carl Hubbell+, Walter Johnson+*, Fergie Jenkins, Randy Johnson+*, Tim Keefe, Sandy Koufax+, Bob Lemon, Ted Lyons, Greg Maddux+**, Juan Marichal+, Pedro Martinez+, Christy Mathewson+**, Joe McGinnity, José Méndez, Mike Mussina, Hal Newhouser+, Kid Nichols+, Phil Niekro, Satchel Paige+, Jim Palmer+, Gaylord Perry+, Billy Pierce, Eddie Plank, Charley Radbourn, Rick Reuschel, Eppa Rixey, Robin Roberts+, Bullet Rogan+, Red Ruffing, Amos Rusie+, Nolan Ryan, Bret Saberhagen, Curt Schilling, Tom Seaver+**, John Smoltz, Warren Spahn+, Al Spalding, Dave Stieb, Don Sutton+, Dazzy Vance, Rube Waddell, Ed Walsh+, Hoyt Wilhelm+, Smokey Joe Williams, Early Wynn and Cy Young+*. Catchers (22): Johnny Bench+, Charlie Bennett, Yogi Berra+, Roger Bresnahan, Roy Campanella+, Gary Carter+, Mickey Cochrane+, Bill Dickey, Buck Ewing+, Carlton Fisk+, Bill Freehan, Josh Gibson+, Gabby Hartnett+, Biz Mackey, Cal McVey, Mike Piazza+, Ivan Rodriguez+, Louis Santop+, Ted Simmons+, Joe Torre, Quincy Trouppe and Deacon White+. First Basemen (23): Cap Anson+, Jeff Bagwell+, Jake Beckley, Dan Brouthers+**, Will Clark+, Roger Connor+, Jimmie Foxx+, Lou Gehrig+*, Hank Greenberg+, Keith Hernandez+, Harmon Killebrew+, Buck Leonard+, Willie McCovey+, Mark McGwire+, Johnny Mize+, Eddie Murray+, Rafael Palmeiro, George Sisler, Joe Start, Mule Suttles, Bill Terry+, Frank Thomas+, and Jim Thome+. Second Basemen (23): Roberto Alomar+, Ross Barnes+, Craig Biggio+, Rod Carew+, Cupid Childs, Eddie Collins, Bobby Doerr, Nellie Fox, Frankie Frisch, Charlie Gehringer+, Joe Gordon, Frank Grant, Bobby Grich+, Billy Herman, Rogers Hornsby+**, Nap Lajoie+, Bid McPhee, Joe Morgan+, Willie Randolph, Hardy Richardson, Jackie Robinson+, Ryne Sandberg+, and Lou Whitaker+. Third Basemen (21): Dick Allen+, Frank Baker+, John Beckwith, Wade Boggs+*, George Brett+**, Ken Boyer, Jimmy Collins, Darrell Evans+, Heinie Groh, Stan Hack, Chipper Jones+*, Eddie Mathews+, John McGraw, Paul Molitor+, Graig Nettles, Brooks Robinson, Scott Rolen+, Ron Santo+, Mike Schmidt+*, Ezra Sutton, and Jud Wilson. Shortstops (26): Luke Appling+, Ernie Banks+, Lou Boudreau, Joe Cronin, Bill Dahlen+, George Davis+, Jack Glasscock, Hughie Jennings, Home Run Johnson, Barry Larkin+, John Henry Lloyd, Dick Lundy, Dobie Moore, Dickey Pearce, Pee Wee Reese+, Cal Ripken, Jr.+**, Joe Sewell, Ozzie Smith+, Alan Trammell+, Arky Vaughan+, Honus Wagner+*, Bobby Wallace, John Ward+, Willie Wells, George Wright and Robin Yount+. Left Fielders (24): Jesse Burkett, Barry Bonds+*, Fred Clarke+, Ed Delahanty+, Goose Goslin, Rickey Henderson+*, Monte Irvin, Charley Jones, Charlie Keller, Joe Kelley, Ralph Kiner, Sherry Magee, Joe Medwick, Minnie Minoso, Stan Musial+*, Tim Raines+, Jimmy Sheckard, Al Simmons+, Willie Stargell+, Harry Stovey, Zack Wheat+, Billy Williams, Ted Williams+*, and Carl Yastrzemski+. Center Fielders (28): Richie Ashburn+, Earl Averill, Cool Papa Bell, Willard Brown, Pete Browning, Max Carey, Oscar Charleston+, Ty Cobb+, Andre Dawson, Joe DiMaggio+*, Larry Doby+, Jim Edmonds, George Gore+, Ken Griffey, Jr.+**, Billy Hamilton+, Pete Hill+, Paul Hines+ , Mickey Mantle+*, Willie Mays+*, Alejandro Oms, Jim O’Rourke+, Lip Pike, Edd Roush, Duke Snider+, Tris Speaker+, Turkey Stearnes+, Cristóbal Torriente and Jimmy Wynn. Right Fielders (25): Hank Aaron+*, Roberto Clemente+, Sam Crawford**, Dwight Evans+, Elmer Flick, Tony Gwynn+, Harry Heilmann, Vladimir Guerrero, Joe Jackson, Reggie Jackson+, Al Kaline+, Willie Keeler, King Kelly+, Mel Ott+, Manny Ramirez+,Frank Robinson+**, Pete Rose, Babe Ruth+*, Gary Sheffield, Enos Slaughter+, Reggie Smith, Sam Thompson, Larry Walker+, Paul Waner+ and Dave Winfield+. Designated Hitters (1): Edgar Martinez+ + first-year candidate honorees (151) * unanimously first on each voter’s ballot (18) ** placed in “elect me” ballot positions on each voter’s ballot, but not unanimously in first (11) 2018 Franchise Cap Standings 1. Giants - 19 (Bonds, Bresnahan, WClark, Connor, GDavis, DaEvans, Ewing, Hubbell, Keefe, Marichal, Mathewson, WMays, McCovey, McGinnity, Ott, GPerry, Rusie, Terry, Ward) 2T. Cubs - 17 (Anson, Banks, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, Griffith, Hack, Hartnett, BiHerman, Jenkins, KKelly, Reuschel, Sandberg, Santo, Sheckard, BiWilliams) 