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Friday, March 26, 2021

2021 Orioles Hall of Fame inductees

he Orioles today announced that former Orioles shortstop J.J. HARDY and former outfielder MIKE DEVEREAUX have been elected to the Orioles Hall of Fame. Additionally, long-time Orioles radio broadcaster JOE ANGEL will be inducted as this year’s Herb Armstrong Award winner. That trio, along with the previously announced Wild Bill Hagy Award winner, MOSSILA “MO” GABA, will be honored during an on-field ceremony prior to the Orioles game on Saturday, August 7, against the Tampa Bay Rays.

Hardy played the last seven seasons of his 13-year career with the Orioles from 2011-17, winning three consecutive Gold Glove Awards from 2012-14. He ranks third among Orioles shortstops in games played behind Cal Ripken, Jr. and Mark Belanger, and led the league in fielding percentage three times….

Devereaux spent seven of his 12 big league seasons with the Orioles, 1989-94 and 1996. The centerfielder was voted Most Valuable Oriole in 1992 after leading the team in 10 offensive categories including batting average, home runs, and RBI. He batted .251 with 94 home runs and 403 RBI in his Orioles career and is one of three Orioles to finish a season with 10-or-more doubles, triples, and home runs (1991 and 1992), and the only one to do so twice. ...

Angel, the winner of the Herb Armstrong Award, given to non-uniformed Orioles personnel, spent 19 seasons over three stints as an Orioles radio broadcaster before retiring following the 2018 season. Overall, he spent 42 years as a baseball broadcaster, also working for the San Francisco Giants, Oakland Athletics, Minnesota Twins, New York Yankees, and Florida Marlins, as well as ESPN.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 26, 2021 at 01:09 PM | 54 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. Jose Is An Absurd Balladeer Posted: March 26, 2021 at 01:21 PM (#6010271)
This deserves to be out there as well;

Gaba, a 14-year old Orioles superfan, was elected to the Orioles Hall of Fame on July 28, 2020, as the second-ever recipient of The Wild Bill Hagy Award, as one of the most passionate and devoted fans in franchise history. Gaba, who passed away the night of his election to the Hall of Fame, began calling in to 105.7 The Fan’s sports programming in 2015 at the age of nine. Unbeknownst to his mother, Sonsy, he would call in on afternoons when he got home from school to share his unparalleled knowledge of Baltimore sports with local fans and radio listeners. Despite losing his eyesight due to a malignant tumor when he was just nine months old and enduring four different battles with cancer throughout his life, Gaba’s infectious laughter and enthusiasm quickly captured the hearts of local sports fans, making him a Baltimore celebrity and a household name.
   2. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: March 26, 2021 at 04:23 PM (#6010309)
Hardy ranks 28th in Orioles WAR all-time (since 1954) whilst Devereaux comes in at 35th. (And that's just among batters; if you include pitchers, they're 38th and 50th, respectively.) Just how many inductees are in the Orioles Hall of Fame, anyway? Are the people who clean the rest rooms eligible? (Downright terrifying fact: Devereaux is only two spots ahead of Chris Davis.)
   3. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 26, 2021 at 04:54 PM (#6010314)
   4. Walt Davis Posted: March 26, 2021 at 05:04 PM (#6010318)
#1: Bravo!

#2: Most teams' HoFs (or whatever) dig pretty deep. Electing 1 guy every 5 years isn't gonna generate a lot of publicity. But moreover ... Hardy wasn't a great player but 7 years is a good run and, as the excerpt notes, 3rd all-time in SS games for the O's. (I assume a distant 3rd but he's probably #3 by WAR as well.) And by WAR, in the 67-year history of the O's, he's #28 among position players ... that's not so bad. For a team HoF, electing an entire lineup every 20-25 years sounds about right. (Of course that would electing one guy every 2 years and team HoFs get into "trouble" when they go faster than that.)

Deveraux was a worse player than I recalled. He was a late bloomer which is also interesting since I vaguely recall him as a hot prospect. That might have just been the era though -- for a long time all "rookies" were talked about as if they were young and of course all Dodger rookies were assumed to be really good. Anyway, he did have a nice late 20s and a couple of years with 4.5 WAR. He works out as average over his career but I think of him more as a guy who was decided above-average for about 5-6 years which isn't the case.
   5. Walt Davis Posted: March 26, 2021 at 05:07 PM (#6010319)
Fittingly Lowenstein and Roenicke inducted in the same year.
   6. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 26, 2021 at 05:31 PM (#6010325)
Fittingly Lowenstein and Roenicke inducted in the same year.

