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— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Monday, October 24, 2005

Virgil Trucks

Eligible in 1964.

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: October 24, 2005 at 02:40 AM | 8 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: October 29, 2005 at 03:45 PM (#1710430)
It's a good thing that Rube Waddell wasn't a teammate. He would have been always tagging along. :-)
   2. Dag Nabbit: Sockless Psychopath Posted: October 29, 2005 at 03:56 PM (#1710448)
   3. OCF Posted: October 29, 2005 at 07:50 PM (#1710733)
RA+ PythPat 173-125. Quite similar in value to Dizzy Trout.
   4. JoeD has the Imperial March Stuck in His Head Posted: November 14, 2005 at 11:24 PM (#1731892)
I love this guy after plugging him in my spreadsheet. Giving him war credit for 1944-45 puts him at 236-126 in translated W-L and 3141 translated IP at a 3.89 DERA is a pretty darn valuable pitcher.

I'm ranking him above both Lemon and Ferrell this week, I hope he wasn't overlooked by the group. Please let me know if I'm botching something here, like he broke his arm in 1943 and that's why he didn't pitch in 1944-45, as opposed to the war or something.

Using his regular numbers, and giving him credit for 1944-45 at 1942-43-46 levels, you've got 205-153, a 116 ERA+ (actually a little higher since he was better than this in 2 of 3 of the base years and 113 in the other) and 3077 IP. Never had that huge year, but I really like what I see here. Convince me this is a mistake, or bump him up!
   5. Paul Wendt Posted: November 14, 2005 at 11:56 PM (#1731925)
two no-hitters during a 5-19 season?

What's up with his last three seasons in Detroit? Or with his 1953-1954 comeback, from the other perspective? age 36 and 37, career 1st and tie-2nd in wins, 2nd and 3rd in innings, 3rd and 4th in ERA+; overall his 2nd and 3rd best seasons.

Trout and Lemon?

durability - Trout is low measured by innings per season, perhaps very low by complete games. Eg, give Trout his 1943&46;-average in 1944 and in 1945, yielding about 3000 innings in 16 seasons. Lemon about 2700 in 13 seasons. (Here I have dropped the seasons with fewer than 100 innings at career beginning or end, which happens to be first season and last season for each.)

ERA+ - Trout is close to Lemon: 116 v 119, five at 130 to 148 v five at 134 to 144 (Trout in almost 1100 innings, Lemon in almost 1400). "Close" but simply "equal" is generous to Trucks.

batting - Trucks weak, Lemon strong

Joe, it's your foibled spreadsheet :-)
   6. Chris Cobb Posted: November 15, 2005 at 02:03 AM (#1732088)
I agree with Paul that in-season durability and lack of hitting put a very significant drag on Trucks' case. He's like Dutch Leonard (II) in these respects. Both have very nice career DERAs and nice career innings-pitched totals, but their IP are only a little higher than the totals of the peak pitchers, and they trail far behind the real innings-eaters like Ruffing, Newsom (my pick for most seriously overlooked pitching candidate), and (recently retired) Early Wynn.
   7. JoeD has the Imperial March Stuck in His Head Posted: November 17, 2005 at 03:36 AM (#1735146)
Was it in-season durability, or usage? He relieved an awful lot, despite pitching well.

His K/BB and K/9 are outstanding for his era, his top 10 in both just about every year. Not that that means anything in and of itself, but that's certainly an idicator in the right direction.

I'll look at him more closely next time, but I think the war is killing him. Add 30-18 and 400 IP to that record, and it's surely someone that should have got more than 1 vote, especially with a few voters having heavy pitching ballots.

I think some people may have just looked at the record quick, saw 177-135 and moved on, without taking a closer look. We have a lot of guys to look at, not knocking anyone (you need to filter them somehow), I'm just urging everyone to take another look. With war credit, you've got a 15-year career and a 207-153 record and a virtual Cy Young Award (1953).

Translated W-L from Prospectus says he should have had 25 more wins and 25 fewer losses. Even if that's twice what they adjustment should be, you are looking at 220-140.
   8. Chris Cobb Posted: November 17, 2005 at 04:09 AM (#1735165)
If you drop off Lemon's first and last seasons, when he was primarily a reliever, 83% of his appearances are starts. If you drop off Truck's last three seasons, when he was primarily a reliever, 75% of his appearances are starts. I don't see convincing evidence that Truck's usage in relief would necessarily have a downward effect on his IP. If one posits that it would have such an effect, then one would also need to posit that it has a downward effect on his ERA.

But I will take a closer look at him as well as at Murry Dickson before voting in '65.

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