2T. Braves - 17 (Aaron, Barnes, Glavine, Jones, Maddux, Mathews, McVey, Nichols, PNiekro, O'Rourke, Smoltz, Spahn, Spalding, ESutton, Torre, DWhite, GWright) 4. Indians - 14 (Averill, Boudreau, Coveleski, Doby, Feller, WFerrell, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Lemon, JSewell, Speaker, Thome, EWynn) 5T. Yankees - 13 (Berra, Dickey, Dimaggio, WFord, Gehrig, Gordon, Gossage, Keller, Mantle, Nettles, Randolph, Ruffing, Ruth) 5T. Cardinals - 13 (KBoyer, Caruthers, Edmonds, Frisch, BGibson, KHernandez, Hornsby, Medwick, Mize, Musial, TSimmons, Slaughter, OSmith) 7T. Athletics - 12 (FBaker, Cochrane, Eckersley, Fingers, Foxx, Grove, Henderson, McGwire, Plank, ReJackson, ASimmons, Waddell) 7T. Phillies - 12 (Alexander, DAllen, Ashburn, Carlton, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, RRoberts, Rolen, Schilling, Schmidt, Thompson) 9T. Tigers - 11 (Bunning, Cobb, Crawford, Freehan, Gehringer, Greenberg, Heilmann, Kaline, Newhouser, Trammell, Whitaker) 9T. Red Sox - 11 (Boggs, Clemens, JCollins, Doerr, DwEvans, Fisk, Martinez, Ramirez, RSmith, TWilliams, Yastrzemski) 11T. Reds - 10 (Bench, CJones, Groh, Larkin, McPhee, Morgan, Rixey, FRobinson, Rose, Roush) 11T. Dodgers - 10 (Campanella, Drysdale, Koufax, Piazza, PWReese, JRobinson, Snider, DSutton, Vance, Wheat) 11T. White Sox - 10 (Appling, ECollins, Faber, Fox, Lyons, Minoso, BPierce, Thomas, Walsh, Wilhelm) 14. Pirates - 9 (Beckley, Carey, Clarke, Clemente, Kiner, Stargell, Vaughn, Wagner, PWaner) 15. Orioles/Browns - 7 (Murray, Mussina, Palmer, Ripken, BRobinson, Sisler, Wallace) 16. Twins/Senators - 6 (Blyleven, Carew, Cronin, Goslin, WJohnson, Killebrew) 17T. Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 4 (Jennings, Keeler, Kelley, McGraw) 17T. Montreal Expos - 4 (GCarter, Dawson, Guerrero, Raines) 19T. Astros - 3 (Bagwell, Biggio, JWynn) 19T. Buffalo Bisons - 3 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson) 19T. Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente) 19T. Cleveland Spiders - 3 (Burkett, Childs, CYoung) 19T. Homestead Grays - 3 (RBrown, JGibson, BLeonard) 19T. Kansas City Monarchs - 3 (WBrown, DMoore, Rogan) 19T. Saint Louis Stars - 3 (CPBell, Suttles, WWells) 19T Rangers - 3 (K. Brown, Palmeiro, Rodriguez) 27T. Angels - 2 (Grich, NRyan) 27T. Baltimore Black Sox - 2 (Beckwith, JWilson) 27T. Blue Jays - 2 (Alomar, Stieb) 27T. Brewers - 2 (Molitor, Yount) 27T. Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start) 27T. Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop) 27T. Mariners - 2 (Griffey Jr., Martinez) 27T. Mets - 2 (Cone, Seaver) 27T. New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams) 27T. Padres - 2 (Gwynn, Winfield) 27T. Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne) 27T. Royals - 2 (Brett, Saberhagen) 39T. Almendares Blues - 1 (JMendez) 39T. Atlantic City Bacharach Giants - 1 (Lundy) 39T. Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock) 39T. Cleveland Buckeyes - 1 (QTrouppe) 39T. Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant) 39T. Cuban Stars East - 1 (Oms) 39T. Detroit Stars - 1 (Stearnes) 39T. Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett) 39T. Diamondbacks - 1 (RJohnson) 39T. Habana Reds - 1 (Dihigo) 39T. Hilldale Daisies - 1 (Mackey) 39T. Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston) 39T. Louisville Colonels - 1 (Browning) 39T. Marlins - 1 (Sheffield) 39T. Newark Eagles - 1 (Irvin) 39T. Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey) 39T. Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster) 39T. Pittsburgh Crawfords - 1 (Paige) 39T Rockies - 1 (Walker) 39T. Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike) 2018 Cap Standings by City 1. Chicago - 30 (Anson, Appling, Banks, M. Brown, J. Clarkson, E. Collins, Dahlen, Faber, B. Foster, Fox, Gore, Griffith, Hack, Hartnett, Herman, Hill, Jenkins, Kelly, Lyons, Minoso, Pierce, Reuschel, Sandberg, Santo, Sheckard, Thomas, Torriente, Walsh, Wilhelm, Bi. Williams) 2. New York - 29 (Berra, Bresnahan, Cone, Connor, G. Davis, Dickey, DiMaggio, Ewing, Ford, Gehrig, Gordon, Gossage, Hubbell, Keefe, Keller, Lloyd, Mantle, Mathewson, McGinnity, Nettles, Ott, Randolph, Ruffing, Rusie, Ruth, Seaver, Terry, Ward, J. Williams) 3. Philadelphia - 21 (Alexander, Allen, Ashburn, Baker, Carlton, Cochrane, Delahanty, R. Foster, Foxx, Grove, Hamilton, Magee, Plank, Roberts, Rolen, Schilling, Schmidt, A. Simmons, H. Stovey, Thompson, Waddell) 4T. Cleveland - 19 (Averill, Boudreau, Burkett, Childs, Coveleski, Doby, Feller, W. Ferrell, Flick, Glasscock, J. Jackson, Lajoie, Lemon, Sewell, Speaker, Thome, Trouppe, E. Wynn, Young) 4T. St. Louis - 19 (Bell, Boyer, Caruthers, Edmonds, Frisch, B. Gibson, Hernandez, Hornsby, Medwick, Mize, Musial, Pike, T. Simmons, Sisler, Slaughter, Smith, Suttles, Wallace, Wells) 4T. Boston - 19 (Barnes, Boggs, Clemens, J. Collins, Doerr, Dw. Evans, Fisk, Martinez, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Ramirez, Smith, Spalding, E. Sutton, White, T. Williams, G. Wright, Yastrzemski) 7T. Detroit - 13 (Bennett, Bunning, Cobb, Crawford, Freehan, Gehringer, Greenberg, Heilmann, Kaline, Newhouser, Stearnes, Trammell, Whitaker) 7T. Pittsburgh - 13 (Beckley, R. Brown, Carey, Clarke, Clemente, J. Gibson, Kiner, B. Leonard, Paige, Stargell, Vaughan, Wagner, Waner) 9. Baltimore - 11 (Beckwith, Jennings, Keeler, Kelley, McGraw, Murray, Mussina, Palmer, Ripken, B. Robinson, Wilson) 10T. Brooklyn* - 10 (Campanella, G. Johnson, Pearce, Reese, J. Robinson, Santop, Snider, Start, Vance, Wheat) 10T. Cincinnati - 10 (Bench, Groh, Jones, Larkin, McPhee, Morgan, Rixey, F. Robinson, Rose, Roush) 12. San Francisco - 7 (Bonds, Clark, Da. Evans, Marichal, Mays, McCovey, G. Perry) 13. Milwaukee - 6 (Aaron, Mathews, Molitor, Spahn, Torre, Yount) 14T. Kansas City - 5 (Brett, W. Brown, Moore, Rogan, Saberhagen) 14T. Oakland - 5 (Eckersley, Fingers, Henderson, R. Jackson, McGwire) 14T. Atlanta - 5 (Glavine, Jones, Maddux, Niekro, Smoltz) 17T. Los Angeles - 4 (Drysdale, Koufax, Piazza, D. Sutton) 17T. Montreal - 4 (Carter, Dawson, Guerrero, Raines) 19T. Buffalo - 3 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson) 19T. Houston - 3 (Bagwell, Biggio, J. Wynn) 19T. Minneapolis/St. Paul - 3 (Blyleven, Carew, Killebrew) 19T. Washington, DC - 3 (Cronin, Goslin, W. Johnson) 19T. Arlington - 3 (K. Brown, Palmeiro, Rodriguez) 24T. Anaheim* - 2 (Grich, N. Ryan) 24T. N/A - 2 (F. Grant, Oms) 24T. Providence - 2 (Hines, Radbourne) 24T. San Diego – 2 (Gwynn, Winfield) 24T. Seattle – 2 (Griffey Jr., Martinez) 24T. Toronto – 2 (Alomar, Stieb) 30T. Almendares* - 1 (Mendez) 30T. Atlantic City – 1 (Lundy) 30T. Darby, PA* - 1 (Mackey) 30T. Denver - 1 (Walker) 30T. Havana - 1 (Dihigo) 30T. Indianapolis - 1 (Charleston) 30T. Louisville – 1 (Browning) 30T. Miami - 1 (Sheffield) 30T. Newark - 1 (Irvin) 30T. Phoenix - 1 (R.Johnson) * Cities marked with an asterisk could be considered to be part of another city. 2018 Cap Standings by State, Province, Foreign Country (if there is no knowm state or province) or U.S. Capital: 1. New York (42) 2. Pennsylvania (35) 3T. Illinois (29) 3T. Ohio (29) 5. Missouri (24) 6. California (20) 7. Massachusetts (19) 8. Michigan (13) 9. Maryland (11) 10T. Wisconsin (6) 10T. Texas (6) 11T. Georgia (5) 12. Quebec (4) 14T. District of Columbia (3) 14T. Minnesota (3) 16T. Cuba (2) 16T. Indiana (2) 16T. Kentucky (2) 16T. New Jersey (2) 16T. Ontario (2) 16T. Rhode Island (2) 16T. Washington (2) 23T. Arizona (1) 23T. Colorado (1) 23T. Florida (1) 23T. Oregon (1)
All Negro League awards mentioned on the plaques are from John Holway’s The Complete Book of Baseball’s Negro Leagues (Fleet Walker Award = MVP; George Stovey Award = Cy Young Award; Rube Foster Award = Playoff MVP). Primary positions on the plaques will be distinguished from secondary positions on all plaques by bold type. Seasons are calculated this way: (Games Played/Team’s Scheduled Games). Each result is added up for each season to get the final number shown on each plaque. Here are the plaques for the 2013 inductees: Roger Clemens - 2013 - P Mike Piazza - 2013 - C Craig Biggio - 2013 - 2B/C/CF JoeD has the Imperial March Stuck in His Head
Posted: August 02, 2004 at 05:37 PM | 1490 comment(s)
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"The Hall of Merit’s first unanimous selection!"
