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Tuesday, September 06, 2022

2022-23 Preseason NBA thread

I estimate there are 10 or 12 clever intros left for this thread, but I can’t think of any.

Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: September 06, 2022 at 05:25 PM | 684 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, best shape of his life, nba, off topic

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   301. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 27, 2022 at 07:20 PM (#6098118)
flip.
   302. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: September 28, 2022 at 01:14 AM (#6098177)
Bummed about Ball. He was/is my personal favorite among the Lakers lottery picks.
   303. Lonnie Smith for president Posted: September 28, 2022 at 10:49 AM (#6098185)
Re: 292, there is a stranger-than-fiction series that wrote itself 2009-2013 during Griner's time at Baylor. Like Winning Time, this story is contemporary while encompassing the modern history of women's basketball, from Sonja Hogg to Mulkey to Griner and beyond. Entertainment/education values notwithstanding, Mulkey is an ugly person. On the short lists of best players and best coaches in her profession, for sure, but wow. Bobby Knight-level ugly. This latest non-statement is an unnecessary bit of evidence for her ugly person's body of work.
   304. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 28, 2022 at 08:08 PM (#6098254)
Jemele Hill @jemelehill
If I Just Work Here Were A Person
https://twitter.com/jemelehill/status/1574864821824016384
things are going well in phoenix, thank you for asking.
   305. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: September 29, 2022 at 11:57 AM (#6098324)
That seems kind of weird given Monty's reputation as a players' coach. Maybe not Monty's fault given the way the Suns have basically jerked Ayton around during this contract process.

I am rooting for Ayton,. Through no fault of his own, he'll always be seen as the guy drafted before Luca. It seems like Ayton works on his game and plays hard. I would love to see him and Booker have a long-term career together.
   306. spivey Posted: September 29, 2022 at 12:00 PM (#6098326)
I mean, Monty and Ayton clearly don't get along well. That's beyond the contract stuff. It's hard to imagine how they don't deal him as soon as they're contractually able. Also makes sense that they felt they had to keep the salary slot and just grin and bear it.

Jae Crowder is also kicking up a lot of dust as he leaves.

It's a weird situation.
   307. DCA Posted: September 29, 2022 at 01:08 PM (#6098334)
If the Pacers can't get 2 picks along with Westbrook, Ayton is a nice backup plan. I'm a bit surprised that a S&T couldn't get done in the offseason. Ayton is eligible to be moved 10/12, a week before the season starts.

Ayton + Crowder for Turner + Hield is a near-exact money match.
   308. jmurph Posted: September 29, 2022 at 01:13 PM (#6098336)
Ayton is eligible to be moved 10/12, a week before the season starts.

January 15.
   309. DCA Posted: September 29, 2022 at 01:28 PM (#6098339)
Thanks. I was surprised when Fanspo told me 10/12.
   310. jmurph Posted: September 29, 2022 at 01:42 PM (#6098340)
I actually thought it was a year so I was wrong, too! Turns out the year part is only without his permission, so Indiana would presumably be on the table if the teams revisit it.
   311. tshipman Posted: September 29, 2022 at 01:54 PM (#6098342)
Indiana is actually blocked from acquiring Ayton for a year, because they signed the offer sheet.

Every other team can trade for Ayton, but only with his permission as of January
   312. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: September 29, 2022 at 02:14 PM (#6098349)
Obviously I don't know, but I think once the games start, the stuff in PHX may sort of blow over, at least temporarily, when they start winning some games. Same for Brooklyn and Boston.
   313. jmurph Posted: September 29, 2022 at 03:21 PM (#6098360)
Indiana is actually blocked from acquiring Ayton for a year, because they signed the offer sheet.

Every other team can trade for Ayton, but only with his permission as of January

Ahhh, that's it, thanks.
   314. If on a winter's night a traveling violation Posted: September 29, 2022 at 05:08 PM (#6098377)
I agree with rr's take in [312]; we'll have to wait and see how each plays out, obviously, but stories, like gasses, have a way of expanding to fill the available space.

In happier news, the word out of New Orleans is that Zion looks great so far, both in terms of health and chemistry with the team. Fingers crossed that continues throughout the season: Zion is an absolute joy to watch, and I like the games of several of the other Pelicans.
   315. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: September 29, 2022 at 05:35 PM (#6098385)
I’d really like the season to hurry up and start please.
   316. smileyy Posted: September 29, 2022 at 07:49 PM (#6098397)
A healthy Zion is a joy to watch.
   317. tshipman Posted: September 29, 2022 at 09:13 PM (#6098401)
Woj ... IED? Water balloon? Wet fart?

Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn
ESPN Sources: The Oklahoma City Thunder are trading Derrick Favors, Ty Jerome, Moe Harkless, Theo Maledon and a 2025 second-round pick via Atlanta to the Houston Rockets for David Nwaba, Sterling Brown, Trey Burke and Marquese Chriss.


