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Wednesday, October 19, 2022

2022-23 NBA Kick-Off Thread

I estimate there are maybe 10-12 Primates left on this site, and their fathers are all the District Attorney.

Hombre Brotani Posted: October 19, 2022 at 10:09 PM | 608 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, best shape of his life, nba, off-topic

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   301. asinwreck Posted: November 01, 2022 at 10:00 PM (#6103646)
Flip like the Nets' coaching job.
   302. Fourth True Outcome Posted: November 01, 2022 at 10:08 PM (#6103648)
Have the Nets actually announced an intention to hire Udoka? Woj announced it, but he shares an agent with Udoka and clearly helped his camp get their story out first about the suspension. If that's as concrete as it is so far I could see the Nets backpedaling here.
   303. tshipman Posted: November 01, 2022 at 10:19 PM (#6103652)
People are not idiots. Everyone knows that when Woj reports something, it's out there on purpose.

Also, if you burn Woj and claim he didn't have the story right, he will bury you.
   304. Fourth True Outcome Posted: November 01, 2022 at 10:26 PM (#6103653)
Sure, there's a zero percent chance Woj went off half-cocked, but look at the wording on the ESPN story: the Nets are "moving towards" hiring Udoka, with an official announcement "as soon as Wednesday". That's plenty of wiggle room if the Nets decide it's too bad a PR look. Not saying they will, I assume they'll stick to their guns, but I don't think it's a completely sure thing yet.
   305. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: November 01, 2022 at 10:26 PM (#6103654)
People are not idiots. Everyone knows that when Woj reports something, it's out there on purpose.

Also, if you burn Woj and claim he didn't have the story right, he will bury you.
eh, woj did not get where he is by burning sources and waging vendettas.
   306. tshipman Posted: November 01, 2022 at 11:16 PM (#6103666)
Sure, there's a zero percent chance Woj went off half-cocked, but look at the wording on the ESPN story: the Nets are "moving towards" hiring Udoka, with an official announcement "as soon as Wednesday". That's plenty of wiggle room if the Nets decide it's too bad a PR look. Not saying they will, I assume they'll stick to their guns, but I don't think it's a completely sure thing yet.


The David Blatt return to the NBA!
   307. reech Posted: November 02, 2022 at 01:59 AM (#6103673)
I am just seeing how Durant sez he was shocked and I almost blew a beer out of my nose.
   308. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: November 02, 2022 at 09:07 AM (#6103680)
I am just seeing how Durant sez he was shocked and I almost blew a beer out of my nose.


Is that true, because hilarious if so.

KD: It's me or the coach
Joe Tsai: No
Joe Tsai: *fires coach*
KD: ?!?!?!

   309. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: November 02, 2022 at 11:06 AM (#6103687)
KD: It's me or the coach
Joe Tsai: No
Joe Tsai: *fires coach*
KD: ?!?!?!
i can't be the only one who sees joe tsai's name and, at least for a split second, think "wait, i thought his name was ming tsai?"
   310. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: November 02, 2022 at 12:27 PM (#6103696)
i just heard a pretty good point on the dan lebatard show:

what exactly is the league office doing right now?

- they were AWOL when draymond green coldcocked a teammate in practice

- they were AWOL as ime udoka was suspended for a year by the celtics, with no meaningful public facing explanation

- they're AWOL as kyrie irving is melting down in press conferences and on social media.


wtf, dave?
   311. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: November 02, 2022 at 12:49 PM (#6103701)
What Kyrie Irving thinks about me and my religion is not important to me, really. What hurt my heart in ways that still feel difficult to untangle was what came after. Sure, the Nets owner made a statement, and Nets broadcaster Richard Jefferson was critical of Irving on the air. The NBA issued a statement. The NBPA, where Irving is a vice president, also issued a statement. Everyone in basketball seemed very happy to issue statements—and then let what happened slide into the ether. (Notably, when reserve Miami Heat center Meyers Leonard used an antisemitic slur during a Twitch livestream last year, the league suspended him for a week and fined him $50,000. Both Heat coach Erik Spoelstra and longtime player Udonis Haslem spoke forcefully and swiftly about not tolerating antisemitic speech in the organization. Leonard, a marginal player, seems to be out of the NBA.)
During Monday’s broadcast, Eagle added that there are people with the Nets who want to have a “an actual dialogue with Kyrie about this, and would like to hear an acknowledgement from Kyrie about the reaction and an apology as well.” Re-listening to that on Tuesday morning, hours after the possible hiring of Udoka became news, I felt a familiar pang in my heart. I thought about all the Jewish team employees who are, like me, giving themselves the annual refresher course on the history of antisemitism so they can explain it to others. I thought about all the women who work for the Nets and the questions they rightly have about why the Nets are looking to bring in Udoka. This would be the place to say something inspiring, or just comforting—something about how this is the slow work toward change, or whatever. But I can’t see any evidence that Irving, or anyone with any real power within the Nets organization, is listening. They are moving ahead, impervious, through the world that imperviousness has made.