That would go to Cy Young
It should have said "The Hall of Merit's first unanimous selection for a position player"
Once again, thanks!
What I could do is set up links to certain websites that have the information that you have referenced. I can place it at the top of the page as a "Oh, by the way..." for visitors. I have no idea when I can set that up, but I'll keep it on my "things to research" list.
"The problem that I have with your proposal is that this is supposed to be a tribute for the players. As with the HoF, nothing negative is added to each plaque. There is no mention of the Black Sox with Jackson, for example.
However, your proposal would be beneficial on another thread (maybe a statistical overview page?) Remind me about it after I finish updating this room."
Exactly on the negatives. Although I think with Jackson it may be appropriate to mention the scandal.
***********
We also need to think about re-structuring this somehow - maybe listing the players by position or something, with links to a page with all of the plaques for players at that position? Any other ideas?
I know we discussed this earlier, but it was awhile ago.
It'd be really cool if someone has webspace where we could create a 'page' for that player with a picture, his plaque, etc.. I'm sure we have the webspace with BTF, but I have no idea how we'd get the pages up there, etc.. I haven't used Front Page in about 2 years, etc. . . .
on Ross Barnes plaque it says
Injuries and the changing of the fair-foul rule shortened his career (the % of responsibility for each is open to debate)
that sounds negitive to me
Injuries and the changing of the fair-foul rule shortened his career (the % of responsibility for each is open to debate)
that sounds negitive to me
Somewhat true, but I didn't write that one up to begin with. The comments are not really disparaging him, though I admit it is a grey area.
some of the comments people made got cut off in the move if at all possible can you please bring them back.
If I can, I will.
We also need to think about re-structuring this somehow - maybe listing the players by position or something, with links to a page with all of the plaques for players at that position? Any other ideas?
I can take a look at that, Joe.
Although I think with Jackson it may be appropriate to mention the scandal.
Since I'm not particularly forgiving of Jackson for the Blacksox scandal, it wouldn't bother me in the least mentioning it. However, it does set a precedent that may upset others here. Whatever you decide, Joe, is fine with me.
My suggestion back then was to have a alpabetized list of "links" at the top of the page. Something that would replace the "current roster"... something in which all the names would appear on one page. Clicking on a player's link would then send you to that players plaque... which for starters could just point down the same page to the plaque. Each plaque might need a "return to top" link to make navigation a little easier.
I have no idea. I'm assuming it was similar to the Knickerbocker's hat, but that's just a guess on my part.
Though nicknamed “Home Run” for two game-inning clouts against the Giants in the 1911 World Series, the lefty batter also made many more of them during the “Deadball Era.”
Game-ending?
Yup. I will correct shortly. Thanks!
Corrected!
1. Giants - 8 (Connor, Davis, Ewing, Keefe, Mathewson, McGinnity, Rusie, Ward)
2T. Braves - 7 (Barnes, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Spalding, Sutton, GWright)
2T. Cubs - 7 (Anson, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, KKelly, Sheckard)
4T. Buffalo Bisons - 4 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson, DWhite)
4T. Phillies - 4 (Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, Thompson)
6. Indians - 3 (Flick, JJackson, Lajoie)
7T. Athletics - 2 (FBaker, Plank)
7T. Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 2 (Keeler, Kelley)
7T. Brooklyn Atlantics - 1 (Pearce, Start)
7T. Cleveland Spiders - 2 (Burkett, Young)
7T. Pirates - 2 (Clarke, Wagner)
7T. Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
13T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 1 (HRJohnson)
13T.Cardinals - 1 (Caruthers)
13T.Chicago American Giants - 1 - (PHill)
13T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
13T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
13T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
13T.Orioles - 1 (Wallace)
13T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
13T.Red Sox - 1 (JCollins)
13T.Reds - 1 (McPhee)
13T.Tigers - 1 (Crawford)
13T.White Sox - 1 (Walsh)
From what I can see, the non-pillbox baseball-caps were a bit baggier on top with a shorter brim. Perhaps representative of the era is a photo of the 1868 Cincinnati Red Stockings is here. They were the first team to wear knickers, though. The knickers showed off their red stockings.
Trying to find a picture of Pearce somewhere online. Nemec's 19th Century encyclopedia has a lithograph of the 1873 Atlantics. Pearce has a bushy mustache (though not as bushy as others from this era). That's the best I can find right now.
http://www.bluecurl.com/ncbbp/index.htm
Here are the 1865 Atlantics -- pic
Left to right: Frank Norton, Sid Smith, Dickey Pearce, Joe Start, Pete O'Brien (not in uniform), Charles Smith, Jack Chapman, John Galvin, Fred Crane (above Galvin), Tom Pratt.
Another one :
pic2
Pearce appears thinner there than he does in the SABR 19th century book. Maybe he wasn't always that pudgy.
Start also has much more hair than I have seen him with.
