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Friday, April 15, 2022

2022 NBA Playoffs thread

I estimate the NBA thread only had 10-12 years of content so we’re in reruns already.

Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: April 15, 2022 at 11:59 AM | 4354 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: narratives, nba, off-topic, playoffs

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   3301. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: June 24, 2022 at 02:10 PM (#6083728)
flip
   3302. tshipman Posted: June 24, 2022 at 02:13 PM (#6083729)
Case 2: Other players aren't at the effectively-perfect level in practice conditions -- maybe they're hitting 90% in practice, and then getting the same 10%-ish penalty dropping them down to 80%. So what's the barrier to them moving themselves into Case 1? Maybe the answer here is basically opportunity costs? They could be putting time into free throw improvement, but given their playing style, they're better off putting into some other aspect of their play? It would take some work to see if that was reasonable -- if I'm right that there's maybe 0.5-1.0 points/game there to be had by free throw improvement, we'd want to know if other practice is likely to do better than that. And some data on interconnectedness of skills is going to matter -- does moving yourself from a 90% to 100% free throw shooter (under practice conditions) improve your other shooting abilities significantly?


I think that the answer is in part opportunity cost (working on FTs means not working on other, more important parts of your game), but there may also be the idea that configuring your jump shot for the best possible FT stroke could make your jump shot worse in game.
   3303. spivey Posted: June 24, 2022 at 02:46 PM (#6083732)
On top of the stuff already mentioned - we know from watching games and the statistics of first FT vs. second FT in games that the muscle memory and getting the feeling for how hard to shoot is a big factor in making the shot. These guys are rarely missing left or right.

I think that's one of the big reasons why free throw shooting in practice is ~100% for many guys, on top of all of the other things. If you shoot over and over again, you remember roughly how hard you need to shoot. Without that, I think you're relying a lot more on coordination.

The guys who only shoot 95% in practice instead of 99% I think are much more likely the group of players who are chosen for the NBA less for their shooting ability, guys who can get in their own head (like Giannis), guys who have a shooting technique that is fine for live ball situations but not ideal for free throws (Tim Duncan is a good example for #3302), guys who are stronger and/or have less hand-eye coordination (kind of gets into the first point).
   3304. sardonic Posted: June 24, 2022 at 03:11 PM (#6083735)
On case one, one other factor is that in game situations players are shooting in a variety of stadiums, all with different shooting backgrounds, rims that have slightly different amounts of give, etc. Vs. typical practice situations are always in the same gym looking at the same thing with the same rims. Again, this is on the margins, but one of those things that takes 100% down to 90%.

On case two, another factor is that most players just don't shoot that many free throws. Just looking at the Warriors this past year, only 4 players attempted >2 FT per game. Most players were right around 1 FTA per game. So moving that number by 10 percentage points is one extra free throw every 10 games (basically around two weeks in calendar time) and about 8 extra per season. If you're Otto Porter Jr. or Juan Toscano Anderson (two guys I picked because they were at exactly 1.0 FTA per game), I'd imagine that getting that extra 1 FT made every two weeks is probably not the highest developmental priority. OPJ attempted 3.4 3 pointers per game for example, so 3x as many as FTA, and each one is worth 3x as much as a free throw. JTA would probably be best served to focus improving his defense and rebounding because that's what he's on the floor to do.

   3305. asinwreck Posted: June 24, 2022 at 05:31 PM (#6083748)
D'Antoni denied.
Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn
ESPN Sources: Steve Clifford has agreed to a deal to return as the Charlotte Hornets’ coach. Clifford, one of league’s most respected coaches among his peers, led Hornets to two playoff trips in a five-year run that ended in 2018.
   3306. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 24, 2022 at 05:35 PM (#6083749)
Regarding free throws, I am not expert or anything, but I do think there is a mental aspect to it. It is the rare moment in BBall when the players can actually think, standing still, and game pressure definitely seems to come into play, versus practicing free throws not in the game.
   3307. tshipman Posted: June 24, 2022 at 06:13 PM (#6083755)
How do you not write that as "D'Antoni D'Enied"?

In two years, maybe they can fire Clifford and bring in a young coaching talent like Borrego.
   3308. asinwreck Posted: June 24, 2022 at 06:18 PM (#6083756)
How do you not write that as "D'Antoni D'Enied"?
I never worked for the Post.
   3309. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: June 24, 2022 at 10:51 PM (#6083782)
Bennedict Mathurin is ready to go:

Fast forward to this past season at Arizona where Mathurin was a consensus second-team All-American and the Pac-12 player of the year, which he parlayed into going sixth overall in the 2022 NBA Draft to the Indiana Pacers. In a new piece by Ben Golliver of the Washington Post, Mathurin explained that he’s excited for his first game against LeBron James and the Los Angeles Lakers. Why? Well…

“A lot of people say he’s great,” Mathurin said to Golliver. “I want to see how great he is. I don’t think anybody is better than me. He’s going to have to show me he’s better than me.”


link
   3310. Howie Menckel Posted: June 25, 2022 at 12:00 AM (#6083788)
Incidentally, the best professional free throw shooter isn't Steph Curry. It's Elena Delle Donne of the WNBA with a career 93.7% mark. She made 114 out of 117 in 2019, which is just ridiculous.

that IS the highest percentage of free throws made, for sure.

but "best"? that's a quantum leap.

that 2019 number came in 29 games.

