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Tuesday, September 06, 2022

2022-23 Preseason NBA thread

I estimate there are 10 or 12 clever intros left for this thread, but I can’t think of any.

Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: September 06, 2022 at 05:25 PM | 271 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, best shape of his life, nba, off topic

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   1. sardonic Posted: September 06, 2022 at 06:06 PM (#6094831)
First! Let's also not forget about the Jazz as a dumping ground (which Lowe/Marks brought up in the latest Lowe Post). I'd be shocked if Westbrook was on the Lakers on opening day.
   2. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: September 06, 2022 at 06:28 PM (#6094836)
Pre-season? Didn't the season just end?
   3. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: September 06, 2022 at 07:00 PM (#6094843)
It's ridiculous to pin all the expectations on any 17 year old but... I think Scoot Henderson is going to be really, really good. Important to the tank math.
   4. tshipman Posted: September 06, 2022 at 08:15 PM (#6094859)
I feel like in 6 months, Scoot vs. Wemby is going to be a very deeply divided conversation.
   5. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 06, 2022 at 08:43 PM (#6094865)
OK, a pre-season question for the crowd. What team(s) - excluding your home or favorite team - are you most interested in watching this year?

Right now the top two in the East are Cleveland and Brooklyn. I kind of love the ... "what the heck is this team even and how will it work?"
In the West, I think 3 of the 4 California teams are really interesting (or might be - sorry Kings).
   6. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: September 06, 2022 at 08:59 PM (#6094866)
Cleveland and Memphis for me.
   7. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: September 06, 2022 at 09:00 PM (#6094867)
Cleveland and Denver or Memphis here. I consider Toronto my home team these days, but I'm not that fascinated by them, regardless.
   8. Adam M Posted: September 06, 2022 at 09:11 PM (#6094871)
Cleveland and Brooklyn in the East, Minnesota and Memphis in the West. And the Lakers, if Westbrook stays.
   9. jmurph Posted: September 07, 2022 at 08:49 AM (#6094971)
This conversation is a good place for a reminder that League Pass will only cost $99.99 this year.

What team(s) - excluding your home or favorite team - are you most interested in watching this year?

Unfortunately I actively dislike the other good teams in East, though I'm interested to see how Cleveland looks. In the West the answer is always Denver, Portland, and Minnesota, and I'm also looking forward to the Pelicans and the 15 or so games that PG and Kawhi play together.
   10. Thok Posted: September 07, 2022 at 09:17 AM (#6094973)
I feel like this is the most excited people have ever been for a Cleveland team, even compared to various Lebron years.
   11. asinwreck Posted: September 07, 2022 at 09:38 AM (#6094980)
I could see Anunoby on the Grizzlies.
   12. asinwreck Posted: September 07, 2022 at 09:38 AM (#6094981)
WNBA playoffs-adjacent news in the wake of the Aces defeating the Storm:
WillieGRamirez
@WillieGRamirez

Multiple sources have told me the NBA want to finally announce expansion to Las Vegas and Seattle during the Clippers’ two preseason games at Seattle’s Climate Pledge Arena, on Sept. 30 and Oct. 3.

The Lakers then play two preseason games in Vegas on Oct 5 and 6.
   13. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 07, 2022 at 10:13 AM (#6094984)
I feel like this is the most excited people have ever been for a Cleveland team, even compared to various Lebron years.


They are on my list of teams to watch (some of that being it will be fun to compare them and MN, for obvious reasons), but some of it might be recency. Their big trade just happened and is fresh in everyone's minds.
   14. KronicFatigue Posted: September 07, 2022 at 10:50 AM (#6094998)
Would have been cool to give the expansion teams draft picks before they start and then other teams could be "loaned" those players. Aka the Sonics draft player x with the 1st pick, and then with the 20th pick some team drafts the rights to that player for only two years.
   15. DCA Posted: September 07, 2022 at 11:31 AM (#6095009)
I'm kind of excited to see if Detroit can take a step forward - more likely next year than this year, but I think they have a future contending core surrounded by exactly the type of solid vet role players to help them develop but not stand in their way.
   16. sardonic Posted: September 07, 2022 at 11:36 AM (#6095013)
In practice I just don't have a lot of time to watch games anymore, but I'm curious about the Nets, Clippers and Denver as potential true contenders with major question marks that we haven't seen in their full form (at least recently). Then in the next tier are up and coming teams that could always arrive early so they're on the radar: Memphis and Cleveland. Then in rubbernecking territory there are always the Knicks (RJ Barrett! Jalen Brunson! Julius Randle! the magic of the Garden!).
   17. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: September 07, 2022 at 11:57 AM (#6095020)
Easily Denver for me. If Murray and Porter are healthy and generally themselves, they could be great. Even if not, Jokic is magical to watch on his own.
   18. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 07, 2022 at 12:35 PM (#6095025)
OK, a pre-season question for the crowd. What team(s) - excluding your home or favorite team - are you most interested in watching this year?

TOR is going to sneak up on alot of people who think they're only the 4th best team in their division. their depth of athleticism is off the charts, and they legit have 9 guys who are 6'8-6'10, who can defend 3/4/5+ positions.

as for the west, i don't believe in DAL at all. that team has one good player, and a toolshed full of misfits, with a coach and an owner that i can't stand. i want to see them implode.
   19. asinwreck Posted: September 07, 2022 at 04:31 PM (#6095077)
I'm always fascinated to see what the hell the Nets will be, but I am most curious to see if Memphis makes another leap forward.

