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Bullpen Mechanics — A Scout's View Wednesday, March 07, 2007Controlled Fury: Tim LincecumLast year, I wrote an article where I reviewed the 1st round picks in last year’s draft Here’s what I said about Tim Lincecum:
Time will tell with young T-Link (that’s my attempt at a nickname) with respects to his degree of success in the majors. However, in this article, we’ll examine my above review and see, once we slow him down on video, if I was close to my initial assessment. Shall We? The controlled fury that is Tim Lincecum: TEMPO I always start with tempo. And with T-Link, I’m not going to spend too much time on it. He’s quick, he’s aggressive and there’s not much to not like in this department. From top of knee lift to release, he’s at around 22 frames. That’s with him turning his front leg substantially towards 2nd (which takes more time). Ok, I’m rambling. He’s good, really good. ARM ACTION That’s got to be one of the quickest arms anywhere. That is just insane. He “loads his shoulder” well. His elbow “picks up” the ball. Another benefit of having a quick tempo? So, am I nitpicking about his early hand break? LOWER BODY This is where it gets REALLY interesting. I mean, check this out…. 1) See how he leads with his butt/hips as he carries his body forward? That’s just phenomenal. 2) why did I stop the animation on frames 11 and 16? Recently, I wrote an article breaking down Matt Cain (the article at The Hardball Times, and the link to the comments here at BBTF).
I also mentioned this when I did the review on the draft. 3)Is he basically jumping off the mound? It sure looks like it. Watch the side clip. That’s 97 mph from just that much closer to the plate. The things he’s done before (his aggressive lead with his hips and butt, his push off the mound and his “stepover”) have put him in a position where he can now rotate his upper body aggressively into release from a little closer to the plate. MORE ROTATIONAL MADNESS Focus on his midsection and torso But he moves his head out of the way! FRONT SIDE AND FOLLOW THROUGH I won’t spend too much time here. He does a pretty good job of firming up his front side prior to release. His follow through is indicative of the power and effort he has put into the pitch. SUMMARY I’m almost too giddy in praise of Tim Lincecum. The power he can generate out of a 5’10”, 155 lb body is just plain ridiculous. Of course, there’s injury risk. He’s young, he’s aggressive, and his mechanics are uncommon. We know a little about his college workload. I can see why some may shy away from someone like this. Like I said in the draft review,
As always, comments and questions are welcome.
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1. Randomly Fluctuating Defensive Metric Posted: March 07, 2007 at 03:46 PM (#2308145)What prevents one from imitating his motion? Fear of injury?
What prevents one from imitating his motion? Fear of injury?
You must've caught my "I wish I could do this" comments before my final edit...lol.
In my case, probably lack of athleticism was the culprit.
His leg almost lands off the mound...
He reminds me more of Oswalt than Tim Hudson though.
Is that big front foot plant going to cause any hip problems?
Oh, and his nickname is Tim the Enchanter.
That might explain the crapping out it did when I posted. Surprised the post made it.
I'm gonna try the big jump too. Maybe it'll get me to not open up too soon.
<quote>Is that the biggest front leg extension ever?
His leg almost lands off the mound...
He reminds me more of Oswalt than Tim Hudson though.</quote>
I have no way to quantify that kind of thing, but there was a guy for the Rockies (I want to say last name House--Craig? maybe that had the biggest jump off I'd ever seen. And to me, yes, he's more Oswalt than Hudson.
That's the name I'm going with for him, though T-Link is certainly quicker. The reason for Tim the Enchanter? I love Monty Python and I am quite literally enchanted with Linecum's delivery. I'd never seen it before so I'm glad this was up. Thanks, CBW.
I'm always intrigued by small power pitchers. I think it started back in Little League with a fellow on my team. Short guy, tiny frame. But he threw his entire body into one pitch. He won repeatedly. Hitters feared him. The fathers were the unfortunate suckers who got to warm him up in the bullpen. One of his pitches hit my father in the foot and made his big toe swell up and turn purple. The toe stayed discolored for about a year.
Do you think he can handle the workload as a starter or would he be more effective letting loose as a reliever?
I'd like to see the Johan Santana career usage pattern for him. I'm pretty certain that he can handle both.
Santana's usage pattern with the Twins has been something of a model of how to best handle a very young, exceptional talent.
But there's nothing really new about it; it's essentially following Earl Weaver's advice that the best way to break in a young pitcher is in the long relief/spot starter role. Very few teams do it any more, instead sticking to the modern orthodoxy of rigid role specialization. But throughout history, there have been quite a few pitchers who went on to great success after being broken in with at least a year or two in some manner of the long relief/spot starter pattern:
- Nolan Ryan
- Gaylord Perry
- Sandy Koufax
- Don Drysdale
- Bob Feller
- Bob Gibson
- Jim Palmer
IIRC, it was also criticized pretty heavily in these parts at the time. Free Johan! indeed...
Lincecum does need to learn how to hit the zone more often though - no matter how rubber armed he might be.
I would also note that the Giants have been doing it with Brad Hennessey and Kevin Correia, though more Hennessey than Correia.