I had no idea about the challenges of "playing 82 games" until I traveled to about 75 in a season, over and over.

the players - they were younger, and incredibly fitter, and they flew first-class, and they had aides to handle all their personal needs. AND they busted their ass for 35 to 40 minutes per game, in a 4-game, 5-night trip from the opposite coast.

the writers - older, fatter, flying coach (full disclosure - in the 1990s we got upgraded to first class a lot but still not in a private jet) AND no aides AND no, you know, racing up and down the court.

all that not balancing out, obviously. what you DID learn is that there is zero comparison for a highly competitive athlete between a 29-game schedule and an 82-game schedule.

give Curry or Calvin Murphy or Mike Newlin or Rick Barry that short a schedule and.....

sorry, I can't call her "the best" given the different sample sizes.

I'll of course give you "most accurate in a season."

but the miles - they add up. for everyone.

   3311. Fancy Pants Handle struck out swinging Posted: June 25, 2022 at 12:43 AM (#6083791)
The very best FT shooter of all time never played in the NBA though.

The best FT shooter in college last year was Foster Loyer (great name btw) who will not receive any kind of NBA play.

This is kinda silly. Just because NBA players aren't selected purely on their ability to hit FTs doesn't mean that it is not selected for at all. Yes, you obviously need to be able to do things other being able to shoot from the line to be viable in the NBA. But FT shooting in correlates very well with shooting ability in general. That's why people look at it as a way of normalising for different contexts. And shooting ability is very obviously hugely valuable, and 100% selected for (albeit it not exclusively!).
   3312. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: June 25, 2022 at 06:54 AM (#6083794)
Adrian Wojnarowski on ESPN: The only team with “actual interest” in Kyrie Irving is the Lakers. The Clippers, Mavs, and 76ers are out, and Miami is showing little interest.
   3313. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 25, 2022 at 07:49 AM (#6083795)
It seems that few teams wish to ride the Kyrie Thrill ride, as the last few teams to take it ended up in hospital with various injuries. But those that survive will be rich!
   3314. DCA Posted: June 25, 2022 at 08:07 AM (#6083796)
What the most money the Lakers can pay Kyrie without doing a S&T for Westbrook?

I think they can give him $24m in first-year salary if they trade everyone except LeBron/AD/Westbrook to the Knicks. That's not going to be enough, is it?

Not counting that I think that puts them basically at the apron with only those 4 guys, so more moves would be needed to actually have a full roster.
   3315. PJ Martinez Posted: June 25, 2022 at 09:27 AM (#6083798)
Seems like there's a team missing from the list in 3312?
   3316. Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman Fred Posted: June 25, 2022 at 09:42 AM (#6083799)
[3310] Frankly, anyone making the quantum leap of using FT rate to assess FT shooting ability is probably pushing an agenda.
   3317. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: June 25, 2022 at 09:58 AM (#6083800)
[3315] I, for one, expect Kyrie to sign with the Orlando Magic. How do you stop a backcourt of Kyrie and Jalen Suggs with Banchero, Wagner, WCJ up front? That's a dynasty.
   3318. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: June 25, 2022 at 11:25 AM (#6083803)
[3315] I, for one, expect Kyrie to sign with the Orlando Magic. How do you stop a backcourt of Kyrie and Jalen Suggs with Banchero, Wagner, WCJ up front? That's a dynasty.
"the problem with this thread isn't that we have too many 57i66135; it's that we have too few"
   3319. Mike A Posted: June 25, 2022 at 12:21 PM (#6083809)
You could add Delle Donne's 9 playoff games in 2019, which would get her to 40 games - half of an NBA season - and she shot 95.8% overall (she struggled in the playoffs that year, going 23-26 versus 32-32 the year before). Still not the best of all-time, that's Jose Calderon's 2009 season where he shot 98.1%.

If the 'grind' of the NBA season significantly affected free throw rates, I couldn't find much in an admittedly unscientific glance. I looked at the top 10 NBA free throw shooters of all-time and seasons where they only played 30-50 games. They shot roughly the same overall from the FT line, and there were no big outliers (Stojo's 2006 was the highest at 93.3%, 98/105, 31 games). I'm not saying there's no effect of the 'grind' - I think there has to be some - but I'm not convinced it is huge.

