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1. Win one for Agrippa (haplo53) Posted: June 19, 2008 at 05:10 PM (#2825978)

In one of today's articles, Willie mentions last year's "so-called collapse."

2. Famous Original Joe C Posted: June 19, 2008 at 05:31 PM (#2825997)

He thinks second basemen are the cornerstone to a great baseball team.

Can you imagine Willie managing a Jim Hendry team? They'd have 2B in the bullpen...

3. Eraser-X is emphatically dominating teh site!!! Posted: June 19, 2008 at 05:36 PM (#2826004)

This is not meant to be a rhetorical question: How is the manager responsible for the number of 2b on the team?

4. Dizzypaco Posted: June 19, 2008 at 05:44 PM (#2826008)

This is not meant to be a rhetorical question: What is wrong with batting a guy with a good on base percentage second?

5. Chris Dial Posted: June 19, 2008 at 05:52 PM (#2826019)

How is the manager responsible for the number of 2b on the team?

Willie has input on "his guys". Omar's other teams don't have this fascination.

6. Chris Dial Posted: June 19, 2008 at 05:53 PM (#2826020)

What is wrong with batting a guy with a good on base percentage second?

Nothing, as long as his OPS is above average.

7. JPWF13

Posted: June 19, 2008 at 06:42 PM (#2826059)

Nothing, as long as his OPS is above average.

did Castillo run over your puppy or something?

His EQA is .270 (league average .260)
30 2Bs have 150+ PAs YTD
The average 2b has a GPA of .253, Castillo's is .252 (not park adjusted)

Of all the things wrong with the Mets this year, Castillo's offense and batting position is far down on the list

8. Mark S is still on target Posted: June 19, 2008 at 06:48 PM (#2826072)

Pranto (Jugaville, Maine): Was it right to can Willie Randolph?

SportsNation Keith Law: (2:43 PM ET ) No. The Mets' performance this year was caused by players underperforming, not Randolph mismanaging.

9. Chris Dial Posted: June 19, 2008 at 06:56 PM (#2826086)

I didn't say Castillo shouldn't be on teh team (he shouldn't be) nor that he shouldn't play. I said he shouldn't be in the tewo-hole. Above, I even stipulate that he's got a decent OBP, so let's stipulate that's okay. Willie doesn't have Castillo in the 2-hole because he has a decent OBP - he has him there because he's a second baseman. If Castillo's OBP were 0.300, he'd *still* be hitting second.

Here's a general rule - your players with OPS+ marks above 110 or so - lots of plate appearances. Players with OPS+ of 100 or less, *fewer* plate appearances.

That's not complicated, and I'm not sure how that's debatable.

10. Chris Dial Posted: June 19, 2008 at 06:58 PM (#2826089)

SportsNation Keith Law: (2:43 PM ET ) No. The Mets' performance this year was caused by players underperforming, not Randolph mismanaging.

Some of both. Willie, in the last week or so, had been making much more sensible moves with the bullpen. He was using most of the relievers properly, and letting the SPs get one more inning. But just in the last week. We blew a bunch of games late because players (sort of) underperformed. But they were generally put in a position where they are less successful - not in their strength positions. that's not Omar's fault - it's Willie's.

11. JPWF13

Posted: June 19, 2008 at 06:59 PM (#2826090)

Pranto (Jugaville, Maine): Was it right to can Willie Randolph?

SportsNation Keith Law: (2:43 PM ET ) No. The Mets' performance this year was caused by players underperforming, not Randolph mismanaging.

I heard him on another radio show a few weeks ago and he was practically ranting and raving that the Mets had to can him.

12. JPWF13

Posted: June 19, 2008 at 07:01 PM (#2826093)

Willie doesn't have Castillo in the 2-hole because he has a decent OBP - he has him there because he's a second baseman. If Castillo's OBP were 0.300, he'd *still* be hitting second.

That's quite likely true, just like Ralph Houk believed that 2Bs had to bat #1.

Personally with this roster, I'd bat Castillo 1st and Reyes 2nd...

13. Dizzypaco Posted: June 19, 2008 at 07:08 PM (#2826100)

Personally with this roster, I'd bat Castillo 1st and Reyes 2nd...

Seems right to me...

14. JPWF13

Posted: June 19, 2008 at 07:08 PM (#2826103)

Some of both. Willie, in the last week or so, had been making much more sensible moves with the bullpen.

