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Friday, April 15, 2022

2022 NBA Playoffs thread

I estimate the NBA thread only had 10-12 years of content so we’re in reruns already.

Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: April 15, 2022 at 11:59 AM | 3312 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: narratives, nba, off-topic, playoffs

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   1501. Cagerfan Posted: May 16, 2022 at 04:40 PM (#6077029)
Irving wasn't that good (as his post-Cavs career has strongly suggested) but the 2nd best was probably K. Love. Jamaal Wilkes maybe, back in 1975? Hard to say who was 2nd best on the '77 Blazers but it was probably either Bobby Gross or Mo Lucas.
   1502. tshipman Posted: May 16, 2022 at 04:53 PM (#6077031)
I would take prime Chandler for sure over any current Mav (though there's probably some uncertainty given the game's evolution in the intervening decade). This is not very close for me? Maybe I'm crazy. But picturing Luka with prime Chandler, my god.


I mean, Tyson Chandler would have been unplayable against Utah. The Mavs going 5 out, scrambling and recovering has been the key to their success. Peak Tyson Chandler is maybe only a regular season player in 2022.

The Porzingis trade was basically a bet on versatility being more important than talent. Right now the Mavs are winning that bet.

Currently the Mavs are winning by taking half their shots from 3, and making 39% of them. Those numbers are obviously higher in the wins and lower in the losses (41% in the wins, 34% in the losses). Right now, the Mavs are just saying, we are going to take a shitload of 3pers, and if we make them, we will win the game. Tyson Chandler doesn't help with that at all.
   1503. Moeball Posted: May 16, 2022 at 05:02 PM (#6077037)
#1487 Pop and his 5 rings would disagree with you about limitations. The players were interchangeable but Pop's system always made the Spurs competitive and legit contenders for the title. The Ws have also won 3 titles with a definite system. Yes, you can definitely make the system work better with more Kevin Durant and less Harrison Barnes, but the system is still in place to make the team consistently competitive.

For that matter, Phil Jackson had a definite system. Run the triangle on offense, great team defense and role players who know what they're supposed to contribute. Horace Grant becomes Dennis Rodman. MJ and Scottie becomes Shaq and Kobe becomes Kobe and Pau. The system worked.
   1504. tshipman Posted: May 16, 2022 at 05:28 PM (#6077041)
Again, a system has value. Pop won championships by having perfect execution of the system. Pop never went back to back, though.

Ws have a system, but Kerr is not a system coach. They deviate and change regularly in the playoffs.

Phil is like the opposite of a system coach, and the Triangle is the opposite of running 30 Spain PnRs every game.
   1505. SteveF Posted: May 16, 2022 at 05:51 PM (#6077045)
2 of the top 13 teams (of 16) in rim frequency on offense made the conference finals -- Miami (5th - 27.9%) and Boston (9th - 25.3%).
4 of the top 7 teams in 3PAr on offense made the conference finals -- Dallas (1st - 49.8%), Boston (2nd - 46.3%), GSW (4th - 43.7%), Miami (7th - 41.3%).
   1506. Hombre Brotani Posted: May 16, 2022 at 06:30 PM (#6077056)
Phil is like the opposite of a system coach, and the Triangle is the opposite of running 30 Spain PnRs every game.
I suppose this is where we have to differentiate between systems and philosophies. When Jordan or Kobe or Curry has the ball, the other four guys have to know what they're supposed to do, what adjustments to look for, etc. The Triangle wasn't like Pop's PnRs, but it was definitely a philosophy -- with plays and spots and movement built into it -- that required buy-in from everyone on the floor.
   1507. aberg Posted: May 16, 2022 at 06:42 PM (#6077059)
Irving wasn't that good (as his post-Cavs career has strongly suggested) but the 2nd best was probably K. Love. Jamaal Wilkes maybe, back in 1975? Hard to say who was 2nd best on the '77 Blazers but it was probably either Bobby Gross or Mo Lucas.


Wilkes came to mind for me, too. That team is probably the ultimate "single star" champion in my mind. The 11 Mavs are probably next in line.

The 70 Knicks are an interesting example if you remove Reed from consideration due to his Finals injury. Dave Debuscherre was an awesome teammate, by all accounts, but pretty bad for a 2nd option on a champ.
   1508. asinwreck Posted: May 16, 2022 at 06:43 PM (#6077061)
A Boston-Dallas final would produce the narrative of two teams that started the season quite slowly under new coaches, followed by a dramatic improvement on the defensive end.
   1509. Cagerfan Posted: May 16, 2022 at 06:46 PM (#6077062)
I think most would agree Walt Frazier was the second banana on the Knicks.
   1510. a 57i66135 with a grenade still has a grenade Posted: May 16, 2022 at 07:54 PM (#6077066)
who was the 2nd best player on the 94/95 rockets? was it robert horry?
   1511. tshipman Posted: May 16, 2022 at 08:01 PM (#6077068)
who was the 2nd best player on the 94/95 rockets? was it robert horry?


No, pretty easy Clyde Drexler.