And we now know what the caps for the Atlantics looked like now.
:-) We do? Most of the photos were with the caps not in fram unfortunately.
Some more pictures below. The second one was a lithograph made in the early 1900s based on some old photos. The caps look white, but the details are not good. Pearce and Start images are on the Atlantics bench (their faces in the 1900s were taken from old photos).
1866 Atlantics & Athletics
Atlantics batting vs the Mutuals in 1865
There were a few on the floor from the first group picture, David.
Library of Congress
They cover the years 1887-1914 and include pictures of Cy Young, King Kelly, Deacon White, John Ward, Kid Nichols, and many others.
http://www.cycleback.com/1800s/Image423.jpg
how abought a link from a year's ballot discusion thread to the ballot ,results and the previous and next years ballot
Nit: There were two St Louis NA 1875 clubs, the Browns and Reds or Brown Stockings and Red Stockings. Pud Galvin and Dicky Pearce both played for the Browns.
Interesting: Bob Caruthers was(is?) two-time STATS MVP and two-time Win Shares MVP --in four different seasons!
100% correct, Paul. Will correct.
Nit: There were two St Louis NA 1875 clubs, the Browns and Reds or Brown Stockings and Red Stockings. Pud Galvin and Dicky Pearce both played for the Browns.
I'll fix that, too.
I agree that Sheckard walked a lot, but without career strikeout totals, I think "remarkable knowledge" is going a little far. In 1912, Sheckard led the National League in walks, and was second for most strikeouts. Is that indicative of someone with remarkable knowledge of the strike zone, or someone who just doesn't swing at anything anywhere near the corner?
In other words, cover up the "strikeout" totals with one hand, and you might reach the same conclusion about Reggie Jackson!
Except Jackson was never the walking machine that Sheckard was for his era, so his plaque wouldn't include that from me.
I agree that Sheckard walked a lot, but without career strikeout totals, I think "remarkable knowledge" is going a little far.
"Remarkable knowledge of the strike zone" is just another way of saying "he walked a lot." Sheckard fit that to a T.
I'm trying not to repeat myself with each plaque. Ain't easy! :-)
Suggestions for additional "slash" positions.
Anson 3B
Barnes SS
Ewing 1B
Kelley CF
McVey RF
Wagner RF
Walsh RP
Crawford CF
Richardson change OF to LF
Sutton delete 1B
Anson 3B
Barnes SS
Ewing 1B
Kelley CF
McVey RF
Wagner RF
Walsh RP
I agree. I've updated a few myself the past week (Sutton and Brown come to mind), but the ones that you pointed out need to be corrected, too. Thanks!
Richardson change OF to LF
Sutton delete 1B
I agree with Crawford and Richardson, but Sutton was arguably the best first baseman in 1876 so that should stay, IMO.
Well, except he didn't even play half his team's games at the position, only 29 out of 60 that year. And only 3 other games at 1B in the rest of his career.
Good suggestion, yest.
Well, except he didn't even play half his team's games at the position, only 29 out of 60 that year. And only 3 other games at 1B in the rest of his career.
But that's 29 games out of 60 scheduled games for that season, not 29 games out of 162. There was a lot more value then it appears at first glance.
I admit that it's debatable, but I don't think it will hurt anything if I keep it there. But I'll compromise with you: I won't have 1B in bold. How about that?
1B Ed Delahanty played 271 games there
RF/1B Deacon White played 149 games in right and 133 at first
3B Bill Dahlen played 223 games there
RF/3B Buck Ewing played 193 games in right and 127 at third
3B Roger Connor played 111 games there including getting the most DP in 1880
1B/3B Honus Wagner played 248 games at first 209 at third
Regarding slashes, I'm not a big fan of them.
I think the player should be listed by the main position he played, unless he played like 25% (guesstimate) of his career there, including some prime years. Cal Ripken isn't a SS/3B, for example.
I don't think Sutton should be listed as a 3B/SS/1B. He was a 3B. He played parts of a couple of years at SS, but that's not what he was if you catch my drift . . . just my $.02.
I would modify Joe's guideline to say 25% of his career OR 2.5 full seasons worth of games (e.g., 385 games for players in the 154-game season era) OR list a second position if less then 50% of career was played at one position.
I would modify Joe's guideline to say 25% of his career OR 2.5 full seasons worth of games
This sounds like a good idea to determine if a player should be a slash.
My suggestion would be stricter: 1 position if player played 2/3 or more games at that position.
Two positions IF fewer than 2/3 at any single position and player had at least 50% of the games at his first position at his second position (e.g., if Player had 62% of his games at 3B, add a second position only if player also had at least 31% of his games at that second position.)
Exception for outfielders: If a player had more than 2/3 of his games in the outfield, only list the primary outfield position (e.g., if Player had 50% CF, 20% LF, 30% 1B, list only CF, because he had more than 2/3 of his games in the outfield.)
Anything that doesn't make it look like
Mordecai Brown - 1925 - SP/RP
had the same sort of career as
Dennis Eckersley - 2004 - SP/RP.
Mordecai Brown - 1925 - SP/RP
had the same sort of career as
Dennis Eckersley - 2004 - SP/RP.
Agreed.
BTW, I got the inspiration for the different fonts from Riley's The Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Baseball Leagues.
More information is never bad, though. The full positional percentage split (by season or by game) could be listed in the text of the plaque... or its own line below the hat distinction.
by the way instead of
Dennis Eckersley - 2004 - SP/RP.
shouldn't it be
Dennis Eckersley - 2004 - RP/SP.