this is good ####.
   312. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: November 02, 2022 at 12:55 PM (#6103703)
This will make it seem like I'm taking spotlight away from NBA or Kyrie, but I feel like no one's really brought up that the movie is just available to watch on Amazon. Seems like that would be a bigger part of this saga but I guess not?
   313. spivey Posted: November 02, 2022 at 07:53 PM (#6103757)
I think I love this Cleveland team.
   314. jmurph Posted: November 02, 2022 at 09:50 PM (#6103826)
I don’t love that they look like they’re going to beat my team twice in a row, but yeah they’re good and it’s a likable group.
   315. KronicFatigue Posted: November 02, 2022 at 09:58 PM (#6103833)
What refs are the biggest company men? I imagine they'll be assigned Nets playoff games for their 1 and only round.
   316. Moeball Posted: November 02, 2022 at 10:07 PM (#6103840)
#311 If there are any Jewish women working in the Nets offices right now, they're either terribly frightened or looking forward to a big court settlement. Or both.
   317. PJ Martinez Posted: November 02, 2022 at 10:09 PM (#6103841)
Agreed on Cleveland. And these games between them and Boston have been great.
   318. tshipman Posted: November 02, 2022 at 10:17 PM (#6103846)
I feel really good about not being high on Jabari during the draft process.
   319. spivey Posted: November 02, 2022 at 10:55 PM (#6103863)
People ask me, regularly, if I think Brook Lopez should be in the Hall of Fame. Of course not. Or if he should have his jersey retired or a statue. No, I don't think so. But should he have a little munchkin statue somewhere in the stadium, placed in a corner such that it will scare children? Yes, I think so.

He is the best defensive player on this team. Better than Giannis and better than Jrue Holiday. They're basically the best defensive team in the NBA with him, and middle of the pack without him.

My thoughts on Brook Lopez.
   320. tshipman Posted: November 02, 2022 at 11:30 PM (#6103873)
People ask me, regularly, if I think Brook Lopez should be in the Hall of Fame.


I question your life choices.
   321. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 03, 2022 at 07:44 AM (#6103892)
"People come up to me and with tears in their eyes and ask me if I can put Brook Lopez into the Hall of Fame."
   322. jmurph Posted: November 03, 2022 at 07:47 AM (#6103893)
I feel really good about not being high on Jabari during the draft process.

I have just learned from Basketball Reference that he is Kwame Brown's cousin.

I doubt I've seen even a second of him playing in the NBA or college, but those are terrible early numbers. The idea is he's a big who can shoot, right? Is he supposed to be able to defend, or create off the dribble?
   323. spivey Posted: November 03, 2022 at 09:33 AM (#6103906)
Teams are always looking for the next Brook Lopez.
   324. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: November 03, 2022 at 10:02 AM (#6103911)
As a Detroit fan I am going back and forth between liking this Cleveland team and being annoyed that this is their third different run of being good during a period in which the Pistons have been various shades of bad throughout.
   325. spivey Posted: November 03, 2022 at 12:15 PM (#6103933)
I think with Jabari he was thought more of as a big wing rather than a big who can defend and shoot well from my recollection of the draft process, so you start with a guy who will be very good 3 and D. I still think the shooting should come around.

The defense is interesting. I've not seen him enough to know one way or the other in terms of what is his best position on defense. It's probably also early to say, though they're certainly using him as a big, which is a lot to ask a young guy who I don't think really played that way in college.

   326. bob gee Posted: November 03, 2022 at 12:26 PM (#6103934)
If Westbrook keeps up his recent play, it would be very good for the Lakers. I know last year he was refusing to come off bench, etc. My thought - has there ever been a high level peak player who has quickly adapted (positively) to a reduced role? My immediate comparisons were Iverson and Carmelo, and it took Melo a year out of the league to readapt.

Speaking of Melo, I'm assuming he's going to get signed later in the year as a bucket getter for a contender?
   327. aberg Posted: November 03, 2022 at 12:29 PM (#6103936)
Josh Primo story keeps getting weirder. The competing statements from the accuser's attorney and Primo's attorney both sound like they could plausibly be true and it's going to be very hard to come up with much to substantiate either version.
   328. aberg Posted: November 03, 2022 at 12:31 PM (#6103937)
If Westbrook keeps up his recent play, it would be very good for the Lakers. I know last year he was refusing to come off bench, etc. My thought - has there ever been a high level peak player who has quickly adapted (positively) to a reduced role? My immediate comparisons were Iverson and Carmelo, and it took Melo a year out of the league to readapt.


Vince Carter is the gold standard of a star player who adapted to being a role player, but that happened as a very smooth, gradual evolution. Jason Kidd also adapted and that was a bit faster. Both of them had shooting to fall back on to carry them into their twilight with diminished athleticism. Dikembe is another guy who stayed relevant way beyond being a star due to his interior defense. It's harder for me to imagine what Russ is going to do other than be an explosive, head-down battering ram.
   329. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: November 03, 2022 at 12:46 PM (#6103939)
Josh Primo story keeps getting weirder. The competing statements from the accuser's attorney and Primo's attorney both sound like they could plausibly be true and it's going to be very hard to come up with much to substantiate either version.
welcome to the oh so colorful world of non-violent sexual harassment, where everything you see is a different shade of grey.

there's a reason why one of the rallying calls of the #metoo movement was just to "believe women". choosing to believe women when they tell you that someone did something inappropriate is a way to directly counter the prevailing tendency, which is/was to say "oh, it's just another he said/she said situation" before doing nothing and burying the file.
   330. spivey Posted: November 03, 2022 at 12:51 PM (#6103942)
329 summed it up well.