I dread the start of the Bulls' season without Lonzo Ball.
   20. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: September 07, 2022 at 04:46 PM (#6095079)
I think my top two league pass teams are Minnesota and Cleveland, both because they're fascinating teams and rooting for Rudy and Donovan. Glad NBA significantly cut the price of league pass this year too, which I think is gonna convince me to buy the entire league package since there's about zero reason to watch any Jazz games this season.
   21. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: September 07, 2022 at 04:51 PM (#6095081)
I dread the start of the Bulls' season without Lonzo Ball.

Yeah. It'll change once they start playing, and I feel like the Bulls will start off strong again. But without Lonzo (and I'm being overly pessimistic here) for maybe the whole year - they haven't said that, but they also said he'd be back before last year ended and he still doesn't sound anywhere near close to being ready - and with the same structural problems as last year - Vuc, not enough 3pt shooting, overly dependent on DeRozan being great - it's hard to see how the Bulls are as good as last year. Oh well, better this than the Hoiberg or Boylen years again.

---

Most of the obvious teams have been given, and I'll be interested in them too (Cleve, Denver, BKN, Minne), but I think I'm most interested in the Raptors and the Grizzlies. And least interested in the Celtics and Knicks, no matter how good or bad they'll be.
   22. kcgard2 Posted: September 07, 2022 at 05:02 PM (#6095084)
Cleveland, Minnesota, Denver, and for one people haven't named - Detroit. I kind of love what Detroit did this offseason and they have lots of players I find interesting. I'll also be interested in the Lakers if LeBron is healthy, interested in Milwaukee and Miami, and will be following Jalen Green, Jabari Smith (my #1 pick) and Tyty Washington in Houston. Intrigued by what Houston could have brewing in a year or three. Is no one interested in the Pelicans? They have such a wide range of outcomes and some of them could be really cool.
   23. Fourth True Outcome Posted: September 07, 2022 at 05:25 PM (#6095090)
I concur with more or less everyone about the interesting teams, and with kcgard2 that the Pelicans should be really interesting this year. Portland is also interesting; tship suggested at the end of the last thread that Lillard might come available this year, and I'm not sure I agree with that but do think that this season is a bit of a make-or-break one for Lillard's future in Portland. (I don't think Portland will want to get rid of Lillard until Jody Allen sells the team, as I imagine it's easier to find good buyers when you have a star player than when you're starting to rebuild.)
   24. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 07, 2022 at 06:49 PM (#6095112)
Expansion, Seattle, Vegas, Draft Assets, Ignite

Is the NBA ready to move forward on its long-rumored plans to expand to Seattle and Las Vegas? Willie G. Ramirez of The Associated Press (Twitter link) says he has heard from multiple sources that the league wants to announce expansion when those two cities hosts preseason games this fall. The Clippers will play in Seattle on September 30 and October 3, while the Lakers are set to play in Vegas on October 5 and 6.


I would love to see expansion, but mostly in the hopes that the Wolves can move to the East where the travel and watch times will be better.
   25. Fourth True Outcome Posted: September 07, 2022 at 06:56 PM (#6095115)
I would love to see expansion, but mostly in the hopes that the Wolves can move to the East where the travel and watch times will be better.

I know nothing of plan specifics, but if they're adding two teams in the West, I'd assume they'd rebalance conferences by moving Memphis to the Eastern Conference and leave the Twolves be, wouldn't they?
   26. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: September 07, 2022 at 07:28 PM (#6095125)
Is the NBA ready to move forward on its long-rumored plans to expand to Seattle and Las Vegas?

Remember when the 2007 NBA ASG was in Las Vegas, and it looked like the NBA would the first major pro league in Vegas? Now, they could actually be the last, behind the Golden Knights, Raiders, possibly the A's and a rumoured MLS club!
   27. asinwreck Posted: September 07, 2022 at 09:37 PM (#6095163)
better this than the Hoiberg or Boylen years again.

It is nice that the team has competent management again. The three years after Jimmy Butler was traded were actually more dispiriting to experience than the Tim Floyd era. At least in 1999, you could savor the previous decade of dominance instead of hoping Lauri Markkanen might come back from injury with some ability to play defense.

   28. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 08, 2022 at 07:22 AM (#6095189)
I know nothing of plan specifics, but if they're adding two teams in the West, I'd assume they'd rebalance conferences by moving Memphis to the Eastern Conference and leave the Twolves be, wouldn't they?


It is possible. Because of the Texas teams and New Orleans from a travel and geographic proximity perspective (which I care about and they might not) I think it makes more sense to leave Memphis with those teams and move the Wolves East (despite Memphis being actually East of Minneapolis). Basically, most of the Western teams on the eastern side of the West are in the South (Awkward sentence, sorry), except MN, which is kind of all alone (The nearest teams are Eastern and it is not close).

They have not added the teams or obviously announced a re-org, so who knows how they would do it, but I do know without new teams MN is staying west.
   29. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: September 08, 2022 at 09:01 AM (#6095199)
The Wolves have by far the longest travel of any other team, and that would be pretty significantly relieved by moving East.
   30. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: September 08, 2022 at 09:44 AM (#6095208)
I know nothing of plan specifics, but if they're adding two teams in the West, I'd assume they'd rebalance conferences by moving Memphis to the Eastern Conference and leave the Twolves be, wouldn't they?

Moving Minnesota would make a lot more sense. To add to the Wolves' fans, I'll throw in a bit more detail on the subject:
Here is a map of the current franchises sorted by division. There are a few ways in which it’s suboptimal. Most glaringly, the Northwest Division is literally all over the map. Portland is in the same division as Minnesota and Oklahoma City despite being roughly 1500 miles and two time zones away from either. Further, Minnesota makes no sense in the Western Conference. It is closer to EVERY team in the East’s Central Division than it is to ANY team in the West. . .