Eckersley pitched 75% of his innings as a starter, but 2/3 of his games in relief.
For me, it depends on value. Eck was a very good starter, but a monster closer.
I'm with yest on this one.
Thought that might be worth adding.
I have now made mention of that fact for you, Matt, but only that he appeared in more postseason innings than any other pitcher. Performing in a 19th century WS wasn't really the same thing as pitching in a "real" WS, but I agree there should be mention of his performance. Is this OK with everybody?
I also have bold type for primary positions now (as opposed to secondary ones). If there are any problems concerning this, please let me know.
he retired with many of the career records for second basemen (including the major league records for most putouts for a second baseman (529) in 1886 and the career record for fielding average (.978)).
maybe we should add most career assists (6905), career double plays (1186), and career putouts (6545) a record which he still holds.
by the way can you delete the extra )) one
also maybe we should add to Al Spalding’s plaque that he had the most wins every year from 1871-1876
on Ezra Sutton’s plaque it says
“The greatest third baseman of the 19th Century. “
can you change that to
arguably the greatest third baseman of the 19th Century
some of us feel it was Williamson, or McGraw ext.
Also can you add these positions to Monte Ward’s plaque
2B played 491 games there having the most assists in 1893
CF played 110 games there
RF played 101 games there
and to Jessie Burkett’s plaque
RF played 115 games there
and to Sherry Magee’s plaque
CF played 140 games there
1B played 136 games there
RF played 125 games there
and to Joe Jackson’s plaque
CF played 145 games there
and to Elmer Flick’s plaque
CF played 127 games there
and to Cap Anson’s plaque
C played 105 games there
and to Jim O'Rourke's plaque
3B played 148 games there
and to Paul Hines’s plaque
1B played 194 games there
and to Harry Stovey’s plaque
RF played 251 games there
CF played 176 games there
and to Ed Delahanty’s plaque
CF played 250 games there
2B played 131 games there
and to Billy Hamilton’s plaque
RF played 164 games there
and to Sam Crawford’s plaque
1B played 151 games there
LF played 134 games there
and to Joe Kelley’s plaque
1B played 291 games there
and to Napoleon Lajoie’s plaque
1B played 286 games there
maybe to King Kelly’s plaque
3B played 96 games there
SS played 90 games there
maybe to George Gore ’s plaque
LF played 96 games there
and to Joe McGinnity’s plaque maybe RP
started 381 out of 465 games and 24 saves
and to Eddie Plank’s plaque maybe RP
started 529 out of 623 games and 23 saves
and to Christy Mathewson’s plaque maybe RP
started 551 out of 635 games and 28 saves
and to Kid Nichols’s plaque maybe RP
started 551 out of 635 games and 17 saves
and to Cy Young’s plaque maybe RP
started 815 out of 906 games and 17 saves
I meant that the "World Series" of the 19th century wasn't exactly the same as the "World Series" that we are familar with. If you read books concerning the 19th century version, players didn't go all out and weren't as motivated as later on. They were somewhat haphazard events. If you can find a baseball historian that would place a 1880s World Series or the Temple Cup championships of the 1890s on the same footing as one earned by the White Elephants, Gashouse Gang or Murderers Row, please let me know.
I did add to his plaque a few days ago that he had the most postseason innings by any 19th century pitcher, so I agree that it should have been mentioned earlier and was an error on my part. Besides, we know it would be an impossibility for Caruthers to have achieved the same amount of innings during the fifties (unless he pitched in every World Series of the fifties) as he did with the Browns.
Since I am not a dictator here (that would be Joe :-), if a majority of our voters want me to add that Caruthers achievement was better than Ford's, I'll do it. But I seriously doubt that will happen.
Caruthers was MUCH better, and would have given Mickey Mantle a close run for his money with the bat, too!
We'll have to agree to disagree on that, karlmagnus. :-) I will say that, if I had to do it over again, Caruthers would have made the bottom of the top ten of my ballot a few "years" ago (instead of #13), so I think I'm in good standing as a FOBC now. :-)
As for Ford, his record appears substantial enough for the HoM, IMO.
I'll look over and should implement most, if not all, of your suggestions sometime this week.
In my opinion, there's a difference between this type of relief pitcher and the modern type. My opinion right now is that its a bit misleading to list Lefty Grove as a SP/RP? Now a guy like Firpo Marbury also started quite a bit, so I'm not sure how to draw the line. GF greater than GS ? GS less than ).5*G?
Anyhow, just thought I'd mention this before we change most post-1893 pitchers from SP to SP/RP.
Caruthers pitched in the WS of 1885/86/87/89; those appearances are a substantial part of his record (5% of his IP) against (by definition) the strongest NL franchise, at an ERA+, eyeballing it, of about 148 (OK only 7-8, but his teams' record was 15-21, so his .467 beats the teams' .417 handily).
All the niggles about strength of competition must surely fall away; these games are an additional substantial building block in his HOM case. I grant you, his OPS+ batting was only about 90; these were low scoring games (so the ERA+, which compares with his league for the whole year, may be a little inflated and the OPS+ suppressed.) But if you add his WS ERA+ and his WS OPS+ you get 238, only a bit below his lifetime 258, which I would think second in postseason play only to Ruth.
Commissioner's decision is final, but if Caruthers holds the record, shouldn't we say so? It's like Maris in '61 -- by all means put an asterisk, if you must, but the record's still valid.
Ford, incidentally, on second look is probably safely the right side of borderline, although by no means a slam dunk because of his team's strength throughout his career.