Perhaps a better argument 'against' Delle Donne is the size difference between the men and women's ball. The smaller dimensions of the women's ball mean it's easier to miss rim and 'swish.' However, the women's ball has more bounce so if you do hit rim, it's more likely to miss. I find one study saying the women's ball was actually slightly harder for FTs, but it's certainly something that isn't settled. But to that end, Delle Donne's WNBA FT career mark is still 4 percentage points over the next highest WNBA player.

Does this mean Delle Donne is the greatest professional FT shooter? Who knows. My guess is if you put her, Steph, Rick Barry, Nash, etc, etc in an open gym...they'd all hit between 96-98 FTs out of 100. At their level, it's a bounce here, a bounce there. But I don't see much of an argument that Delle Donne isn't among the greats. As a side, Delle Donne is 6'5", which is interesting because the only players taller than her in the NBA top 10 FT% are Stojo and Rick Barry (who obviously shot his FTs a little...different).

So I guess we can say 'Elena Delle Donne has the best free throw percentage by a fairly significant margin among professional basketball players' if that makes everybody happy. I'm not touching the 'agenda' argument because it's ridiculous.
   3320. smileyy Posted: June 25, 2022 at 05:23 PM (#6083844)
Something to remember about the fatigue factor is that the WNBA was at that point (and disgracefully still is) flying commercial airlines.
   3321. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: June 25, 2022 at 05:47 PM (#6083854)
Trail Blazers star Damian Lillard wants to team up with Brooklyn Nets star Kevin Durant in Portland after the two were teammates with Team USA at the Tokyo Olympics.

Lillard posted a photoshop of Durant in a Trail Blazers uniform to his Instagram story. Jusuf Nurkic also reposted the photo on Twitter, insisting that Durant could be the missing piece to the puzzle in Portland




link
   3322. smileyy Posted: June 25, 2022 at 05:52 PM (#6083856)
There's something humorous about the notion that Durant could be a missing piece. Yeah, no ####. For every team.
   3323. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: June 25, 2022 at 06:18 PM (#6083858)
Yeah, no ####. For every team.


Indeed. But Durant going to Portland would be quite a narrative set-up, to say the least.
   3324. tshipman Posted: June 25, 2022 at 06:36 PM (#6083862)
Why would Kevin Durant want to remake the Warriors, but worse?
   3325. smileyy Posted: June 25, 2022 at 06:43 PM (#6083864)
No Draymond Green to put up with? (And ofc. at the same time, to benefit from)
   3326. spivey Posted: June 25, 2022 at 07:15 PM (#6083868)
Durant is gonna want to go somewhere if they let Kyrie walk. Brooklyn can probably get a better package than they gave up for Harden. Also, they gave up too much for Harden, and I think I said that at the time. That could let them have an average-ish restart if they just bottom out. They could probably get some minor stuff for Simmons too.

Anyways, Portland has nothing near good enough to get Durant. I think the offers will be closer to Zion Williamson, Ingram+, Jaylen Brown, Ayton+Bridges+FRP, 3 random good assets from San Antonio/Toronto, etc.
   3327. tshipman Posted: June 25, 2022 at 07:31 PM (#6083869)
Anyways, Portland has nothing near good enough to get Durant. I think the offers will be closer to Zion Williamson, Ingram+, Jaylen Brown, Ayton+Bridges+FRP, 3 random good assets from San Antonio/Toronto, etc.


This, but I think with the added wrinkle that Durant will want to play with someone he's tight with.

The most random team I can think of would be the Bulls due to DeRozan being there. Otherwise, probably just Miami with Butler/Lowry. They have the salary match, and the willingness to go big.

   3328. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: June 25, 2022 at 08:08 PM (#6083872)
Towns for Durant.
   3329. DCA Posted: June 25, 2022 at 08:15 PM (#6083873)
Westbrook for Durant obviously
   3330. DCA Posted: June 25, 2022 at 08:28 PM (#6083874)
More seriously

Raptors (Siakam or Trent + Anunoby is a salary match). Raptors have shown they will push in their chips for an elite upgrade.

Memphis (JJJ)
   3331. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: June 25, 2022 at 08:32 PM (#6083875)
Otherwise, probably just Miami with Butler/Lowry. They have the salary match, and the willingness to go big.


I do not see Riley doing it unless he could keep Butler. I have been playing around with FANSPO while watching baseball, and Adebayo/Herro or Adebayo/Robinson works. I am not saying that Brooklyn would or should do that, even with a bunch of picks/other stuff added. But Miami and Phoenix would seem like the two teams most likely to want to do a Durant deal. I think Boston will stay with Brown/Tatum, and New Orleans will see if Williamson can actually play, but ofc this is Kevin Durant we are talking about.

And maybe Toronto too as noted.
   3332. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: June 25, 2022 at 08:40 PM (#6083876)
Yeah, Durant to Memphis for Jackson/Brooks works as per FANSPO.