Should have made they share one spot.

#2: Most teams' HoFs (or whatever) dig pretty deep.

Do most teams have these things? Yankees have only retired 22 numbers, incl. managers, and another 10 or so have plaques.
   7. Walt Davis Posted: March 26, 2021 at 05:34 PM (#6010326)
The early guys and the execs, etc. I can't comment on but most of the players in that list seem deserving by standard team HoF criteria. Virtually everybody around during a successful run goes in. Anybody remotely close to a HoFer goes in almost no matter how little time they spent with the team. Al Bumbry as the 13th player elected and quickly might be a bit of a stretch but he spent almost his entire career there, was a very good player, won a RoY, played on 4 division winners including 1 WS and 1 AL pennant.

I had to look Stever Barber up but he was a very good pitcher for the O's (his post-O's career is not very good), he made 2 AS teams, won 20 one year, led the AL in shutouts in another. Unfortunately looks like he got hurt at the end of 66 so didn't appear in the playoffs ... and never pitched well again.

Scott McGregor was a pretty average pitcher overall but threw all 2140 of his innings for the O's, had a 20 win season, was quite good in the middle of his career, played on the WS and AL pennant teams. Davey Johnson 20 WAR, 3 AS, 3 GG, 4 pennants, 2 rings. Rick Dempsey was a good player and fan favorite.

Lee May is probably the first guy who really doesn't belong. He was there for 6 years but not a particularly good player at the time. But then he started with seasons of 99, 109 and 99 RBI which got lots of notice in the day. Don Buford was only there for 5 years but the first 4 were excellent and included 3 pennants and a ring and an AS then off a cliff.

Tippy Martinez and Dauer are the other names that sound like a stretch.

So it is a big HoF but there aren't a lot of clunkers there and they are nearly all players that you associate with the O's first. Helps to be a really good team for 15-20 years.
   8. Walt Davis Posted: March 26, 2021 at 05:49 PM (#6010329)
Do most teams have these things? Yankees have only retired 22 numbers, incl. managers, and another 10 or so have plaques.

I'm under the impression that a big majority of teams have something (HoF, circle of honor, whatever) but I don't keep count. Some like the Yanks and Cubs don't, just a smattering of retired numbers or plaques. Some teams have made some questionable number retirement decisions.

The Cards' HoF has 46 members (per Wiki). Most are hard to argue with but Vince Coleman and Jason Isringhausen look a bit questionable and Tommy Herr was the 2020 inductee. Ahh, they have several "committees" apparently allowing fans to choose some and that's how those three got in -- what the heck, it's for the fans after all.

The Rangers' HoF is up to 22 already (not all players). It's a pretty solid list actually. I'm not sure Michael Young really deserves a retired number though.
   9. SoSH U at work Posted: March 26, 2021 at 06:21 PM (#6010333)
Do most teams have these things? Yankees have only retired 22 numbers, incl. managers, and another 10 or so have plaques.


The team Hall of Fame is the nice way of honoring an almost unlimited number of past greats and near-greats and other favorites, since it's not taking numbers out of circulation. I think the Yanks' roster of number retirees would look a lot more sensible if the celebration of Roger Maris and Billy Martin and Reggie Jackson were limited to a team Hall, rather than sharing space with Babe, Lou and the Mick.
   10. Jose Is An Absurd Balladeer Posted: March 26, 2021 at 07:20 PM (#6010339)
The team Hall of Fame is the nice way of honoring an almost unlimited number of past greats and near-greats and other favorites


Yeah, to me the order goes;

Frozen Head (OK, this is probably just a Red Sox thing)
Statue
Retired Number
Team Hall of Fame
   11. DL from MN Posted: March 26, 2021 at 08:17 PM (#6010344)
Tommy Herr was the 2020 inductee


I can guarantee Tommy Herr is never making it into the Twins Hall of Fame.
   12. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: March 26, 2021 at 08:49 PM (#6010347)
The Rangers' HoF is up to 22 already (not all players). It's a pretty solid list actually.