Women deserve the benefit of the doubt. Also, someone who released the garbage statement that Primo did once he was waived but we didn't have reports on why yet does NOT deserve the benefit of the doubt. Maybe that's partially because of the lawsuit, but there wasn't any sign of accountability or remorse in that statement - it was the statement of someone who was trying to act like the victim in this situation. So GTFO.
   331. Gaelan Posted: November 03, 2022 at 01:38 PM (#6103948)
The statement from Primo's lawyer is pretty shocking. It manages to combine aggression, the language of therapeutic victimhood, and race all in one tight little package. It makes me believe him less, but that tells us something about the audience. I also think when read in the context of Jaylen Brown and Marcus Smart's quasi-defense of Udoka, and the complete unwillingness of the NBAPA to come down on Irving, tells us something about something, but I am not sure what.
   332. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: November 03, 2022 at 02:26 PM (#6103954)
The statement from Primo's lawyer is pretty shocking. It manages to combine aggression, the language of therapeutic victimhood, and race all in one tight little package. It makes me believe him less, but that tells us something about the audience. I also think when read in the context of Jaylen Brown and Marcus Smart's quasi-defense of Udoka, and the complete unwillingness of the NBAPA to come down on Irving, tells us something about something, but I am not sure what.
so you're saying it's an audition for the next vacancy on the supreme court.
   333. jmurph Posted: November 03, 2022 at 02:49 PM (#6103959)
Man, I just watched the full video from the press availability here and it sure as hell seems to me he pretty much stands by all the anti-Semitic conspiratorial bullshit in the thing he shared?
   334. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: November 03, 2022 at 03:11 PM (#6103962)
this is very, very good, from jemele hill:
In reality, Irving has joined a troubling club of high-profile Black male celebrities—also including the rapper Kanye West—who have stubbornly embraced conspiracy theories, particularly anti-Semitic ones, under the pretext of seeking a deeper truth about their own origins.
...
Irving later insisted that his being labeled anti-Semitic was “not justified.” I’m not sure which definition of anti-Semitic Irving is working with, but how else could someone characterize his support for a film that treats the Holocaust as an exaggeration or a falsehood?
...
In September, Irving posted an old video, from the conspiracy theorist Alex Jones. [...The] Nets star has publicly defended his actions and maintained that he didn’t support Jones’s reprehensible campaign against the surviving Sandy Hook families; he just felt that Jones was right about secret societies. How Irving could place any trust in someone who maliciously lied about the murder of more than two dozen people, including 20 children, is simply bewildering.
   335. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: November 03, 2022 at 03:23 PM (#6103964)
in case anyone isn't able to connect the dots here, kyrie irving is another person whose mind was poisoned by youtube's/facebook's/tiktok's self-radicalizing algorithms.

As far as YouTube goes, YouTube is the primary vector for flat-Earth, at least when it was coming up starting 2014 onward. Their algorithm just way disproportionately promoted flat-Earth content. So you could be watching something that’s only tangentially related to flat, like, I don’t know, 9/11 videos, and it would recommend Flat Earth because it was conspiracy content. Or you could be watching just astronomy videos and it would recommend a Flat Earth video. YouTube finally got wise to this problem after tons of criticism in 2019, so five years after Flat Earth video started skyrocketing, they changed their algorithm to stop promoting Flat Earth videos that much.
[...]
Flat Earth used to be a sort of small community. It was this one weird thing that not many people bought into. But over the past five years or so, I feel like there’s been a lot more bleedover between conspiracy realms. And some of that might be algorithmic as well. I have a fake Facebook page where I join a couple of conspiracy communities and then just see what it recommends to me. So if I’m looking at chem trails pages, it’s going to start recommending pages for this apocalyptic astrological conspiracy theory, which holds a special place in my heart, but I won’t get into that one. And so between Facebook recommending this crossover, YouTube recommending this crossover, TikTok’s algorithm — which is frankly terrifying to me, I don’t know how it reads your mind — there has been a lot more cross-pollination between conspiracy worlds. I will see major QAnon influencers on Telegram just drop a Flat Earth post and I’m like, OK, I don’t like that. But also, what does this even have to do with your theory? Let’s keep some compartmentalization. And that, unfortunately, is just not happening right now.
[...]
Where Flat Earth’s future lies is recruiting from other, more popular conspiracy theories. So we’ve seen the huge popularization of QAnon-type theories or of anti-vaccine theories, and I’m seeing those groups become distribution centers for other conspiracy movements, including Flat Earth. So I think that Flat Earthers are diversifying their message. I’m looking at Flat Earth pages that in 2017 were really on message only Flat Earth stuff. And now they’ll mix it up. They’ll have anti-vax, they’ll have election truther stuff, and that makes it a more palatable community for people who might not be completely on board with flat Earth. I think those are their new targets.
   336. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: November 03, 2022 at 03:45 PM (#6103968)
I’m not sure which definition of anti-Semitic Irving is working with


It's a common mistake, but as printed, .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address). Semitic is a linguistic family that includes Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic, Ethiopic, and ancient Assyrian. Kyrie is antisemitic but not necessarily anti-Semitic.
   337. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: November 03, 2022 at 03:52 PM (#6103970)
Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn
ESPN Sources: Philadelphia 76ers star James Harden has suffered right foot tendon strain and is expected to miss a month.
   338. DCA Posted: November 03, 2022 at 04:20 PM (#6103976)
   339. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 03, 2022 at 04:26 PM (#6103979)
OK, the second one is pretty funny. AD or KAT could play small forward?
   340. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: November 03, 2022 at 04:51 PM (#6103985)
It's just like ... many of these guests have nothing to add. Chiney Ogwumike was the worst, and I actually turned off the podcast. But it's also just less and less good writers like Arnowitz, Pelton and Beck and more and more of these TV people like Richard Jefferson, Shelbourne and McMahon.

sad co-sign.

still listening to the lowe post, the free duncan ones, game theory. sometimes realgm radio. maybe i'll revisit no dunks at some point.
   341. . . . . . . Posted: November 03, 2022 at 05:20 PM (#6103988)
i just watched the kyrie press conference, and oh my god.

Adam Silver is such a coward for letting this go. Can you imagine if all the facts were the same, but it was a white guy promoting this sort of vile stuff about black people and refusing to apologize, even quasi-doubling down? And they're just letting him play.
   342. Fourth True Outcome Posted: November 03, 2022 at 06:21 PM (#6103993)
Adam Silver is such a coward for letting this go. Can you imagine if all the facts were the same, but it was a white guy promoting this sort of vile stuff about black people and refusing to apologize, even quasi-doubling down? And they're just letting him play.

