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Hall of Merit — A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best Monday, August 02, 2004The Baseball Hall of Merit Plaque Room: Home PageEnter here to see the players that have been immortalized in the Hall of Merit. John Murphy was the curator of the Plaque Room and creator (with Ryan Wagman’s help) of the plaques. As of 2011 the creator of the plaques is theorioleway. David Foss is in charge of the franchise cap standings. Devin McCullen provides the city and state cap standings. yest helps us out double-checking the plaques for accuracy. The whole process is overseen by our commissioner and founder Joe Dimino. For Hall of Meriters A-F, please click here. The current roster (267 total) includes (in alphabetical order for each position): Pitchers (74): Pete Alexander+, Kevin Brown+, Bert Blyleven+, Mordecai Brown, Ray Brown+, Jim Bunning+, Steve Carlton+, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson+, Roger Clemens+**, Stan Coveleski, David Cone, Martín Dihigo+, Don Drysdale+, Dennis Eckersley+, Red Faber+, Bob Feller+, Wes Ferrell, Rollie Fingers, Whitey Ford+, Rube Foster, Willie Foster, Pud Galvin, Bob Gibson+, Tom Glavine+, Rich Gossage+, Clark Griffith, Lefty Grove+*, Carl Hubbell+, Walter Johnson+*, Fergie Jenkins, Randy Johnson+*, Tim Keefe, Sandy Koufax+, Bob Lemon, Ted Lyons, Greg Maddux+**, Juan Marichal+, Pedro Martinez+, Christy Mathewson+**, Joe McGinnity, José Méndez, Mike Mussina, Hal Newhouser+, Kid Nichols+, Phil Niekro, Satchel Paige+, Jim Palmer+, Gaylord Perry+, Billy Pierce, Eddie Plank, Charley Radbourn, Rick Reuschel, Eppa Rixey, Robin Roberts+, Bullet Rogan+, Red Ruffing, Amos Rusie+, Nolan Ryan, Bret Saberhagen, Curt Schilling, Tom Seaver+**, John Smoltz, Warren Spahn+, Al Spalding, Dave Stieb, Don Sutton+, Dazzy Vance, Rube Waddell, Ed Walsh+, Hoyt Wilhelm+, Smokey Joe Williams, Early Wynn and Cy Young+*. Catchers (22): Johnny Bench+, Charlie Bennett, Yogi Berra+, Roger Bresnahan, Roy Campanella+, Gary Carter+, Mickey Cochrane+, Bill Dickey, Buck Ewing+, Carlton Fisk+, Bill Freehan, Josh Gibson+, Gabby Hartnett+, Biz Mackey, Cal McVey, Mike Piazza+, Ivan Rodriguez+, Louis Santop+, Ted Simmons+, Joe Torre, Quincy Trouppe and Deacon White+. First Basemen (23): Cap Anson+, Jeff Bagwell+, Jake Beckley, Dan Brouthers+**, Will Clark+, Roger Connor+, Jimmie Foxx+, Lou Gehrig+*, Hank Greenberg+, Keith Hernandez+, Harmon Killebrew+, Buck Leonard+, Willie McCovey+, Mark McGwire+, Johnny Mize+, Eddie Murray+, Rafael Palmeiro, George Sisler, Joe Start, Mule Suttles, Bill Terry+, Frank Thomas+, and Jim Thome+. Second Basemen (23): Roberto Alomar+, Ross Barnes+, Craig Biggio+, Rod Carew+, Cupid Childs, Eddie Collins, Bobby Doerr, Nellie Fox, Frankie Frisch, Charlie Gehringer+, Joe Gordon, Frank Grant, Bobby Grich+, Billy Herman, Rogers Hornsby+**, Nap Lajoie+, Bid McPhee, Joe Morgan+, Willie Randolph, Hardy Richardson, Jackie Robinson+, Ryne Sandberg+, and Lou Whitaker+. Third Basemen (21): Dick Allen+, Frank Baker+, John Beckwith, Wade Boggs+*, George Brett+**, Ken Boyer, Jimmy Collins, Darrell Evans+, Heinie Groh, Stan Hack, Chipper Jones+*, Eddie Mathews+, John McGraw, Paul Molitor+, Graig Nettles, Brooks Robinson, Scott Rolen+, Ron Santo+, Mike Schmidt+*, Ezra Sutton, and Jud Wilson. Shortstops (26): Luke Appling+, Ernie Banks+, Lou Boudreau, Joe Cronin, Bill Dahlen+, George Davis+, Jack Glasscock, Hughie Jennings, Home Run Johnson, Barry Larkin+, John Henry Lloyd, Dick Lundy, Dobie Moore, Dickey Pearce, Pee Wee Reese+, Cal Ripken, Jr.+**, Joe Sewell, Ozzie Smith+, Alan Trammell+, Arky Vaughan+, Honus Wagner+*, Bobby Wallace, John Ward+, Willie Wells, George Wright and Robin Yount+. Left Fielders (24): Jesse Burkett, Barry Bonds+*, Fred Clarke+, Ed Delahanty+, Goose Goslin, Rickey Henderson+*, Monte Irvin, Charley Jones, Charlie Keller, Joe Kelley, Ralph Kiner, Sherry Magee, Joe Medwick, Minnie Minoso, Stan Musial+*, Tim Raines+, Jimmy Sheckard, Al Simmons+, Willie Stargell+, Harry Stovey, Zack Wheat+, Billy Williams, Ted Williams+*, and Carl Yastrzemski+. Center Fielders (28): Richie Ashburn+, Earl Averill, Cool Papa Bell, Willard Brown, Pete Browning, Max Carey, Oscar Charleston+, Ty Cobb+, Andre Dawson, Joe DiMaggio+*, Larry Doby+, Jim Edmonds, George Gore+, Ken Griffey, Jr.+**, Billy Hamilton+, Pete Hill+, Paul Hines+ , Mickey Mantle+*, Willie Mays+*, Alejandro Oms, Jim O’Rourke+, Lip Pike, Edd Roush, Duke Snider+, Tris Speaker+, Turkey Stearnes+, Cristóbal Torriente and Jimmy Wynn. Right Fielders (25): Hank Aaron+*, Roberto Clemente+, Sam Crawford**, Dwight Evans+, Elmer Flick, Tony Gwynn+, Harry Heilmann, Vladimir Guerrero, Joe Jackson, Reggie Jackson+, Al Kaline+, Willie Keeler, King Kelly+, Mel Ott+, Manny Ramirez+,Frank Robinson+**, Pete Rose, Babe Ruth+*, Gary Sheffield, Enos Slaughter+, Reggie Smith, Sam Thompson, Larry Walker+, Paul Waner+ and Dave Winfield+. Designated Hitters (1): Edgar Martinez+ + first-year candidate honorees (151) * unanimously first on each voter’s ballot (18) ** placed in “elect me” ballot positions on each voter’s ballot, but not unanimously in first (11) 2018 Franchise Cap Standings 1. Giants - 19 (Bonds, Bresnahan, WClark, Connor, GDavis, DaEvans, Ewing, Hubbell, Keefe, Marichal, Mathewson, WMays, McCovey, McGinnity, Ott, GPerry, Rusie, Terry, Ward) 2T. Cubs - 17 (Anson, Banks, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, Griffith, Hack, Hartnett, BiHerman, Jenkins, KKelly, Reuschel, Sandberg, Santo, Sheckard, BiWilliams) 2T. Braves - 17 (Aaron, Barnes, Glavine, Jones, Maddux, Mathews, McVey, Nichols, PNiekro, O'Rourke, Smoltz, Spahn, Spalding, ESutton, Torre, DWhite, GWright) 4. Indians - 14 (Averill, Boudreau, Coveleski, Doby, Feller, WFerrell, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Lemon, JSewell, Speaker, Thome, EWynn) 5T. Yankees - 13 (Berra, Dickey, Dimaggio, WFord, Gehrig, Gordon, Gossage, Keller, Mantle, Nettles, Randolph, Ruffing, Ruth) 5T. Cardinals - 13 (KBoyer, Caruthers, Edmonds, Frisch, BGibson, KHernandez, Hornsby, Medwick, Mize, Musial, TSimmons, Slaughter, OSmith) 7T. Athletics - 12 (FBaker, Cochrane, Eckersley, Fingers, Foxx, Grove, Henderson, McGwire, Plank, ReJackson, ASimmons, Waddell) 7T. Phillies - 12 (Alexander, DAllen, Ashburn, Carlton, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, RRoberts, Rolen, Schilling, Schmidt, Thompson) 9T. Tigers - 11 (Bunning, Cobb, Crawford, Freehan, Gehringer, Greenberg, Heilmann, Kaline, Newhouser, Trammell, Whitaker) 9T. Red Sox - 11 (Boggs, Clemens, JCollins, Doerr, DwEvans, Fisk, Martinez, Ramirez, RSmith, TWilliams, Yastrzemski) 11T. Reds - 10 (Bench, CJones, Groh, Larkin, McPhee, Morgan, Rixey, FRobinson, Rose, Roush) 11T. Dodgers - 10 (Campanella, Drysdale, Koufax, Piazza, PWReese, JRobinson, Snider, DSutton, Vance, Wheat) 11T. White Sox - 10 (Appling, ECollins, Faber, Fox, Lyons, Minoso, BPierce, Thomas, Walsh, Wilhelm) 14. Pirates - 9 (Beckley, Carey, Clarke, Clemente, Kiner, Stargell, Vaughn, Wagner, PWaner) 15. Orioles/Browns - 7 (Murray, Mussina, Palmer, Ripken, BRobinson, Sisler, Wallace) 16. Twins/Senators - 6 (Blyleven, Carew, Cronin, Goslin, WJohnson, Killebrew) 17T. Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 4 (Jennings, Keeler, Kelley, McGraw) 17T. Montreal Expos - 4 (GCarter, Dawson, Guerrero, Raines) 19T. Astros - 3 (Bagwell, Biggio, JWynn) 19T. Buffalo Bisons - 3 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson) 19T. Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente) 19T. Cleveland Spiders - 3 (Burkett, Childs, CYoung) 19T. Homestead Grays - 3 (RBrown, JGibson, BLeonard) 19T. Kansas City Monarchs - 3 (WBrown, DMoore, Rogan) 19T. Saint Louis Stars - 3 (CPBell, Suttles, WWells) 19T Rangers - 3 (K. Brown, Palmeiro, Rodriguez) 27T. Angels - 2 (Grich, NRyan) 27T. Baltimore Black Sox - 2 (Beckwith, JWilson) 27T. Blue Jays - 2 (Alomar, Stieb) 27T. Brewers - 2 (Molitor, Yount) 27T. Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start) 27T. Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop) 27T. Mariners - 2 (Griffey Jr., Martinez) 27T. Mets - 2 (Cone, Seaver) 27T. New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams) 27T. Padres - 2 (Gwynn, Winfield) 27T. Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne) 27T. Royals - 2 (Brett, Saberhagen) 39T. Almendares Blues - 1 (JMendez) 39T. Atlantic City Bacharach Giants - 1 (Lundy) 39T. Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock) 39T. Cleveland Buckeyes - 1 (QTrouppe) 39T. Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant) 39T. Cuban Stars East - 1 (Oms) 39T. Detroit Stars - 1 (Stearnes) 39T. Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett) 39T. Diamondbacks - 1 (RJohnson) 39T. Habana Reds - 1 (Dihigo) 39T. Hilldale Daisies - 1 (Mackey) 39T. Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston) 39T. Louisville Colonels - 1 (Browning) 39T. Marlins - 1 (Sheffield) 39T. Newark Eagles - 1 (Irvin) 39T. Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey) 39T. Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster) 39T. Pittsburgh Crawfords - 1 (Paige) 39T Rockies - 1 (Walker) 39T. Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike) 2018 Cap Standings by City 1. Chicago - 30 (Anson, Appling, Banks, M. Brown, J. Clarkson, E. Collins, Dahlen, Faber, B. Foster, Fox, Gore, Griffith, Hack, Hartnett, Herman, Hill, Jenkins, Kelly, Lyons, Minoso, Pierce, Reuschel, Sandberg, Santo, Sheckard, Thomas, Torriente, Walsh, Wilhelm, Bi. Williams) 2. New York - 29 (Berra, Bresnahan, Cone, Connor, G. Davis, Dickey, DiMaggio, Ewing, Ford, Gehrig, Gordon, Gossage, Hubbell, Keefe, Keller, Lloyd, Mantle, Mathewson, McGinnity, Nettles, Ott, Randolph, Ruffing, Rusie, Ruth, Seaver, Terry, Ward, J. Williams) 3. Philadelphia - 21 (Alexander, Allen, Ashburn, Baker, Carlton, Cochrane, Delahanty, R. Foster, Foxx, Grove, Hamilton, Magee, Plank, Roberts, Rolen, Schilling, Schmidt, A. Simmons, H. Stovey, Thompson, Waddell) 4T. Cleveland - 19 (Averill, Boudreau, Burkett, Childs, Coveleski, Doby, Feller, W. Ferrell, Flick, Glasscock, J. Jackson, Lajoie, Lemon, Sewell, Speaker, Thome, Trouppe, E. Wynn, Young) 4T. St. Louis - 19 (Bell, Boyer, Caruthers, Edmonds, Frisch, B. Gibson, Hernandez, Hornsby, Medwick, Mize, Musial, Pike, T. Simmons, Sisler, Slaughter, Smith, Suttles, Wallace, Wells) 4T. Boston - 19 (Barnes, Boggs, Clemens, J. Collins, Doerr, Dw. Evans, Fisk, Martinez, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Ramirez, Smith, Spalding, E. Sutton, White, T. Williams, G. Wright, Yastrzemski) 7T. Detroit - 13 (Bennett, Bunning, Cobb, Crawford, Freehan, Gehringer, Greenberg, Heilmann, Kaline, Newhouser, Stearnes, Trammell, Whitaker) 7T. Pittsburgh - 13 (Beckley, R. Brown, Carey, Clarke, Clemente, J. Gibson, Kiner, B. Leonard, Paige, Stargell, Vaughan, Wagner, Waner) 9. Baltimore - 11 (Beckwith, Jennings, Keeler, Kelley, McGraw, Murray, Mussina, Palmer, Ripken, B. Robinson, Wilson) 10T. Brooklyn* - 10 (Campanella, G. Johnson, Pearce, Reese, J. Robinson, Santop, Snider, Start, Vance, Wheat) 10T. Cincinnati - 10 (Bench, Groh, Jones, Larkin, McPhee, Morgan, Rixey, F. Robinson, Rose, Roush) 12. San Francisco - 7 (Bonds, Clark, Da. Evans, Marichal, Mays, McCovey, G. Perry) 13. Milwaukee - 6 (Aaron, Mathews, Molitor, Spahn, Torre, Yount) 14T. Kansas City - 5 (Brett, W. Brown, Moore, Rogan, Saberhagen) 14T. Oakland - 5 (Eckersley, Fingers, Henderson, R. Jackson, McGwire) 14T. Atlanta - 5 (Glavine, Jones, Maddux, Niekro, Smoltz) 17T. Los Angeles - 4 (Drysdale, Koufax, Piazza, D. Sutton) 17T. Montreal - 4 (Carter, Dawson, Guerrero, Raines) 19T. Buffalo - 3 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson) 19T. Houston - 3 (Bagwell, Biggio, J. Wynn) 19T. Minneapolis/St. Paul - 3 (Blyleven, Carew, Killebrew) 19T. Washington, DC - 3 (Cronin, Goslin, W. Johnson) 19T. Arlington - 3 (K. Brown, Palmeiro, Rodriguez) 24T. Anaheim* - 2 (Grich, N. Ryan) 24T. N/A - 2 (F. Grant, Oms) 24T. Providence - 2 (Hines, Radbourne) 24T. San Diego – 2 (Gwynn, Winfield) 24T. Seattle – 2 (Griffey Jr., Martinez) 24T. Toronto – 2 (Alomar, Stieb) 30T. Almendares* - 1 (Mendez) 30T. Atlantic City – 1 (Lundy) 30T. Darby, PA* - 1 (Mackey) 30T. Denver - 1 (Walker) 30T. Havana - 1 (Dihigo) 30T. Indianapolis - 1 (Charleston) 30T. Louisville – 1 (Browning) 30T. Miami - 1 (Sheffield) 30T. Newark - 1 (Irvin) 30T. Phoenix - 1 (R.Johnson) * Cities marked with an asterisk could be considered to be part of another city. 2018 Cap Standings by State, Province, Foreign Country (if there is no knowm state or province) or U.S. Capital: 1. New York (42) 2. Pennsylvania (35) 3T. Illinois (29) 3T. Ohio (29) 5. Missouri (24) 6. California (20) 7. Massachusetts (19) 8. Michigan (13) 9. Maryland (11) 10T. Wisconsin (6) 10T. Texas (6) 11T. Georgia (5) 12. Quebec (4) 14T. District of Columbia (3) 14T. Minnesota (3) 16T. Cuba (2) 16T. Indiana (2) 16T. Kentucky (2) 16T. New Jersey (2) 16T. Ontario (2) 16T. Rhode Island (2) 16T. Washington (2) 23T. Arizona (1) 23T. Colorado (1) 23T. Florida (1) 23T. Oregon (1)
All Negro League awards mentioned on the plaques are from John Holway’s The Complete Book of Baseball’s Negro Leagues (Fleet Walker Award = MVP; George Stovey Award = Cy Young Award; Rube Foster Award = Playoff MVP). Primary positions on the plaques will be distinguished from secondary positions on all plaques by bold type. Seasons are calculated this way: (Games Played/Team’s Scheduled Games). Each result is added up for each season to get the final number shown on each plaque. Here are the plaques for the 2013 inductees: Roger Clemens - 2013 - P Mike Piazza - 2013 - C Craig Biggio - 2013 - 2B/C/CF JoeD has the Imperial March Stuck in His Head
Posted: August 02, 2004 at 05:37 PM | 1490 comment(s)
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1. Giants - 9 (Connor, GDavis, Ewing, Keefe, Mathewson, McGinnity, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2T. Braves - 7 (Barnes, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Spalding, ESutton, GWright)
2T. Cubs - 7 (Anson, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, KKelly, Sheckard)
4T. Indians - 5 (Coveleski, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Speaker)
4T. Phillies - 5 (Alexander, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, Thompson)
6. Buffalo Bisons - 4 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson, DWhite)
7T. Athletics - 3 (FBaker, Cochrane, Plank)
7T. Pirates - 3 (Carey, Clarke, Wagner)
7T. Tigers - 3 (Cobb, Crawford, Heilmann)
7T. White Sox - 3 (ECollins, Faber, Walsh)
11T.Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 2 (Keeler, Kelley)
11T.Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
11T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
11T.Cardinals - 2 (Caruthers, Hornsby)
11T.Chicago American Giants - 2 - (PHill, Torriente)
11T.Cleveland Spiders - 2 (Burkett, CYoung)
11T.Dodgers - 2 (Vance, Wheat)
11T.New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
11T.Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
11T.Reds - 2 (Groh, McPhee)
21T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
21T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
21T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
21T.Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
21T.Kansas City Monarchs - 1 (Rogan)
21T.Orioles - 1 (Wallace)
21T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
21T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
21T.Red Sox - 1 (JCollins)
21T.Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
21T.Twins - 1 (WJohnson)
21T.Yankees - 1 (Ruth)
BTW, thank you for the lists every other week, David!