I don't understand this deal for either side. In truth, I did not know half these players were on the team that traded them.
   318. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: September 29, 2022 at 09:17 PM (#6098402)
Of all the NBA trades I can remember, that is certainly one of them.
   319. JJ1986 Posted: September 29, 2022 at 09:31 PM (#6098405)
Over/under 1.5 of these guys ever play for the team that acquired them today.
   320. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: September 29, 2022 at 09:36 PM (#6098406)
thunder get farther under the tax, houston gets a 2nd for helping okc out ... i suspect okc has a follow up move?
i'm not advocating that anyone trade for him but nwaba is an interesting pickup idea for someone as a good d / good locker room guy
   321. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 29, 2022 at 09:36 PM (#6098407)
that trade is 57i66135 approved.
   322. RJ in TO Posted: September 29, 2022 at 11:13 PM (#6098417)
In truth, I did not know half these players were on the team that traded them.

If you remove the last seven words of your sentence, then I am in agreement with it.

As a casual fan, this trade is an enormous pile of "Who?"
   323. spivey Posted: September 30, 2022 at 09:06 AM (#6098443)
I think this trade was only possible because OKC got an exception for Chet Holmgren's salary. Agree with Der K, I presume this opens them to try to take on more bad salary for an asset.

Surely this has to be the last year of the OKC tank, right? Right!????
   324. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: September 30, 2022 at 01:34 PM (#6098479)
Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn
ESPN Sources: The Oklahoma City Thunder are trading Derrick Favors, Ty Jerome, Moe Harkless, Theo Maledon and a 2025 second-round pick via Atlanta to the Houston Rockets for David Nwaba, Sterling Brown, Trey Burke and Marquese Chriss.


True Woj bomb, I don't think anybody saw this trade coming.
   325. asinwreck Posted: September 30, 2022 at 01:39 PM (#6098481)
Absolutely. It involved Presti sending out a draft pick.
   326. kubiwan Posted: September 30, 2022 at 01:57 PM (#6098483)
Dumb fact I just learned: basektball-reference has Andre Iguodala with the 9th-most Win Shares of anyone in the history of the 76ers franchise, which has existed almost since the league was founded and has a pretty storied history. He didn't event spent a long time there...only 8 years!

Second dumb fact: the 76ers franchise has exactly 3,000 regular-season wins.
   327. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: September 30, 2022 at 03:07 PM (#6098497)
Oh great, now I'm going to go waste the rest of the afternoon on BK-Ref. I wonder which franchise has the lowest winning percentage in history. I'll guess either Memphis or Minnesota.

EDIT: Looks like it's easily the Wolves, all-time winning percentage of .399, next lowest is the Clippers at .417.

Closest to .500 is Atlanta, at .494 and Dallas, .506
   328. If on a winter's night a traveling violation Posted: September 30, 2022 at 07:56 PM (#6098531)
The Wolves managed to have multiple losing seasons while rostering a top 20* all-time player in his prime. That's virtuosic.

* Backpicks has Garnett 8th in their GOAT top 40, so that may even be underselling it. I'm recusing myself.

Guessing the best franchise winning percentages would be Spurs, Lakers, Celtics, in that order?
   329. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: September 30, 2022 at 08:03 PM (#6098533)
You nailed it, followed by the Jazz, Suns, and Thunder (includes the Sonics).

Unsurprisingly, bk-Ref makes it remarkably simple: https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/
   330. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: September 30, 2022 at 09:10 PM (#6098544)
this can only mean that a trade is imminent.
Keith Pompey @PompeyOnSixers
Doc Rivers likes what he’s seen from Matisse Thybulle during #Sixers training camp inquirer.com/sixers/matisse… via @phillyinquirer

   331. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: October 02, 2022 at 09:29 AM (#6098719)
I'm bored so sharing these again since it's probably almost prediction time. Here are the win total bets from Pinnacle. I'm (imprecisely) rounding up or down if the odds are shaded one way or the other:

BOS 54.0 (+561 title odds)
MIL 53.5 (+614)
PHI 51.0 (+1606)
BKN 50.5 (+751)
MIA 49.5 (+1736)
CLE 47.0 (+3411)
--
TOR 46.0 (+3991)
ATL 46.0 (+4086)
CHI 44.0 (+6832)
NYK 38.5 (+13219)
---
CHA 36.5
WAS 35.5
DET 29.0
ORL 27.0
IND 24.5


PHX 52.5 (+1012)
LAC 52.5 (+750)
GSW 52.0 (+659)
DEN 51.0 (+1980)
MEM 49.0 (+2485)
DAL 48.5 (+2349)
--
MIN 48.5 (+3055)
NOP 46.0 (+4259)
LAL 45.0 (+1727)
POR 39.5 (+9154)
---
SAC 34.0
UTA 25.0
HOU 23.5
OKC 23.5 (betonline)
SAS 22.5

I did a brief scan of sportsoddshistory.com and pretty sure this year's preseason favorite will have the longest odds in their database going back decades.

I don't have any predictions yet, but here's what I posted last year. I did walk back the Golden State prediction 24 hours later!