The 1994 team is probably your better case for Horry.
   1512. Cagerfan Posted: May 16, 2022 at 08:22 PM (#6077076)
IMO, Otis Thorpe was #2 on the ‘94 team. Or Kenny Smith.
   1513. MHS Posted: May 16, 2022 at 08:33 PM (#6077077)
I really like the Mav’s vs the Warriors. I think there is tremendous betting value in the Mavs, who I backed quite aggressively with my hard earned dollars.

The intensity in which the Macs hunted CP3 was very impressive, and I think will be a massive problem for the Warriors. I concur with Tship that Pool won’t be able to play much, certainly not in Luka minutes. I think Steph is going to be in for a long series.

It pains me to say but I like the heat to beat my Celtics. I feel like the probabilities just shade towards the heat. games 1 and 7 will be very tough wins for the Celtics and the idea of having to win 4 of 5 seems improbable. From a matchup perspective - Bam is a problem for the Celtics unless Robert is both healthy and integrated which seems unlikely. Horford, who I worry will wear down, Theis and Grant are just not athletic enough.

The good news is I think half court offense is going to be a challenge for the Heat, but I think they’ll do enough to get by.

I would like the Celtics a good bit more if they were playing Wed and not Tues.
   1514. tshipman Posted: May 16, 2022 at 08:58 PM (#6077084)
I really like the Mav’s vs the Warriors. I think there is tremendous betting value in the Mavs, who I backed quite aggressively with my hard earned dollars.

The intensity in which the Macs hunted CP3 was very impressive, and I think will be a massive problem for the Warriors. I concur with Tship that Pool won’t be able to play much, certainly not in Luka minutes. I think Steph is going to be in for a long series.


Mavs are a significant dog, yeah? If so, I agree. Warriors are -255, which is way too high (about 70% to win).

It's a really hard series to evaluate because it's going to be incredibly swingy. Dallas has been shooting great. There's no guarantee that keeps up. Dallas has been really effective at limiting 3s from role players, but they haven't played a team like the Warriors yet.

A significant portion of this series is going to be make-or-miss-league stuff. Is Spencer Dinwiddie going to be a bum, like he was in the losses? Or is he going to look like an all-star?

The best thing the Warriors have going for them is that they have experience against LeBron + shooter lineups, which is the closest thing to this Mavs lineup. So there won't be the element of surprise for the mavs.

I think it's pretty close to a 50/50 matchup, with home court maybe giving GSW a slight edge (but I could see an argument for the other way!). Both teams are not deep with guys who can play in this series. Poole is borderline unplayable, Bertans is unplayable, Ntilikina is unplayable, Bjelica is unplayable, etc. Can Looney and Powell play minutes? Is Iguodala available ever? Can Kuminga learn fast enough?

It pains me to say but I like the heat to beat my Celtics. I feel like the probabilities just shade towards the heat. games 1 and 7 will be very tough wins for the Celtics and the idea of having to win 4 of 5 seems improbable. From a matchup perspective - Bam is a problem for the Celtics unless Robert is both healthy and integrated which seems unlikely. Horford, who I worry will wear down, Theis and Grant are just not athletic enough.



I think it's going to be really hard to score in this series. Transition will matter a lot.
   1515. Cagerfan Posted: May 16, 2022 at 09:05 PM (#6077085)
If Horford and Williams can give Durant and Giannis fits, they can give Adebayo fits. It will be a lot easier to score at the rim against Miami than it was against the Bucks. This isn’t like two years ago, when Theis was the starting center and Kemba was playing on a knee with a torn meniscus. Herro is going to be guarded by Smart, White and Brown instead of a one-legged Kemba and Wannamaker. Celtics in 6.
   1516. Cagerfan Posted: May 16, 2022 at 09:25 PM (#6077090)
I also don’t think Lowry will be able to contribute much, if he does play. He looked terrible against the Sixers.
   1517. aberg Posted: May 16, 2022 at 10:33 PM (#6077104)
The 70 Knicks are an interesting example if you remove Reed from consideration due to his Finals injury. Dave Debuscherre was an awesome teammate, by all accounts, but pretty bad for a 2nd option on a champ.


I think most would agree Walt Frazier was the second banana on the Knicks.


Agreed. I'm saying if you remove Reed from consideration with his injury and bump Frazier up to #1, who becomes #2 in that scenario.
   1518. Cagerfan Posted: May 17, 2022 at 12:36 AM (#6077129)
Yes, I think that would be DeBusschere.
   1519. Hombre Brotani Posted: May 17, 2022 at 03:33 AM (#6077137)
Woman granted emergency protective order against Rajon Rondo, alleges Cleveland Cavaliers point guard threatened her with gun
Link.
   1520. PJ Martinez Posted: May 17, 2022 at 11:24 AM (#6077155)
The Rondo news is a bummer. He was a favorite of mine in Boston, but my opinion of him dimmed a bit after the outburst he directed at Bill Kennedy. The allegation that he has a serious anger problem is not exactly shocking, but it's sad all the same. I hope the woman and the kids are all right.
   1521. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: May 17, 2022 at 12:56 PM (#6077168)
If Tatum plays well, I can see Miami having trouble scoring enough to keep up. Butler has been on fire, but probably playing above his head a bit, and Philly's wings weren't offering the resistance that Boston's will.