He did lose a few years to military service, so some compensation, IMO, is in order. He most certainly would have won over 250 games if he had pitched in 1951 and '52. At this time, I have him as the second best pitcher of the fifties, FWIW.
The strength of the Yankees obviously was an advantage that needs to be corrected against him.
Commissioner's decision is final, but if Caruthers holds the record, shouldn't we say so? It's like Maris in '61 -- by all means put an asterisk, if you must, but the record's still valid.
First of all, I don't believe in asterisks.
Second of all, Matt's mention of Caruther's "record" is the first time I have ever heard of it. I think this is less an error of omission from the record books than that the majority of baseball historians don't put too much weight on the series from the 1880s. Is this fair? I'm not a 100% sure. I do know that if I add to Caruther's plaque that he had the most innings of any pitcher during World Series competition, many people visiting the Plaque Room are going to leave scratching their heads.
In my opinion, there's a difference between this type of relief pitcher and the modern type.
I think it would be misleading, David, if the line was SP/Closer or SP/Fireman for a Brown or Walsh. I also agree their are differences in relief pitching and none of the HoM starters pre-Wilhelm should have RP in bold type, but I think an RP without bold type is appropriate. I don't hold strong opinions on this subject, however.
Total attendence for 1884-1890 NL-AA World Series games:
1884: 3800 (3 games)
1885: 13200 (7 games)
1886: 46000 (6 games)
1887: 51455 (15 games)
1888: 42310 (10 games)
1889: 47666 (9 games)
1890: 13910 (7 games)
Make of that what you will. I'd be inclined to accept these as legitimite World Series, as the NL and AA recognized each other as major leagues. The problem with Caruthers' record for most World Series innings pitched, as I see it, is that this includes games 13 and 15 of the 1887 Series, which he pitched after the series champion was already decided. Much like the issue of whether walks in 1887 should be counted as hits, should these count as championship series games or as exhibition games?
No strong feelings here either, John. Just a general heads up. A large fraction of starting pitchers from 1893-1940 were actually "starter-relievers". Its just the way pitchers were using during this time span. Unlike today, pitchers were available on their "off-days" if needed.
Okay, I'll buy that. How about the Temple Cup games?
The problem with Caruthers' record for most World Series innings pitched, as I see it, is that this includes games 13 and 15 of the 1887 Series, which he pitched after the series champion was already decided. Much like the issue of whether walks in 1887 should be counted as hits, should these count as championship series games or as exhibition games?
I would say probably exhibition games, but I'd like to get some more feedback on this issue before I make up my mind.
A large fraction of starting pitchers from 1893-1940 were actually "starter-relievers". Its just the way pitchers were using during this time span. Unlike today, pitchers were available on their "off-days" if needed.
I'm leaning toward removing the RP on the plaques, but should there be some type of percentage of relief innings pitched (or some other yardstick) so that a pitcher could receive recognition for their relief work?
BTW, I have the Philadelphia Giants for Foster's cap, not the Chicago American Giants. The latter team was obviously more important for Foster as manager and administrator, but the former (I believe) was more important for Foster as a pitcher. Comments?
“The greatest third baseman of the 19th Century. “
can you change that to
arguably the greatest third baseman of the 19th Century
some of us feel it was Williamson, or McGraw ext."
Yest - we elected Sutton over 20 years ago and Williamson/McGraw haven't sniffed election. I think it's safe to say the group as a whole agrees that Sutton was easily the greatest 3B of the 19th Century.
FWIW - I don't like the slashes, even with Bold/not bold. But if that's what everyone wants, so be it, I can live with it. I feel the plaques are a general summary of the high points of the player's career, not a complete and total resume. They should give a quick overview, they don't need to be all-inclusive.
It's now on my "to do" list for this week, yest. Sorry about that. I did get some of your earlier ones though.
1933 Cap Standings:
1. Giants - 8 (Connor, GDavis, Ewing, Keefe, Mathewson, McGinnity, Rusie, Ward)
2T. Braves - 7 (Barnes, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Spalding, Sutton, GWright)
2T. Cubs - 7 (Anson, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, KKelly, Sheckard)
4T. Buffalo Bisons - 4 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson, DWhite)
4T. Phillies - 4 (Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, Thompson)
6. Indians - 3 (Flick, JJackson, Lajoie)
7T. Athletics - 2 (FBaker, Plank)
7T. Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 2 (Keeler, Kelley)
7T. Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
7T. Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
7T. Cleveland Spiders - 2 (Burkett, Young)
7T. Pirates - 2 (Clarke, Wagner)
7T. Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
14T.Cardinals - 1 (Caruthers)
14T.Chicago American Giants - 1 - (PHill)
14T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
14T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
14T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
14T.Dodgers - 1 (Wheat)
14T.Orioles - 1 (Wallace)
14T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
14T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
14T.Red Sox - 1 (JCollins)
14T.Reds - 1 (McPhee)
14T.Tigers - 1 (Crawford)
14T.Twins - 1 (WJohnson)
14T.White Sox - 1 (Walsh)
1933 inductees are the first caps for Twins & Dodgers. A little preview of the 1965 World Series.
Things will probably improve for the Dodgers in from the 50's on, but I doubt they'll ever catch the Giants, who will continue to have some pretty amazing players.
what a bought the poor yankees with none
Yankees don't have anyone yet, but they are the dominant team coming up. (Ruth, DiMaggio, Mantle, etc.)
Dodgers have the great 50's and '60's teams (Snider, Campanella, Koufax, J. Robinson). Any other contenders?