Here are a few predictions that may vary slightly from consensus:

1 - Bucks lose in round two these playoffs. I'm not sure who gets them, but I still am not buying them as a playoff team. (I didn't buy them at any point last year, either, so what the hell do I know?)
2 - Utah/Phoenix finish a clear 1-2 in the West standings again in some order. I'll predict that, but not predicting how either of them do in the playoffs.
3 - Minnesota makes the play-in tournament.
4 - Golden State also makes the play-in tournament.
5 - Memphis finishes ahead of the Clippers.


I'll probably predict something similar on the Bucks this year. Also I'm probably going to bet some lunch money on Sixers at +1600.
   332. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: October 02, 2022 at 01:41 PM (#6098737)
Boy, if I was betting, I would take the under on all those teams in the 50s. All of them have potential issues that could hold them back in the regular season.
   333. DCA Posted: October 02, 2022 at 03:53 PM (#6098746)
big disconnect on the regular season wins o/u line and championship probability.
   334. spivey Posted: October 02, 2022 at 05:45 PM (#6098761)
332: Not wrong, but that's also true of a lot of the 40s win teams imo, and the 20s win teams I think just suck and almost all of them are not trying to win or are trying to win but playing young guys so they won't win anyways. Wins have to go somewhere.

I think the league is just more congested with good to very good teams than great teams this year.
   335. tshipman Posted: October 02, 2022 at 07:07 PM (#6098766)
I think the Spurs are just way too low at 22.5, I'd hammer that over. It's not like Dejounte was really all that great last year. They had a positive point differential last year. I don't think they win 40, like the positive point differential would imply, but they're too good to win less than 20.

There are a bunch of teams who could end up as favorites come the playoffs: Denver, Clippers, Memphis, Golden State, Boston, Milwaukee, maybe even Brooklyn or Philly. All those teams have huge question marks at the preseason start, though, in a way that makes it impossible to pick any of them.

I think one or two of those teams stands out from the rest by the playoffs, but I really have no idea which ones.

Edit:
Herro gets 4/130, which means that there's basically no way the Warriors and Poole come to an agreement on an extension.
   336. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: October 02, 2022 at 07:28 PM (#6098768)
If he was an unrestricted free agent in summer 2023, would some team have coughed up 4/130 for Herro? 4/100?
   337. spivey Posted: October 02, 2022 at 08:13 PM (#6098774)
I just really don't like that deal. I think the Heat are really good at being able to maneuver but I fully expect he doesn't see out that deal there.

I think Herro is just a good 6th man. Maybe like a Patty Mills or Jordan Clarkson type. Maybe a bit better because he can play more minutes than Mills and can pass better than Clarkson. But he's a bad defender and I don't think you can hand him the keys to the offense, so where's that leave you, exactly.
   338. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 02, 2022 at 08:44 PM (#6098777)
I like the MN enough to take the over. No idea how the playoffs go, but I think they are well set up for the regular season and unlike many teams they will want to pile up the regular season wins.
   339. tshipman Posted: October 02, 2022 at 09:18 PM (#6098781)
Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Herro deal is good.

However, half of that money comes in the new TV deal, so it's only really a bad deal for two years. Is it worth overpaying Herro for two years? Probably not, but it's not the worst thing in the world. There is at least some upside potential with Herro (even if I strongly doubt he is worth this deal under the current cap).
   340. DCA Posted: October 02, 2022 at 09:24 PM (#6098782)
Jalen Brunson just got 4/$104, on the open market. He's better than Herro, and it's not particularly close. Brunson is a much better comp to Poole, as well, so I'm not sure that Herro's really a precedent (maybe it's just an obvious overpay).
   341. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: October 02, 2022 at 10:26 PM (#6098795)
Herro gets 4/130, which means that there's basically no way the Warriors and Poole come to an agreement on an extension.

MIA regretted the tyler johnson contract.
they regretted the duncan robinson contract.
they regretted the dion waiters contract.
they regretted the meyer's lemon contract.


but this time, surely they'll get it right.
   342. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: October 02, 2022 at 10:29 PM (#6098797)
DEN 51.0 (+1980)
take the over, and put your life savings into it. (anything under 50:1 championship odds isn't worth putting money into)

they have the best player in the league (top 3, at worst), they have 3 other 25 year old all-stars, and that organization has earned the benefit of the doubt, year after year, by pulling quality depth players out of the ECHL, if they have to.


if jokic stays healthy, they sleepwalk to 50 wins. if literally anything else goes right, they're at 60+, easy.
   343. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: October 02, 2022 at 11:03 PM (#6098800)
Title odds: I think the O/U numbers reflect where the league is. Given the age and health records of their top guys, I think Boston should be a very slight favorite. But any of about 8-9 teams can win it.
Herro: This is what Riley does; he overpays "his guys." He has run Miami like that for nearly 30 years.
Denver: Depends on how much the guys who are ostensibly the prime support for Jokic stay on the floor.
   344. jmurph Posted: October 03, 2022 at 07:54 AM (#6098812)
MIA regretted the tyler johnson contract.
they regretted the duncan robinson contract.
they regretted the dion waiters contract.
they regretted the meyer's lemon contract.


but this time, surely they'll get it right.

