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Friday, April 15, 2022

2022 NBA Playoffs thread

I estimate the NBA thread only had 10-12 years of content so we’re in reruns already.

Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: April 15, 2022 at 11:59 AM | 4354 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: narratives, nba, off-topic, playoffs

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   3701. aberg Posted: July 01, 2022 at 04:32 PM (#6085247)
I have serious concerns about how Kat and Gobert will play together. I don't agree that it makes the team worse, especially considering the specific weaknesses. Like I said before, that's A LOT of draft equity to give up and it scares the pants off of me. Conversely, I have a ton of faith in Connelly and Finch's basketball acumen (not to mention Gupta), so I want to wait to see how it looks.
   3702. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 01, 2022 at 04:39 PM (#6085248)
The different skillsets of the two centers are fascinating, and I am curious to see how they'll deploy both of them and the new power forward they just picked up.


Yeah, this is where I'm at too, though it's fun to just watch the experiment as a non-Wolves fan because I think there is some huge risk that they just don't synergize at all despite their possibly complimentary strengths/weaknesses. I will mostly be rooting for it to work (at least for a season or two, then I want top picks) as a Rudy fan and somewhat of a Wolves and KAT fan.
   3703. aberg Posted: July 01, 2022 at 04:44 PM (#6085250)
This guy is probably has the highest basketball IQ of the Wolves writers:

brittrobson
@brittrobson
·
13m
Those complaining/freaking out about the cost, I get it. Could call it 5 first round picks considering Kessler is one in '22 and never played here. Also 3 of top 7 guys in 21-22 rotation based on MPG (albeit 4-7).
But DPOY 3 of past 5 yrs doesn't come cheap.
   3704. asinwreck Posted: July 01, 2022 at 04:47 PM (#6085251)
I admit that a lot of my enthusiasm is this is a roll of the dice that just made the league a lot less boring. Gobert and Towns are so different that I want to see how this plays out.

The teams I thought would trade for Gobert were Atlanta or Charlotte. This is so far removed from the needs of those rosters and I can't wait to see it in action.
   3705. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: July 01, 2022 at 05:05 PM (#6085256)
I mean, I obviously had a lot less reservations about the deal before we knew it was 4 picks (and a swap). That's just crazy. I guess it should also give the Nets a little more determination in a Durant deal.

Nikola Vucevic @NikolaVucevic ·7m
Glad my offer for the house I found in Salt Lake got rejected then


Heh
   3706. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 01, 2022 at 05:23 PM (#6085259)
I think it’s a very interesting fit, on court wise. I don’t like the cost.
   3707. aberg Posted: July 01, 2022 at 05:27 PM (#6085260)
One funny thing about Connelly is that he built this great team in Denver with a fatal flaw of lacking rim protection and he just invested like $100m per year in centers.

   3708. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 01, 2022 at 05:37 PM (#6085261)
He also technically drafted Rudy Gobert.
   3709. Mike A Posted: July 01, 2022 at 05:53 PM (#6085267)
I think it’s a very interesting fit, on court wise. I don’t like the cost.
Yeah, I thought the Hawk move for Murray was risky. The Gobert move is hitting on 17 in blackjack.

I like Gobert, but kinda figured Utah's playoff performances would reduce his value because of the way teams worked around him. I guess not.

But as many have noted, it's going to be a fascinating experiment in Minnesota.
   3710. aberg Posted: July 01, 2022 at 06:12 PM (#6085270)
Jon Krawczynski
@JonKrawczynski
·
33m
The Timberwolves are over the moon about landing Rudy Gobert. This is the player they believed raised their ceiling more than any other available one. Lots of celebrating internally right now.
Jon Krawczynski
@JonKrawczynski
·
30m
It was a big price to pay. But the Wolves knew that to improve and compete in the West they had to do something big. This qualifies as BIG. 3x All-Star, 3x DPOY. League-leading rebounder. They identified him weeks ago and made it happen. Now they're all in. Let's see what happens
   3711. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 01, 2022 at 06:15 PM (#6085271)
It’s a bet on McDaniels, too.
   3712. spivey Posted: July 01, 2022 at 06:19 PM (#6085272)
Not every contract is tradeable, but if you’re very good, that may be true. Certainly feels like with deal there will be some team(s) that think an all star on ANY contract is a super valuable asset.
   3713. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 01, 2022 at 06:33 PM (#6085274)
I just got home and ... wow. That is something.

I am still processing it, and right now my initial impression is negative. A massive trade like that and we still have Dlo on the roster? The heck?

On the MN gives up stuff side, the early draft picks don't worry me - I am not sure about the playoffs, but this looks like a really good regular season team. Walker K doesn't bother me, not getting Rudy. I don't like losing Vanderbilt or PatBev, but they are hardly irreplaceable. Leandro we hardly knew you. The back end of the pick stream is a bit terrifying though.

I think "Gobert gets played off the court" is a way overdone take. I think team composition had a bunch to do with that, unfortunately, Vando, and PatBev were among the better defenders which would have made Rudy's life easier. Still, Ant and McDaniels are very good defenders (and on the upswing in theory), which is more than Rudy had in Utah.