For the purposes of expansion, the biggest takeaway from this map is that both expansion teams should be in the West. That would enable Minnesota to move to the East, where it logically belongs.
   31. . . . . . . Posted: September 08, 2022 at 10:42 AM (#6095213)
Minnesota makes no sense in the Western Conference


Come on. Its west of the Mississippi. Its west of St. Louis, west of Memphis, west of New Orleans, and just barely east of KC. In any two-conference alignment, just based on where the big cities are in the US, you're going to have some of Minn/StL/Memphis/NO/KC in your western conference, depending on what markets you're in. Minnesota makes a ton of sense in the Western Conference.

If the NBA was divided into three or four conferences, would be a different story, because when you split the country that way there's a natural collection of "Big 10" markets that align together.
   32. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 08, 2022 at 11:01 AM (#6095219)
Did you look at the map? And west of the Mississippi is not super compelling given where it sits, by that logic if they moved to St. Paul (just a few miles away) they would clearly be EAST.
   33. . . . . . . Posted: September 08, 2022 at 11:49 AM (#6095228)
Did you look at the map?


Yes, go look up the longitude of the 30 NBA cities, sort them into the 15 furthest west and 15 furthest east and tell me which group Minnesota is in.

(I'll do the spoiler - its one of the 15 furthest west cities.)

Ceterus paribus, Minnesota should be in the Western conference. So it makes "sense" for it to be there.

The argument, as I understand it, is that notwithstanding that Minnesota is one of the 15 furthest west cities, for special reasons (I assume the cultural/travel connection to Chicago/Milwaukee), it makes sense for Minnesota to play in the East; and for a team that is east of Minnesota to be moved to the West. In which case (a) OK, but which city should go west? and (b) don't all the cities that are east of Minnesota also have cultural/travel connections within the east?

Put differently: There are 18 (if you exclude Texas/OKC) to 22 (if you include Texas/OKC) markets that for geographic/cultural/travel reasons, would fit better in a Eastern group. This is because more than half of the US population lives in the East. More fundamentally, this is because people live where it rains because they die without water. 22 of the 30 NBA markets are east of the line where agriculture is possible without irrigation. If you split 30 teams into two conferences of 15, 7 of your eastern teams need to sit with the 8 teams that are (mostly) located on the other side of the big desert and semi-desert where no one lives. This sucks for travel purposes. There is a natural pod of Texas+OKC, so it makes sense to move those 4 teams together to the west. Who are the other 3 teams, and why isn't Minnesota one of them?
   34. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 08, 2022 at 12:29 PM (#6095229)
Yes, go look up the longitude of the 30 NBA cities, sort them into the 15 furthest west and 15 furthest east and tell me which group Minnesota is in.


What a weird way to look at it. I should think most sensible schemes would look at time zones, travel time, natural rivals, and such and not be slaves to longitude. But sure if you impose a rigid grid on the US then MN should be in the west.

And hey, like I said, the NBA might have its own criteria. Maybe they will learn to love the grid as well.

The argument, as I understand it, is that notwithstanding that Minnesota is one of the 15 furthest west cities, for special reasons (I assume the cultural/travel connection to Chicago/Milwaukee), it makes sense for Minnesota to play in the East; and for a team that is east of Minnesota to be moved to the West. In which case (a) OK, but which city should go west? and (b) don't all the cities that are east of Minnesota also have cultural/travel connections within the east?


You are kind of ignoring the premise of the whole conversation. No one here is saying move MN east right now. Not me, not the two articles linked above. However, if two franchises are added, and added to the geographic west as has been rumored, which team will move East in order to balance things? That is the actual question.

The two obvious choices are either MN or Memphis. A slave to the grid will nominate Memphis. Someone who cares about travel times and natural rivalries will prefer to move MN. But at this point, it is all speculation.
   35. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: September 08, 2022 at 12:44 PM (#6095231)
Come on. Its west of the Mississippi. Its west of St. Louis, west of Memphis, west of New Orleans, and just barely east of KC. In any two-conference alignment, just based on where the big cities are in the US, you're going to have some of Minn/StL/Memphis/NO/KC in your western conference, depending on what markets you're in. Minnesota makes a ton of sense in the Western Conference.

But you don't have to call them the Western Conference and Eastern Conference, that's just a convenient shorthand description for a collection of teams.

If instead you labeled the Western Conference as "Conference A" and the Eastern Conference as "Conference B," then you'd agree that the Wolves should be in Conference B because all the teams in reasonably close proximity to them are in Conference B. This is very different from Memphis, which is close to several teams in each conference.

The NBA could go back to its alignment from the 1976-77 season, when Milwaukee, Chicago, Indiana, and Detroit were in the "West" and New Orleans, Houston, and San Antonio were in the "East." Then the Wolves would logically fit in the Western Conference and the Grizzlies would belong in the Eastern Conference.

I don't see that type of radical realignment happening, but expansion gives the league an easy opportunity to put Minnesota in a division and conference that are a much better fit geographically.
   36. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: September 08, 2022 at 01:33 PM (#6095247)
The argument, as I understand it, is that notwithstanding that Minnesota is one of the 15 furthest west cities, for special reasons (I assume the cultural/travel connection to Chicago/Milwaukee), it makes sense for Minnesota to play in the East; and for a team that is east of Minnesota to be moved to the West. In which case (a) OK, but which city should go west? and (b) don't all the cities that are east of Minnesota also have cultural/travel connections within the east?