This is where I've been on the Kyrie issue and also (though to a somewhat lesser degree) the Udoka issue. All of the individual actors in both situations are doing what makes sense from their positions (I'm not including Kyrie's nonsense or Udoka's ambiguous transgressions in that, but otherwise), and yet the lack of any overarching league...anything has let them become big, loud, PR maelstroms. David Stern was overly heavy-handed a lot of the time, and one can certainly disagree strongly with some of the moves he made, but the league was well-served by his willingness to lay down the law when it was needed even if it made him the bad guy.

It's bizarre that Kyrie can publicly espouse such awful stuff with no real repercussions. He's clearly not the sort to apologize or back down just because he's wrong, but this would all be a lot less loud and dumb if he got suspended like Meyers Leonard did and it was privately made clear to him that he can believe what he likes but there will be consequences if he says hateful things in public while he's an NBA star.

It's similarly bizarre that a coach who everyone agrees was rightfully suspended for a year by the Celtics could be hired seven games into that season by another team. The Celtics clearly see the Nets hiring as a way to neatly have the mess taken off their hands, the Nets clearly see Udoka as a hail mary coaching hire that could solve their culture and defense issues, but it's a huge black eye for the league if you can step out of line sexually badly enough that you're canned and just pick up a new gig a month later like it's no big deal.

In both cases no one can take the overarching action needed to tidy up a loud mess that is a growing PR issue except the league itself, so where is Silver?
   343. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: November 03, 2022 at 07:07 PM (#6103997)
It's similarly bizarre that a coach who everyone agrees was rightfully suspended for a year by the Celtics could be hired seven games into that season by another team. The Celtics clearly see the Nets hiring as a way to neatly have the mess taken off their hands, the Nets clearly see Udoka as a hail mary coaching hire that could solve their culture and defense issues, but it's a huge black eye for the league if you can step out of line sexually badly enough that you're canned and just pick up a new gig a month later like it's no big deal.
eh...i think most people's initial reaction to udoka's suspension was more incredulous than that implies. as in, 'what could udoka have done that was so bad that he needed to be suspended for the year, but not bad enough that he needed to be fired immediately?'

i'm not sure that question has been answered yet, which gets to your final point:
In both cases no one can take the overarching action needed to tidy up a loud mess that is a growing PR issue except the league itself, so where is Silver?
yup.
David Stern was overly heavy-handed a lot of the time, and one can certainly disagree strongly with some of the moves he made, but the league was well-served by his willingness to lay down the law when it was needed even if it made him the bad guy
silver did force donald sterling out of the league very early in his tenure, and he seems to be guiding robert sarver to a similar fate, so i don't think it's fair to question silver's willingness to go to war over issues of morality.

but it's also hard to see the league office's response to what's happened over the last 2 months (draymond green, udoka and now irving) and think that silver's absence of leadership is anything other than intentional.
   344. tshipman Posted: November 03, 2022 at 07:33 PM (#6104000)
I mean, the clear difference is that Silver is running the league in partnership with the players on these issues.

Players don't have a problem with Kyrie or Udoka.

That sucks to be sure, but Silver is unwilling to risk a labor crisis this close to a new CBA.
   345. Fourth True Outcome Posted: November 03, 2022 at 07:49 PM (#6104005)
Shams bomb:
Nets statement on Kyrie Irving: “We are of the view that he is currently unfit to be associated with the Brooklyn Nets. We have decided that Kyrie will serve a suspension without pay until he satisfies a series of objective remedial measures…”
   346. bob gee Posted: November 03, 2022 at 08:32 PM (#6104032)
329 - I forgot about Vince Carter. His stepdown was gradual, but he took it very well.

I was always surprised Kidd aged so well. At one time I thought the Nets got the better end of Harris / Kidd.
   347. asinwreck Posted: November 04, 2022 at 08:21 AM (#6104191)
Plea in the Miles Bridges domestic violence case:
Bridges’ lawyer worked out a plea deal with Gascon’s office today, in which Bridges would plead no contest to one charge of felony domestic violence, and will accept three years of probation, while avoiding jail time.

As far as what the penalty now entails, Holmes reveals that Bridges has been ordered to attend a year’s worth of domestic violence counseling sessions and a year of parenting classes. Another element of his three-year probation is a 100-hour community service. Bridges will not be permitted to own any dangerous weapons, including guns or ammo. He was ordered to pay minimal fines as well. Bridges is also required to honor his former girlfriend’s 10-year restraining order, which mandates that he is to have no contact with her and must remain 100 yards or more away from her at all times. He will be permitted to keep shared custody of their children.
   348. RJ in TO Posted: November 04, 2022 at 09:38 AM (#6104194)
Given the Nets have decided to go full heel anyway, is there a reason they shouldn't sign Bridges and Primo? Just really lean into the role?
   349. asinwreck Posted: November 04, 2022 at 09:41 AM (#6104195)
Maybe Tsai could bring Robert Sarver and Donald Sterling into the ownership group.
   350. DCA Posted: November 04, 2022 at 09:45 AM (#6104196)
Conspiracy theory: Kyrie intentionally tanking his value to facilitate trade to the Lakers
   351. bob gee Posted: November 04, 2022 at 10:16 AM (#6104202)
Couldn't Kyrie have gone to the Lakers in the offseason? Decline player option, take the exception the Lakers had (8 million or so?).