I have to admit, Willie's mismanagement, especially of the bullpen, was much less egregious this year than in past years...
This lineup is not the lineup of a contender:

Reyes-SS Castillo-2B Wright-DH Beltran-CF Delgado-1B Anderson-LF Tatis-3B Schneider-C Chavez-RF

For those not counting at home, thats' 3 above average players, 1 average player and 5 below average players...

The Mets have used this specific lineup 4 times:
1. Reyes
2. Castillo
3. Wright
4. Beltran
5. Delgado
6. Anderson
7. Schneider
8. Chavez
9. Pitcher
spots 5 through 9 are almost dead weight.
This lineup has been used 3 times:
1. Reyes
2. Castillo
3. Wright
4. Beltran
5. Delgado
6. Tatis
7. Chavez
8. Schneider
9. Pitcher
This lineup has been used 3 times:
1. Reyes
2. Castillo
3. Wright
4. Beltran
5. Church
6. Alou
7. Delgado
8. Schneider
9. Pitcher
The above lineup is actually reasonably decent- it's not Wilie's fault it's only seen the light of day 3 times...

15. SoSH U at work Posted: June 19, 2008 at 07:11 PM (#2826107)

Willie doesn't have Castillo in the 2-hole because he has a decent OBP - he has him there because he's a second baseman. If Castillo's OBP were 0.300, he'd *still* be hitting second.

Did he just happen upon this philosophy in the last year and a half? Didn't Willie regularly bat his catcher in the 2 hole for the first couple of years of his tenure?

16. Chris Dial Posted: June 19, 2008 at 07:17 PM (#2826113)

Didn't Willie regularly bat his catcher in the 2 hole for the first couple of years of his tenure?

Skipped the article?

17. JPWF13

Posted: June 19, 2008 at 07:35 PM (#2826137)

“Chris, can you give me an example?” Sure, in 2005, Kaz Matsui and Miguel Cairo hit second 96 times. to be fair, Miguel Cairo, who hit second the most, did have a 0.296 OBP, and slugged 0.324. But not in 2006. Willie had Paul LoDuca. Terrific. the other guys hitting second? Matsui (until traded) and Chris Woodward. Again he used LoDuca there in 2007 until about midseason, then turned it over to Jose Valentin (2B), Ruben Gotay (2B) and then Castillo (2B). Yes, Endy Chavez, a career 0.309 OBP, got 20 starts in the second slot.

2008 Met #2 hitters: .284/.364/.414
League # 2 hitters:.268/.330/.400

2007 Met #2 Hitters: .297/.364/.428
League #2 Hitters: .277/.339/.422

2006 Met #2 hitters: .295/.338/.399
League #2 Hitters: .282/.345/.427

2005 Met #2 hitters: .245/.296/.362
League #2 Hitters:.269/.331/.401

So Met #2 hitters have improved from 2005 to 2006 to 2007 to 2008....

18. SoSH U at work Posted: June 19, 2008 at 07:36 PM (#2826139)

Skipped the article?

Skimmed is more like it.

But the point is, since Willie seems to be willing to use non second basemen in the No. 2 hole, it seems disingenuous to say he's there strictly because he's a second baseman. Obviously, it's not an absolute for him.

19. Chris Dial Posted: June 19, 2008 at 07:38 PM (#2826140)

The 2008 hitters aren't better than the 2007 hitters.

20. Chris Dial Posted: June 19, 2008 at 07:39 PM (#2826144)

since Willie seems to be willing to use non second basemen in the No. 2 hole, it seems disingenuous to say he's there strictly because he's a second baseman. Obviously, it's not an absolute for him.

Well, since htere are no absolutes in baseball, sure. Willie does it alot, and likes it.

21. Conor Posted: June 19, 2008 at 07:48 PM (#2826154)

The 2008 hitters aren't better than the 2007 hitters.

Considering the offensive levels, they might be. Probably it's about even though.

But I think more to the point is that he doesn't always hit his second basemen second.

22. Chris Dial Posted: June 19, 2008 at 07:56 PM (#2826160)

Luis Castillo in the 2-hole in 2007: 0.736
Gotay in the 2-hole: 0.997
DWright in the 2-hole: .956

23. Chris Dial Posted: June 19, 2008 at 08:04 PM (#2826170)

But I think more to the point is that he doesn't always hit his second basemen second.