1944 Franchise Cap Standings
1. Giants - 9 (Connor, GDavis, Ewing, Keefe, Mathewson, McGinnity, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2T. Braves - 7 (Barnes, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Spalding, ESutton, GWright)
2T. Cubs - 7 (Anson, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, KKelly, Sheckard)
4T. Indians - 5 (Coveleski, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Speaker)
4T. Phillies - 5 (Alexander, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, Thompson)
6. Buffalo Bisons - 4 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson, DWhite)
7T. Athletics - 3 (FBaker, Cochrane, Plank)
7T. Cardinals - 3 (Caruthers, Frisch, Hornsby)
7T. Pirates - 3 (Carey, Clarke, Wagner)
7T. Tigers - 3 (Cobb, Crawford, Heilmann)
7T. White Sox - 3 (ECollins, Faber, Walsh)
12T.Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 2 (Keeler, Kelley)
12T.Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
12T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
12T.Chicago American Giants - 2 - (PHill, Torriente)
12T.Cleveland Spiders - 2 (Burkett, CYoung)
12T.Dodgers - 2 (Vance, Wheat)
12T.New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
12T.Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
12T.Reds - 2 (Groh, McPhee)
12T.Yankees - 2 (Gehrig, Ruth)
22T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
22T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
22T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
22T.Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
22T.Kansas City Monarchs - 1 (Rogan)
22T.Orioles - 1 (Wallace)
22T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
22T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
22T.Red Sox - 1 (JCollins)
22T.Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
22T.Twins - 1 (WJohnson)
I'd suggest removing the bold from 3B for Frisch. With 1762 games at 2B and 459 at 3B, I think 3B can be considered a secondary position for him over the course of his career.
I'm glad you caught that, Brent. It wasn't my intention to highlight 3B, but only 2B.
In terms of average quality of a team's enshrinees, there's really only one direction to go from here, right?
Chicago American Giants become first NeL team with 3 caps. Senators get another cap, leaving the Browns and the 5-time World Champion Red Sox as the only franchises of the pre-expansion 16 with just one cap.
1945 Franchise Cap Standings
1. Giants - 9 (Connor, GDavis, Ewing, Keefe, Mathewson, McGinnity, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2T. Braves - 7 (Barnes, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Spalding, ESutton, GWright)
2T. Cubs - 7 (Anson, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, KKelly, Sheckard)
4T. Indians - 5 (Coveleski, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Speaker)
4T. Phillies - 5 (Alexander, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, Thompson)
6. Buffalo Bisons - 4 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson, DWhite)
7T. Athletics - 3 (FBaker, Cochrane, Plank)
7T. Cardinals - 3 (Caruthers, Frisch, Hornsby)
7T. Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente)
7T. Pirates - 3 (Carey, Clarke, Wagner)
7T. Tigers - 3 (Cobb, Crawford, Heilmann)
7T. White Sox - 3 (ECollins, Faber, Walsh)
13T.Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 2 (Keeler, Kelley)
13T.Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
13T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
13T.Cleveland Spiders - 2 (Burkett, CYoung)
13T.Dodgers - 2 (Vance, Wheat)
13T.New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
13T.Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
13T.Reds - 2 (Groh, McPhee)
13T.Twins - 2 (Goslin, WJohnson)
13T.Yankees - 2 (Gehrig, Ruth)
24T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
24T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
24T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
24T.Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
24T.Kansas City Monarchs - 1 (Rogan)
24T.Orioles - 1 (Wallace)
24T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
24T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
24T.Red Sox - 1 (JCollins)
24T.Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
John isn't that supposed to be 1945
Yup!
Yeah, I screwed up. :-) I use Billy Hamilton's plaque as my template for the newer plaques (which explains the date).
I'm glad somebody is keeping an eye on me. :-)
1946 Franchise Cap Standings
1. Giants - 9 (Connor, GDavis, Ewing, Keefe, Mathewson, McGinnity, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2T. Braves - 7 (Barnes, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Spalding, ESutton, GWright)
2T. Cubs - 7 (Anson, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, KKelly, Sheckard)
4T. Indians - 5 (Coveleski, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Speaker)
4T. Phillies - 5 (Alexander, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, Thompson)
6T. Athletics - 4 (FBaker, Cochrane, Plank, Simmons)
6T. Buffalo Bisons - 4 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson, DWhite)
8T. Cardinals - 3 (Caruthers, Frisch, Hornsby)
8T. Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente)
8T. Pirates - 3 (Carey, Clarke, Wagner)
8T. Tigers - 3 (Cobb, Crawford, Heilmann)
8T. White Sox - 3 (ECollins, Faber, Walsh)
13T.Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 2 (Keeler, Kelley)
13T.Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
13T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
13T.Cleveland Spiders - 2 (Burkett, CYoung)
13T.Dodgers - 2 (Vance, Wheat)
13T.New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
13T.Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
13T.Reds - 2 (Groh, McPhee)
13T.Twins - 2 (Goslin, WJohnson)
13T.Yankees - 2 (Gehrig, Ruth)
24T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
24T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
24T.Detroit Stars - 1 (Stearnes)
24T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
24T.Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
24T.Kansas City Monarchs - 1 (Rogan)
24T.Orioles - 1 (Wallace)
24T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
24T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
24T.Red Sox - 1 (JCollins)
24T.Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
1947 Franchise Cap Standings
1. Giants - 9 (Connor, GDavis, Ewing, Keefe, Mathewson, McGinnity, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2. Cubs - 8 (Anson, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, Hartnett, KKelly, Sheckard)
3. Braves - 7 (Barnes, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Spalding, ESutton, GWright)
4T. Athletics - 5 (FBaker, Cochrane, Grove, Plank, Simmons)
4T. Indians - 5 (Coveleski, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Speaker)
4T. Phillies - 5 (Alexander, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, Thompson)
7. Buffalo Bisons - 4 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson, DWhite)
8T. Cardinals - 3 (Caruthers, Frisch, Hornsby)
8T. Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente)
8T. Pirates - 3 (Carey, Clarke, Wagner)
8T. Tigers - 3 (Cobb, Crawford, Heilmann)
8T. White Sox - 3 (ECollins, Faber, Walsh)
13T.Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 2 (Keeler, Kelley)
13T.Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
13T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
13T.Cleveland Spiders - 2 (Burkett, CYoung)
13T.Dodgers - 2 (Vance, Wheat)
13T.New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
13T.Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
13T.Reds - 2 (Groh, McPhee)
13T.Twins - 2 (Goslin, WJohnson)
13T.Yankees - 2 (Gehrig, Ruth)
24T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
24T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
24T.Detroit Stars - 1 (Stearnes)
24T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
24T.Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
24T.Kansas City Monarchs - 1 (Rogan)
24T.Orioles - 1 (Wallace)
24T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
24T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
24T.Red Sox - 1 (JCollins)
24T.Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
what's this doing on Lefty Grove's plaque?
It's called a mistake, yest. :-)
That was Simmons info. I used his plaque as my template, but I missed that data for deletion.
This active club enjoyed the services of Cy Young, Tris Speaker or Babe Ruth in every aught or teen season.
--
There is no good place for me to publish these research findings (cough, cough) so let it be here. The 1920s count is a big surprise to me.