But the overall travel burden is higher on the Wolves. Because, yes, they are one of the 15 furthest west teams, but the distances between the EC and WC teams means that they have the most distance to travel.
   37. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: September 08, 2022 at 01:58 PM (#6095259)
Expand to Seattle and, because owners will apparently be there though it isn't where I'd pick, Vegas, move Minnesota to the East, apologize to the Grizz.
   38. . . . . . . Posted: September 08, 2022 at 02:53 PM (#6095272)
The two obvious choices are either MN or Memphis. A slave to the grid will nominate Memphis. Someone who cares about travel times and natural rivalries will prefer to move MN. But at this point, it is all speculation.


Memphis's closest NBA neighbor is Atlanta. Next is New Orleans, after that, Indy. It is really freakin' far - 550-600 miles! - from the Texas/OKC pod. All you guys are advocating for is screwing Memphis (or NOP, which also doesn't belong in the West) for the benefit of Minny. Which is fine, but its ridiculous to say that Minneapolis doesn't make sense in the west - there are three cities on the border, and two of them have to get screwed.
   39. sardonic Posted: September 08, 2022 at 04:24 PM (#6095284)
Based on a cursory glance at the NBA divisions, it feels like part of the problem is not just that Minny is in the Western Conference (fwiw both Minnesota and Nashville are in the Western Conference in the NHL), but that it's in the Northwest division with (checks notes) OKC, Denver, Portland and Utah. Granted, I think teams play only one extra game against their division, but in the NHL Minnesota and Nashville are in the Central Division with Arizona, Chicago, Colorado, Dallas, St. Louis and Winnepeg and in the NFL Minnesota is in the NFC North with Chicago, Green Bay and Detroit while Tennessee is in the AFC South with Indianapolis, Houston and Jacksonville.

   40. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 08, 2022 at 04:44 PM (#6095286)
i've said it before and i'll say it again:

the southeast division should be in the western conference. #### florida.
   41. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 08, 2022 at 04:56 PM (#6095288)
Periodic geographic alignments are just part of sports leagues. Travel costs, natural rivalries, and time zones seem to be the biggest factors, catalyzed by expansion or relocation.
   42. asinwreck Posted: September 08, 2022 at 05:36 PM (#6095301)
I'm more curious to learn who'll own these franchises than I am of potential realignment options. Last year, speculation had Masai Ujiri join a Seattle ownership group.

I'm also curious to see if Starbucks will be allowed within a mile of the arena.
   43. Fourth True Outcome Posted: September 08, 2022 at 06:38 PM (#6095313)
i've said it before and i'll say it again:

the southeast division should be in the western conference. #### florida.

Who says no:

The Western Conference gets:
- Orlando Magic
- Miami Heat
- Atlanta Hawks
- Charlotte Horbobnetcats
- Nerlens Noel

The Eastern Conference gets:
- Minnesota Timberwolves
- Memphis Grizzlies
- Las Vegas team to be named later
- Seattle team to be named later
- Jahlil Okafor
- 3 2027 2nd round picks
   44. tshipman Posted: September 08, 2022 at 08:13 PM (#6095335)
Easy no for the West. Getting the Heat isn't worth giving up the Grizzlies. That's a win now move that may not even pay off this year. Plus you have to give up Jah.

(In regards to the whole "which team should go to the East" conversation, I have always thought New Orleans was the most "eastern" team, but I don't really give a ####)
   45. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 08, 2022 at 09:47 PM (#6095352)
The Western Conference gets:
- Orlando Magic
- Miami Heat
- Atlanta Hawks
- Charlotte Horbobnetcats
- Nerlens Noel
that's where you made your mistake.
   46. Thok Posted: September 08, 2022 at 11:41 PM (#6095372)
The division question is also tricky. For example, if the NBA goes to 8 four-team divisions, where do you put Washington?
   47. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 09, 2022 at 06:54 AM (#6095386)
The division question is also tricky. For example, if the NBA goes to 8 four-team divisions, where do you put Washington?

east:
A: BOS, NYK, PHI, WAS
B: BRK, CLE, DET, TOR
C: CHI, IND, MIL, MIN
D: ATL, BRK, CHO, MEM

west:
A: LAL, MIA, ORL, SEA
B: DAL, HOU, NOP, SAS
C: DEN, OKC, POR, UTA
D: LAC, GSW, PHX, SAC


i think you have to start by acknowledging that what's best for the NBA is to break up the LA and NYC teams. once you do that, everything else just kinda works out.
   48. JJ1986 Posted: September 09, 2022 at 07:21 AM (#6095388)
But you broke Brooklyn in half...
   49. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 09, 2022 at 07:30 AM (#6095390)
#47. The West A division needs to lose ORL and gain an awesome natural rival for two of the remaining teams (and fill out the four corners bingo card) - BOS.
   50. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 09, 2022 at 08:09 AM (#6095391)
But you broke Brooklyn in half...


We are all Brooklyn.
   51. . . . . . . Posted: September 09, 2022 at 10:30 AM (#6095413)
Here's the best alignment I can come up with if the objective is to make all teams travel as similarly as possible. It adds to the travel time of the core East teams while subtracting from the teams in the center and leaving the West mostly unchanged. I think it has a longer median/mode travel time than the current alignment, but it's fairer.