I'm a little surprised to see Wetteland still there instead of having him quietly disappear.
   13. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: March 26, 2021 at 09:55 PM (#6010358)
(Downright terrifying fact: Devereaux is only two spots ahead of Chris Davis.)
Relax. Davis has two years left on his contract.
   14. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 26, 2021 at 10:03 PM (#6010359)
The team Hall of Fame is the nice way of honoring an almost unlimited number of past greats and near-greats and other favorites, since it's not taking numbers out of circulation. I think the Yanks' roster of number retirees would look a lot more sensible if the celebration of Roger Maris and Billy Martin and Reggie Jackson were limited to a team Hall, rather than sharing space with Babe, Lou and the Mick.

If you've go to Monument Park there actually is a distinction. Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio and Mantle (along with Miller Huggins) have big tombstone-like monuments. The other retired numbers just have a plaque on the wall. The third tier is guys who just have plaques but not retired numbers.
   15. Ron J Posted: March 26, 2021 at 11:22 PM (#6010363)
Having thought about Mike Deveraux perfectly captures why the Orioles are where they are now and as such absolutely belongs in the Oriole hall.

   16. Jose Is An Absurd Balladeer Posted: March 26, 2021 at 11:27 PM (#6010366)
One thing the Red Sox do that I like is they induct “moments.” Roberts’ steal, Fisk’s homer, Earl Wilson’s no hitter. It’s a neat little thing.
   17. Howie Menckel Posted: March 27, 2021 at 12:14 AM (#6010370)
the Mets have only retired the numbers of Seaver, Piazza, and managers Hodges and Stengel (plus Jackie Robinson, who played in the adjoining borough).

the Mets Hall of Fame players are all from 1969, 1973, 1986, and 2000.
   18. Walt Davis Posted: March 27, 2021 at 12:16 AM (#6010371)
Having thought about Mike Deveraux perfectly captures why the Orioles are where they are now and as such absolutely belongs in the Oriole hall.

One of the Cub sites did this, figuring the Cubs HoF, should they ever have one, should celegrate the history -- Kevin Orie for not turning a hit into an error, Brant Brown for "Oh Noooo!" etc.
   19. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: March 27, 2021 at 12:47 AM (#6010373)
One thing the Red Sox do that I like is they induct “moments.” Roberts’ steal, Fisk’s homer, Earl Wilson’s no hitter. It’s a neat little thing.
They’ll be selling digital “shares” of those “moments” within the next 90 days.
   20. vortex of dissipation Posted: March 27, 2021 at 01:52 AM (#6010381)
I had to look Steve Barber up but he was a very good pitcher for the O's (his post-O's career is not very good), he made 2 AS teams, won 20 one year, led the AL in shutouts in another. Unfortunately looks like he got hurt at the end of 66 so didn't appear in the playoffs ... and never pitched well again.


Barber played for the Seattle Pilots, and is often mentioned in Jim Bouton's "Ball Four" - never in a positive light. He and Bouton did not get along, and Bouton accuses him of refusing to pitch, while trying to downplay an arm injury, taking up a roster spot that could be used by another, more healthy, pitcher. That negative portrayal of Barber in the book has become Barber's legacy.
   21. Random Transaction Generator Posted: March 27, 2021 at 09:40 AM (#6010388)
The Blue Jays have two levels of honouree:

- Retired Number
- Level of Excellence

Roberto Alomar and Roy Halladay are the only ones with retired numbers, and their numbers hang in the roof beside the championship banners.

The Level of Excellence has them as well, plus HOF/HOVG-level players like Dave Stieb, Carlos Delgado, and Tony Fernandez. There are also players who ring true with the fans, like Joe Carter and George Bell. The management team that led the Jays to the their two World Series are also honoured: manager Cito Gaston, GM Pat Gillick, President/CEO Paul Beeston. Finally, the long time radio announcer (and Ford Frick/HOF member) Tom Cheek (with the number 4036 beside it, the number of games he broadcasted in a row from Game 1 in 1977 to midway through 2004).

It is fully expected Tom Cheek's former radio partner Jerry Howarth will have his name in the Level of Excellence as soon as they can have fans back in the ballpark in Toronto. He was the other voice on the radio (and eventually the primary one after Cheek retired in 2005) from 1982 to 2018.

Jose Bautista will almost assuredly get his name up on the Level in a few years.