I think the Yanks will give the Giants a run for the money, but the Giants hang on for the victory.
Let's look at this.
Dodger definites will be: J. Robinson, Roy Campanella, Duke Snider, Sandy Koufax, Mike Piazza, Pee Wee Reese (except for Yest :-)
Giant definites are: Willie Mays, Willie McCovey, Barry Bonds, Juan Marichal, Gaylord Perry, Carl Hubbell, Mel Ott
Is Mize a Card or Giant? If you give him WWII credit, I would have to lean toward the Giants. He's a definite either way.
How about Frisch? He's a definite, too.
Wilhelm? I think he's a definite.
Borderline Dodgers are: Don Drysdale (looks good in my book), Maury Wills, Dazzy Vance, Don Sutton, Don Newcombe, Orel Hershiser
Borderline Giants are: Orlando Cepeda, Bill Terry, Will Clark, George Van Haltren, Larry Doyle, Darrell Evans, Monte Irvin, Bobby Bonds
I think Rick is right.
I know, that's the team he spent the most time playing for. But to me, Cepeda is always the cleanup hitter for the '67-'68 Cardinals. We've got some good candidates coming up: Honrsby, Musial, Boyer, Gibson, Ted Simmons, Ozzie. Arguments from opposite ends of the peak-career divide for Dean and Brock. Is McGwire's cap A's or Cardinals? Some that I'm not thinking of at the moment.
J. Robinson, with out including his Negroe league career his career is to short for me(we are just inluding his playing)with his Negroe League career included i'm not sure
Roy Campanella, I agree here
Duke Snider, I agree here but I'm not to sure everybody else does
Sandy Koufax, I agree here but some might think 6 years is too little
Mike Piazza, I'll wait till he retires my opinion could still move on him
Pee Wee Reese (except for Yest :-) how did you know:,)
Giant definites are:
Willie Mays, I agree
Willie McCovey, I agree
Barry Bonds, I wouldn't put him in but were not talking a bought that just yet:,)
Juan Marichal, I agree
Gaylord Perry, I agree some might hold the spitter against him
Carl Hubbell, I agree
Mel Ott I agree
But since you piqued our interest...
Mike Piazza, I'll wait till he retires my opinion could still move on him
Aw, jeez!
Is McGwire's cap A's or Cardinals?
There is no way that McGwire should go in the HoM with a Cards cap.
But to me, Cepeda is always the cleanup hitter for the '67-'68 Cardinals.
Understandable, but he's really a Giant.
But since you piqued our interest...
steroids = boycott
Need proof before I even think of that. Since you can get that large without them, I don't see what the big deal is anyway.
Jackie Robinson is very underrated as a player. Not many 2B can top his 1949-54 peak. I'd vote for him if he was white.
The obvious bonus year of 1946 when he had to play in Montreal. The late start (28) due to the color barrier. Being the first to break the color barrier... That stuff pushes him way up the list, but his actual MLB playing numbers are superb.
We'll talk more about it in 1963. :-)
You know, I wrote this, but thinking about it now, I just can't see the Yanks getting that close to the Giants. With a 8-0 lead already and at least 7 definites (from John's list) for the Giants, I'm having a hard time coming up with enough definites for the Yanks.
Off the top of my head
Definites: Ruth, DiMaggio, Mantle, Gehrig, Berra, Dickey, Ford, Gossage
Maybes: Lazzeri, Hoyt, Ruffing, Rizzuto, Mattingly, Guidry, Nettles
Probably Nots: Maris, Munson
Definites but might go to other teams: Reggie, Winfield
I would point out that if one did "fractional hats" (splitting the hat proportional to the number of seasons as a regular by the player with that team), the Braves are ahead roughly 6.5 to 6.1 over the Giants. The Braves have lost a number of close calls over the years (White, Clarkson, Hamilton, Collins though they did win O'Rourke).
27 other franchises had an all-time great finish his career and get voted in before the Yankees had one. Talk about getting a late start!
They should get an A's and Padres hat respectively, but I know Joe wants a Yank cap on Jackson (he's wrong, of course :-).
This would be the only reason to outlaw steroids. Of course, MLB is more worried about records being destroyed than with health issues.
Again, if I can bulk up without them, except for health concerns, why ban them? It may take a little longer without the 'roids, but I could build myself up to Bond's level. He's no where near Mr. Universe level. Therefore (for HoM purposes), Bonds is in Lip Pike territory when it comes to these whispers. I choose to ignore these whispers until proof rolls in as happened with the Blacksox, Hal Chase, etc.
So far, the Browns/Orioles look like a early non-favorite to. Only Bobby Wallace is in, and after the obvious (B.Robison, C.Ripken, J.Palmer, E.Murray) and those with ambiguous hats (which of Palmiero, F.Robinson, Hoyt Wilhelm, Mussina would go in as an Oriole?) it's quite a drop to the marginals (Sisler, Singleton?)
For Brown/Orioles, how about Ken Williams? Or Harlond Clift? Career's a little short, but a good third baseman isn't easy to find.
Deacon White
Paul Hines
George Gore
Ross Barnes
Jack Glasscock
Hardy Richardson
Ezra Sutton
Joe Start
Cal McVey
Bill Dahlen
Harry Stovey
Charlie Bennett
Grant Johnson
Frank Grant
Sherry Magee
Joe Jackson
Pete Hill
Jimmy Sheckard
Bob Caruthers
Dickey Pearce
Louis Santop
21 of the 59 members of the HoM are not in Cooperstown's hall.
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