Northern Conference:
TOR
NYK
PHL
MIL
CLE
BOS
BRK
CHI
DET
MIN
POR
UTA
POR
IND
DEN

Southern Conference:
MIA
WAS
ORL
ATL
CHO
MEM
DAL
NOP
GSW
OKC
LAL
LAC
PHO
SAC
SAS
   52. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 09, 2022 at 01:18 PM (#6095449)
But you broke Brooklyn in half...
cross them off then.
#47. The West A division needs to lose ORL and gain an awesome natural rival for two of the remaining teams (and fill out the four corners bingo card) - BOS.
i like the cut of your jib.
   53. sardonic Posted: September 09, 2022 at 05:45 PM (#6095517)
Here's my shot at it:

Eastern Conference - Atlantic Division: NYK, BRK, BOS, TOR, MIA, WAS, PHL, ORL

Eastern Conference - Big 10 + ACC: MIL, CLE, CHI, DET, MIN, IND, CHO, ATL

Western Conference - Big 12 + MWC: UTA, DEN, MEM, OKC, SAS, HOU, DAL, NOP

Western Conference - Pacific Division: GSW, LAL, LAC, PHO, SAC, SEA, LAS, POR
   54. tshipman Posted: September 09, 2022 at 08:13 PM (#6095541)
In season tournament will apparently be a real thing as soon as 2023-2024.

Here's the carefully vetted trial balloon release:

Current framework of NBA In Season Tournament as soon as 2023-24, per sources: - Cup games through November - 8 teams advance to single-elimination Final in December; other 22 continue with regular season - All games part of normal 82-game schedule; one extra for two Final teams
   55. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 09, 2022 at 11:17 PM (#6095563)
Current framework of NBA In Season Tournament as soon as 2023-24, per sources: - Cup games through November - 8 teams advance to single-elimination Final in December; other 22 continue with regular season - All games part of normal 82-game schedule; one extra for two Final teams
if you want it to mean anything, that's not the way to do it.

cut the regular season to 72 or 66 games, and just make the damn cup it's own thing. the NBA already has the framework for how to do it: players get their normal 2 week checks during the group stage; playoffs get paid out on a per share basis, as a percentage (47-59%, or thereabouts) of the basketball related income that was generated by the new format.
   56. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: September 10, 2022 at 12:18 AM (#6095565)
Recently I learned that the WNBA already does an in season tournament that's exactly along the lines of the above.

The first two regular season games each team plays against each conference rival count towards the parallel tournament standings, then the East winner and West winner have a regular season game double as the final. (I assume the schedule is engineered so that such a game always exists in the second half-ish of the season.)

I'd literally never heard of this before, and there seemed to be basically no fanfare around it even by WNBA standards, but point being, the NBA tried this exact structure and somehow I guess concluded it worked?
   57. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: September 10, 2022 at 10:55 AM (#6095583)
The WNBA created the Commissioner's Cup as a "pay attention to us despite COVID" thing, similar to the "MLS is Back" tourney in 2020. I think it's great; I'd like to see all pro sports do it. (I even created an FA Cup-style tournament in my OOTP game!)
   58. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 10, 2022 at 11:16 AM (#6095584)
Griner’s problems are not just in Russia. I have been shocked by Americans’ reactions to Griner’s imprisonment. It is not just that so many Americans aren’t outraged enough. It’s that so many—especially in the right-wing media—are actually celebrating her detainment. They are trying to turn Griner into an enemy and a criminal, in a way that reveals a long-standing animosity toward those who are Black and athletic and who use their platform to speak out against injustice in America.
...
Former President Donald Trump also got in on the Griner-bashing. In an appearance on The Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Show, he called her a “potentially spoiled person … loaded up with drugs.” He said that it would not be worth it for the State Department to try to release a Russian prisoner in exchange for her freedom.
...
To them, Griner is ungrateful and undeserving of freedom and compassion; she isn’t American enough to be saved. This is the politics of dehumanization. A headline in The American Conservative says it all: “Is Brittney Griner Worth It?”

Of course she’s worth it.

   59. . . . . . . Posted: September 10, 2022 at 11:31 AM (#6095585)
Brittany Griner is a domestic abuser with a long reputation of being an unpleasant personality. It’s no shock that people aren’t moving mountains to bring her home.
   60. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 10, 2022 at 12:05 PM (#6095588)
Brittany Griner is a domestic abuser with a long reputation of being an unpleasant personality. It’s no shock that people aren’t moving mountains to bring her home.
so, you think the united states government should let russia throw her in a cancel culture coffin, then?
   61. SoSH U at work Posted: September 10, 2022 at 12:49 PM (#6095593)

The WNBA created the Commissioner's Cup as a "pay attention to us despite COVID" thing, similar to the "MLS is Back" tourney in 2020. I think it's great; I'd like to see all pro sports do it. (I even created an FA Cup-style tournament in my OOTP game!)



I've been long pushing for a baseball version, starting with a tournament at Single A, two winners advancing up to a Double A tournament on up through the major leagues. To the best of my knowledge, you might be the first person who agrees with some version of this idea.

I think the NBA's proposal here isn't ideal, but I think it's definitely a good step to take.
   62. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: September 10, 2022 at 01:16 PM (#6095595)
A humble proposal:

North American Conference:
Milwaukee Bucks
Boston Celtics
LA Clippers
Atlanta Hawks
Miami Heat
Charlotte Hornets
New York Knicks
Denver Nuggets
New Orleans Pelicans
Detroit Pistons
Toronto Raptors
Houston Rockets
Oklahoma City Thunder
Portland Trailblazers
Golden State Warriors



Continental Conference:
Philadelphia 76ers
Chicago Bulls
Cleveland Cavaliers
Memphis Grizzlies
Sacramento Kings
Orlando Magic
Dallas Mavericks
Brooklyn Nets
LA Lakers
Indiana Pacers
San Antonio Spurs
Phoenix Suns
Minnesota Timberwolves
Utah Jazz
Washington Wizards
   63. . . . . . . Posted: September 11, 2022 at 07:56 AM (#6095743)
so, you think the united states government should let russia throw her in a cancel culture coffin, then?