I never said he did. He hits them second LOTS and much more than he should.

24. Padraic Posted: June 19, 2008 at 08:17 PM (#2826176)

The 2008 hitters aren't better than the 2007 hitters.

Relative to the league, according to OBP and SLG, they are.

25. Fridas Boss Posted: June 19, 2008 at 08:20 PM (#2826177)

23. Chris Dial Posted: June 19, 2008 at 04:04 PM (#2826170)

But I think more to the point is that he doesn't always hit his second basemen second.
I never said he did. He hits them second LOTS and much more than he should.

No, but you said that THE reason he hits LUIS CASTILLO second is because he's a 2nd baseman. What's your evidence for this?

26. Chris Dial Posted: June 19, 2008 at 08:22 PM (#2826178)

No, but you said that THE reason he hits LUIS CASTILLO second is because he's a 2nd baseman. What's your evidence for this?

His proliferation of other 2B in the 2-Hole.

27. Dizzypaco Posted: June 19, 2008 at 08:22 PM (#2826179)

I never said he did. He hits them second LOTS and much more than he should.

Given that he's gotten well above average production from his #2 hitters in each of the last two years, it seems strange to criticize his #2 choices. I'd say he's done a better job selecting a #2 hitter than most managers in the league. He may have made the right decision for the wrong reason, but it seems pretty obvious to me that the problem is in the bottom part of the order, not the top.

28. Fridas Boss Posted: June 19, 2008 at 08:24 PM (#2826180)

But since he doesn't only hit 2nd basemen in the 2-hole, how do you know he doesn't put Luis there becuase of his relatively good OBP?

Sounds like your trying to read the man's mind and then slag him for what you deduce.

29. Russlan is not Russian Posted: June 19, 2008 at 08:25 PM (#2826182)

As Snoop said in The Wire: Deserve got nothing to do with it. It was just his time, that's all.

Willie could have been fired after last season but was given another shot. He needed the Mets to start of well and they didn't. It's not all his fault but it doesn't matter. Sometimes, a change needs to be made simply for change's sake.

30. Andere Richtingen

Posted: June 19, 2008 at 08:28 PM (#2826184)

1. Reyes
2. Castillo
3. Wright
4. Beltran
5. Delgado
6. Anderson
7. Schneider
8. Chavez
9. Pitcher
spots 5 through 9 are almost dead weight.

Or "dreck," if you will.

31. Chris Dial Posted: June 19, 2008 at 08:28 PM (#2826185)

Excluding castillo, Second Basemen have hit second more for Willie than any other position. Catcher is right there. That's *excluding* Castillo. Adding Castillo really pumps it up.

32. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: June 19, 2008 at 08:28 PM (#2826186)

Luis Castillo in the 2-hole in 2007: 0.736
Gotay in the 2-hole: 0.997
DWright in the 2-hole: .956

I bet Piazza is there more often than all of these guys.

33. Raskolnikov Posted: June 19, 2008 at 08:28 PM (#2826187)

But since he doesn't only hit 2nd basemen in the 2-hole, how do you know he doesn't put Luis there becuase of his relatively good OBP?

Because that's never been Willie's pattern of usage. I don't think Willie picked Slappy to hit 2nd because he's a 2Bman or his OBP. I think he picked Slappy - the same reason he picked LoDuca - because they brought "little things" and "can handle a bat" intangibles to the spot. Now what those mythical qualities are, I've never understood, but Willie is certainly not in the minority to fall in love with the light-hitting #2 hitter.

34. Chris Dial Posted: June 19, 2008 at 08:29 PM (#2826188)

He may have made the right decision for the wrong reason

I actually said this in my post.

35. Dizzypaco Posted: June 19, 2008 at 08:33 PM (#2826193)

I just looked at the lineups that the Mets used the last two years. What was shocking was how utterly wrong Chris has been in his characterization. When Castillo hasn't batted second the last two years, its usually not been a second baseman. Church has hit second lots of times, followed by Chavez and Pagan. Last year it was Lo Duca, followed by Chavez, Milledge, and Wright. None of them are second basemen

Whatever reason Randolph had for batting Castillo second, it is absolutely clear it is not because he was a second baseman. Unless I am reading baseballreference.com wrong, which I don't think I am.