Butler and Lowry are very unlikely to go well at the end, either.

I'm not sure Herro is even good? He's still young and obviously has a lot of offensive talent, but I think for that kind of all scoring/no defense/not much playmaking guy to actually be valuable, he has to be a lot better than Herro currently is. He's a guy that looks like he's going to be absolutely hunted on defense in key situations for his entire career.
   345. asinwreck Posted: October 03, 2022 at 08:33 AM (#6098820)
Fun to see Philadelphia and Brooklyn projected half a game apart as Harden and Simmons begin their first full seasons with their new teams. I'm sure the respective local media won't follow that storyline closely.

Murray and Porter are apparently practicing without restrictions, so I agree that the Nuggets' projection looks conservative.
   346. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: October 03, 2022 at 09:08 AM (#6098824)
take the over, and put your life savings into it. (anything under 50:1 championship odds isn't worth putting money into)


I love Denver, and if any team ends up a regular season juggernaut, they'd be my pick. But I'm concerned that (a) they'll be easing two stars back into regular playing time, and (b) neither of those players are notable defenders.

   347. tshipman Posted: October 03, 2022 at 11:35 AM (#6098854)
I'm not sure Herro is even good? He's still young and obviously has a lot of offensive talent, but I think for that kind of all scoring/no defense/not much playmaking guy to actually be valuable, he has to be a lot better than Herro currently is. He's a guy that looks like he's going to be absolutely hunted on defense in key situations for his entire career.


Herro's archetype is the most likely to get overrated, so I agree that he's overvalued on this deal and in the NBA broadly, but I think you're a bit harsh on him.

Herro was valuable last year, and his decline in the playoffs was mostly due to not being able to hit 3s. He's a good enough distributor to run the second unit, and he shot 42% on catch and shoot.

He's very similar to other guys in his same general profile at the same age: Klay Thompson, Jaylen Brown, etc.
   348. jmurph Posted: October 03, 2022 at 11:49 AM (#6098860)
Those are two wings who projected to be able to defend wings. I don't see the comparison at all.
   349. tshipman Posted: October 03, 2022 at 12:11 PM (#6098863)
3rd year stats:

Player A: 25.9 MPG, 18.1/5.9/1.9 per 36 on 54.7% TS%, 13.5 PER, -0.1 Net DRTG (negative numbers good here)
Player B: 32.6 MPG, 22.9/5.5/4.4 per 36 on 56.1% TS%, 16.2 PER, +0.3 Net DRTG
Player C: 35.4 MPG, 18.7/3.1/2.3 per 36 on 55.5% TS%, 14.3 PER, -2.5 net DRTG

I don't think Herro stands out egregiously in that list. I also don't think that you can say that Klay or Jaylen have actually been good wing defenders. Both fail the LeBron test, and have been more "projectible" than actual good NBA defenders. Maybe you can fairly say that their reputation helps prevent them from being targeted in the playoffs (although the Warriors did target Jaylen in the Finals). I think that most 3rd year players are bad defenders, and while Herro may always be a bad defender due to the wingspan, I don't think this player type (shooter, secondary playmaker) needs to be anything more than average to be valuable.

I think it's pretty easy to see how Herro becomes a valuable player on that contract: incremental improvement on the 3p shooting, more strength on defense to prevent being pushed around, one more FT per game.

Edit: This is how Riley talks himself into these deals!!!
   350. jmurph Posted: October 03, 2022 at 12:15 PM (#6098864)
I think that most 3rd year players are bad defenders, and while Herro may always be a bad defender due to the wingspan, I don't think this player type (shooter, secondary playmaker) needs to be anything more than average to be valuable.

I think it's pretty easy to see how Herro becomes a valuable player on that contract: incremental improvement on the 3p shooting, more strength on defense to prevent being pushed around, one more FT per game.

I agree with all this, I'm just saying I don't think he'll ever be better than bad on defense, that's why I don't expect him to be a good player long term.

But he's very young, a great shooter, etc. Every time I watch them there are moments when I see it, but also lots of moments I don't.
   351. tshipman Posted: October 03, 2022 at 12:23 PM (#6098866)
There are a lot of guys in the league right now who are like fine as defenders in the regular season and then get exposed in the playoffs.

Jokic, Herro, Gobert, probably LeBron at this point, Montrezl Harrell.

This seems like more of a thing than it used to be. Is that because teams are better at hiding these guys in the regular season than they used to be?
   352. jmurph Posted: October 03, 2022 at 12:37 PM (#6098873)
Saw my first "take foul" being given as one free throw and the ball last night, and it was great! I actually think they got the call wrong in this specific case- whichever Plumlee plays for Charlotte made a play on the ball- but they gave it anyway and that seems good for preseason purposes. Guys just got into such bad habits with this, I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that most of them were bad strategic decisions.
   353. jmurph Posted: October 03, 2022 at 12:38 PM (#6098874)
There are a lot of guys in the league right now who are like fine as defenders in the regular season and then get exposed in the playoffs.