We don’t “let” the Russians do anything - we don’t control them. If you are saying, do I think we should let a dangerous arms dealer out of prison to bring home a wife-beater who voluntarily went to Russia to make extra money? No, I don’t.
   64. DCA Posted: September 11, 2022 at 12:23 PM (#6095750)
Are there any significant trades likely to happen before the season begins? Looks like most teams are set.

Westbrook to Indy makes so much sense, but I'm not sure I give it better than 50/50 odds to happen. Indy has leverage, LAL has none but seems to be trying to hold the line. The two other deals that I'd like to see are further deconstruction of Utah.

(1) Bojan + Clarkson to CHA for Gotter Hammerung + Kai Jones + future 1st. Utah brings back a fan favorite and auditions a young big. CHA gets needed firepower for this year and clears salary next year.

(2) Conley to NOP for DeVonte' Graham + salary. Conley has seemed washed at times, but the stats still love him and he's an upgrade on DeVonte' who is the weakest link in the Pels rotation. Jaxon Hayes is the cheapest single piece that can even out the salaries, and is a interesting upside play for the Jazz. Garrett Temple + Naji Marshall + a future 1st would also work.
   65. DCA Posted: September 11, 2022 at 01:02 PM (#6095751)
Rudy Gay to Boston (replaces Gallo, fits in the Juancho TE) for a 2023 second-rounder wouldn't be a bad idea for either team.

Deconstructing the Jazz on fanspo is fun!
   66. tshipman Posted: September 11, 2022 at 01:23 PM (#6095754)
I think my position is that if you want me to take Conley, you have to give me assets, Utah. That's a lot of dead money.
   67. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 11, 2022 at 01:27 PM (#6095755)
(2) Conley to NOP for DeVonte' Graham + salary. Conley has seemed washed at times, but the stats still love him and he's an upgrade on DeVonte' who is the weakest link in the Pels rotation. Jaxon Hayes is the cheapest single piece that can even out the salaries, and is a interesting upside play for the Jazz. Garrett Temple + Naji Marshall + a future 1st would also work.

this would also be acceptable, imo.
   68. asinwreck Posted: September 11, 2022 at 01:47 PM (#6095758)
Regarding potential trades, I wonder how much the expectation that the salary cap will rise to $134 million in 2023-24 will shape potential landing spots not only for well-paid vets like Conley but also imminent free agents like Myles Turner.
   69. tshipman Posted: September 11, 2022 at 02:58 PM (#6095763)
this would also be acceptable, imo.


Tough for Rudy Gay to be in that deal.

Edit: whoops, I thought that Rudy Gay trade posted above was real.
   70. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 11, 2022 at 03:32 PM (#6095766)
an unfortunate update to a previous post:

The Ringer’s beloved friend and colleague Jonathan Tjarks passed away on Saturday night. Jon is survived by his wife, Melissa, and his son, Jackson. He was one of the first people hired at The Ringer when we began the company, and was one of our most steadfast voices over the years. His loss is incalculable, and our thoughts are with Jon’s family during this time.

If you want to help, we’ll direct you to this GoFundMe page, which directly assists the Tjarks family. We would also like to reshare Jon’s astonishing piece from March, in which he wrote with such clarity, humor, and wisdom about his cancer diagnosis, his family, and his future. Our futures are dimmer without him. Please keep his family in your thoughts.
   71. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 11, 2022 at 03:34 PM (#6095767)
than Strauss @SherwoodStrauss
Re-releasing this Jonathan Tjarks podcast on The Meaning of Life. He's brilliant in it. Rest in Peace, Jon. We love you.
https://t.co/07gy40yNtQ
   72. asinwreck Posted: September 13, 2022 at 12:09 PM (#6095942)
Baxter Holmes@Baxter
Phoenix Suns majority owner Robert Sarver has been suspended for one year from the Suns/Mercury, fined $10 million and must complete a training program focused on respect and appropriate conduct in the workplace, the NBA announces.
   73. Fourth True Outcome Posted: September 13, 2022 at 12:28 PM (#6095946)
That seems like a mediocre compromise between kicking him out of the club and letting him slide, though $10 million may be enough to get the attention of a non-billionaire and noted cheapskate. I don't envy whoever is tasked with running his training program.
   74. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 13, 2022 at 01:55 PM (#6095956)
I read that it was the highest allowable fine.
   75. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: September 13, 2022 at 02:28 PM (#6095958)
Glad to see the ruling on Sarver.
   76. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: September 13, 2022 at 03:35 PM (#6095962)
my understanding (very well could be wrong!) is that the suspension was maxed as well. the next step might well have been voting to remove carver from ownership.
   77. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 13, 2022 at 05:22 PM (#6095985)
from defector:

Interestingly, the report “makes no finding that Mr. Sarver’s workplace misconduct was motivated by racial or gender-based animus.” The report says this in light of witness accounts describing Sarver as impulsive and ignorant, just a guy with “sophomoric” sense of humor and no filter. But it’s hard to square the idiot joker who didn’t know any better explanation with, say, Sarver being told not to use the n-word as early as 2004, and continuing to use it several times between then and 2017. Maybe the report’s authors thought Sarver was an equal-opportunity harasser, motivated by general animus rather than any specific strain of hatred. There are all kinds of words for this type of person in the language, but none of them are the kind that get used in the reports that fancy law firms write at the behest of pro sports leagues. None of those words are especially exonerative, either.
   78. tshipman Posted: September 13, 2022 at 08:55 PM (#6096025)
I certainly have worked with guys like that. They aren't explicitly racist or sexist, they just have never bothered to understand how their actions influence other people around them.

Because they aren't burning crosses or firing women, they think that they aren't the problem.

I would go so far as to say that this behavior is common with men of a certain age.
   79. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: September 13, 2022 at 09:40 PM (#6096032)
Just today, my wife told me about a coworker, a nice retired teacher, who said that something was a first world problem, then leaned over and said in sotto voce, “or as we call it at home, a white problem.”