36. Conor Posted: June 19, 2008 at 08:35 PM (#2826195)

I never said he did. He hits them second LOTS and much more than he should.

You said he hit Castillo second because he was the second basemen. It was easy to make the connection.

Excluding castillo, Second Basemen have hit second more for Willie than any other position. Catcher is right there. That's *excluding* Castillo. Adding Castillo really pumps it up.

I think this might be wrong. (I have catchers with around 670 PA in the 2 hole, 2B around 640 but maybe I missed someone) But it's close enough for your point, I imagine.

He also hit Cameron second a bunch of times in 05. Though it was still dumb to have Cairo hit second at all.

37. Chris Dial Posted: June 19, 2008 at 08:36 PM (#2826196)

I think this might be wrong. (I have catchers with around 670 PA in the 2 hole, 2B around 640 but maybe I missed someone) But it's close enough for your point, I imagine.

It wouldn't be PAs. The 2006 scored more runs, so they get more PAs. It would be games started there.

38. Raskolnikov Posted: June 19, 2008 at 08:36 PM (#2826197)

Willie could have been fired after last season but was given another shot. He needed the Mets to start of well and they didn't. It's not all his fault but it doesn't matter. Sometimes, a change needs to be made simply for change's sake.

Except that's not and should not be the justification for Willie's dismissal. I hate this rewriting that outsiders are putting out there - as if Willie was some bystander to the Mets' poor play.

Willie didn't do anything to help his team. Okay, maybe he brought a level of calmness and classiness to the public microscope, but he didn't manage the game well, he didn't unite the team, he didn't inspire confidence when the team needed it, he didn't develop young players exceptionally well, he didn't breed an unusual comraderie amongst the individuals, he couldn't come up with any clever ideas or tricks, and most of all, he refuse to change even when it was obvious that he wasn't doing it right. Willie is a nice and likeable person, but geez, what did he bring to the table? Why did he deserve to continue managing this squad?

I wish him the best, and I'd be the first to support him replacing Kruk or Phillips on BBTN.

39. Chris Dial Posted: June 19, 2008 at 08:37 PM (#2826199)

Unless I am reading baseballreference.com wrong, which I don't think I am.

You are reading the combination of the two wrong.

40. Conor Posted: June 19, 2008 at 08:38 PM (#2826201)

What was shocking was how utterly wrong Chris has been in his characterization. When Castillo hasn't batted second the last two years, its usually not been a second baseman. Church has hit second lots of times, followed by Chavez and Pagan. Last year it was Lo Duca, followed by Chavez, Milledge, and Wright. None of them are second basemen

It was more of a 2005 and 2006 thing, especially 06. Lo Duca hit second the most, and Chavez was second, but after that you had Woodward, Matsui, Valentin, and Hernandez. In 05, Cameron and Matsui were 1st and 3rd in PA in the 2 hole.

Castillo has also started 10 games in the 8 hole this season, particularly when he was struggling. If he hadn't gotten hot, I imagine Willie would have continued hitting him close to the bottom of the order.

41. Dizzypaco Posted: June 19, 2008 at 08:38 PM (#2826202)

Looking at it again, in 2007, it was all over the map. Second hitters included Wright! for 10 games, Green, Beltran, Chavez, Valentin, Easley, Gotay, Lo Duca, and Castillo. For much of the year, he couldn't decide on a second hitter. Still, how anyone could look over the players who have batted second, and concluded that Randolph only or mostly bats second basemen there is beyond me.

42. Conor Posted: June 19, 2008 at 08:41 PM (#2826205)

It wouldn't be PAs. The 2006 scored more runs, so they get more PAs. It would be games started there.

The second spot got 740 PA in 05, 757 in 06, and 754 in 07. Is it that much of a difference? Do you have the breakdown then?

43. Conor Posted: June 19, 2008 at 08:47 PM (#2826210)

The second spot got 740 PA in 05, 757 in 06, and 754 in 07. Is it that much of a difference? Do you have the breakdown then?

The reason I ask is because I don't always know if a guy is is credited with hitting second started the game at second. (Particularly a guy like Easley who moves around.)

I think it is pretty close though.

44. Chris Dial Posted: June 19, 2008 at 09:32 PM (#2826242)

The reason I ask is because I don't always know if a guy is is credited with hitting second started the game at second. (Particularly a guy like Easley who moves around.)