Jokic, Herro, Gobert, probably LeBron at this point, Montrezl Harrell.

This seems like more of a thing than it used to be. Is that because teams are better at hiding these guys in the regular season than they used to be?

I'd guess it's just that the playoffs allow for more time/greater incentive to implement a specific, targeted game plan and then execute it?
   354. spivey Posted: October 03, 2022 at 01:28 PM (#6098884)
I agree with 353. Also I think it's harder to take advantage of if you're playing any guys who are zeroes on offense or can't dribble, and teams have leaned more into rest in the regular season. So, generally there's just much easier places for guys to hide in the regular season because lineups aren't nearly as tight, and superstars will be more prone to wear down if you have them play super helio-ball all game every game for the regular season.
   355. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: October 03, 2022 at 02:52 PM (#6098898)
i largely agree with 353 and 354 but do think it's also harder to hide a guy in the playoffs because offenses space better now.
   356. spivey Posted: October 03, 2022 at 03:07 PM (#6098906)
i largely agree with 353 and 354 but do think it's also harder to hide a guy in the playoffs because offenses space better now.


I agree with that but think it applies to the regular season too. I think teams are more willing to bench guys, even good players, if they can't space the court in the playoffs.
   357. tshipman Posted: October 03, 2022 at 04:27 PM (#6098925)
I agree with this stuff, but a lot of the times, there is no real secret around the execution.

Like with Gobert--it's not news that you can go 5 out on him and do better. Teams don't generally do it in the regular season, though.

It's well known that Harrell can't hold up in PnR defense.

Jokic's defensive limitations are similarly obvious.

Jokic in particular is instructive. It's not hard to get a switch or put the center in PnR. Teams do it all the time. But for whatever reason, Jokic is able to thrive in the regular season.

That's interesting to me!
   358. Hombre Brotani Posted: October 03, 2022 at 04:46 PM (#6098928)
I wonder what Jokic's defensive effectiveness in Game 1 scenarios vs Game 5 scenarios. I wonder if, and to what extent, his defensive shortcomings become more apparent and easily exploitable when attackers get to go at him game after game after game.
   359. smileyy Posted: October 03, 2022 at 06:41 PM (#6098948)
I love seeing the adjustments by players and coaches in the NBA playoffs.
   360. aberg Posted: October 03, 2022 at 07:08 PM (#6098955)
Like with Gobert--it's not news that you can go 5 out on him and do better. Teams don't generally do it in the regular season, though.


I'm interested to see how the five-out works against this Wolves roster. The reason it failed in Utah had to do with offense as much as defense. He couldn't punish smalls guarding him in the post, so putting five out would limit his defensive impact (to my recollection, he isn't bad guarding semi-mobile bigs on the perimeter, just not as good as he is protecting the rim) without giving up anything to him on offense. The archetype is a team like the Clippers. If they put a lineup like Wall, Kennard, George, Leonard, Batum (or Morris, Powell, Covington in some combo of those spots), you definitely create some defensive challenges for Minnesota. On the other hand, KAT is one of the best post players in the NBA. Who is guarding him if they put him on the block? One of the biggest questions about the Wolves is whether this group can make noise in the playoffs and how they cope with that sort of lineup will go a long way to answering those questions.
   361. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: October 03, 2022 at 07:30 PM (#6098958)
I love seeing the adjustments by players and coaches in the NBA playoffs.
what are "adjustments"? i can't remember seeing anything like that from the sixers in the last 15 years.
   362. Fourth True Outcome Posted: October 03, 2022 at 08:11 PM (#6098967)
what are "adjustments"?

I believe that's what it's called when a coach hides money in the ceiling to motivate his players.
   363. asinwreck Posted: October 04, 2022 at 08:35 AM (#6099005)
The new-look Nets took the court together for the first time last night. They had some first-quarter rust (perimeter shooting, perimeter defense) that allowed the Sixers to take a big early lead, but roared back to make it close at the half before Nash took the starters out.

Ben Simmons demonstrated exactly the skills and deficiencies he had three years ago. The result was some very good ball movement, active defense, and 0-2 from the line. He worked with Kyrie Irving on some great passing early on that resulted in good looks for Kevin Durant and Joe Harris, and then Nash put him with Patty Mills, Harris, and Royce O'Neale to spread the floor around him.

Team execution could have been better, but you can see what they're trying to do. Sean Marks has to feel relieved that Simmons doesn't seem to have lost anything from his long layoff. Whether he can improve, or whether the team can mask his deficiencies, is another question.
   364. aberg Posted: October 04, 2022 at 09:24 AM (#6099010)
Whether he can improve


I feel like we have a pretty good gauge on this one by now.
   365. asinwreck Posted: October 04, 2022 at 10:09 AM (#6099018)
I agree. Nash spoke about how much Simmons has worked this summer on his free throws, but they didn't look any different last night.
   366. reech Posted: October 04, 2022 at 10:15 AM (#6099020)
Is there any recent team more unlikeable than the Nets? The latest kerfuffle with Kyrie (Alex Jones is a visionary) Irving just adds to the bonfire.
   367. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: October 04, 2022 at 10:18 AM (#6099022)
The latest kerfuffle with Kyrie (Alex Jones is a visionary) Irving just adds to the bonfire.