Durant on the team that has some nasties with Golden State would be kind of cool.
   3333. Mike A Posted: June 25, 2022 at 08:44 PM (#6083877)
The Heat package for Durant would be pretty bad if they don't trade Butler or Bam. There are a lot of teams that could offer more, and the Nets don't actually have to trade KD.

Maybe the Heat can get a third team involved, but would teams really be knocking down the door for Tyler Herro and parts?

That said, the Heat are the KD Vegas betting favorites right now, with the Grizzlies 2nd and the Hawks 3rd. Hawk rumors saying they'll offer a truckload.
   3334. Thok Posted: June 25, 2022 at 08:45 PM (#6083878)
Why would Kevin Durant want to remake the Warriors, but worse?


From a career narrative point of view, getting Portland over the championship hurdle is worth more than making a Warriors team that already won one championship unstoppable. It's basically the same legacy that Kawhi earned in his one year in Toronto (and that team prior to acquiring Kawhi was closer to competing for a championship than the current Trailblazers seem to be without Durant).
   3335. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: June 25, 2022 at 08:46 PM (#6083879)
I’m not actually being funny. I’d do Towns + picks for Durant in a second.
   3336. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: June 25, 2022 at 08:47 PM (#6083880)
The Heat package for Durant would be pretty bad if they don't trade Butler or Bam


Yeah, I think it would absolutely include Adebayo, and I don't think Riley would include Butler, like I said. Among those three teams, I would like to see Durant in Atlanta.
   3337. tshipman Posted: June 25, 2022 at 08:55 PM (#6083882)
I think KD will end up largely where KD wants to end up. So it will be the Heat if he wants that with either Butler or Bam, whoever KD prefers to play with.

Yeah, Durant to Memphis for Jackson/Brooks works as per FANSPO.

Durant on the team that has some nasties with Golden State would be kind of cool.


This is the deal that you hold on to your powder for with Memphis, but who knows if KD wants to play with Ja or not. They can probably make the best offer. I love Memphis as a city, but I gather it is one of the lower preference NBA markets for stars.
   3338. PJ Martinez Posted: June 26, 2022 at 08:50 AM (#6083912)
If I'm Brooklyn, I ask Memphis for both Jackson and Bane, and if I'm Memphis I say no. All probably moot, because it seems unlikely Durants wants to go there.

Durant for Adebayo and Duncan Robinson (I think that makes the salaries work?) makes the most sense to me.
   3339. KronicFatigue Posted: June 26, 2022 at 12:07 PM (#6083915)
KD needs to go to a team that is a bit under the radar in terms of talent. Somewhere where, even if he declines a bit, him being the "final piece" puts them squarely in the driver's seat. Portland's not good enough. Memphis has too good a reputation at this point. Something like Denver or Chicago, or maybe even Miami.
   3340. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: June 26, 2022 at 12:52 PM (#6083921)
The most random team I can think of would be the Bulls due to DeRozan being there. Otherwise, probably just Miami with Butler/Lowry. They have the salary match, and the willingness to go big.

Not that random, if you ask certain Bulls fans.

Brooklyn can probably get a better package than they gave up for Harden. Also, they gave up too much for Harden, and I think I said that at the time. That could let them have an average-ish restart if they just bottom out.

They could, but I'm not sure they will. If Durant wants out, he's going to pick his exact spot so I don't think the Nets will have enough leverage to turn it into a bidding war; I'll go as far to say as they'll definitely get less for Durant than they gave up for Harden.
   3341. Harlond Posted: June 26, 2022 at 01:27 PM (#6083924)
A Miami core of Butler, Lowry, and Durant would be quite a bit older than virtually all other championship teams. In a little bit of looking, the only team that seems comparable is the Bull's last championship team, where Jordan, Rodman, and Harper were all 34 or older and Pippen was 32. And I think the Miami trio is maybe a bit more injury prone than the Bulls. Certainly Durant is far more injury prone than Jordan was. If I was a Miami fan, I'd be apprehensive about getting so old, even if Durant is an all-time great.
   3342. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: June 26, 2022 at 01:40 PM (#6083925)
A Miami core of Butler, Lowry, and Durant would be quite a bit older than virtually all other championship teams.


Throwing Lowry into the "core" might be moving the goalposts a little bit. Durant and Butler would be in their age 33 and 34 seasons. Garnett/Allen/Pierce were 31/30/32 (the year they won, and then of course 33/32/34 when they almost won). Olajuwon and Drexler were 32. Curry/Klay/Draymond were 33/31/31 just now. Kobe and Pau were 31 and 29. Duncan/Ginobili/Parker were 37/36/31 (yes I know Kawhi was probably the best player on that team).

And such a hypothetical team, other than Lowry, would have young role players. Among the 11 Heat who played serious minutes last year, Lowry, Tucker (36 and might not be back), Butler, and Dedmon (32 and a bit part) were the only four over 27.