Number of pitchers among Win Shares leaders by decade
Years Top50 Top10
1880s - 21 - 10
1890s - 18 - 4
1900s - 20 - 4
1910s - 12 - 2
1920s - 19 - 3 !
1930s - 12 - 2
1940s - _9 - 1
1950s - _7 - 2
1960s - _6 - 0
1970s - _9 - 1
1980s - _3 - 0 (29 stieb, 44 morris, 46 quisenberry)
1990s - _7 - 1
The threshold number of Win Shares in-decade ranges from 125 in the 1940s to 157 in the 1890s.
Who is a pitcher? My call. Dave Foutz but not Monte Ward.
How about on the Pitcher thread (which can be found with the Positional threads), Paul?
maybe you should add RF (he played 170 games there)to Goose Goslin's plaque
yest, I did a few plaques. Hope to do more in the future.
1. Giants - 9 (Connor, GDavis, Ewing, Keefe, Mathewson, McGinnity, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2. Cubs - 8 (Anson, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, Hartnett, KKelly, Sheckard)
3. Braves - 7 (Barnes, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Spalding, ESutton, GWright)
4T. Athletics - 5 (FBaker, Cochrane, Grove, Plank, Simmons)
4T. Indians - 5 (Coveleski, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Speaker)
4T. Phillies - 5 (Alexander, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, Thompson)
7T. Buffalo Bisons - 4 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson, DWhite)
7T. Tigers - 4 (Cobb, Crawford, Gehringer, Heilmann)
9T. Cardinals - 3 (Caruthers, Frisch, Hornsby)
9T. Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente)
9T. Pirates - 3 (Carey, Clarke, Wagner)
9T. White Sox - 3 (ECollins, Faber, Walsh)
13T.Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 2 (Keeler, Kelley)
13T.Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
13T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
13T.Cleveland Spiders - 2 (Burkett, CYoung)
13T.Dodgers - 2 (Vance, Wheat)
13T.New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
13T.Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
13T.Reds - 2 (Groh, McPhee)
13T.Twins - 2 (Goslin, WJohnson)
13T.Yankees - 2 (Gehrig, Ruth)
23T.Baltimore Black Sox - 1 (JWilson)
23T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
23T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
23T.Detroit Stars - 1 (Stearnes)
23T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
23T.Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
23T.Kansas City Monarchs - 1 (Rogan)
23T.Orioles - 1 (Wallace)
23T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
23T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
23T.Red Sox - 1 (JCollins)
23T.Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
Willie Keeler has the record I'm assuming you mean post 1900
1949 Franchise Cap Standings
1. Giants - 10 (Connor, GDavis, Ewing, Hubbell, Keefe, Mathewson, McGinnity, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2. Cubs - 8 (Anson, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, Hartnett, KKelly, Sheckard)
3. Braves - 7 (Barnes, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Spalding, ESutton, GWright)
4T. Athletics - 5 (FBaker, Cochrane, Grove, Plank, Simmons)
4T. Indians - 5 (Coveleski, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Speaker)
4T. Phillies - 5 (Alexander, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, Thompson)
7T. Buffalo Bisons - 4 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson, DWhite)
7T. Tigers - 4 (Cobb, Crawford, Gehringer, Heilmann)
7T. White Sox - 4 (ECollins, Faber, Lyons, Walsh)
10T.Cardinals - 3 (Caruthers, Frisch, Hornsby)
10T.Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente)
10T.Pirates - 3 (Carey, Clarke, Wagner)
13T.Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 2 (Keeler, Kelley)
13T.Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
13T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
13T.Cleveland Spiders - 2 (Burkett, CYoung)
13T.Dodgers - 2 (Vance, Wheat)
13T.New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
13T.Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
13T.Reds - 2 (Groh, McPhee)
13T.Twins - 2 (Goslin, WJohnson)
13T.Yankees - 2 (Gehrig, Ruth)
23T.Baltimore Black Sox - 1 (JWilson)
23T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
23T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
23T.Detroit Stars - 1 (Stearnes)
23T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
23T.Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
23T.Kansas City Monarchs - 1 (Rogan)
23T.Orioles - 1 (Wallace)
23T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
23T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
23T.Red Sox - 1 (JCollins)
23T.Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
1. Giants - 10 (Connor, GDavis, Ewing, Hubbell, Keefe, Mathewson, McGinnity, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2. Cubs - 8 (Anson, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, Hartnett, KKelly, Sheckard)
3. Braves - 7 (Barnes, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Spalding, ESutton, GWright)
4T. Athletics - 5 (FBaker, Cochrane, Grove, Plank, Simmons)
4T. Indians - 5 (Coveleski, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Speaker)
4T. Phillies - 5 (Alexander, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, Thompson)
7T. Buffalo Bisons - 4 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson, DWhite)
7T. Pirates - 4 (Carey, Clarke, Wagner, PWaner)
7T. Tigers - 4 (Cobb, Crawford, Gehringer, Heilmann)
7T. White Sox - 4 (ECollins, Faber, Lyons, Walsh)
11T.Cardinals - 3 (Caruthers, Frisch, Hornsby)
11T.Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente)
13T.Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 2 (Keeler, Kelley)
13T.Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
13T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
13T.Cleveland Spiders - 2 (Burkett, CYoung)
13T.Dodgers - 2 (Vance, Wheat)
13T.New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
13T.Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
13T.Reds - 2 (Groh, McPhee)
13T.Twins - 2 (Goslin, WJohnson)
13T.Yankees - 2 (Gehrig, Ruth)
23T.Baltimore Black Sox - 1 (JWilson)
23T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
23T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
23T.Cuban Stars - 1 (Dihigo)
23T.Detroit Stars - 1 (Stearnes)
23T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
23T.Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
23T.Kansas City Monarchs - 1 (Rogan)
23T.Orioles - 1 (Wallace)
23T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
23T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
23T.Red Sox - 1 (JCollins)
23T.Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
According to Riley, it was of minor league status (the same thing with Santo Domingo in '37). Can anyone verify that?
The Mexican League play began in 1938 I believe
I guess we generally don't list winter league teams, but playing in Cuba was such an important part of his career that I think it deserves mentioning. (If you decide you would like to list the Cuban teams, I can put together a list.) Maybe a couple of sentences like the following:
Martín Dihigo also played winter baseball for 22 years in the Cuban League for 22 years, where he holds the all-time records for career wins and complete games. He led the Cuban League in many hitting and pitching categories many times and received 4 MVP awards. (Note - they were official awards, I believe given by writers, and began in 1927-28. Dihigo was the first winner.)
Also, it might be worth mentioning that he led the Mexican League in both batting average and pitching percentage in 1938, and performed the same feat in Cuba in 1935-36.
Also, I think we've decided to show accent marks in the names of Latin American players, so there should be an accent over the "i" in Martín.