There has been talk of opening up some sort of "hall of fame" at the Rogers Centre for famous moments/memorabilia, but it hasn't happened yet.
   22. Howie Menckel Posted: March 27, 2021 at 10:37 AM (#6010395)
soon after purchasing the team new Mets owner Steve Cohen revealed that he not only owns the "Mookie Wilson ball" from Game 6 of the 1986 World Series after paying for $418,000 for it a few years ago (he's worth more than $10 billion so I assume he paid cash.

after this revelation, and that he would loan the ball to the Mets Hall of Fame at CitiField - well, think the closing scene in "It's A Wonderful Life"......

Keith Olbermann
@KeithOlbermann
·
Nov 25, 2020
Hey, you know what, @StevenACohen2, if you want a loan of Billy Buck’s glove for the display, I’m all in...

It’d be nice if the glove and the ball touched for the first time ;-)

Gary Taffet
@GaryTaffet
·
Nov 25, 2020
@StevenACohen2
Great interview. You have the Buckner ball. I have Mookie’s cleats he wore when he hit that famous grounder. Would love to loan this to Mets Museum this year. Pair it with the ball. Interested? LGM! @Mets
   23. SoSH U at work Posted: March 27, 2021 at 10:54 AM (#6010398)
soon after purchasing the team new Mets owner Steve Cohen revealed that he not only owns the "Mookie Wilson ball" from Game 6 of the 1986 World Series after paying for $418,000 for it a few years ago (he's worth more than $10 billion so I assume he paid cash.

after this revelation, and that he would loan the ball to the Mets Hall of Fame at CitiField - well, think the closing scene in "It's A Wonderful Life"......

Keith Olbermann
@KeithOlbermann
·
Nov 25, 2020
Hey, you know what, @StevenACohen2, if you want a loan of Billy Buck’s glove for the display, I’m all in...

It’d be nice if the glove and the ball touched for the first time ;-)

Gary Taffet
@GaryTaffet
·
Nov 25, 2020
@StevenACohen2
Great interview. You have the Buckner ball. I have Mookie’s cleats he wore when he hit that famous grounder. Would love to loan this to Mets Museum this year. Pair it with the ball. Interested? LGM! @Mets


What does any of this have to do with the Brooklyn Dodgers?
   24. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 27, 2021 at 11:35 AM (#6010404)
Roberto Alomar and Roy Halladay are the only ones with retired numbers, and their numbers hang in the roof beside the championship banners.

I think most teams are way too stingy with retired numbers. You've got 100 of them, you can retire 10, and not miss them.
   25. SoSH U at work Posted: March 27, 2021 at 12:39 PM (#6010410)
I think most teams are way too stingy with retired numbers. You've got 100 of them, you can retire 10, and not miss them.


Looking at that club, it would seem the Jays just retire the numbers of HoFers, which I find very odd. You're basically outsourcing your club's biggest honor to the BBWAA and Vets Committee, and it leaves you with the bizarre condition where five-year Jay has his number retired and the greatest player in the franchise's history does not.
   26. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 27, 2021 at 12:45 PM (#6010411)
Looking at that club, it would seem the Jays just retire the numbers of HoFers, which I find very odd. You're basically outsourcing your club's biggest honor to the BBWAA and Vets Committee, and it leaves you with the bizarre condition where five-year Jay has his number retired and the greatest player in the franchise's history does not.

Agree. Stieb, Fernandez, Delgado, and Bautista (and probably 5 more guys I can't remember) are all much more deserving than Alomar. Half the time I don't even remember he played for Toronto.
   27. Walt Davis Posted: March 27, 2021 at 05:26 PM (#6010434)
The Cubs only retire HoF numbers (so far). Of course Ernie was a lifetime Cub, Williams, Sandberg and Santo nearly so. Fergie wasn't but his greatest seasons were and he's #1 in WAR for Cub pitchers. And Fergie and Maddux wore the same number so retiring Maddux's number was a freebie even though obviously he had his best years for the Braves. (Maddux #11 in Cubs pitching WAR plus one CYA is not shabby.) When I started watching Cubs baseball, there were no retired numbers.

I suppose 3-Finger et al predated numbers. I'm a bit surprised they haven't retired Hartnett's. Anybody know what it was? (I see Hartnett died on his 72nd birthday). Sosa aside, the only non-HoFers I can think of with a serious claim are Hack and Grace. Ken Hubbs maybe.