Obviously that's a huge cut in salary, but if he really wanted out of Brooklyn, to be with Lebron, or other reasons, he could have made that move.
   352. Harlond Posted: November 04, 2022 at 10:16 AM (#6104203)
Kyrie has been careful to say only that “some things” in the documentary that is so important to him are false. So far the only claim in the movie he has explicitly rejected seems to be the Holocaust denial (but even there what he says is that he has never said the Holocaust wasn’t real, which is not the same as saying he believes the Holocaust in fact happened). I hope we find out what things he thinks are true. But then he probably could never come back, so we won’t.
   353. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: November 04, 2022 at 10:18 AM (#6104204)
Honestly, I would very much like to learn nothing additional about Kyrie Irving and his "Just Asking Questions" galaxy brain bullshit.
   354. spivey Posted: November 04, 2022 at 10:23 AM (#6104205)
This offseason will be interesting. Kyrie is clearly still a good player.

I think there's a chance he gets blackballed and forced out of the league, though. Also possible that he's forced out of the league just because nobody wants to deal with his antics, which have gotten way worse every year. What's wild is this is the year where you'd expect him to relatively keep his head down and out of trouble since he's a FA. I just don't think he can help himself.
   355. aberg Posted: November 04, 2022 at 10:27 AM (#6104206)
I mean, the clear difference is that Silver is running the league in partnership with the players on these issues.


To this point, I think Silver prefers to lead from behind and build a consensus to drive to a desired outcome rather than to make big edicts like Stern sometimes did. The upside of it is that it probably helps maintain some peace between most of the players, governors, and team management because they all have a stake in the outcome. The downside is that it can be slow and messy to get to consensus, and it sometimes looks like the league has just fallen down on the job. The recent examples of Sarver and Irving are both situations where the league never formally stepped in and it took about 50% longer to get to the desired outcome (Sarver agreeing to sell, Kyrie getting suspended), but they did get to the point where it seemed Silver wanted to go.
   356. . . . . . . Posted: November 04, 2022 at 10:40 AM (#6104208)
Kyrie hasn't really apologized for ####. Even his latest, craven "please pay me" statement says that he didn't intend to "disrespect" "Jewish cultural history" regarding the Holocaust. That could just as easily mean (and I think he does mean) that he doesn't necessarily believe it happened, but he's sorry that the sheeple who think it happened are mad at him.

This is New York, I can't be the only person with a dozen aunts and uncles killed in the Holocaust. If he's not going to release an unqualified statement - then I certainly can't cheer for him. Why would I spend $100 bucks to be "entertained" by Kyrie Irving?
   357. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: November 04, 2022 at 01:42 PM (#6104220)
fun fact:

youtube is currently recommending this video to me: "are jews rich?"

it has 100K+ views.


thanks kyrie.
   358. Dolf Lucky Posted: November 04, 2022 at 02:01 PM (#6104223)
Stiggles's posts 335 and 357 add to my collection of evidence for my belief that the internet has been a net negative for humanity. And the score ain't all that close.

I'd publish my findings but I don't think the algorithm will pull in readers.
   359. Fourth True Outcome Posted: November 04, 2022 at 02:52 PM (#6104230)
I think it's pretty inarguable that the current web 2.0 landscape, where privately-held walled gardens have build empires of ad and attention-driven revenue at the expense of privacy, the media as we knew it, local stores, and a big chunk of society and shared truth. Silicon Valley's libertarian mania and neoliberal deregulation have been a hell of a one-two punch, but I'm not sure that's completely the internet's fault, per se. We'll see if the distinction grows to ever matter again, though!
   360. spivey Posted: November 05, 2022 at 10:25 AM (#6104280)
I'm officially worried about Golden State, and frankly, most of the West.

I'm seeing why Pelton's model had Golden State for like 42 wins. They lost a lot of productive minutes from last year, and a lot of those minutes were size on the wing/PF that they haven't replaced. Their young players have regressed a bit. Klay and Draymond seem in decline. They cannot rebound at all.
   361. DCA Posted: November 05, 2022 at 10:34 AM (#6104281)
As a GSW fan, I'm a little worried, but not a lot. I would have spent to keep Payton and Porter, but those two wouldn't have helped out this year at all.

The starting lineup is very strongly positive, and the bench is terrible. That's not great - especially when you just gave $100 million to one of the bench guys, but I think it's more solvable than having bad starters. Other than Poole, everyone on the bench who has appeared this season is either very young or brand new to the team and organic improvment should be expected. If not, there are roster moves that can be made.
   362. DCA Posted: November 05, 2022 at 10:36 AM (#6104282)
Saturday morning diversion: blowing up the Nets

1) Durant to the Jazz for Lauri, THT, Agbaji, Kessler, Bolmaro, 3 FRP. Jazz are instantly contenders again, without giving up anything of importance and keeping most of the picks received for Gobert/Mitchell. For the Nets, there isn't likely going to be a better package than 3 future firsts, 3 recent firsts, a 21 y/o rotation piece (THT), and a ready-now like-for-like replacement (Lauri).

2) Kyrie + Joe Harris to the Lakers for Westbrook. No picks involved. Nets get off Kyrie's headache and Harris's $20m owed next year. Lakers get better on the court without spending draft capital, and LeBron is probably the only person who can bless a Kyrie acquisition and make it palatable to the public.

3) Seth Curry to the Nuggets for a 2029 FRP. Curry fits into the Morris TPE and gives Denver another shooter that they really could have used last year (this year they lead the league in 3pt% but I think last year's middle-of-the-pack performance is closer to true talent).

4) Ben Simmons + Royce O'Neale to the Knicks for Fournier, Randle, 3 FRP. Knicks make a splash acquisition that they haven't been able to do recently, add a solid role player in O'Neale, and get off their two biggest millstones. Who knows if Simmons still has a return to all-star form in him, but he's the same age as Brunson with complementary skills and makes less than Fournier + Randle who don't have that upside.