That's a definite mistake. I'll have that corrected right away.
If Gavvy Cravath winds up getting elected, it will obviously be in part because of the numbers he put up in the minor leagues. Does it make sense, then, to turn around and not mention it on his plaque?
I know this would cause complications for you, and I'm not going to make a federal case out of it, but I'd rather see the teams listed, with some sort of minor-league designation, than have the gaps in the record.
Before we leave Dihigo, I thought I'd mention that the "Negro Leagues in a Box" section of the NBJHBA lists Dihigo and Jelly Gardner as having the "best outfield arm." (Torriente is also mentioned as a possible candidate.)
But should we? Roberto Clemente is now Robert Clemente Walker on his HOF plaque, so maybe we should go with the three names instead of two.
I know this would cause complications for you, and I'm not going to make a federal case out of it, but I'd rather see the teams listed, with some sort of minor-league designation, than have the gaps in the record.
I agree. I'll fix it up tomorrow.
I'll also follow Brent's suggestion and add Dihigo's Cuban years. That was an oversight of mine.
BTW, I'm not the final arbiter, Devin. Joe is. :-)
I didn't know that about Clemente. My Spanish language is of the 40-year-ago high school variety, and I don't have much knowledge of Latin American culture other than having read a couple of books, so I'd recommend that someone more knowledgeable than me give their opinion.
Maybe Eric Enders could help us out in this department.
BTW, should his cap be the Cuban Stars (East)? Are there championship teams that I can add outside of NeL baseball? Besides his first Cuban MVP in 1927, what were the other years that he was honored?
Thanks for your help, guys!
...and he has! He says the mother's maiden name is comparable to a middle name, so I won't add it to Dihigo's or Torriente's plaques.
From Cuba, Dihigo played for the following championship teams:
1926-27 - Habana
1927-28 - Habana
1928-29 - Habana
1930 fall (special season) - Almendares
1935-36 - Santa Clara
1936-37 - Marianao
1940-41 - Habana
1943-44 - Habana
1945-46 - Cienfuegos
Besides his first Cuban MVP in 1927, what were the other years that he was honored?
Dihigo won MVPs for 1927-28, 1935-36, 1936-37, 1941-42. For a listing of other Cuban League leading categories, see the Dihigo thread # 102.
1937: Aguila (played in Veracruz)
1938: Aguila (Veracruz)
1940: Azules de Veracruz (confusingly enough, this team actually played in Mexico City)
1942: Union Laguna (Torreon)
We do. Whichever team he had the most value at, that's the team cap he gets. There's no way in this universe that you can argue that Foxx or Cronin had more value as a Bosox than with the A's or the Sentaors.
SOX have now been ripped off on Young, Speaker, Ruth, Foxx and Cronin.
I hope this is hyperbole or joking around, because there's no reason for me to rip off anybody's favorite team here.
That's an objective rule? That's looks like changing the goal posts to me, karlmagnus. :-)
The idea that Ruth would have anything other than a Yankee cap is laughable.
The Red Sox have indeed lost their share of these races, though. They are tied with the Browns/Orioles for last place amongst the "original sixteen". If someone posted a list with "fractional caps" the Sox would fare much better.
It wasn't as clear cut as Foxx, granted, but he was definitely the better player as a Senator, plus had the pennant.
1951 Franchise Cap Standings
1. Giants - 10 (Connor, GDavis, Ewing, Hubbell, Keefe, Mathewson, McGinnity, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2. Cubs - 8 (Anson, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, Hartnett, KKelly, Sheckard)
3. Braves - 7 (Barnes, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Spalding, ESutton, GWright)
4. Athletics - 6 (FBaker, Cochrane, Foxx, Grove, Plank, Simmons)
5T. Indians - 5 (Coveleski, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Speaker)
5T. Phillies - 5 (Alexander, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, Thompson)
7T. Buffalo Bisons - 4 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson, DWhite)
7T. Pirates - 4 (Carey, Clarke, Wagner, PWaner)
7T. Tigers - 4 (Cobb, Crawford, Gehringer, Heilmann)
7T. White Sox - 4 (ECollins, Faber, Lyons, Walsh)
11T.Cardinals - 3 (Caruthers, Frisch, Hornsby)
11T.Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente)
11T.Twins - 3 (Cronin, Goslin, WJohnson)
14T.Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 2 (Keeler, Kelley)
14T.Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
14T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
14T.Cleveland Spiders - 2 (Burkett, CYoung)
14T.Dodgers - 2 (Vance, Wheat)
14T.New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
14T.Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
14T.Reds - 2 (Groh, McPhee)
14T.Yankees - 2 (Gehrig, Ruth)
23T.Baltimore Black Sox - 1 (JWilson)
23T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
23T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
23T.Cuban Stars - 1 (Dihigo)
23T.Detroit Stars - 1 (Stearnes)
23T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
23T.Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
23T.Kansas City Monarchs - 1 (Rogan)
23T.Orioles - 1 (Wallace)
23T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
23T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
23T.Red Sox - 1 (JCollins)
23T.Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
But that has absolutely zip to do with his HoM plaque.
Hell, if I wanted to be even sillier than you, I could give him a cap for every AL team that was in existence while he was AL president. :-)
Indeed, several people have asked why Spalding does not have a Chicago cap because he ran the team for so many years, but he only played there for 2 years (1 year pitching).
I'm letting you know right now that this is starting to piss me off. Point to one decison of mine (some of the earlier caps were Joe's decisions) where the cap I gave a player is not where he had the most value as a player. You may not like that standard, but it's a standard that I have strictly adhered to.
Cronin came up with the Pirates, so they have a claim, but played 50 games for them, 940 for Washington and 1134 for Boston.
Great, then you have the audacity to claim a cap for Ruth? Did Ruth play more games in Boston or have more pennants? Wait, he started his career with Boston. OK, in that case, Cronin gets a Pirate cap. Happy?
I am not being unfriendly, but object to being called silly when I make a serious point in a humorous way.
However, there has been multiple standards applied though (by different administrators at different times). By value, Deacon White is definitely a Brave (it's not close). The Buffalo hat was at his request, and it's clear that if the same standard was applied here, Cronin would be a Red Sock.
I used "silly" after you posted #36 and #37 and mentioned giving Red Sox caps to all of the old Red Stockings and Old Hoss Radbourn (unless you were serious?) I also used an emoticon after my sentence so that you would know I was in jest. Obviously, you misread my sentiment.
But I object to your post #30 that started this whole thing. Was that fair, karlmagnus? Couldn't you have expressed your opinion a little bit better? With all of your exclamations, somebody would have thought I was selling your family into slavery.
BTW, are their any caps that you disagree with that should be for another team besides the Bosox? I'm trying to be fair to everyone's favorite team, so that's why I picked the standard of finding the team that the player had the most value with.