I think it is pretty close though.

I didn't break it down like that. It's close enough to say that Willie puts LOTS of bad hitting 2B in there.

45. Russlan is not Russian Posted: June 19, 2008 at 09:39 PM (#2826248)

Ok, firing Willie was worth it just for this quote:

Explaining what happened when Jose Reyes put up a fight when asked to leave Tuesday's game with a hamstring injury, manager Jerry Manuel joked: "I told him next time he does that I'm going to get my blade out and cut him. I'm a gangster. You go gangster on me, I'm going to have to get you. You do that again, I'm going to cut you right on the field."

46. JPWF13

Posted: June 19, 2008 at 09:48 PM (#2826260)

"I told him next time he does that I'm going to get my blade out and cut him. I'm a gangster.

Really?
There must be something about managing the Whitesox

47. Chris Dial Posted: June 19, 2008 at 09:55 PM (#2826269)

Like I said, Joe Torre was an idiot in his first coaching stint.

48. Conor Posted: June 19, 2008 at 10:33 PM (#2826297)

Metsblog had an update this morning saying the Drudge report had a headline to the effect that the Mets manager threatened one of his players.

I couldn't get to Drudge report at work, but if true, thats funny they took it seriously.

49. Eraser-X is emphatically dominating teh site!!! Posted: June 19, 2008 at 10:37 PM (#2826303)

But not surprising.

50. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: June 20, 2008 at 12:49 PM (#2826773)

Like I said, Joe Torre was an idiot in his first coaching stint.

Jerry Manuel was a decent manager for the Sox and is by all accounts I've seen an intelligent and decent man. Taking a stand with Reyes is also consistent with his behavior while with the Sox.

Just wanted to say that.

51. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: June 20, 2008 at 01:48 PM (#2826820)

Willie didn't do anything to help his team. Okay, maybe he brought a level of calmness and classiness to the public microscope, but he didn't manage the game well, he didn't unite the team, he didn't inspire confidence when the team needed it, he didn't develop young players exceptionally well, he didn't breed an unusual comraderie amongst the individuals, he couldn't come up with any clever ideas or tricks, and most of all, he refuse to change even when it was obvious that he wasn't doing it right. Willie is a nice and likeable person, but geez, what did he bring to the table? Why did he deserve to continue managing this squad?

B I N G O!

This is the most intelligent assessment of Willie's tenure as I've read in the past year...

52. CrosbyBird Posted: June 20, 2008 at 04:51 PM (#2827087)

he didn't manage the game well, he didn't unite the team, he didn't inspire confidence when the team needed it, he didn't develop young players exceptionally well, he didn't breed an unusual comraderie amongst the individuals, he couldn't come up with any clever ideas or tricks, and most of all, he refuse to change even when it was obvious that he wasn't doing it right.

Dead on.

What bothered me most about Randolph is that I never once got the impression that he could out-manage his opponent. I never saw him as a guy that could innovate, that could make tactical decisions that had the potential to give the other guy a place to make a mistake. The best he could ever seem to do is not make his own mistakes.

53. Harris Posted: June 20, 2008 at 05:24 PM (#2827126)

Since I got tired of reading all the banter about Willie loving to put a 2B in the 2 hole, chicken/egg...blah blah blahh...I skipped posts 20-50.
I am going to side with the proliferation of the backup middle infielders on the roster as a Minaya problem. Managers may have input, GMs deal with personnel. If Minaya didn't want Abraham Nuñez on the lineup, he shouldn't have called him up.
Getting mad at Willie for this is the equivalent of blaming the GM for having you pitcher not bunt.

54. Joey B. is counting the days to Trea Turner Posted: June 20, 2008 at 05:36 PM (#2827139)

Jerry Manuel was a decent manager for the Sox and is by all accounts I've seen an intelligent and decent man. Taking a stand with Reyes is also consistent with his behavior while with the Sox.

Reyes is a great young player with incredible potential. But there's no doubt it: he needs to grow up.

55. calhounite Posted: June 21, 2008 at 04:09 AM (#2828234)

What mind? Randoph's a dumbster..so is Baker. Between the two of 'em, don't know why Jose Lopez is still in Seattle. Hackstatic reward 3 years runnin...Stick out, contact, bam! and a 2nd bman! Course Baker's fixated on outfielders.

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