I would also note that Weaver liked to do that for a few reasons. One is that it is tough enough adjusting to the big leagues, so it gives the guy a year to acclimate himself to the major league lifestyle. The second is that he gets to put the pitcher through his paces and observe him in a close way he couldn't when the guy was in the minors. The third is that he can pick and chose the situations the pitcher is put into and Weaver was selective because he wanted to put the pitcher in situations where he could succeed. That's my foggy memory, I read a few years back, please correct as needed.
But it's a great book, totally recommend it to anyone.
Speaking of Monty Python and the "stepping over", makes me think of the Ministry of Silly Walks. :^)
Lastly, the Giants clearly want him to be a starter. They have stated this over and over again, if they had their choice, he would be a starter. It's a no-brainer but some people get so down on Sabean that they think he can't figure that one out. Besides, Sabean has been totally touting Brian Wilson as the closer of the future, if Lincecum is relieving he should be the closer.
As of right now, if the Giants were to bring Lincecum up as a long-relief/spot starter, that would take Brad Hennessey's role so that won't be a loss. But there's still Sanchez, who could also benefit from a long-relief/spot role too.
As it should have been. Stashing their best pitcher in the bullpen for half the 2003 season and nearly costing themselves a division title was moronic, especially considering he'd already thrown over 200 innings in the majors.
As to Lincecum, that seems like a LOT of force coming down on that front leg. But I know slightly less about pitching mechanics than I do particle physics.
I hope I'm wrong. Good luck, kid.
It is, and that's the beauty of it with respect to mechanical efficiency. It becomes a matter of risk/reward. If he wasn't as aggressive, how hard woud he throw? 88-90? we don't know-maybe he'd last longer in the bigs if he toned it down a bit. However, I'd rather have a guy throwing at his maximum ability for say 7-8 years than at a reduced ability for 15 years. Does that make me a "peak" guy in HOF credentials' discussions?
As to "maximum for 7-8" vs "reduced for 15" ... I suspect someone like Mussina could have had a higher peak, but I quite like his career. Certainly better than, say, Jim Maloney or Gary Nolan. (I know, I'm cherry-picking) That's not to say I think you're wrong necessarily.
I can't explain it or defend it, but I tend towards "peak" for hitters but "career" for pitchers. Though I'm more impressed by a career very good hitter (Eddie Murray) than I am by a career very good pitcher (Sutton). Go figger. But anyway, other than Koufax (and I probably support him less than any other fan), I don't know that there's a single short-career pitcher I'd put in my HOF (deadball guys excluded).
Sorry, please don't hijack this into a peak vs career HoF debate, this article is more interesting than that.
No. There's room for debate, as there is in the usage pattern of virtually every pitcher. But to call the Twins' handling of Santana "moronic" is, well, you know ...
In the first place, the issue of course of the risk/reward tradeoff of maximizing current value vs. long-term value. Obviously no one can never know, but it is absolutely a good possiblity that the Twins wouldn't have enjoyed the fully-healthy-and-effective 230-inning seasons they've gotten from Santana in 2004-05-06 had they worked him harder prior to 2004, including in 2003.
And in the second place, to describe how they used Santana in 2003 as "stashing him in the bullpen" is inaccurate. They used him in the bullpen; they got 27 relief appearances and 48 innings out of him in the first half of the season, which is a highly useful innings-eating reliever, in addition to his four first-half starts. Then they got 14 starts out him in the second half. Overall, his workload of 45 games and 158 innings in 2003 was very significant, nothing resembling the neglect that "stashing" infers.
Alas, these are pitchers. Nothing always works. The issue is to prudently decide what's most likely to work, striking the best balance between short-term and long-term returns.
Have you referred to the "Weaver Approach" when talking about Santana around Gleeman? Because I witnessed him climb ALL OVER some folks at his blog in the comments section when they made the same exact reference.
I am not clever enough to sift through his blog's archives and quote his comments. But I distinctly recall him stating that such suggestions were "nonsense" and "utter cr*p".
Just letting you know.........
Moreover, I'd say the team needs to focus on its interests, rather than those of the pitcher.
I thought the Twins should have put him in the rotation some time earlier than when they actually did ... while I don't know if the outcome they got is better than what they would have had they made him a regular rotation guy sooner, I'm sure they'll take the actual outcome. :)
I've never had the pleasure of that conversation with Aaron. I'll be sure to file it away for the next time I want to spike his blood pressure!
Absolutely. But the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.
while I don't know if the outcome they got is better than what they would have had they made him a regular rotation guy sooner, I'm sure they'll take the actual outcome.
Yep. In an ideal world, they'd have been getting 300 innings out of him since he was 21. But that's isn't close to realistic.
So the question becomes, what's the best overall value the Twins have been realistically likely to extract from Santana? While what they have gotten isn't necessarily optimal, it's surely closer to optimal than many alternative scenarios, which include his encountering serious injury, or his being limited far more tightly than he has, such as in a closer role.