Draft lottery is also tonight. Seems like Jabari Smith is the likely #1 pick.
   1522. villageidiom Posted: May 17, 2022 at 01:48 PM (#6077178)
Horford, who I worry will wear down, Theis and Grant are just not athletic enough.
Does Vegas publish an over/under on seconds of playing time until Theis commits his first foul, and is it 25?
   1523. PJ Martinez Posted: May 17, 2022 at 02:14 PM (#6077182)
I tend to agree that if Grant's lack of exceptional NBA athleticism didn't prevent him from guarding Giannis about as well as Giannis can be guarded (i.e., so that Giannis at least had to work for his many many points), it shouldn't prevent him from guarding Bam well, either.*

Also, as Brian Scalabrine noted on Zach Lowe's podcast, he and Bam have a bit of a history, which is fun, if nothing else:
A few months later, both teams were nationally ranked and met in the state final. Providence Day won 67-53 in front of a standing room only crowd at Raleigh Ravenscroft... Adebayo, guarded by Williams for most of the game, finished with 11 points and 11 rebounds.

* Edit: Theis, on the other hand, is a bad matchup for Boston, and I assume Udoka will try not to have him up against Adebayo much. But Grant featured heavily in switching lineups throughout the season and into the playoffs.
   1524. a 57i66135 with a grenade still has a grenade Posted: May 17, 2022 at 02:36 PM (#6077187)
Austin Krell @NBAKrell
Turns out Paul Reed was 100% serious about adding 10-15 inches to his vertical.
pic.twitter.com/d2siTOgp77



i'm reasonably sure this storyline ends with radiation poisoning.
   1525. a 57i66135 with a grenade still has a grenade Posted: May 17, 2022 at 02:45 PM (#6077193)
today's poeltl:

1st guess: georges niang (as always): nothing.

2nd guess: nailed it.
   1526. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: May 17, 2022 at 03:02 PM (#6077197)
I would pick Golden State and Boston in these two series. I think both will go 6 or 7.
   1527. sardonic Posted: May 17, 2022 at 03:58 PM (#6077205)
I've hoovered all the podcasts and previews into my head for Warriors-Mavs and here are things I'm watching for:

- The Warriors will likely want to single cover Luka... can they slow him down enough with Wiggins/OPJ/Draymond/Kuminga? Like 35 on 28 shots vs. 40 on 20 shots. And then can the Ws limit everyone else? Luka scores around 27% of the points in Mavs wins but about 35% of their points in their losses.

- The Mavs will want to trap Steph. Can Draymond and others run the 4 on 3 and punish with open layups and 3s?

- Who dictates the pace? Will the Warriors get out and run for easy transition baskets or will the Mavs turn their running into turnovers or force the Ws into a half court game?

   1528. asinwreck Posted: May 17, 2022 at 05:11 PM (#6077219)
NBA Retweet @RTNBA
"DeAndre Ayton did not feel valued by the Phoenix organization… So now, he moves towards RFA… DeAndre Ayton is going to get a max contract somewhere… There are a lot of teams lining up to figure out how to acquire him." - @wojespn on DeAndre Ayton
What would the Suns want in a trade for DeAndre Ayton? I see Twitter speculation that the Pistons are eager to get him.
   1529. tshipman Posted: May 17, 2022 at 05:35 PM (#6077227)
What would the Suns want in a trade for DeAndre Ayton? I see Twitter speculation that the Pistons are eager to get him.


How much can you realistically demand, as the Suns for a sign and trade? If they aren't going to offer Ayton the max, you can make it uncomfortable for the Suns to match.

using Detroit as a benchmark, maybe you could get back someone like Kelly Olynyk and a second. Ayton isn't worth the max, let alone giving up the max PLUS giving up a first.
   1530. If on a winter's night a traveling violation Posted: May 17, 2022 at 05:38 PM (#6077228)
Phil is like the opposite of a system coach, and the Triangle is the opposite of running 30 Spain PnRs every game.
This is a fun, interesting little semi-philosophical* exercise. I might argue that Doug Collins was less of a system coach than Phil, in that the triangle requires many more specific cuts and passes from everyone than "give the ball to Michael and get out of the way", but it also involves a lot of improvised, ad-hoc structure; similarly, the Warriors are an interesting "system team" because their system involves a ton of random, improvisational read-and-react plays.

The best definition I've come up with so far: a system coach is one who keeps to the same game plan as the roster and/or opponent changes.

* something philosophers and programmers can agree on: inventing clear, consistently-valid names for abstract things is hard as ####
   1531. aberg Posted: May 17, 2022 at 05:39 PM (#6077230)
What would the Suns want in a trade for DeAndre Ayton? I see Twitter speculation that the Pistons are eager to get him.


I'm not a dogmatic anti-center person in terms of team building (even if this year's playoffs would support that stance). Still, if the last few weeks made you want to use one of your limited max slots on Ayton, you must have been watching the games very differently than me.
   1532. If on a winter's night a traveling violation Posted: May 17, 2022 at 05:52 PM (#6077231)
As a Celtics fan married to a Warriors fan, I've got myself a busy week.