Anyway, maybe it was being raised right (i.e. as a Cub fan), I think retired numbers should be a very high standard. I wouldn't set it up such that you had to retire all that made the HoF, especially if they just passed through. But if a team like the Jays, <50 years old, gets overly generous with retired numbers now then it either makes the honor less of an honor and/or they have to cut back over the next 50 years even if they have more deserving players. Plus I wouldn't trust the deciders not to pick Joe Carter next.
   28. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 27, 2021 at 05:34 PM (#6010436)
Anyway, maybe it was being raised right (i.e. as a Cub fan), I think retired numbers should be a very high standard.

Why? It's a nice honor and costs nothing.

Sosa seems like an obvious one for the Cubs. Plus Hartnett and Wilson.
   29. Jobu is silent on the changeup Posted: March 27, 2021 at 07:51 PM (#6010450)
Gene Woodling? I hope he donated a library or something.
   30. Howie Menckel Posted: March 27, 2021 at 08:31 PM (#6010455)
What does any of this have to do with the Brooklyn Dodgers?

while it was very difficult to tell in Citi Field's inaugural season that the Mets and not the Brooklyn Dodgers played there, public outcry led to changes by the following season.

it's basically good enough. few if any were complaining about the Jackie Robinson Rotunda anyway - just that it would be nice to see signals that the Mets play there. mission pretty much accomplished.

Jeff Wilpon once told me that he wanted the new stadium to have an overhang in right field just like the old Detroit Tigers stadium, because his grandfather used to take him to games there. Jeff's Dad Fred went to HS with Sandy Koufax and of course was a big Dodgers fan.

their joint obliviousness to the idea that just because you own the franchise shouldn't mean that it gets molded in your image - but rather, it's a public good for everyone, not just the lucky rich people who buy the team - always was utterly lost on them.

if anyone wonders about the level of schoolgirl crushes the fan base has for new owner Cohen - that's why. seems like he "gets it," as they say.

(and there's two forms of "gets it." you can actually see yourself as a conservator of a public trust, or you can cynically see acting that way as a smart marketing play. but it's like when you call an inept business that has screwed up, and you want to make a complaint. in that moment, it doesn't matter so much if the customer service person on the phone cares at all - or if they are rolling their eyes while chatting. part of the social contract is pretending to give a ####. Cohen has easily cleared that bar in a way that the Wilpons never did.)
   31. vortex of dissipation Posted: March 27, 2021 at 08:36 PM (#6010457)
I'm a bit surprised they haven't retired Hartnett's. Anybody know what it was?


According to BR, he wore three numbers with the Cubs - both "7" and "9" in 1932, then "9" through 1936, and "2" from 1937 to 1940.
   32. vortex of dissipation Posted: March 27, 2021 at 08:40 PM (#6010458)
Sosa seems like an obvious one for the Cubs. Plus Hartnett and Wilson.


Hack Wilson never wore a number with the Cubs. His last year with them was 1931, and they didn't start wearing numbers until 1932.
   33. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 27, 2021 at 09:04 PM (#6010462)

Hack Wilson never wore a number with the Cubs. His last year with them was 1931, and they didn't start wearing numbers until 1932.


Other teams have dealt with this; just put his name up with the retired numbers.
   34. flournoy Posted: March 27, 2021 at 09:16 PM (#6010463)
What's the point? He's been dead for over 70 years. Why go out of your way to (not really) retire his non-existent number?
   35. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: March 27, 2021 at 09:49 PM (#6010464)
Agree. Stieb, Fernandez, Delgado, and Bautista (and probably 5 more guys I can't remember) are all much more deserving than Alomar. Half the time I don't even remember he played for Toronto.


He was the centerpiece of a back-to-back WS championship team, won 5 GGs and an ALCS MVP there. It’s also the team he played the most seasons for and put up the most WAR with. I agree there are other guys who should be up there too, but really there’s nothing wrong with them retiring Alomar’s number.
   36. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 27, 2021 at 09:59 PM (#6010467)
He was the centerpiece of a back-to-back WS championship team, won 5 GGs and an ALCS MVP there. It’s also the team he played the most seasons for and put up the most WAR with. I agree there are other guys who should be up there too, but really there’s nothing wrong with them retiring Alomar’s number.

Nothing wrong, but he played like 30% of his career in Toronto.