In: Westbrook, Fournier, Randle, Lauri, THT, Agbaji, Kessler, Bolmaro, 7 FRP
Out: Durant, Kyrie, Simmons, O'Neale, Harris, Curry, Morris (waived), Watanabe (waived)

Once 12/15 rolls around, Mills gets shipped off to a contender. Westbrook chasing triple-doubles while surrounded by cromulent vets and promising but untested/unready youth reminds me a bit of the 2020-21 Wizards, and I think a run at the play-in is possible, which is better than bottoming out when you want to keep the fans coming and don't control your own picks.
   363. DCA Posted: November 05, 2022 at 10:56 AM (#6104283)
Another deal I like for the Jazz in this situation is Beasley + NAW to the Suns for Shamet + Crowder. The Jazz are hard-capped by the Sexton S&T which makes it hard to use the Ingles TPE to add pieces to contender this year. But this deal is even on 2022-23 salary and Shamet fits into that TPE. And if combined with the Durant deal, it may be possible to structure it so that the Jazz get the full $15.5 TPE for Beasley available to add pieces to next year's non-hard-capped team.
   364. PJ Martinez Posted: November 05, 2022 at 11:27 AM (#6104286)
362: Three first-round picks for Ben Simmons?! The same Ben Simmons who's putting up a sub-10 PER at age 26 for a 3-6 team on a $35m salary (which goes up to $38m next season and $40m the year after that)? Sure, he might regain his (flawed but sometimes terrific) previous form, but does he even have positive trade value right now? I kind of doubt it.

Not to be a killjoy (I'm all for Saturday diversions, obviously), but I don't think any of the non-Brooklyn teams in those proposals say yes. Curry, who's 32, has played one game this season (and a first-round pick that far out is highly valuable); Harris, who's 31, has yet to look good post-major-injury, and Irving is Irving; Utah obviously gets better, but better enough to contend? Given how weak the West looks right now, I suppose it's possible, but I wouldn't bet on it (and I'm guessing Ainge wouldn't either).

Edit: to offer something constructive, I think the play for a rebuilding Brooklyn is to trade Durant and (one way or another) cut ties with Irving but keep Simmons and try to help him thrive again, even if that's just a prelude to trading him in the offseason, say.
   365. DCA Posted: November 05, 2022 at 11:42 AM (#6104290)
I originally had 2 firsts in the Simmons deal, but I think 3 is probably fair. Knicks are getting 4 things of value (O'Neale, Simmons, subtract Fournier, subtract Randle) - perhaps none of those are worth a first individually, but I think all of them are worth at least 1/2 of a first, and I for one would certainly roll the dice on Simmons for his salary + a future first, and I think the Knicks are desperate enough to do so also.

Lakers, who the hell knows, if there were any logic in this situation, Westbrook would already be a FA, having been bought out by the Pacers.

Curry whatever, make it lottery protected or a second. He has value, but not to the Nets.

I do think this is a win-win for Durant. Enough that it still makes sense for both sides if the price is a fair amount higher or lower.
   366. spivey Posted: November 05, 2022 at 11:51 AM (#6104291)
I don’t think Simmons has positive value at this moment. He shouldn’t anyways.
   367. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: November 05, 2022 at 02:09 PM (#6104314)
Ben Simmons has been terrible this year and has shown no sign that he won't be terrible. He is a negative player right now.
   368. Fourth True Outcome Posted: November 05, 2022 at 03:51 PM (#6104351)
I agree Simmons has negative value; for that reason if I were in charge of the Nets I'd get the best draft equity I could for Durant, trade Kyrie for peanuts or just send him home, and put the ball in Simmons' hands with shooters to try to rediscover his ability/value. It'd be nice of they had their picks to get value if he can't, but even without I think they may as well see what je can be if they're tearing the KD/Kyrie thing down.
   369. reech Posted: November 05, 2022 at 06:15 PM (#6104357)
Nobody is touching Kryie right now.
Simmons is useless.
Maybe if you made a trade giving away KD as long as they take Kyrie or Simmons too.
   370. spivey Posted: November 05, 2022 at 06:37 PM (#6104362)
I am all in on the Orlando Banchero, Wagner, Bol, Carter Jr core. They won't be good this year but if they can get competent guard play in the next 2-3 years they could become good very quickly.

I'm also fully aboard the Cavs will be the 3 seed in the East at worst train.
   371. GregD Posted: November 05, 2022 at 06:59 PM (#6104364)
Can’t believe you guys don’t want to give up three firsts for the obligation to pay $40 million on 24-25 to a guy playing at replacement level right now.

If he somehow were a free agent, what would he get today?
   372. bob gee Posted: November 05, 2022 at 07:44 PM (#6104373)
I think Simmons would get a 12MM, 1 yr deal with a team option for the 2nd/3rd year at some amount (20MM? 25MM?) which basically means if he doesn't progress, they wouldn't be on the hook for him.

I know the Wizards and Hornets aren't the top of the league, but the Nets have looked very different these last two games. Everyone is moving, but that's what happens when you have younger players in the lineup.