Right now, I see Mavs/Warriors as far closer to a coin flip than I expected. I predicted a Celtics/Suns Finals, so my bracket is already busted (is anyone's still in play?), but FWIW, here were what I saw as the most likely Finals matchups at the start of the playoffs, in order:
1) PHX/BOS
2) GSW/BOS
3) PHX/MIL
4) GSW/MIL
--- medium-sized gap ---
5) PHX/MIA
6) GSW/MIA
--- huge gap ---
7) anyone else

I thought Phoenix was worse than their record, but not like that, and Dallas has crashed the party in fascinating fashion. They are the kind of physical, switchable defense that can give the Dubs some trouble, and Luka is outrageous—this is a series where late-prime Iguodala would have been very, very helpful, but that dude is gone.

Recusing myself from analyzing Celtics/Heat except to note that Miami has won their last six straight conference finals, while Boston has lost their last four; per my very advanced analysis, they're due for a regression.

I agree with every word of PJ's 1520.
   1533. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 17, 2022 at 06:01 PM (#6077233)
Marcus Smart's listfranc sprain is indeed keeping him out of game one tonight, and Al Horford is in health and safety protocols. Smart is less crucial with Lowry out, but the Celtics are going to need a spry Timelord and some good minutes from Theis to make up for not having Horford.

I also agree with every word of 1520.
   1534. SteveF Posted: May 17, 2022 at 06:37 PM (#6077240)
Horford is some kind of Covid magnet. He's been vaccinated and now been in the protocol 3 times.
   1535. sardonic Posted: May 17, 2022 at 06:50 PM (#6077246)
I had GSW/MIL. Helpfully our picks are mostly on the first page of this thread.
   1536. sardonic Posted: May 17, 2022 at 06:58 PM (#6077248)
Anthony Slater of the Athletic has a great Twitter that is worth a follow. He's cut together short clips of:

Link:

Here is Andrew Wiggins' defensive work on Luka Doncic this season. Guarded him plenty in all four games. Luka made some shots, but this is good tape from Wiggins. Limited the easy looks, caused some turnovers.


Link:
I do expect the Warriors to use Jonathan Kuminga for small stretches on Luka Doncic. Possibly early in quarters before they near bonus because Kuminga is aggressive and Luka is a foul magnet. They did it in three of the four regular season matchups. Here is what it looked like.


Link:
The Mavericks blitzed and doubled Steph Curry the entire fourth quarter of their previous matchup. Steve Kerr called it the best game to watch for playoff prep: "We're anticipating they'll blitz Steph"

Here are the clips of those 4Q doubles and Kerr's soundbite on it
   1537. The Ghost of Sox Fans Past Posted: May 17, 2022 at 08:01 PM (#6077258)
Horford and Smart out, ugh!

This moved the spread from Miami -2.5 to Miami -4. At least Robert Time Lord Williams will be back.

Horford also out for Game 2.
   1538. asinwreck Posted: May 17, 2022 at 08:26 PM (#6077264)
Orlando and Oklahoma City go 1-2 in the lottery. I would like to see Holmgren go second, if only for the Thunder to have the skinniest roster in the NBA.
   1539. SteveF Posted: May 17, 2022 at 08:43 PM (#6077270)
Maybe they could try and sneak Holmgren and Poku onto the court stuffed into the same uniform.
   1540. tshipman Posted: May 17, 2022 at 08:46 PM (#6077271)
Chet Holmgren may actually already be three 10 year olds standing on each others' shoulders.
   1541. Cagerfan Posted: May 17, 2022 at 08:54 PM (#6077272)
They said on the telecast that this is the first time Holmgren has ever worn a suit and tie, and indeed he looked very awkward and uncomfortable. Now I’m rooting for the kid.
   1542. SteveF Posted: May 17, 2022 at 09:28 PM (#6077281)
Looks like a cramp for Tucker. I think he'll be OK.