Nope.
   368. jmurph Posted: October 04, 2022 at 10:45 AM (#6099024)
Is there any recent team more unlikeable than the Nets?

I guess I don't know how to measure these things but I'm not sure the rest of the sports world sees it like we do. Kyrie is still incredibly popular despite everything, as is Durant. The NBA had the Nets 5th in merchandise sales last year, and Durant and Kyrie 4th and 10th in jersey sales, respectively.

(Eh, I now see those are "2nd half" numbers, but I assume the trend mostly holds for the full season.)
   369. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 04, 2022 at 10:48 AM (#6099025)
Is there any recent team more unlikeable than the Nets? The latest kerfuffle with Kyrie (Alex Jones is a visionary) Irving just adds to the bonfire.


I kind of love the Nets. They are such a constructed and deeply weird team and have been for a while now and I find them fascinating.
   370. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: October 04, 2022 at 11:37 AM (#6099028)
Is there any recent team more unlikeable than the Nets?
the hibachi/baltche/javale/crittenton zardos are pretty far up there.

noone from the nets is in jail for murder (yet), so....

and i've also haven't seen reports that kyrie took a #### in nic claxton's shoes.
   371. smileyy Posted: October 04, 2022 at 01:16 PM (#6099034)
After that s-show of a team I was amazed to see that Javale McGee became a useful player, if briefly.
   372. jmurph Posted: October 04, 2022 at 02:08 PM (#6099038)
Oh that's a good call, that team was the worst. That said I lived in DC during that stretch and you could generally get cheap tickets on stubhub.
   373. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: October 04, 2022 at 02:13 PM (#6099041)
oh my god; i forgot that team also had nick ####### swaggy p young.


these nets do not even come close to sniffing that shitshow.
   374. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: October 04, 2022 at 02:29 PM (#6099044)
There's a difference between #### show and just unlikable though, right? It's hard to separate on court from off court unlikability since most of the current Nets unlikability comes from off court bullshit, but much much different off court bullshit like Wizards and teams like the Jailblazers. The Nets are a weird experiment, but potentially super talented but with 3 of the most unlikeable All Stars of recent memory.

IOW, there's basketball reasons to be interested in this Nets group even while hating them, but some of those other teams were bad and shitty.

   375. jmurph Posted: October 04, 2022 at 02:46 PM (#6099047)
I still find Durant to be likable, through it all? I can't really defend it. He doesn't strike me as actively terrible, like Kyrie, just sort of all over the place with his (basketball) wants.
   376. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: October 04, 2022 at 02:53 PM (#6099048)
So last night all of these NBA players played basketball - Anthony Davis, Kawhi Leonard, Paul George, Damian Lillard, Michael Porter Jr., Jamal Murray, Kyrie Irving, and Ben Simmons.

Davis led that group with 40 games played last regular season. (edit - could've added Durant and his 33 games to that list.)
   377. spivey Posted: October 04, 2022 at 03:23 PM (#6099051)
I like Durant. He's moody and a bit more insecure than he lets on. But he's very thoughtful.
   378. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: October 04, 2022 at 04:40 PM (#6099061)
agree/same. also, you don't hear people saying that he doesn't try hard for his team and teammates.
do i have some issues with his choices? sure. i don't want him as my gm. but he's likable.
--
john butler has been on my mind lately, even before he signed a two way with the pelicans. for the unfamiliar:
he's 19 years old and 7-2 174. not a typo. played one year at florida state, where he was a 5.9/3.2/0.7 in 19 minutes a game. he shot 39% from three and the thinking is that he could be a very good shooter from distance. also, he's really agile - like, he might be a three, not a center. not really good at anything beyond three point shooting (i guess he blocks some shots) and is a total project. i thought he'd be a good e10 target but that it might be early for a two way deal (if you think you might use players in those roles, new orleans has improved its depth and might not need to).
as much as anything, i want to see what position this guy plays. if he's a big -- there's no way he'll put enough the weight he needs to guard people any time soon. if he's actually a wing ... i would like to see what that looks like, please.
   379. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: October 04, 2022 at 05:07 PM (#6099068)
I still find Durant to be likable, through it all? I can't really defend it. He doesn't strike me as actively terrible, like Kyrie, just sort of all over the place with his (basketball) wants.

counterpoint:

durant stole 4 years of NBA basketball by exploiting a salary cap keyhole to sign with a team that had made the NBA finals two years in a row, winning once, and had just finished a 73-9 regular season.