Maybe on the older side for a star duo, but not crazy old or anything especially with modern HGH aging curves.
   3343. Thok Posted: June 26, 2022 at 02:01 PM (#6083928)
Portland's not good enough


In terms of obtaining Durant, it doesn't matter how good Portland, just how good Durant thinks Portland could be. Is it clear that 2021-22 Portland with a returning Lillard is that much worse than 2018-19 Brooklyn with a pending upgrade from D'Angelo Russell to Kyrie Irving?
   3344. Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman Fred Posted: June 26, 2022 at 03:18 PM (#6083939)
Durant to Portland needs to happen, if only to make Oregonians quite whining about NorCal transplants. (Yes I know he stopped in NY first)
   3345. Harlond Posted: June 26, 2022 at 03:20 PM (#6083941)
Throwing Lowry into the "core" might be moving the goalposts a little bit.
It wasn't me, it was Miami, they're the ones who acquired him in a sign-and-trade for 3 years/$85 million and then gave him the second-most minutes on the team. I wouldn't argue with anybody saying Durant and Butler were a duo capable of leading a team to a championship, but even your post supports the idea that they are older than is common for the best players on a championship team, and when you add Lowry, that's very old for a championship team.

(Ginobili, BTW, was sixth in minutes on that Spurs team behind Belinelli and Diaw. )
   3346. . . . . . . Posted: June 26, 2022 at 03:56 PM (#6083959)
If BK is losing both Kyrie and KD, why the F would they want Bam back. Better to bottom out.
   3347. DCA Posted: June 26, 2022 at 04:27 PM (#6083969)
If I'm Miami, I don't think that I give up Bam for Durant. Durant increases their championship probability for 2023, but shortens their window. I think it's a loss in terms of expected championships over multiple years.

Butler, maybe.

Lowry, absolutely, if there are enough other assets available to make it happen.
   3348. asinwreck Posted: June 26, 2022 at 05:06 PM (#6083980)
It would be hilarious if the Kyrie Irving fiasco resulted in the Nets getting Victor Wembanyama.
   3349. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: June 26, 2022 at 06:30 PM (#6083998)
Rich Hoffman @rich_hofmann
Watching some Melton film and got a kick out of Hubie going "Woah, woah!" as he loaded up for an ill-advised step-back 3.

pic.twitter.com/IuImWGbGlu
   3350. PJ Martinez Posted: June 26, 2022 at 06:49 PM (#6084000)
It would be hilarious if the Kyrie Irving fiasco resulted in the Nets getting Victor Wembanyama.
Pretty sure this would mean the Rockets end up with Wembanyama, right?

Bottoming out is a disaster for Brooklyn — they don't control their first-round pick for several years, if I'm not mistaken.
   3351. asinwreck Posted: June 26, 2022 at 10:30 PM (#6084020)
Ah, for some reason, I thought there were light protections on the picks to Houston (like the pick Minnesota sent to Golden State in the Wiggins-Russell trade), but they are completely unprotected.
   3352. tshipman Posted: June 26, 2022 at 10:40 PM (#6084024)
Stepien rule makes it really hard to have protections when sending multiple picks.
   3353. KronicFatigue Posted: June 27, 2022 at 11:08 AM (#6084067)
In terms of obtaining Durant, it doesn't matter how good Portland, just how good Durant thinks Portland could be. Is it clear that 2021-22 Portland with a returning Lillard is that much worse than 2018-19 Brooklyn with a pending upgrade from D'Angelo Russell to Kyrie Irving?


Fair enough, but the narrative on Durant has changed. He took his shot at driving the bus in Brooklyn and failed. He can't fail again. He can't take the "hardest road" with a great team, but he also can't come up short again in his late prime (or early decline). He needs a team with a great front office who can get the exact role players necessary to raise the ceiling. He had a margin for error in 2018 that he no longer enjoys. Both in terms of career window and reputation.
   3354. spivey Posted: June 27, 2022 at 11:29 AM (#6084070)
Bottoming out is a disaster for Brooklyn — they don't control their first-round pick for several years, if I'm not mistaken.


Looks like Houston still has coming to them:

FRPs: 2024, 2026
Rights to swap: 2023, 2025, 2027

Houston should suck this year. So if they bottomed out, at least 2023 Brooklyn will likely get a good pick, but probably not a great one (since Houston gets to take the pick for whoever has the best lottery luck). I agree they probably want young talent to prevent a complete bottom out.

Anyways, I think the most likely scenario is they pay Kyrie. Not the supermax, but I bet they give him enough money to keep the train rolling.