Edit: Err. Hopefully.
   1543. Hombre Brotani Posted: May 17, 2022 at 09:43 PM (#6077282)
Is Duncan Robinson dead?
   1544. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 17, 2022 at 09:44 PM (#6077283)
It's only one half and the Heat will likely clean up their transition defense, but the Celtics spent that half feasting on the fact that the Heat don't have anyone as big as Lopez or Giannis to wall off the rim.
   1545. Cagerfan Posted: May 17, 2022 at 09:54 PM (#6077285)
I think part of it is that the Celtics opponents in this playoff have been much better than the Heat opponents and are coming in more battle-tested and pumped up.
   1546. SteveF Posted: May 17, 2022 at 09:56 PM (#6077287)
42 points in the paint in a single half. It took the Celtics 2 full games to get that many points in the paint against the Bucks.
   1547. If on a winter's night a traveling violation Posted: May 17, 2022 at 09:56 PM (#6077288)
Came here to post that the Heat just play so much littler than the Bucks, particularly the playoff Bucks, but FTO beat me to it. It's almost startling to not have a super long and mobile 7-foot MVP candidate to account for. I'm sure they'll find some things that work better than what they tried in the first half, though.
   1548. a 57i66135 with a grenade still has a grenade Posted: May 17, 2022 at 10:08 PM (#6077289)
clearly the heat were worn down by playing against such a high quality opponent in the previous round.
   1549. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 17, 2022 at 10:17 PM (#6077290)
Well, it was nice while it lasted. Cs aren't getting out in transition and their halfcourt offense has stalled. Tatum needs to either drive more or hit the threes he's missing.
   1550. SteveF Posted: May 17, 2022 at 10:18 PM (#6077291)
What a disaster of a third quarter. Some of this is Miami, but the Celtics just look dead out there.
   1551. tshipman Posted: May 17, 2022 at 10:18 PM (#6077292)
that was a fast turnaround
   1552. Hombre Brotani Posted: May 17, 2022 at 10:19 PM (#6077293)
What a disaster of a third quarter. Some of this is Miami, but the Celtics just look dead out there.
Maybe they were worn down by playing against a high quality opponent in the previous round.
   1553. Cagerfan Posted: May 17, 2022 at 10:19 PM (#6077294)
More ball movement. And the Heat defense is collapsing in on Williams. That can be exploited.
   1554. asinwreck Posted: May 17, 2022 at 10:20 PM (#6077296)
Putting an open bar in the Celtics' locker room at halftime may have been a bad move.
   1555. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 17, 2022 at 10:24 PM (#6077297)
You never know until you try!
   1556. tshipman Posted: May 17, 2022 at 11:08 PM (#6077302)
Jimmy Butler having a very impressive game
   1557. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 17, 2022 at 11:24 PM (#6077304)
Celtics needed Pritchard on offense but he got hunted on defense. Here's hoping Smart's foot is good enough to go on Thursday. Great game by Butler.
   1558. Hombre Brotani Posted: May 17, 2022 at 11:25 PM (#6077305)
That third quarter was everything. Credit to the Cs for not folding after that, but that was a lot to come back from. Butler was fantastic.
   1559. a 57i66135 with a grenade still has a grenade Posted: May 18, 2022 at 01:20 AM (#6077312)
Maybe they were worn down by playing against a high quality opponent in the previous round.
that's ridiculous. don't be ridiculous.
   1560. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: May 18, 2022 at 03:30 AM (#6077313)
Skip Bayless
@RealSkipBayless
·
5h
At home, the Heat are looking dangerously like Game 7 Phoenix.
   1561. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: May 18, 2022 at 08:57 AM (#6077317)
@ShamsCharania·14h
The NBA is discussing a new In-Season Tournament that would begin as soon as the 2023-24 season, sources tell
@TheAthletic @Stadium. With the Play-In Tournament here to stay given its success, concepts are beginning to ramp up on another competitive event.


On one hand, it seems "meaningless". On other hand there's already a 82 game regular season in which a large percentage of the teams try to lose, and another large percentage of the teams don't seem to care if they win or if they lose.

and

@ShamsCharania·14h
The NBA is eyeing a rule change to the “transition take foul” that would award the offensive team with one free throw and retaining possession, sources tell
@TheAthletic @Stadium. Board of Governors vote set for July. The change is similar to current rules in G League.


This seems like a no brainer.
   1562. Cagerfan Posted: May 18, 2022 at 09:05 AM (#6077318)
Yeah, I like that rule, or another that would accomplish the same thing- force the defense to actually play defense.
   1563. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: May 18, 2022 at 10:21 AM (#6077323)
I wonder if just one FT is enough to stop teams from doing it - or if guys will just get better at making the foul look legit. Like perhaps it should count as a technical foul or something too. I think I see they're not crazy about 2 FTs and the ball, but that would do a better job of stopping it.

I don't know what the answer would be here - and I'm honestly not trying to restart the ban the charge discussion - but I think the league needs to find a way to get guys to stop falling/flopping again to draw offensive fouls. Once again, players on both teams just continuously fell over at the slightest contact and my concern is someone is going to get seriously hurt. The one that stuck out last night was the play where Grant Williams fell and got kicked in the face; Bam initiated contact, but not nearly enough to be an offensive foul and Williams went flailing backwards, fell on the ground, and Bam was free falling; Williams could have gotten seriously hurt but so could have Bam. It's reckless and dangerous, and someone is going to break their arm or face.
   1564. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: May 18, 2022 at 11:31 AM (#6077331)
Maybe they could try and sneak Holmgren and Poku onto the court stuffed into the same uniform.


Heh, i've been reading Calvin & Hobbes with my kids, I'm picturing this.
   1565. nick swisher hygiene Posted: May 18, 2022 at 11:36 AM (#6077332)
1563--I would introduce a new class of technical reserved for, let's call it "foul-seeking behavior.". First instance of foul-seeking behavior by a given player=two shots and the ball; 2nd offense would be ejection--reviewable. If multiple guys are getting tossed per night in early-season games, no big deal: they'd adapt.

But I mean....the problem is fundamental to team sports. And it seems like the team sports fan mentality dislikes visible officiating: the ideal for fans is "the fewest possible visible instances of officiating as necessary to maintain rule-abiding play.". Nobody wants to watch Harden getting chucked for FSB....