   380. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: October 04, 2022 at 05:09 PM (#6099069)
he's 19 years old and 7-2 174. not a typo. played one year at florida state
typo or not, i'd believe just about anything about a 7 footer coming out of florida state.
   381. Fourth True Outcome Posted: October 04, 2022 at 05:39 PM (#6099072)
durant stole 4 years of NBA basketball by exploiting a salary cap keyhole

Even if one agrees that Durant going to the Warriors stole 4 years of NBA ball from the rest of us (a position I sympathize with but with which don't agree), the blame lies with the player's association for rejecting cap smoothing to avoid that spike, not with KD for freely exercising his rights as a free agent. KD's choice to go to GS after they'd gone 73-9 was clearly not what he wanted it to be and was a disappointing choice to many of us, but if it ruined the league competitively I don't think that's on him.

More broadly on KD, I don't dislike him, but have found him a lot less likeable than I did even through the GS years. The way he seems to have wanted to have all of the power in Brooklyn with none of the responsibility for things going sideways and his insistence on backing Kyrie to the hilt while seemingly blaming the team for the issues that Kyrie's absence last season created have really harmed my opinion of the guy. I don't think he's a bad person, and a lot of his criticism of the NBA media landscape is at least somewhat accurate, but I also think he's immature, a poor leader, and seems to want to have his cake and eat it too with regard to player empowerment and his role in the Nets organization.
   382. jmurph Posted: October 04, 2022 at 06:00 PM (#6099077)
durant stole 4 years of NBA basketball by exploiting a salary cap keyhole to sign with a team that had made the NBA finals two years in a row, winning once, and had just finished a 73-9 regular season.

I get this, but also that was an exciting stretch of basketball despite the lopsided results the first two years. I don't look back on it negatively.
   383. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: October 04, 2022 at 06:46 PM (#6099083)
Even if one agrees that Durant going to the Warriors stole 4 years of NBA ball from the rest of us (a position I sympathize with but with which don't agree), the blame lies with the player's association for rejecting cap smoothing to avoid that spike, not with KD for freely exercising his rights as a free agent. KD's choice to go to GS after they'd gone 73-9 was clearly not what he wanted it to be and was a disappointing choice to many of us, but if it ruined the league competitively I don't think that's on him.

other people may have created the circumstances, but durant made the decision to go there, and so he can eat the blame for it. i'm sure he's reading this thread, so feel free to drop in to defend your actions, kd.
I get this, but also that was an exciting stretch of basketball despite the lopsided results the first two years. I don't look back on it negatively.

it could have been worse, sure, but the fact that it wasn't as bad as it could have been isn't the most compelling point in his favor, imo.


btw:

i don't really hate durant for going to GSW, but i do think it's a valid reason to (sports) hate durant. it is one of the most anti-competitive decisions that a player has made in my lifetime.
   384. tshipman Posted: October 04, 2022 at 06:51 PM (#6099084)
The league has to be main actor to blame for no cap smoothing. They crammed down a huge BRI cut around the same time and had zero good will with the PA.

I like Durant. He's moody and a bit more insecure than he lets on. But he's very thoughtful.


This is where I'm at. Durant is a challenging character, but he's interesting and thoughtful. There is a lot to dislike and a lot to enjoy, and that tension makes him among the most compelling people in the NBA.
   385. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: October 04, 2022 at 07:05 PM (#6099085)
The league has to be main actor to blame for no cap smoothing. They crammed down a huge BRI cut around the same time and had zero good will with the PA.
right. i believe the NBA's pitch to the NBPA for cap smoothing was the equivalent of taking a huge interest-free loan from the players, and then only paying back 60% of the principle, 4 years later.
   386. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: October 04, 2022 at 08:27 PM (#6099096)
SVG is totally right about Ohtani and Judge.
   387. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: October 04, 2022 at 10:11 PM (#6099110)
the blame lies with the player's association

Echoing tship and stiggles, I hate this framing. The cap spike was easily foreseeable long before it happened, and rather than trying to come up with a mutually beneficial solution, the league sat on its hands until finally making a take-it-or-leave-it offer that was terrible for the players. As stiggles suggested, it amounted to a several hundred million dollar interest free loan, with no assurances that the players would ever get anything in return.

It seemed to me that there was an obvious and much more equitable alternative, by which everyone would agree to a ceiling of say 10% on year-to-year cap increases, but that each player's paychecks would be increased proportionally to offset the difference between the actual cap and where the cap would have been without that ceiling. That would benefit every player whose free agency didn't happen to coincide with the cap spike, thereby benefiting a majority of players, while also maintaining competitive balance and the agreed-upon revenue split.

You can say that the players could have proposed something along those lines as well, but ultimately competitive balance is far more a concern of the owners and what was most at stake, so I'd tend toward thinking the owners had a greater responsibility here.
   388. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: October 05, 2022 at 03:20 AM (#6099137)
Jonathan Givony
@DraftExpress
·
2h
37 points, 5 blocks and 7 made 3s for Victor Wembanyama in his first ever game on US soil. Showed exactly why he's considered a generational talent and the projected No. 1 pick in a loaded draft class.