Interesting fact (if Statmuse's numbers are correct) - the Celtics and the Nets have both been better with Irving out of the game than in. The Celtics difference was something like 70% to 61% winning, the Nets was something like 56 to 54% with him out.
   373. asinwreck Posted: November 05, 2022 at 08:14 PM (#6104385)
Don't forget Simmons is coming off back surgery and just had his knee drained less than a month into the season. Somehow, he is the Nets' most reliable starting guard.
   374. spivey Posted: November 05, 2022 at 08:18 PM (#6104386)
The end of the Magic/Kings game is worth catching.
   375. . . . . . . Posted: November 06, 2022 at 01:36 PM (#6104538)
I think most teams would require 2 FRPs to take on the Ben Simmons Albatross.
   376. jmurph Posted: November 06, 2022 at 02:07 PM (#6104540)
So the Knicks should have probably done the Mitchell deal? If the Mitchell/Brunson defensive concerns were the issue, that I get, but otherwise I don’t think their young guys are particularly exciting.
   377. spivey Posted: November 06, 2022 at 04:21 PM (#6104553)
Interesting notes from the first 9 games:

- Clippers are 27th in SRS (-5.90) despite being 4th in defense.
- Boston is 23rd in defense
   378. HBO disappeared Oscar Posted: November 06, 2022 at 06:06 PM (#6104570)
Bobby Portis has been a lot of fun to watch. Dude brings the energy.
   379. HBO disappeared Oscar Posted: November 06, 2022 at 06:18 PM (#6104572)
Also want to recognize Steph Curry playing great at almost 35 running and running all game long.
   380. spivey Posted: November 06, 2022 at 07:43 PM (#6104579)
So the Knicks should have probably done the Mitchell deal? If the Mitchell/Brunson defensive concerns were the issue, that I get, but otherwise I don’t think their young guys are particularly exciting.


I like some of them, but in more complimentary player sort of ways. I'm fine with them just being a kind of solid team with a lot of picks. Mitchell is playing incredible right now, but they wouldn't be 7-1 with a league leading margin of victory if they had him, you know?

I think trying to be a major player in a year or two when the cap is spiking and some of the bad contracts come off the books seems like a smart, if unsexy, plan.
   381. spivey Posted: November 07, 2022 at 09:11 AM (#6104617)
Another interesting note from early games:

Jazz are already one-third of the way to beating their O/U total (8-3, O/U was 23.5)
   382. . . . . . . Posted: November 07, 2022 at 10:39 AM (#6104627)
I like some of them, but in more complimentary player sort of ways. I'm fine with them just being a kind of solid team with a lot of picks. Mitchell is playing incredible right now, but they wouldn't be 7-1 with a league leading margin of victory if they had him, you know?

I think trying to be a major player in a year or two when the cap is spiking and some of the bad contracts come off the books seems like a smart, if unsexy, plan.


They have a bunch of guys who would be terrific 3rd-7th best players on a championship team. Which comes off as damming with faint praise, but its not the end of the world to develop those guys, have your picks, not be terrible, not be openly antisemitic, and see how the chips fall in 1-2 seasons.
   383. PJ Martinez Posted: November 07, 2022 at 11:40 AM (#6104635)
So, where do people think Kevin Durant will be playing his home games in the second half of this season?
   384. asinwreck Posted: November 07, 2022 at 11:54 AM (#6104637)
If Kawhi Leonard is permanently hobbled, Durant to the Clippers to pair Kawhi and Simmons on the bench writes itself.
   385. tshipman Posted: November 07, 2022 at 12:11 PM (#6104639)
Jazz are already one-third of the way to beating their O/U total (8-3, O/U was 23.5)


This has surprised me, mostly because I thought the Jazz *wanted* to be bad to pick up Wemby/Scoot. The three guys who are leading the charge for the Jazz are Mike Conley, Markkanen and Kelly Olynyk.

A lot of this is still smoke and mirrors, with a 32% opponent 3p shooting percentage, but even if you regress them significantly, they're at a positive point differential.

I can't imagine that we're going to keep this up--Conley is old, Kelly Olynyk is at 59% from 3, and Markkanen is at career highs basically across the board.

So maybe like 44 wins for end of season? Is that better for the Jazz in the long run than 23 wins and getting one of Wemby or Scoot?
   386. spivey Posted: November 07, 2022 at 01:03 PM (#6104647)
So maybe like 44 wins for end of season? Is that better for the Jazz in the long run than 23 wins and getting one of Wemby or Scoot?


I'm sure they debate this in the front office daily.

This is fun and probably an exciting breath of fresh air as a Utah fan. But Wemby is a generational draft prospect. I think you have to trade these guys for nothing to get them off the team.
   387. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: November 07, 2022 at 01:53 PM (#6104660)
Markkanen and Sexton are young enough that they could have a role in the near future. But yeah, if Ainge wants to go in the toilet, Conley, Olynyk and Jordan Clarkson should be hitting the bricks.
   388. Fourth True Outcome Posted: November 07, 2022 at 04:17 PM (#6104699)
Boston is 23rd in defense

My informed/homer take on this it that it's been interesting to watch how the Celtics have defended this season, but I'm not (yet) concerned. I think there are two pieces here:

First, they're playing not just without Robert Williams, whose absence is obviously the biggest reason the defense has fallen off, but also Daniel Theis, who was a perfect third center on last year's team to stay consistent in how they schemed with two bigs when Horford or Williams was either on the bench or unavailable. Grant Williams deserves more of a look as a smallball center, Luke Kornet is an interesting project, Noah Vonleh has had moments that make him seem like he could be a good fit, and Mfiondu Kabengele looks like the kind of reclamation project that could be a valuable rotation piece in a year or two, but Blake Griffin looks completely cooked and that's it. None of those guys is the kind of low-drama minutes eating center that Theis was, and that has been very obvious with Timelord on the shelf to start the season. I'm very interested to see how the third-string center minutes are distributed as the season goes on, but really a lot depends on Williams coming back and being impactful. He was good enough on one leg in the playoffs last year that I don't know that he needs to be 100%, but they have a lot more margin for error if he is.