   1566. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: May 18, 2022 at 11:50 AM (#6077333)
Nobody wants to watch Harden getting chucked for FSB....

I agree, but maybe he's not the best example
   1567. tshipman Posted: May 18, 2022 at 12:02 PM (#6077335)
I think the league needs to find a way to get guys to stop falling/flopping again to draw offensive fouls. Once again, players on both teams just continuously fell over at the slightest contact and my concern is someone is going to get seriously hurt. The one that stuck out last night was the play where Grant Williams fell and got kicked in the face; Bam initiated contact, but not nearly enough to be an offensive foul and Williams went flailing backwards, fell on the ground, and Bam was free falling; Williams could have gotten seriously hurt but so could have Bam. It's reckless and dangerous, and someone is going to break their arm or face.


The only real way to address it is by giving technical fouls after the game for flopping.

Part of the problem is that the biggest problem in the NBA isn't flopping but embellishment. That play was embellishment to sell the contact. You can't fine someone for doing that, not really, unless you want to be the body control police. It's challenging to solve.
   1568. KronicFatigue Posted: May 18, 2022 at 12:22 PM (#6077336)
1541. Cagerfan Posted: May 17, 2022 at 08:54 PM (#6077272)
They said on the telecast that this is the first time Holmgren has ever worn a suit and tie, and indeed he looked very awkward and uncomfortable. Now I’m rooting for the kid.


I'm easily in the top 1% of suit hating; they are awful, uncomfortable, bad for the environment (thermostat), etc etc etc. I avoid them at all costs and ##### and moan when I do have to wear them. But, how do you go 19 years without having to wear one? Has he never gone to a wedding, funeral, or prom? I need to know more!!
   1569. KronicFatigue Posted: May 18, 2022 at 12:30 PM (#6077337)
Part of the problem is that the biggest problem in the NBA isn't flopping but embellishment. That play was embellishment to sell the contact. You can't fine someone for doing that, not really, unless you want to be the body control police. It's challenging to solve.


This is indeed the issue. The league needs to decide, once and for all, what an offensive player is allowed to do, and how a defender is supposed to react. Is an offensive player allowed to initiate contact? If so, to the point where he is physically moving the defender and gaining position b/c of that contact?

The NBA claims a defender is entitled to his position, even vertically, but it doesn't play out that way. The offensive player smashes into the defender, and that smash causes the defender's vertical arms to come down a bit, and now it looks like the defender hasn't "maintained" their vertical position and it's a defensive foul.

The embellishment "flop" is really just acknowledging the offensive player's initiated contact while refusing to hold your ground b/c holding your ground runs the risk of getting called for the defensive foul.

I don't know what the safety issues would be, but I think I'd prefer a game where there were much fewer fouls called on contact on drives where offensive players initiate the contact and the defenders hold their ground. Maybe something along the line of some contact is allowed anywhere below the top of the shoulders, even if the arms happen to be below that point.

Fake-flopping should be technicals, assessed in quasi real time like how scores are adjusted once video shows a foot on the 3point line etc. The stuff CP etc pull to trick refs is absolutely gross.

   1570. Cagerfan Posted: May 18, 2022 at 12:32 PM (#6077339)
I need to know more!!
I don't know. He went to a private high school and one would think he would wear a suit and tie at graduation. I'm thinking maybe he's poor?
   1571. Fancy Pants Handle struck out swinging Posted: May 18, 2022 at 12:38 PM (#6077340)
1563--I would introduce a new class of technical reserved for, let's call it "foul-seeking behavior.". First instance of foul-seeking behavior by a given player=two shots and the ball; 2nd offense would be ejection--reviewable. If multiple guys are getting tossed per night in early-season games, no big deal: they'd adapt.

But I mean....the problem is fundamental to team sports. And it seems like the team sports fan mentality dislikes visible officiating: the ideal for fans is "the fewest possible visible instances of officiating as necessary to maintain rule-abiding play.". Nobody wants to watch Harden getting chucked for FSB....

Hard disagree. It would be one thing, if umpires/referees called contact fairly, on plays where players don't embellish. But there is overwhelming evidence that they just don't. If you don't go down on a charge, you will at best get a no call, and quite possibly get a blocking foul called against you. Even if there was a clear offensive foul. If you all but take away the threat of a charge call, you are basically going to see offensive players initiate contact essentially every drive, and there will be no reasonable way to defend.

This is first and foremost an officiating issue. Fix officiating, and they you can talk about fixing embellishment.
   1572. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 18, 2022 at 12:38 PM (#6077341)
It's pretty easy to imagine, if one were the parent of a child that had the growth spurts it must have taken for Chet Holmgren to achieve his full gangle, not buying your kid a suit because he would outgrow it in a matter of months anyway. It's probably pretty easy for a kid to skate by in slacks, a collared shirt, and a tie in most formalish situations.