What's the point? He's been dead for over 70 years. Why go out of your way to (not really) retire his non-existent number?

Because team history is one of the things that builds fan loyalty and increases the value of your franchise. The all time single-season RBI leader was a Cub, that's cool. He also had a tremendous, but short, career. 38 WAR and 21 WAA in 5500 PA is really good.
   37. Walt Davis Posted: March 27, 2021 at 11:26 PM (#6010473)
Why? It's a nice honor and costs nothing.

So is the HoF.

It is common to have tiers of "honor." Retiring a number is, rather obviously, this player was so great or so meaningful to the team that nobody should be allowed to step into his uniform. It's the highest honor a team has to hand out.

You're concerned about Alomar but Hack Wilson's 3700 PA for the Cubs should be honored? Rather obviously 3-Finger and Hartnett are the missing guys. Sosa's number isn't retired for the same reason he's not in the HoF (plus he didn't leave in the best of circumstances).

I now realize people might have thought I meant Hack Wilson ... I meant Stan Hack.
   38. BDC Posted: March 28, 2021 at 11:23 AM (#6010479)
I've usually thought that if a team retires your number, at least longtime fans should be able easily to connect player and number. For most teams I imagine this is pretty much in alignment, using myself and the Rangers to test the theory. Ivan Rodriguez was 7, which I remember because The Magnificent Seven was his walkup music. Beltre 29, Nolan Ryan 34 of course, Michael Young was 10 whether he deserved retiring it or not. The few others I remember, still unretired, are Ruben Sierra 21 because Clemente had worn 21; and Elvis Andrus wore 1. Prince Fielder wore 84, that was distinctive.

I think I don't pay much attention to numbers. I own a Shin-Soo Choo T-shirt and had to go look at the shirt to see what number it was (17). To be fair, I can't see the number when I am wearing the shirt.
   39. Howie Menckel Posted: March 28, 2021 at 01:21 PM (#6010484)
I can't see the number when I am wearing the shirt.

no mirrors? or maybe you are a vampire
:)
   40. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 28, 2021 at 01:28 PM (#6010485)
It is common to have tiers of "honor." Retiring a number is, rather obviously, this player was so great or so meaningful to the team that nobody should be allowed to step into his uniform. It's the highest honor a team has to hand out.

Why take it so seriously? Who does it hurt that Billy Martin and Roger Maris and Joe Torre have their numbers retired. None of them deserve it.
   41. SoSH U at work Posted: March 28, 2021 at 01:54 PM (#6010488)
Who does it hurt that Billy Martin and Roger Maris and Joe Torre have their numbers retired.


The dozens of players more deserving that didn't get their numbers retired by the Yankees?
   42. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 28, 2021 at 02:01 PM (#6010489)
The dozens of players more deserving that didn't get their numbers retired by the Yankees?

Only if you think there's a rationing of these things. I think anyone good/popular enough gets the honor, regardless of the number.
   43. flournoy Posted: March 28, 2021 at 02:10 PM (#6010490)
Because team history is one of the things that builds fan loyalty and increases the value of your franchise.


In general, yes. But everyone who saw Hack Wilson play is dead. I don't think inventing a new sub-category of team honors for such a guy is going to interest fans one way or another.
   44. BDC Posted: March 28, 2021 at 02:18 PM (#6010491)
no mirrors?

Well, the front of the shirt just says ƧAXET.
   45. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 28, 2021 at 02:29 PM (#6010493)
In general, yes. But everyone who saw Hack Wilson play is dead. I don't think inventing a new sub-category of team honors for such a guy is going to interest fans one way or another.

OK, how about Mark Grace?
   46. SoSH U at work Posted: March 28, 2021 at 02:57 PM (#6010495)
I think anyone good/popular enough gets the honor, regardless of the number.