   3355. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: June 27, 2022 at 12:05 PM (#6084074)
Austin Krell @NBAKrell
Source familiar with the situation in Brooklyn described it as “pretty irreparable”.
   3356. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 27, 2022 at 12:10 PM (#6084076)
The Athletic's current report:
Brooklyn Nets All-Star guard Kyrie Irving has received permission from the organization to seek a sign-and-trade, sources confirmed to The Athletic Monday. Irving has a Wednesday deadline to pick up his $36.9 million player option for next season...Multiple sources told The Athletic earlier that the Lakers, Knicks and Clippers are among the teams that could be interested suitors in Irving.
   3357. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: June 27, 2022 at 12:17 PM (#6084079)
Brooklyn Nets All-Star guard Kyrie Irving has received permission from the organization to seek a sign-and-trade, sources confirmed to The Athletic Monday. Irving has a Wednesday deadline to pick up his $36.9 million player option for next season...Multiple sources told The Athletic earlier that the Lakers, Knicks and Clippers are among the teams that could be interested suitors in Irving.
fwiw, i think the clippers make a lot of sense as a waypoint for whatever winds up happening here. that's especially true if there's still some kawhi shenanigans going on behind the scenes (which was a thing not too long ago, but has "kawhi"-ited down in the last 6-ish months while kawhi was rehabbing his knee).


i could also see this whole thing becoming a blowout situation, with kyrie and simmons getting packaged to LAC, and kawhi and/or PG getting shipped to 3rd parties so BRK can kickstart their "rebuild".



trade machine: who says 'no'?
   3358. jmurph Posted: June 27, 2022 at 12:22 PM (#6084080)
Kawhi/Kyrie/PG would be like the widest win variance team ever. Three guys who are very frequently not available.
   3359. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: June 27, 2022 at 12:26 PM (#6084082)
Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn ·1m
ESPN Sources: Outside of the Lakers, there are currently no known teams planning pursuit of sign-and-trades for Nets G Kyrie Irving. No sign-and-trades can be formally discussed until after 6 PM on Thursday. Brooklyn isn't believed to have interest in available Lakers packages.


This is gonna turn into another Simmons situation, isn't it? Only way Kyrie gets out of BKN *and* gets the money he wants is probably if he ends up somewhere he doesn't want to be. But BKN can't wait as long as Philly did to settle this, because Durant might also force his way out.
   3360. PJ Martinez Posted: June 27, 2022 at 12:32 PM (#6084083)
My best guess at a translation: "Brooklyn Nets All-Star guard Kyrie Irving has received permission from the organization to discover for himself that there is no workable sign-and-trade available anywhere in the league, sources confirmed to The Athletic Monday."
   3361. PJ Martinez Posted: June 27, 2022 at 12:33 PM (#6084085)
Sincere question: What do people think Durant does if Irving leaves and Brooklyn refuses to trade him? Does he sit?
   3362. jmurph Posted: June 27, 2022 at 12:34 PM (#6084086)
It's very difficult for me to imagine Durant sitting.
   3363. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 27, 2022 at 12:35 PM (#6084087)
Brooklyn isn't believed to have interest in available Lakers packages.

Unless I'm missing something, a Lakers S&T for Kyrie begins and ends with one of LeBron/AD/Westbrook. Brooklyn has been reported to have zero interest in WB, so if that's true it'll be very interesting to see if Kyrie picks up his option. Is he really willing to turn down the money and play for the MLE in LA? I think this is going to turn into another Simmons situation, unless Kyrie just declines his option and walks entirely. What a dumb mess for everyone involved.

Edit: I'm also very curious about what KD does if Brooklyn tells him to deal with it. He's under contract for far too long to just wait it out, but does BK have the appetite to play that game of chicken? Twitter KD might get out of control in a Simmons situation...
   3364. PJ Martinez Posted: June 27, 2022 at 12:43 PM (#6084090)
I think this whole situation makes more sense (not that it needs to make sense) if you figure that Brooklyn is betting that Durant will play rather than sit. And that strikes me as a very plausible bet. Maybe he'll be a loose cannon on Twitter... and? Durant-Simmons-Harris-Curry-Claxton (or whatever) is still potentially a very good team, and they might even benefit from being free of the Kyrie headache (and the Kyrie defense, or usual lack thereof).
   3365. JJ1986 Posted: June 27, 2022 at 12:44 PM (#6084091)
Unless I'm missing something, a Lakers S&T for Kyrie begins and ends with one of LeBron/AD/Westbrook.
Are they allowed do a dual sign-and-trade with Malik Monk (plus THT and Nunn probably) going back to Brooklyn?
   3366. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: June 27, 2022 at 01:00 PM (#6084094)
The Nets want to get hard-capped for Malik Monk?
   3367. tshipman Posted: June 27, 2022 at 01:05 PM (#6084095)
Kyrie is so hard to predict, it makes the whole thing impossible. Almost every other player in the NBA responds to rational incentives, but Kyrie has shown that he doesn't care.