Second, though somewhat relatedly, Mazzulla has been much more willing to play smallball lineups with one center than Udoka was at any point last season. This is of course very related to the above center limitations of the roster, but also is something a lot of Cs watchers wished they'd tried more of last season and which Brogdon only helps with. Part of the reason they have the best offense in the league so far this season has been how much smallball they've played using lineups with four good shooters. It'll be interesting to see if Mazzulla, who was one of the main architects of last year's defense, is able to improve the defending (and defensive rebounding) of those lineups while maintaining the offense. Time will tell if they can, of course.

I think their defensive ceiling will depend on how good the smallball defense can become and how good Robert Williams is when he returns, so it doesn't seem that worrying that the defense isn't very good yet. If they're still 23rd in defense in February, on the other hand, I will be very worried.
   389. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: November 07, 2022 at 04:22 PM (#6104701)
I do think Markkanen is better than people thought (def better than I thought). Not that he's going to play at this level, though he's also shooting below his talent level from 3 to make up for some regression elsewhere.

I guess the big question on tanking is how bad can your record even get? Even if they trade away Olynyk, Conley, and Clarkson are they gonna be as bad as the Rockets, Pistons, Hornets, Magic, or Lakers? And they already have 5-7 wins banked over all of them.

@Ben_Dowsett
·
54m
As of today, @FiveThirtyEight
projects the Jazz to finish 47-35 - just two games worse than last season.

They have an 82% chance of making the playoffs, and currently have the 5th-highest win projection in the West.


I'm not sure how good 538 projections actually are, but it's getting harder for me to believe this team is bad, even with some obvious good luck thus far. If I thought they could get bad enough to have good odds at Victor I'd still support tanking because obviously this team has no superstar or plausible way to get one outside of the draft, but this team is so enjoyable to watch I'm not gonna be upset if instead they're like a 45 win team.

Also I love Jarred Vanderbilt so much. He is such a menace on the court, and if he can just learn to eliminate a couple stupid pointless fouls and keep shooting corner 3s at a decent clip, he's gonna be a defensive monster for them.
   390. tshipman Posted: November 07, 2022 at 04:30 PM (#6104704)
I'm not sure how good 538 projections actually are, but it's getting harder for me to believe this team is bad, even with some obvious good luck thus far. If I thought they could get bad enough to have good odds at Victor I'd still support tanking because obviously this team has no superstar or plausible way to get one outside of the draft, but this team is so enjoyable to watch I'm not gonna be upset if instead they're like a 45 win team.


The risk is that you're the 2014 Phoenix Suns, right? You win mid 40s, but you have no foundation for future success and you end up chasing that overperformance.
   391. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: November 07, 2022 at 04:36 PM (#6104705)
The risk is that you're the 2014 Phoenix Suns, right? You win mid 40s, but you have no foundation for future success and you end up chasing that overperformance.


Yup, and funnily enough they're the team that immediately came to mind when I started wondering if this team is gonna keep winning.
   392. tshipman Posted: November 07, 2022 at 06:34 PM (#6104723)
My informed/homer take on this it that it's been interesting to watch how the Celtics have defended this season, but I'm not (yet) concerned. I think there are two pieces here:


One more piece.

2022: opponent 3p% - 33.9%,
2023: opponent 3p% - 37.0%,

Just this alone is the difference between a 115 DRTG and a 112 DRTG.

/boring schtick
   393. tshipman Posted: November 07, 2022 at 07:58 PM (#6104732)
Totally normal news.

Clippers coach Tyronn Lue said forward Kawhi Leonard is out indefinitely as the team continues to exercise caution with its star forward while he works his way back from reconstructive knee surgery.

“He’s progressing and he’s getting better, so that’s the most important thing,” Lue said, per the Associated Press. “There’s really not a timeframe of when he’s going to be back.”

   394. Moeball Posted: November 07, 2022 at 08:47 PM (#6104740)
#385 Is part of Utah's good start just schedule so far? Reason I'm wondering is thinking back a few years ago I remember a season where Utah got off to a poor start, was something like 15-20 at one point and everyone was wondering how a team expected to win around 50 games was doing so poorly? It turned out to all be a mirage of the schedule. They had started the season with an unusually high % of road games, plus even their home games were coming against mostly top contending teams. Once the schedule evened out and they got some extended home stands and even road trips were now against weaker teams, then they were fine. They were at their expected 50 wins by end of season.
   395. Moeball Posted: November 07, 2022 at 08:47 PM (#6104741)
#388 Yes, I would say not having RW in the middle is hurting Boston's defense quite a bit. Even with him, though, I think remembering back to the Finals last season, wasn't he really giving the Warriors fits through the early part of that series, but then the blocks went down and he didn't seem to be as much of a factor as Golden State won those last 3 games? Did Kerr make some kind of offensive adjustment? Or am I not remembering that correctly?
   396. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: November 07, 2022 at 09:54 PM (#6104748)
The new Wolves PBP guy is pretty good, so there's one decent outcome from the offseason.
   397. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: November 07, 2022 at 09:56 PM (#6104751)
Thankfully, the Wovles fans are booing this unbelievably lacklustre performance.
   398. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: November 07, 2022 at 10:15 PM (#6104754)
trade machine: who says 'no'?
   399. asinwreck Posted: November 07, 2022 at 10:22 PM (#6104757)

The new Wolves PBP guy is pretty good, so there's one decent outcome from the offseason.
Michael Grady joined the Nets as sideline reporter in 2017 and left for the Wolves' job this summer. His timing is excellent.
   400. tshipman Posted: November 07, 2022 at 10:23 PM (#6104759)
Does the Mormon church have a stated position on the Black Israelite thingy? Or are they like polite enough to not comment due to professional courtesy or something?

In any case, Utah says no.
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