With the Yankees, that isn't remotely close to being true. I'm sorry, but a team that has retired the numbers of the short-stinted (Reggie), the not beloved (Maris) or the replacement level violent drunk (Martin), but can't for two Hall of Famers who spent their entire careers in pinstripes (Lazzeri and Combs), a pitcher who did likewise then added 10 years as a pitching coach (Stottlemyre) or a Hall of Meriter who spent most of his career in New York, then added another 12 years on the coaching staff (Randolph) is not bestowing the honor in any rational way.
   47. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 28, 2021 at 03:33 PM (#6010497)
With the Yankees, that isn't remotely close to being true. I'm sorry, but a team that has retired the numbers of the short-stinted (Reggie), the not beloved (Maris) or the replacement level violent drunk (Martin), but can't for two Hall of Famers who spent their entire careers in pinstripes (Lazzeri and Combs), a pitcher who did likewise then added 10 years as a pitching coach (Stottlemyre) or a Hall of Meriter who spent most of his career in New York, then added another 12 years on the coaching staff (Randolph) is not bestowing the honor in any rational way.

It makes total sense if you think of the actual purpose. It's not about establishing a consistent hierarchy of merit. It's business; the point is to make money by making fans happy. Just like when people complain that the large playoffs don't let the best team win; that's not the point of the playoffs either.

Jackson and Martin were wildly popular; they broke the 15 year title drought. Randolph and Stottlemyre have plaques. Plenty of guys have plaques but not retired numbers: Ruffing, Reynolds, Gomez, O'Neill, Martinez, Gossage and Joe McCarthy are in that category.

The threshold for a retired number was much higher until the 1980's. Only Gehrig, Ruth, Dimaggio, Mantle, Stengel, Dickey, Berra, Ford, and Munson were retired before 1984. Up to that point, Combs and Lazzeri didn't cut it. By the time George realized that having special days to honor players was good business, and opened the spigots in the mid-1980s, Combs or Lazzeri were long dead, and no one along living fans much remembered them.
   48. SoSH U at work Posted: March 28, 2021 at 03:57 PM (#6010499)
The threshold for a retired number was much higher until the 1980's. Only Gehrig, Ruth, Dimaggio, Mantle, Stengel, Dickey, Berra, Ford, and Munson were retired before 1984. Up to that point, Combs and Lazzeri didn't cut it. By the time George realized that having special days to honor players was good business, and opened the spigots in the mid-1980s, Combs or Lazzeri were long dead, and no one along living fans much remembered them.


And yet, Long Dead Roger got his day.

They once had high standards. Then they had none. Sorry, their system is a mess, which is patently obvious. I expect this kind of Pro Bono Yankee Defense work from Clapper or Andy, but I'm surprised at you.
   49. The Yankee Clapper Posted: March 28, 2021 at 05:04 PM (#6010502)
With the Yankees, that isn't remotely close to being true.
The Yankees changed their approach somewhat under George Steinbrenner, who beneath his gruff exterior was a sentimentalist at heart. Retiring numbers for Elston Howard & Roger Maris were a make-up for some of the hardships they endured, and other fan favorites were honored for shorter stints that coincided with the Yankee Renaissance. Should they have gone back and applied the new standards to those who played earlier? Perhaps, and one day they might do so, but it isn’t a big issue, especially when many are already recognized in Cooperstown. BTW, Mel Stottlemyre has a Monument Park plaque, unveiled on Old Timers Day in 2015.
   50. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 28, 2021 at 05:10 PM (#6010503)
And yet, Long Dead Roger got his day.

Ummm, Maris was alive, and terminally ill, when he got his day.


They once had high standards. Then they had none. Sorry, their system is a mess, which is patently obvious. I expect this kind of Pro Bono Yankee Defense work from Clapper or Andy, but I'm surprised at you.


It's a mess b/c the goal is to make fans happy and make money. I'm not defending that, just stating what it is.
   51. SoSH U at work Posted: March 28, 2021 at 05:23 PM (#6010506)
Ummm, Maris was alive, and terminally ill, when he got his day.


I stand corrected. I didn't realize he and Martin had their numbers retired so long ago.
   52. Howie Menckel Posted: March 28, 2021 at 10:00 PM (#6010514)
no mirrors?

Well, the front of the shirt just says ƧAXET.

that's what the second mirror is for....
   53. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: March 29, 2021 at 05:48 PM (#6010604)
The Mets Hall of Fame players are all from 1969, 1973, 1986, and 2000.

Until they induct David Wright (and, maybe eventually, deGrom).
   54. SoSH U at work Posted: March 29, 2021 at 06:35 PM (#6010607)
The Mets Hall of Fame players are all from 1969, 1973, 1986, and 2000.


Until a few years ago, when Teddy Higuera finally got the call, the Brewers Hall of Fame was made up entirely of players from the 1982 club and old Braves.

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