We have a ways to go in this country.
   80. Fourth True Outcome Posted: September 14, 2022 at 12:10 PM (#6096070)
A Dallas judge dismissed Nerlens Noel's suit against Rich Paul, sending it instead to NBPA arbitration. "In sum, the Court has determined that a valid, enforceable agreement to arbitrate exists between the parties."
   81. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: September 14, 2022 at 03:48 PM (#6096102)
my understanding (very well could be wrong!) is that the suspension was maxed as well.

per silver, i, and this, was mistaken.
   82. Fourth True Outcome Posted: September 14, 2022 at 04:33 PM (#6096111)
It's been interesting how much of the NBA media has been critical of Silver and the NBA's decision here. It will be interesting to see both if this gets sustained attention and pressure from the press and, in particular, the players, and if so whether the league is willing to take further steps or if the owners will circle their wagons.
   83. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: September 14, 2022 at 06:52 PM (#6096139)
I'd assume that Sarver is getting a ton of pressure behind the scenes to sell. I am a known Silver fanboy so grain of salt but I'd totally believe his hands were meaningfully tied here, and/or he's counting on the press outcry to ramp up said pressure.
   84. tshipman Posted: September 14, 2022 at 08:37 PM (#6096157)
It's been interesting how much of the NBA media has been critical of Silver and the NBA's decision here. It will be interesting to see both if this gets sustained attention and pressure from the press and, in particular, the players, and if so whether the league is willing to take further steps or if the owners will circle their wagons.


No one wants harsh scrutiny on past statements. Not owners, not players, not media. If there weren't explicit actions taken, Sarver rides this out.
   85. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 14, 2022 at 09:00 PM (#6096165)
let's not forget about how hard mark cuban fought to keep donald sterling in the league:
"I think there's a [league] constitution for a reason, right?" Cuban said before Game 4 of the Mavericks-San Antonio Spurs series. "Because this is a very slippery slope. What Donald said was wrong. It was abhorrent. There's no place for racism in the NBA, any business I'm associated with, and I don't want to be associated with people who have that position.

"But at the same time, that's a decision I make. I think you've got to be very, very careful when you start making blanket statements about what people say and think, as opposed to what they do. It's a very, very slippery slope.
[...]
"In this country, people are allowed to be morons," Cuban said. "They're allowed to be stupid. They're allowed to think idiotic thoughts.
[...]
"Within an organization like the NBA, we try to do what's in the best interest of the league, and that's why we have a commissioner and a constitution, and I think Adam will be smart and deal with Donald with the full extent available. But, again, if you're saying a blanket, 'Let's kick him out' -- I don't want to go that far because it's not about Donald, it's not about his position, it's about his mess -- and what are we going to make a decision on?
[...]
"But regardless of your background, regardless of the history they have, if we're taking something somebody said in their home and we're trying to turn it into something that leads to you being forced to divest property in any way, shape or form, that's not the United States of America. I don't want to be part of that."



whether cuban's comments are best interpreted as a statement of principle, rather than a defense for the misdeeds that were occuring in his own front office, that's an exercise best left up to you, the reader.
   86. asinwreck Posted: September 14, 2022 at 09:20 PM (#6096171)
We are starting to see vociferous calls by the players to boot Sarver. Tamika Tremaglio, the executive director of the National Basketball Players Association issued a statement that read in part:
Mr. Sarver's reported actions and conduct are horrible and have no place in our sport or any workplace for that matter....I have made my position known to Adam Silver regarding my thoughts on the extent of the punishment, and strongly believe that Mr. Sarver should never hold a managerial position within our league again."
The new executive director would not issue such a statement without consulting with the union's executive committee (at the very least).

LeBron also has weighed in:
LeBron James @KingJames
Read through the Sarver stories a few times now. I gotta be honest…Our league definitely got this wrong. I don’t need to explain why. Y’all read the stories and decide for yourself. I said it before and I’m gonna say it again, there is no place in this league for that kind of
LeBron James @KingJames
behavior. I love this league and I deeply respect our leadership. But this isn’t right. There is no place for misogyny, sexism, and racism in any work place. Don’t matter if you own the team or play for the team. We hold our league up as an example of our values and this aint it.

I imagine tomorrow will bring more.
   87. asinwreck Posted: September 14, 2022 at 09:38 PM (#6096175)
This will resonate in Arizona. Chris Paul:
Chris Paul @CP3
I am of the view that the sanctions fell short in truly addressing what we can all agree was atrocious behavior. My heart goes out to all of the people that were affected.
   88. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 14, 2022 at 09:55 PM (#6096179)
John Hollinger @johnhollinger
Pretty clear nutkick by CP3 on Alvarado here. Wonder if the league office will have something to say about it tomorrow.
https://twitter.com/johnhollinger/status/1519158551175958528
   89. tshipman Posted: September 14, 2022 at 11:00 PM (#6096191)
I guess I would ask what further steps the league is supposed to take. They're not going to be successful at taking the franchise away from Sarver unilaterally.
   90. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: September 15, 2022 at 09:27 AM (#6096211)
i think it comes down to "will the other owners want the nba to force a sale" (with whatever press and legal costs and whatnot that goes along with that).
the answer to that will almost always be no, unless the owner in question is really imperiling their revenue.
   91. asinwreck Posted: September 15, 2022 at 09:46 AM (#6096214)
I don't think Adam Silver is the intended audience for these messages. (Messages to Silver, as Tremaglio indicated, were communicated in private.) If ABC/ESPN, TBS/TNT, State Farm, Pepsi, and the NBA's other corporate partners see Sarver as too toxic, they will put pressure on the owners.