But then the next year, at the age of 24, after seemingly proven himself as a starter, the Twins did it again, putting him in the pen to start the year. 24's not usually considered too young for a starter. Moreover, in spring 2003, Eric Milton got hurt and rather than turning to Santana, the Twins went out and signed Kenny Rogers (amazingly, unsigned as of Mar 17). If not for Mays (especially) and Reed stinking up the joint, Santana probably never sees the rotation. He ended up pitching just as many innings in 2003 as in 2002.
I might believe the Twins were "Weavering" in 2002. But in 2002, Santana showed he was ready to be a starter and there's little reason (see below) why they shouldn't have made him a full-time one at age 24. Their actions in 2003 -- keeping their rotation from the previous year, signing Rogers when Milton went down -- suggest they still didn't see him as a starter. So while he got treated in a Weaver fashion, I don't think that was the Twins' intent. I suspect that's the crux of Aaron's argument -- that plus he predicted Santana to lead the league in Ks or something preseason if I remember so he's annoyed that his "shock" prediction got thwarted by "dumb" Twins management. :-)
The counter-argument would run like this. Reed was 38 and in the last year of his contract so the Twins may have seen Santana as his replacement for 2004 and still wanted to baby him. But that still leaves the mystery of why they preferred Lohse (who the Twins made a full-time starter at 22 and was 24 in 2003) and why they turned to Rogers. Not to mention that pitching 156 IP at ages 23 and 24 is still a pretty heavy load.
The Lohse-Santana comparison might also shed light on this. At the age of 20, Santana had thrown 160 IP in the Houston farm system. Then at 21, he threw 86 major-league innings (as a Rule 5, they had to keep him on the roster). That looks pretty standard. Why they didn't put him in the minors at 22 I can't say.
Lohse, the same age, threw 165 IP in the Cubs farm system at age 20 then 167 at 21. He remained in the minors at the start of age 22 but remained a full-time starter and was called up by the Twins. The Twins essentially used him as a full-time starter from the beginning. Why give Santana the Weaver treatment and not Lohse? There might be reasons related to their specific mechanics and makeup but I think the most likely explanation is that the Twins didn't treat Santana that way on purpose, it's just how things worked out even though they didn't think he was a better starting prospect than Lohse or better option than Reed/Rogers/Mays.
Spot on.
Lincecum went 3 scoreless Sunday. 2 H allowed, 0 walks, 4 K's
I can think of two very hard throwers of the past who understood how to build forward momentum into a long stride - Nolan Ryan and Sandy Koufax. Both threw high volume pitch count games their entire careers. Nolan Ryan had many games of well over 150 pitches with little arm injury. Although his high leg lift may have slowed down his momentum he knew how to leap out there...Koufax the same way.
I believe the worst that could happen to Lincecum would be not allow him to throw high pitch bullpens and games. That recipe has worked well for Matsuzaka his entire career including many high school games of very high pitch counts. Pitch counts are not the problem. Not being fit to pitch is by saving the arm for the game. That clearly has not worked to prevent injuries.
A pitcher cannot become fit to pitch a game of 120 pitches if he is only throwing 40-50 pitch bullpens. Where does the extra 60-70 pitches come from for the game. When the body is not fit to pitch the body fatigues and the arm will not get to a mechanically sound position and the pitcher will try to gain his velocity from his arm...instead of his body.
The arm does not produce much velocity. The body stretches out from high momentum and is what delivers the arm. The arm is mainly the source of control...not velocity. Saving it for the game makes no sense.
Kerry Wood is a good example of today's pitching problems...mostly upper body throwers. Kerry Wood will begin playing catch next week here in Phoenix. If he does not work on developing better forward momentum with his lower body into a much longer stride, (100% or more) then he too, may end up tearing his rotator cuff even more.
I like what ChadBradfordWannabe is saying on this site. He is one of the few out there who understands the importance of speed of movement in pitching. Chad, congratulations!
Dick Mills
www.pitching.com
31 IP, 12 H, 1 ER, 11 BB, 44 K
His K/9 is good, but his K% has to be off the charts right now. Quick guess is that he's K'd 44 out of 116 Batters faced.
The only thing that scares me about his delivery is his landing. Not that he gets such amazing extension, but that he lands on his heel and then stiffens up his left leg as the rest of his body comes forward. You can see how he kind of "pops up" right after he releases the ball. He's got some flex in the leg initially, as it's not popping him up so violently that he has trouble locating the ball, but like Stormcrow I'm a little concerned about how that shock will affect his hips as he ages.
Other than that, I like what I see too. Really nice arm angle.
he hides the ball like an old school turn of the century player and that huge sweeping overhand delivery is mezmerizing.
even after players have faced him a few games, i think it's still going to take them 2 or 3 at bats in a game to be able to hit this guy. he's deceptive and throws darts up there
Giants fans are lucky to have the oppertunity to watch him, i could watch him pitch all day long, he's a beautiful work of art, poetry in motion.
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/pitching clips/lincecumVSgallardoslow.gif
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa173/xvue84/pitching clips/lincecumVSgallardosuperslow.gif
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