On the flopping/contact issue, I'm with KronicFatigue. Complete fabrication flopping a la CP3 is ugly and bad for the game. Embellishment flopping, like Grant Williams did last night, is less clearcut to me. Defenders don't get calls on offensive fouls if they don't go down (Udoka said a ref told him directly in the Bucks series that Cs defenders wouldn't get calls if they didn't fall), so I think how those calls are reffed needs to change if you want to eliminate the flopping. Much like flopping in soccer, I hate to see it but understand why players do it, as you can't get calls without it. I don't have a solution, other than finding some perfect referees somewhere, but coming down hard on the flopping doesn't really seem like a good solution by itself.

Edit: Fancy Pants beat me to more or less the exact same point, Coke to him.
   1573. Cagerfan Posted: May 18, 2022 at 12:38 PM (#6077342)
The NBA claims a defender is entitled to his position, even vertically, but it doesn't play out that way. The offensive player smashes into the defender, and that smash causes the defender's vertical arms to come down a bit, and now it looks like the defender hasn't "maintained" their vertical position and it's a defensive foul.
This annoys the crap out of me. It's like they threw away the rule book on the law of verticality. One instance, and it happens quite a bit. In game 7 of the Bos/Mil series, Holiday drove baseline and right before elevating, stepped on Smart's foot and stumbled, and caused Smart to stumble as well. So, of course, they call the foul on Smart. But it was Holiday who caused the contact, Holiday who violated Smart's vertical space. A defender is entitled to the space he occupies, and if the offensive player hits into him with such force as to gain an advantage by displacing the defender of his space, that's an offensive foul, and there wouldn't be the necessity for so much acting.
   1574. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: May 18, 2022 at 12:40 PM (#6077343)
Chet went to High School in Minneapolis, so he probably graduated HS in a parka.
   1575. Red Menace Posted: May 18, 2022 at 12:49 PM (#6077345)
But, how do you go 19 years without having to wear one? Has he never gone to a wedding, funeral, or prom?


Teenagers can generally get away with wearing slacks and a nice shirt at weddings and funerals. And keep in mind that any given six month period in this kid's life is one in which he grew 4+ inches. I wouldn't invest in a suit.
   1576. gef the talking mongoose, peppery hostile Posted: May 18, 2022 at 12:52 PM (#6077346)
I'm easily in the top 1% of suit hating; they are awful, uncomfortable, bad for the environment (thermostat), etc etc etc. I avoid them at all costs and ##### and moan when I do have to wear them. But, how do you go 19 years without having to wear one? Has he never gone to a wedding, funeral, or prom? I need to know more!


Courtesy of the JC Penney outlet store in southwest Little Rock I wore a suit (as opposed to a suit jacket & otherwise unrelated dress pants) for my 2nd wedding, & I suppose I wore it on other occasions, or maybe just the jacket & pants in other combinations. I think I wore a subsequent suit for a couple of job interviews. Not sure about my attire for various funerals. (I've never worn a tuxedo & at this late date can't imagine ever doing so, except perhaps at gunpoint, which strikes me as rather unlikely.)

We didn't have a prom back in '77, just a "juniors-seniors banquet," supposedly because of fear of the possibility of *gasp* mixed-race dancing. No idea of whether that predated integration in the 1970-1971 school year; the white half (or 38% these days, the census says) of my hometown was & I'm sure still is rather heavily Southern Baptist, so of course dancing of any sort would be frowned upon.

I think there's a prom these days. Makes me wonder, assuming that's the case, when the practice started.

These days, squeezing into any of my dress jackets, suit-affiliated or not, would be borderline impossible. All the more reason to be cremated when the time comes, I guess.
   1577. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: May 18, 2022 at 01:18 PM (#6077349)
Nobody wants to watch Harden getting chucked for FSB....

Speak for yourself!
   1578. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: May 18, 2022 at 01:19 PM (#6077350)
Chet went to High School in Minneapolis, so he probably graduated HS in a parka.

He went to Minnehaha Academy, right? It's pretty fancy. I'm kind of surprised, but if his opportunities to wear a suit were sort of lined up with growth spurts and such, it's not crazy.
   1579. asinwreck Posted: May 18, 2022 at 01:23 PM (#6077351)
I've never worn a tuxedo & at this late date can't imagine ever doing so, except perhaps at gunpoint, which strikes me as rather unlikely

"No, Mr. Talking Mongoose, I expect you to die!"

This thread makes me much more interested in what Holmgren will wear to the draft. Will it be what he had on for the lottery, or will a designer hear his story and come up with something new?
   1580. tshipman Posted: May 18, 2022 at 03:43 PM (#6077358)
Am I crazy to prefer Banchero at #1?

Chet Holmgren's body terrifies me. Jabari Smith is a weirdly horrible 2p shooter. Jaden Ivey is fine at 4, but doesn't profile as a #1 overall.
   1581. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: May 18, 2022 at 04:06 PM (#6077364)
One of the many positive aspects of teaching at a college for a living is the fact that I do not have to wear anything even resembling a suit.
   1582. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: May 18, 2022 at 04:17 PM (#6077365)
Okay, tship gave me an opening to talk about Duke prospects. I'd say Banchero moves kind of stiffly, but he can get his own shot from anywhere on the floor and plays with some force in the paint. Tatum was a more natural scorer, but Paolo isn't that far behind. From the previews I've read, I prefer Jabari, but I don't think preferring Paolo is insane. He's going to have a high floor.