It's not an accident that LeBron James and Chris Paul were the first players to issue statements last night. How many of the NBA's major sponsors have deals with those two? Is State Farm now worried about Sarver's continued ownership of one of the NBA's teams? Specifically the one that employs Chris Paul?
   92. spivey Posted: September 15, 2022 at 09:53 AM (#6096216)
I agree with 90. I think the Sterling thing maybe caused a false expectation of how easy it would be to force out an owner who doesn't want to be forced out.

Sarver completely denied all of the allegations way back, and most of them were proven to be true. A bunch of people broke NDAs and relived trauma for this investigation and it's pretty disappointing that this is the most they could or would do.

That said, I am looking forward to dzop's regularly scheduled "Billionaires aren't bad people, actually" post on the topic.
   93. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: September 15, 2022 at 10:24 AM (#6096227)
A bunch of people broke NDAs and relived trauma for this investigation and it's pretty disappointing that this is the most they could or would do.

this is the thing i focus on most, yeah.

i mean, i know no shortage of people that things like these have happened to. most of them didn't report it to hr because nothing good then happens. those that did then found that either the infractor faced no consequences or they themselves were retaliated against or...
paraphrasing both adam silver and an old amex ad - i guess ownership has its privileges.
   94. tshipman Posted: September 15, 2022 at 11:11 AM (#6096232)
i think it comes down to "will the other owners want the nba to force a sale" (with whatever press and legal costs and whatnot that goes along with that).
the answer to that will almost always be no, unless the owner in question is really imperiling their revenue.


I don't think Adam Silver is the intended audience for these messages. (Messages to Silver, as Tremaglio indicated, were communicated in private.) If ABC/ESPN, TBS/TNT, State Farm, Pepsi, and the NBA's other corporate partners see Sarver as too toxic, they will put pressure on the owners.


I guess I don't see how pressure would make someone sell. The NBA doesn't have a mechanism for forcing owners to sell. They got lucky with Sterling where someone came along with a ridiculous offer in cash, plus Sterling was about to be declared mentally unfit by his spouse.
   95. . . . . . . Posted: September 15, 2022 at 11:14 AM (#6096233)
Man it literally takes two seconds to look up the NBA bylaws. Article 13 and 14 are the relevant provisions. You can't force a guy out because he's an ####### or you don't like his speech. And even if you could, you need a 3/4ths vote of the other teams to terminate the ownership.

Y'all used to the typical at-will employment where you can pressure for someone to be fired because its not worth the headache for Important Business to be dragged through the mud on twitter to protect someone who is fundamentally fungible (and we are all fundamentally fungible). The Suns are Sarver's property; you can't just take it away. The best the League can hope for is to threaten to humiliate him, but see Dan Snyder, if the guy's prepared to tolerate public humiliation then the league is stuck. (And fwiw, the NFLs bylaws explicitly permit taking away a team with the requisite vote for Sarver-like sins; the NBA bylaws don't.)

This isn't based on any expertise in this particular area, but like, guys, google the primary documents before speechifying. They are all public.

   96. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: September 15, 2022 at 11:56 AM (#6096243)
who said anything about bylaws or rules?
you force someone out by creating conditions where they perceive themselves as better off by leaving. pretty tough to do with the superwealthy.
   97. Fourth True Outcome Posted: September 15, 2022 at 12:49 PM (#6096257)
I agree strongly with 91, that the statements by the NBAPA, LeBron, and Chris Paul aren't to convince Silver, they are to wage a PR campaign with the public and league's sponsors to make retaining Sarver seem untenable. I also strongly agree with Der-K, that the appropriate focus here is on the victims of Sarver who were brave enough to tell the truth about what happened to them, and how wan this punishment seems in that light.

This isn't based on any expertise in this particular area, but like, guys, google the primary documents before speechifying. They are all public.


From the NBA Constitution, section 13a:
The Membership of a Member or the interest of any Owner may be terminated by a vote of three fourths (3/4) of the Board of Governors if the Member or Owner shall do or suffer any of the following: (a) Willfully violate any of the provisions of the Constitution and By-Laws, resolutions, or agreements of the Association.

I'll concede that none of the other enumerated article 13 reasons for termination match this situation, but what are all of the resolutions and agreements of the Association? I'm pretty confident that if the NBA and its owners decide that Sarver needs to go they will be able to find or create a resolution that gives them coverage to exercise Article 14. The issue is that the rest of the owners don't have the appetite to force Sarver out. We'll see if the NBAPA and players can shift that; I hope they do. But any certitude that it won't happen is as baseless as confidence that it won't.
   98. tshipman Posted: September 15, 2022 at 01:02 PM (#6096259)
But any certitude that it won't happen is as baseless as confidence that it won't.


There's absolutely zero chance that Sarver is forced to sell because he said the N word 5 times, and in some cases repeating what someone else had said. If you start forcing NBA owners to sell if they ever said the N word, you basically don't have any owners.

   99. MGS Hamster Posted: September 15, 2022 at 01:08 PM (#6096263)
What are the players legal options? Can Chris Paul and Devin Booker refuse to report to work and claim a hostile work environment? Could players sign an affidavit promising not to sign with Phoenix in the future? I'm sure the CBA has some restrictions on this.

One advantage the players would have is that Sarver's not the kind of guy who will bleed money over this. He is too cheap for that. But they have to find a way to threaten his franchise value to get any pressure on him.
   100. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: September 15, 2022 at 01:43 PM (#6096273)
if i were a betting man, i'd guess that sarver doesn't go anywhere and that this doesn't boil over into real pressure.
i'm not one.
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