Edit: allegedly the Laker trade construct has Westbrook being routed to OKC, but I have no idea how the value part works.
   3368. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: June 27, 2022 at 01:27 PM (#6084098)
It's a big week for whoever these people on Twitter are that create the photoshop images of players standing around in new jerseys with hypothetical teammates.
   3369. asinwreck Posted: June 27, 2022 at 01:55 PM (#6084102)
I was not expecting a 20-year-old in 2022 to select a number honoring the late Simeon HS star Ben Wilson (killed in 1984), but that's what Dalen Terry just did.
   3370. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: June 27, 2022 at 02:41 PM (#6084104)
He said his uncle played at Simeon. So guess he's heard the story.
   3371. jmurph Posted: June 27, 2022 at 03:24 PM (#6084109)
Zach Klein @ZachKleinWSB
In talking with multiple sources around the NBA, many believe Hawks on verge of trading for San Antonio's All-Star guard Dejounte Murray - However, it's looking like John Collins is not part of deal. Would be Gallo & multiple 1st round picks. Spurs prepping for future & '23 draft
   3372. Mike A Posted: June 27, 2022 at 03:33 PM (#6084111)
Getting Murray without giving up Collins would be gold. I don't know how Dejounte's fit will be with Trae, but as I've said many times, the Hawks really need a secondary creator to take some of the burden off Young.

Though not without his flaws (mediocre TS%, for one), Murray adds stronger defense and better rebounding than Huerter/Bogi. That would help. And truth be told, Bogi's knees make him difficult to rely on going forward.

I suspect if the Murray trade goes down, Huerter will be on the move as well.
   3373. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: June 27, 2022 at 03:39 PM (#6084113)
I wonder if the team is willing to go into the tax and, if so, how deep? Murray’s not that expensive yet but they’re in it even if they dropped Gallo entirely without taking money back.
   3374. . . . . . . Posted: June 27, 2022 at 03:41 PM (#6084115)
I see the league wide tank-o-rama for Wembanyama is a go.
   3375. MHS Posted: June 27, 2022 at 03:47 PM (#6084116)
Thank you all for the great content. Unplugged from basketball for the last few weeks as playoff grind wore me down!

Catching up via this thread was a blast.

Congrats Warriors fans and Steph!
   3376. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: June 27, 2022 at 03:56 PM (#6084120)
I get the idea of selling high on Murray. I like him, but he’s probably never going to be more valuable than he is right now (and is about to be a lot more expensive).
   3377. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: June 27, 2022 at 04:19 PM (#6084127)
I would like to see Murray on the Twovles.
   3378. tshipman Posted: June 27, 2022 at 04:41 PM (#6084133)
If the Spurs really can get 3 first rounders for Murray, you do that deal instantly.
   3379. spivey Posted: June 27, 2022 at 04:44 PM (#6084135)
3376 - I agree but Murray's still got 2 years left at 17/per before you have to pay him. Both the Spurs and Atlanta have plenty of time to wait on that decision. I don't really know what the Spurs are doing. The Spurs just drafted a few FRPs but are well under the cap, I'm not sure 2 Atlanta picks likely in the late teens move the needle for me much either. The Spurs have been pretty good at drafting even as the rest of the league has passed them in other ways, but they just drafted a couple of guys who can't shoot, the Collins and McDermott signings were really weird. I just dunno.
   3380. MHS Posted: June 27, 2022 at 04:50 PM (#6084137)
There is talk on the twitter that Kyrie is going to opt out and sign for the tax payer MLE with the lakers.

I’d be stunned if he left 30mm on the table, but his choices last year were so outside the box, who fricking knows.



   3381. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 27, 2022 at 04:56 PM (#6084138)
I’d be stunned if he left 30mm on the table, but his choices last year were so outside the box, who fricking knows.

It's not just 30mm, either, if he plans on staying with the Lakers. If he opts out and signs the MLE the Lakers won't have Bird rights for three years, so he won't be able to earn the max with them for several years. Who knows what Kyrie is planning, and betting for him to stay on any team for three years doesn't seem like a good bet, but if he goes to and stays with LA he'd be leaving something like 100mm on the table before they could give him the max.
   3382. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: June 27, 2022 at 05:01 PM (#6084139)
The move for Kyrie (naively) is to see how much NYK would pay - no?
   3383. tshipman Posted: June 27, 2022 at 05:09 PM (#6084141)
There is talk on the twitter that Kyrie is going to opt out and sign for the tax payer MLE with the lakers.

I’d be stunned if he left 30mm on the table, but his choices last year were so outside the box, who fricking knows.


I don't think this works because of the way Bird rights work.

It's one thing for Kyrie to opt out and take the taxpayer MLE for one year. It's another for him to be unable to receive a raise off that level. The only way that would work is if LeBron told Kyrie that LeBron would take less than the max on an extension in order for the Lakers to have the room to give Kyrie a new contract.

Edit: Coke to FTO
   3384. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 27, 2022 at 05:42 PM (#6084149)
Adrian Wojnarowski on Sportscenter: "Numerous teams preparing to pursue Durant if he becomes available. [Kevin Durant] is not really going to have say where he plays. He can be traded anywhere."