If that was your standard, I would be; Sox would then get Ruth and Speaker.
No, value means what he did on the field for his team. Does anyone here actually think that Ruth contributed more on the field as a Red Sox than as a Yankee? I suspect you're the only one, karlmagnus (maybe in the universe :-).
If we talk World Series/pennants
That's a different standard now. I only use pennants or World Series if it's close.
However, there has been multiple standards applied though (by different administrators at different times). By value, Deacon White is definitely a Brave (it's not close). The Buffalo hat was at his request, and it's clear that if the same standard was applied here, Cronin would be a Red Sock.
I disagreed with that at the time, too. I didn't think it was fair to the Braves who derived the most value from his services. I think that was the only one since '98 that I disagreed with, BTW.
But how do we handle a player's wishes. Wade Bogg's wishes were to have a Tampa Bay Devils cap, but I doubt anyone here would suggest that.
Many old Philadelphia A's didn't want a cap from that team because of Mack, but is that fair to fans of that franchise? Is it historically correct?
But if the electorate wants a different standard, I'm fine with that. Make your opinions known. But it can't be "well, we give the cap for the team that he started with (especially if it's my team), unless he played more games with the team that I like" floating standard. It has to be consistent and fair, but not a way to get more caps for your favorite team.
John, a couple of small things for Bullet Rogan: he also led in strikeouts for 1921 and 1923, and wins in 1923. Holway does list the Monarchs with the best record in 1931, but notes that St. Louis officially won the pennant. In 1937, on the other hand, Cincinnati is listed with the best overall record, but the Monarchs were awarded the first-half title, with no second-half champion known--and I think the Monarchs are usually considered the pennant winner for that year. So I'd say list 1937 instead of 1931 as one of his championship teams.
Also, his 1924/25 Almendares team won the Cuban League pennant (the only year Rogan played in Cuba).
If it matters he played in the East-West All-Star Game in 1936, which gives him one actual all-star appearance in addition to his virtual ones.
Thanks for the heads up, Gary. I'll have it corrected sometime this week.
Sorry about #30; it was meant to be a jocular squawk, but it obviously came out wrong.
But I'm not giving Cronin the cap for '33. I've mentioned I use pennants only as a tiebreaker. The pennant is only icing on the cake for him, as far as I'm concerned.
As for Young, he was the better player in Cleveland. That's why he is wearing that cap.
If WARP happens currently to give Cronin marginally to Washington, so what? -- they change it pretty well once a month.
I was actually using Win Shares. It's close, but he was more durable, plus a better hitter and defender, in DC. He did more there than in Boston with less PA. At any rate, I haven't heard anyone here suggest it's a slam dunk for Boston.
The reality was that he played much more for Boston and devoted the great majority of his career to the fortunes of the Boston club.
Personally, he could have played 400 years at Boston, but if he was a better player in Washington, then he should be wearing the latter team's cap, IMO. Of course, if he played 400 years in Beantown, I'd be shocked if he didn't have the greater value there. :-D
As for his career as a GM and manager, that should play no part as to what cap he wears. The only thing that we are constitutionally required to do is to look at what he did as a player, nothing more.
But if the majority of the electorate can make a compelling and fair case that Cronin should belong with a Boston cap, I'll change it.
Sorry about #30; it was meant to be a jocular squawk, but it obviously came out wrong.
No problem. Next time, IM me. I can handle it a hundred times better if I'm being ambushed in front of only one person than the whole electorate. :-)
Wouldn't it be more interesting to get a sense of which franchises had a lot of players?
If a guy played 45 pct of his games with the Red Sox, you give them 45 pts. If he played 35 pct with the Senators, they get 35 pts. And so on, maybe not counting below 10 pct if it seems tedious.
That way no one gets stuck on the 'all or nothing' conundrum of 'capping.'
If a guy played 45 pct of his games with the Red Sox, you give them 45 pts. If he played 35 pct with the Senators, they get 35 pts. And so on, maybe not counting below 10 pct if it seems tedious.
That way no one gets stuck on the 'all or nothing' conundrum of 'capping.'
I have no problem with that, Howie, except I would still go with value over just playing time. Carlton Fisk played far more games as a Chisox, but he was more valuable as a Bosox (and he played on a pennant winner). Therefore, he should get more credit for his Boston years, IMO (take that, karlmagnus! :-D)
If a guy played 45 pct of his games with the Red Sox, you give them 45 pts. If he played 35 pct with the Senators, they get 35 pts. And so on, maybe not counting below 10 pct if it seems tedious.
Someone posted this once 20-30 "years" ago. I don't know exactly where that post is anymore.
If I'm still doing this, Fisk will be wearing a Boston cap. I promise. :-)
:-))
Re: Hats.
I would point out that if one did "fractional hats" (splitting the hat proportional to the number of seasons as a regular by the player with that team), the Braves are ahead roughly 6.5 to 6.1 over the Giants. The Braves have lost a number of close calls over the years (White, Clarkson, Hamilton, Collins though they did win O'Rourke).
Whoops... no one has done the whole thing. This was the post I was remembering. Maybe I'll try some WS-weighted ranking some rainy saturday or something. Would have to improvise with the NeL, NA, and pre-NA, though.
Without a doubt. Not even close.
If Speaker hadn't won the 1920WS with Cleveland I'd be arguing about him based on these precedents, but he did so I have to conclude regretfully that I don't have a case.
But I gave Speaker the Cleveland cap because he just had much more value there. He played a many more games and was still as great there as he was at Boston (unlike Cronin and Young in Boston or Fisk in Chicago). I didn't even need to look at pennants or WS for a tiebreaker.
(presume you'd give Stephens to St Louis anyway, so not worth a big battle!)
It's closer than you would think, but I would give it to St. Louis.
Boggs gets the Bosox cap easily. Same goes for Luis.
I made those corrections to Rogan's plaque for you.
If you spot any other errors or errors of omission, please let me know. Holway and Riley are sometimes contradictory, so it's hard trying to ascertain what is correct or not.
I'll have to expand the Plaque Room again because of lack of space sometime this week.