I don't get the love for AJ Griffin. He can shoot pretty well, but doesn't offer anything else, plus he has an iffy medical history.
   1583. GregD Posted: May 18, 2022 at 04:48 PM (#6077373)
Okay, tship gave me an opening to talk about Duke prospects. I'd say Banchero moves kind of stiffly, but he can get his own shot from anywhere on the floor and plays with some force in the paint. Tatum was a more natural scorer, but Paolo isn't that far behind. From the previews I've read, I prefer Jabari, but I don't think preferring Paolo is insane. He's going to have a high floor.
I'm no Duke fan but I think Paolo is tremendous and is scoring to score A LOT of points in the NBA. He's a really gorgeous offensive player.
   1584. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: May 18, 2022 at 05:10 PM (#6077374)
I have Jabari and Holmgren in my top tier, with Banchero alone in tier 2.

I grew up poor adjacent and still had suits from Goodwill or whatever when the occasion called for it. (Which wasn't often as a kid.) I did not, however, grow up with a seven foot tall dad who might have a take on how important it was or wasn't to wear a suit as a super tall guy that didn't comport with other people's thinking here...

Love changing the transition take foul rule...
   1585. tshipman Posted: May 18, 2022 at 05:18 PM (#6077376)
Really great video by Ben Taylor on the Suns/Mavs series.

Taylor highlights how effectively the Mavs took away the Suns' pet plays, and how they prevented Luka from getting targeted.
   1586. If on a winter's night a traveling violation Posted: May 18, 2022 at 05:36 PM (#6077378)
Strong agree with 1571. If defenders were able to consistently get offensive foul calls without embellishing contact, they would stop embellishing so much: besides putting yourself at risk, falling over takes you out of the rest of the play. If, after this adjustment, flops remain common enough to warrant further changes, then it's fair to have that conversation, but not before: it would too strongly incentivize a minimally creative, graceless, and injury-prone brand of offense in a league full of creative, graceful beeftanks.
   1587. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: May 18, 2022 at 08:53 PM (#6077404)
   1588. Cagerfan Posted: May 18, 2022 at 09:00 PM (#6077405)
I’m curious to see how the Warriors intend to defend Luka.
   1589. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 18, 2022 at 09:05 PM (#6077406)
Does anyone else mix up Tim Connelly and Tim Donaghy for reasons of phonetic similarity, or is that just a me thing?
   1590. tshipman Posted: May 18, 2022 at 09:30 PM (#6077409)
When was the last time Steph started a game 0-3 from the charity stripe?
   1591. asinwreck Posted: May 18, 2022 at 09:46 PM (#6077414)
I thought the Nuggets were crazy to let Masai Ujiri go to Toronto, but they've done very well under Connelly, both with the roster and building the front office. I suppose Calvin Booth would get promoted in Denver if Connelly goes to Minnesota.

Two Nuggets execs to watch if Connelly leaves are Rafael Juc (international scout) and Tommy Balcetis (AGM).
   1592. sardonic Posted: May 18, 2022 at 10:09 PM (#6077420)
Loving these earlier starts now that I'm on the east coast. Last two threes by the Ws fired over late closeouts by Doncic. Ws making him work on the defensive end with ball movement, they look way sharper than the last couple games vs. Memphis.
   1593. sardonic Posted: May 18, 2022 at 10:15 PM (#6077422)
Dallas just has no rim protection on the court. Night and day compared to meeting JJJ at the rim, and Dallas is struggling to contain GS on the perimeter after blitzing Steph. When they don't he's going straight to the hole. That said it's still only a 9 point game going into half time, a couple more open 3s go down for Dallas and they'd be right there.
   1594. tshipman Posted: May 18, 2022 at 10:25 PM (#6077425)
man, some of these guys on the Mavs are just chucking.
   1595. tshipman Posted: May 18, 2022 at 10:49 PM (#6077430)
I think the thing that helps the Warriors the most is that they already have the blueprint for facing the Mavs, since it's the same as the LeBron Cavs.
   1596. sardonic Posted: May 18, 2022 at 10:50 PM (#6077431)
Just feels like too many weak links on defense for Dallas... Ws ball movement is catching out Luka, Bertans and they're just hitting everything against weak contests. They won't shoot this well every game but they are consistently getting good looks.
   1597. SteveF Posted: May 18, 2022 at 10:55 PM (#6077432)
Yes. Harder to defend when you don't know exactly what's coming. The Warrior's offense is far less predictable than Phoenix's.
   1598. sardonic Posted: May 18, 2022 at 10:57 PM (#6077433)
Having Frank out there doesn't seem to be helping much and just gives the Ws someone else to help off of on the other end. This game is trending toward over, so maybe Kidd is just throwing things out there to see what sticks for the next game.
   1599. sardonic Posted: May 18, 2022 at 11:05 PM (#6077436)
Who else can't believe that Animal Kingdom is ending?
   1600. sardonic Posted: May 18, 2022 at 11:20 PM (#6077440)
Golden State has landed the first punch. Can Dallas find a way to hold up on the perimeter and put more defensive pressure on the Ws? Can they actually make a 3 next game?
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