Shams is in with Irving's camp, I'm guessing Woj is to some degree talking for Brooklyn, so this may to some degree be posturing to keep KD from asking out, but this sure seems like it's about to get awfully loud awfully fast.
   3385. tshipman Posted: June 27, 2022 at 05:57 PM (#6084150)
Woj has been a Nets FO mouthpiece (edit: A Marks-piece?) for some time now--remember when the Nets were not pursuing Harden trades? I don't think that statement that KD will not have a say is accurate.
   3386. Fourth True Outcome Posted: June 27, 2022 at 06:39 PM (#6084154)
Guess the MLE wasn't enough:

Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania

Kyrie Irving: “Normal people keep the world going, but those who dare to be different lead us into tomorrow. I’ve made my decision to opt in. See you in the fall. A11even.”

Quote Tweet
Shams Charania

Brooklyn Nets star Kyrie Irving is opting into his $37 million player option for the 2022-23 season, @TheAthletic @Stadium has learned.
Irving is bypassing on multiple opt-in and trade scenarios to fulfill his four-year commitment to the Nets and Kevin Durant.
   3387. MHS Posted: June 27, 2022 at 07:00 PM (#6084157)
What a doofus
   3388. tshipman Posted: June 27, 2022 at 07:07 PM (#6084160)
A11even


What the #### does this mean? All even? Eleven? I get that his jersey number is 11. What does "all even" have to do with that statement?
   3389. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: June 27, 2022 at 07:10 PM (#6084161)
Kyrie Irving: “Normal people keep the world going, but those who dare to be different lead us into tomorrow. I’ve made my decision to opt in. See you in the fall. A11even.”

Good lord.
   3390. asinwreck Posted: June 27, 2022 at 07:11 PM (#6084163)
I will really need to make a point to watch Nets Magazine on YES this year.
   3391. tshipman Posted: June 27, 2022 at 07:16 PM (#6084164)
Which is the worst timeline with Kyrie?

He comes to your team and fails, destroying your team from the inside out.
vs.
He comes to your team and succeeds, causing you to root for him and defend him, before destroying your team from the inside out.

At this point, I don't even want to trade Westbrook for him.
   3392. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: June 27, 2022 at 07:24 PM (#6084165)
   3393. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: June 27, 2022 at 07:33 PM (#6084168)
Which is the worst timeline with Kyrie?

He comes to your team and fails, destroying your team from the inside out.
vs.
He comes to your team and succeeds, causing you to root for him and defend him, before destroying your team from the inside out.

At this point, I don't even want to trade Westbrook for him.

lakers fan, eh...
   3394. Fancy Pants Handle struck out swinging Posted: June 27, 2022 at 07:51 PM (#6084173)
What the #### does this mean? All even? Eleven? I get that his jersey number is 11. What does "all even" have to do with that statement?

That's not even the most WTF part of the tweet? "Dare to be different?" That would have been opting out, and leaving like $100m on the table, with no conceivable way of getting paid. Taking the guaranteed money, when nobody wants to back up the truck for you, is what everybody ####### does.
   3395. sardonic Posted: June 27, 2022 at 08:51 PM (#6084180)
Cross sport analogy but I always felt like this saga was similar to the 49ers situation with Deebo Samuel this offseason. I mean was he really gonna take the TPMLE? Who was actually gonna sign and trade for him? Isn't he already ON a top contender?

Was fun to follow but I would have been pretty surprised by any other outcome.

Now a DeAndre/Simmons sign and trade?
   3396. tshipman Posted: June 27, 2022 at 09:00 PM (#6084184)
Isn't he already ON a top contender?


No. Hope that helps.

That's not even the most WTF part of the tweet? "Dare to be different?" That would have been opting out, and leaving like $100m on the table, with no conceivable way of getting paid. Taking the guaranteed money, when nobody wants to back up the truck for you, is what everybody ####### does.


I mean, that's just hypocrisy and delusions of grandeur, which is pretty much baked in at this point.
   3397. sardonic Posted: June 27, 2022 at 09:58 PM (#6084198)
Nets are currently 5th favorites in Vegas at +775, not far behind the favorites at +550 and ahead of Phoenix, Philly, Memphis, Dallas, Miami.

Anything could still happen but I wouldn't bet against them.
   3398. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: June 27, 2022 at 10:23 PM (#6084212)
Wall and the Rockets reach a deal on a buyout (saving HOU 6.5m); he intends to join the Clippers.
   3399. Thok Posted: June 28, 2022 at 06:41 AM (#6084231)
At some point, somebody needs to point out to Irving the aftermath of Andrew Wiggins decision to get vaccinated even though he clearly didn't want to. (Although I'm sure Kyrie can find a way to criticize Wiggins being lauded as the second best player on an NBA champion.)
   3400. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 28, 2022 at 07:07 AM (#6084232)
Wiggins is fine, but he is not leading us into tomorrow.
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