I watched some video; his form from 3 is something for a 7'3" teenager. Henderson was great too--28/9/5.
   389. Hombre Brotani Posted: October 05, 2022 at 04:40 AM (#6099139)
SVG is totally right about Ohtani and Judge.
I'm obviously biased, but also, yes.
   390. spivey Posted: October 05, 2022 at 09:00 AM (#6099146)
I wasn't able to watch the game, but tonight not withstanding, I still think Wembanyama is going to be a project offensively from what I've heard and from his stats. He took and made a ton of 3s last night. Obviously, anyone looks good when those are going in. He's also a 31% 3pt shooter in Euro ball, 68% from the line, and only 50% from 2s. Limited FTA and a bad A:TO ratio. I think it's going to take time for him to transition into more than a transition and stand-around-the-perimeter big. I guess if you can cause the disruption at the rim on the defensive side, that's enough to have value out of the gate, though.

Scoot seems like a much more well rounded player to me, though there are questions about his perimeter shot as well. I'm really interested to see how this season goes for both of them.
   391. Fourth True Outcome Posted: October 05, 2022 at 12:06 PM (#6099164)
Appreciate the pushback on the bad framing of the cap smoothing rejection; I misremembered the specifics and didn't bother to check my memory. Completely agree that it, like most of the biggest issues between the union and league, was the owners/league trying to force a bad deal on the players.
   392. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: October 05, 2022 at 07:39 PM (#6099264)
i am not ready for the NBA season to start.
   393. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: October 05, 2022 at 07:48 PM (#6099265)
i am not ready for the NBA season to start.


Neither is Markelle Fultz.
   394. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: October 05, 2022 at 08:05 PM (#6099269)
390

Yeah, all I watched was some clips. But like I said, what struck me was that the guy's shooting form looked very smooth for a guy his size and age. My guess--and guess is the operative word--is that Henderson will be seen as a safer bet (likely to be an ASG-level guy)
but Wembanyama will be the higher ceiling/could be superawesome dude, and it will be a whole thing about who should go #1 (shipman already said this).

Watching Wembanyama made me think of Ralph Sampson. Unlike most guys here, I am old enough to remember Sampson at UVA and he was mega-hyped--the next Kareem, future GOAT, etc.--when of course the future GOAT was UNC's shooting guard.

   395. asinwreck Posted: October 05, 2022 at 08:42 PM (#6099275)

Watching Wembanyama made me think of Ralph Sampson. Unlike most guys here, I am old enough to remember Sampson at UVA and he was mega-hyped--the next Kareem, future GOAT, etc.--when of course the future GOAT was UNC's shooting guard.

I agree so much that I watch Wembanyama and pray for the integrity of his knees. Imagine how many 3s a health Ralph Sampson playing in 2022 would shoot.
   396. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: October 05, 2022 at 09:21 PM (#6099282)
I watched maybe the same clips as rr and I was surprised also by how natural his shot looked from distance.
   397. tshipman Posted: October 05, 2022 at 09:40 PM (#6099286)
The positive and negative for Wembanyama is the same: the NBA has never seen a guy like this before. If that scares you, then you lean against taking him #1 overall, but if it's exciting, then he's your clear pick.
   398. An Athletic in Powderhorn, Silly Posted: October 06, 2022 at 12:03 AM (#6099313)
Well, this isn't good.
On the verge of a lucrative contract extension, likely to land somewhere around the four-year / $130M number that Miami Heat guard Tyler Herro just secured, Golden State Warriors guard Jordan Poole has reportedly been rubbing teammates the wrong way. In a recent report, Chris Haynes of Yahoo Sports revealed that Warriors teammates have noticed a behavior change in Poole, which ultimately led to his fight with Draymond Green.

Haynes added that Green was apologetic, but the friction between he and Poole has been building up throughout training camp. As Haynes mentioned, teammates beyond Green had noticed a change in Poole's behavior throughout camp, which caused the build up that resulted in a physical altercation.

Even if this report is accurate, and Poole had been acting different, Green knows he should not have allowed physical violence to take place. The Warriors organization also recognizes this, which is why current reports indicate that only Green will be receiving punishment. The nature of that punishment has yet to be announced, as the organization has some difficult decisions to make.
   399. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: October 06, 2022 at 12:06 AM (#6099314)

Shams Charania @ShamsCharania
Sources: There was a physical altercation at Warriors’ practice today that has the team considering disciplinary action toward Draymond Green.

Story at
@TheAthletic
with
@anthonyVslater
,
@ThompsonScribe
:
   400. DCA Posted: October 06, 2022 at 09:13 AM (#6099329)
I'm increasingly thinking that Poole is just going to play out the season and then walk for big money. The Warriors can't afford everybody, and if it comes down to paying Poole or Wiggins next year, the obvious choice is Wiggins.

I suppose it's possible that Draymond could be the one to go, but I think that's unlikely - he's too important to the system, and he'll be off the books or getting cheaper in 2024+ which gives the team room to invest in any of Kuminga/Moody/Wiseman that earn it.
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