1952 Franchise Cap Standings
1. Giants - 11 (Connor, GDavis, Ewing, Hubbell, Keefe, Mathewson, McGinnity, Ott, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2. Cubs - 8 (Anson, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, Hartnett, KKelly, Sheckard)
3. Braves - 7 (Barnes, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Spalding, ESutton, GWright)
4. Athletics - 6 (FBaker, Cochrane, Foxx, Grove, Plank, Simmons)
5T. Indians - 5 (Coveleski, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Speaker)
5T. Phillies - 5 (Alexander, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, Thompson)
7T. Buffalo Bisons - 4 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson, DWhite)
7T. Pirates - 4 (Carey, Clarke, Wagner, PWaner)
7T. Tigers - 4 (Cobb, Crawford, Gehringer, Heilmann)
7T. White Sox - 4 (ECollins, Faber, Lyons, Walsh)
11T.Cardinals - 3 (Caruthers, Frisch, Hornsby)
11T.Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente)
11T.Twins - 3 (Cronin, Goslin, WJohnson)
14T.Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 2 (Keeler, Kelley)
14T.Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
14T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
14T.Cleveland Spiders - 2 (Burkett, CYoung)
14T.Dodgers - 2 (Vance, Wheat)
14T.New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
14T.Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
14T.Reds - 2 (Groh, McPhee)
14T.Yankees - 2 (Gehrig, Ruth)
23T.Baltimore Black Sox - 1 (JWilson)
23T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
23T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
23T.Cuban Stars - 1 (Dihigo)
23T.Detroit Stars - 1 (Stearnes)
23T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
23T.Homestead Grays - 1 (JGibson)
23T.Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
23T.Kansas City Monarchs - 1 (Rogan)
23T.Orioles - 1 (Wallace)
23T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
23T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
23T.Red Sox - 1 (JCollins)
23T.Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
Only 98 are listed. I double-checked by copying the list to a text editor and counting the commas automatically: 96.
Bill Terry is out of alphabetical order.
Mel Ott is missing from the big bold list at the top.
I double-checked the cap list and there are 99 of those.
Corrected. Thanks!
One would think such a disproportionate share of HoM level talent would have suggested that the Giants win many more WS than the actually did.
Anyone care to speculate why that is?
A few factors occurring here.
-- The Yankees got a very late start. They were the last of the original 16 to get a cap. No random star players before Ruth.
-- The Giants only won two pennants in the 19th century despite having all-star-like rosters through much of the 1880s. They also lost 4 WS in the 1910s.
-- With Mize most likely a Cardinal, Dickey/Dimaggio should close the gap a bit. It will be 5-4 in the 20th century after that.
I love seeing the short-lived Buffalo Bisons high up on the list (and they could have easily added O'Rourke as well!). I consider it a rite of passage when an established franchise finally passes them. The Bisons never finished higher than 3rd.
The Phillies are up there as well and don't have a storied history as well. Their famed HOM outfield never went never finished higher than 3rd.
There is also a definite time-lag to the process. Players make their maximal impact contributions around age 26-30 (usually), but then aren't eligible for election until 15-20 years later. We are just now electing the top stars from the championship teams of the 30's. The top stars of the 1952 Yankees won't hit the ballot until the late 60's/early 70's.
versus 7 WS wins
(Nitpick alert ;-) Only 6. Won in 1888, 1889, 1905, 1921, 1922, 1933. Lost in 1911, 1912, 1913, 1917, 1923, 1924, 1936, 1937, 1951 on the field; refused to play in 1904 so the Red Sox successfully "defended" their title.
1953 Franchise Cap Standings
1. Giants - 11 (Connor, GDavis, Ewing, Hubbell, Keefe, Mathewson, McGinnity, Ott, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2. Cubs - 8 (Anson, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, Hartnett, KKelly, Sheckard)
3. Braves - 7 (Barnes, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Spalding, ESutton, GWright)
4. Athletics - 6 (FBaker, Cochrane, Foxx, Grove, Plank, Simmons)
5T. Indians - 5 (Coveleski, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Speaker)
5T. Phillies - 5 (Alexander, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, Thompson)
5T. Tigers - 5 (Cobb, Crawford, Gehringer, Greenberg, Heilmann)
8T. Buffalo Bisons - 4 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson, DWhite)
8T. Pirates - 4 (Carey, Clarke, Wagner, PWaner)
8T. White Sox - 4 (ECollins, Faber, Lyons, Walsh)
11T.Cardinals - 3 (Caruthers, Frisch, Hornsby)
11T.Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente)
11T.Twins - 3 (Cronin, Goslin, WJohnson)
11T.Yankees - 3 (Dickey, Gehrig, Ruth)
15T.Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 2 (Keeler, Kelley)
15T.Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
15T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
15T.Cleveland Spiders - 2 (Burkett, CYoung)
15T.Dodgers - 2 (Vance, Wheat)
15T.New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
15T.Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
15T.Reds - 2 (Groh, McPhee)
23T.Baltimore Black Sox - 1 (JWilson)
23T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
23T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
23T.Cuban Stars - 1 (Dihigo)
23T.Detroit Stars - 1 (Stearnes)
23T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
23T.Homestead Grays - 1 (JGibson)
23T.Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
23T.Kansas City Monarchs - 1 (Rogan)
23T.Orioles - 1 (Wallace)
23T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
23T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
23T.Red Sox - 1 (JCollins)
23T.Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
BTW, if anyone can point out what years Willie Wells (or any other Negro Leaguer) played in the East-West game, I would greatly appreciate it.
1954 Franchise Cap Standings
1. Giants - 11 (Connor, GDavis, Ewing, Hubbell, Keefe, Mathewson, McGinnity, Ott, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2. Cubs - 8 (Anson, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, Hartnett, KKelly, Sheckard)
3. Braves - 7 (Barnes, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Spalding, ESutton, GWright)
4. Athletics - 6 (FBaker, Cochrane, Foxx, Grove, Plank, Simmons)
5T. Indians - 5 (Coveleski, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Speaker)
5T. Phillies - 5 (Alexander, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, Thompson)
5T. Pirates - 5 (Carey, Clarke, Vaughn, Wagner, PWaner)
5T. Tigers - 5 (Cobb, Crawford, Gehringer, Greenberg, Heilmann)
9T. Buffalo Bisons - 4 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson, DWhite)
9T. White Sox - 4 (ECollins, Faber, Lyons, Walsh)
11T.Cardinals - 3 (Caruthers, Frisch, Hornsby)
11T.Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente)
11T.Twins - 3 (Cronin, Goslin, WJohnson)
11T.Yankees - 3 (Dickey, Gehrig, Ruth)
15T.Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 2 (Keeler, Kelley)
15T.Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
15T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
15T.Cleveland Spiders - 2 (Burkett, CYoung)
15T.Dodgers - 2 (Vance, Wheat)
15T.New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
15T.Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
15T.Reds - 2 (Groh, McPhee)
23T.Baltimore Black Sox - 1 (JWilson)
23T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
23T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
23T.Cuban Stars - 1 (Dihigo)
23T.Detroit Stars - 1 (Stearnes)
23T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
23T.Homestead Grays - 1 (JGibson)
23T.Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
23T.Kansas City Monarchs - 1 (Rogan)
23T.Orioles - 1 (Wallace)
23T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
23T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
23T.Red Sox - 1 (JCollins)
23T.Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
23T.Saint Louis Stars - 1 (WWells)
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