The hundred million dollar question (like literally) is how well can KAT and Rudy coexist, on the floor and in the locker room. That I admit I have no idea. I can spin a tale of wonder and glory or one of doom and gloom, and neither will be very compelling.
   3714. MGS Hamster Posted: July 01, 2022 at 06:47 PM (#6085279)
Gobert's playoff weakness isn't defense, it's offense. He's better at defending on the perimeter than Jokic or Embiid. The difference is that those guys cannot be guarded in the post by Reggie Jackson or Jalen Brunson. Gobert can, which is why you can play five out against him.

The other model for keeping your center on the court is Milwaukee. Lopez usually has a center to match up against not because of his skills but because Giannis is harder to stop without a big. My guess is that Minnesota is hoping for a similar dynamic. I'm skeptical because Lopez can shoot and Rudy can't, plus Towns doesn't seem like the kind of guy to punish mismatches.
   3715. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: July 01, 2022 at 06:48 PM (#6085280)
The hundred million dollar question (like literally) is how well can KAT and Rudy coexist, on the floor and in the locker room. That I admit I have no idea. I can spin a tale of wonder and glory or one of doom and gloom, and neither will be very compelling.
i think they're likely to have a lot of the same issues that the sixers had with embiid/horford.

if you want to play big, good, but you need personnel that actually plays *BIG*. if you have two (near) seven footers, you need to dominate the paint and you need to bring violence at the rim, or else what's the ####### point? MIN and UTA fans know them better than i do, but i'm pretty sure that towns isn't that kind of guy. and last i checked, gobbert is french.


that being said, they should be talented enough to win 50+ games, and that wasn't necessarily true before this trade happened.



like at least one other team i can think of, MIN just should have kept jimmy butler.
   3716. DCA Posted: July 01, 2022 at 06:57 PM (#6085281)
Why keep Jimmy Butler when you can have Andrew Wiggins or Tobias Harris instead?

Edit: Or Zach Lavine I guess.
   3717. tshipman Posted: July 01, 2022 at 06:59 PM (#6085284)
Gobert's playoff weakness isn't defense, it's offense. He's better at defending on the perimeter than Jokic or Embiid. The difference is that those guys cannot be guarded in the post by Reggie Jackson or Jalen Brunson. Gobert can, which is why you can play five out against him.


It's kind of both. There's a blueprint now to beating a Gobert defense, and that hurts. Last two years, his team's DRTG with him on the court was 115.7 and 118.8--that's a problem.
   3718. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 01, 2022 at 07:03 PM (#6085285)
I think the players around Rudy were a big part of the problem regarding defense. Is MN better off? Well.... maybe.
   3719. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 01, 2022 at 07:09 PM (#6085286)
MIN just should have kept jimmy butler.


No. No thanks. Great player and a raging jackass. Just ... no.
   3720. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: July 01, 2022 at 07:10 PM (#6085287)
pop quiz:

"rudy was traded from portland to denver."


who is rudy?
   3721. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 01, 2022 at 07:11 PM (#6085288)
Gobert's playoff weakness isn't defense, it's offense. He's better at defending on the perimeter than Jokic or Embiid. The difference is that those guys cannot be guarded in the post by Reggie Jackson or Jalen Brunson. Gobert can, which is why you can play five out against him.


Yup. His defense is not nearly as valuable if you can get him away from the basket, and since he can't punish teams on offense, there's zero downside to doing it. I don't know if Wolves can make it work well enough either, but I think Jazz might have had either the worst or close to the worst defense in the NBA outside of Rudy the last 2-3 seasons. Honestly I think Bogdanovic or Clarkson might have been the most consistent perimeter defender last season which.............
   3722. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 01, 2022 at 07:14 PM (#6085289)
I guess Chris Finch has his work set out for him, on offense and defense (and locker room I guess). Interesting times indeed.
   3723. PJ Martinez Posted: July 01, 2022 at 07:24 PM (#6085293)
Free agent Donte DiVincenzo has agreed to a two-year, $9.3M deal with the Golden State Warriors, sources tell ESPN.
   3724. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: July 01, 2022 at 07:28 PM (#6085294)
There's a blueprint now to beating a Gobert defense, and that hurts.


Here's the part I don't understand. Why doesn't every team just deploy this playbook in the regular season? I get that not every team is naturally set up to punish drop coverage, but these days every team *can* play small, has guys who can shoot, etc..
   3725. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: July 01, 2022 at 07:35 PM (#6085297)
3720: you mean rodolfo?
   3726. tshipman Posted: July 01, 2022 at 07:39 PM (#6085298)
Free agent Donte DiVincenzo has agreed to a two-year, $9.3M deal with the Golden State Warriors, sources tell ESPN.


If you're going to do a deal above the minimum, why cheap out with GPII? It's easy for me to say because it's Joe Lacob's money, but I'd much rather have GPII at 28 than Donte at 9.3, particularly as Golden State.
   3727. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 01, 2022 at 07:44 PM (#6085299)
If you're going to do a deal above the minimum, why cheap out with GPII? It's easy for me to say because it's Joe Lacob's money, but I'd much rather have GPII at 28 than Donte at 9.3, particularly as Golden State.


I heard speculation they were gambling a bit and lost with GPII. No clue if it is true though.
   3728. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: July 01, 2022 at 07:59 PM (#6085303)
Donte at 9.3 is a great deal -- if he can get back to where he was 2 years ago. (I'd rather have GP2 as well, of course)
   3729. MGS Hamster Posted: July 01, 2022 at 08:04 PM (#6085304)
With the tax, isn't the difference more like $30M/year?
   3730. tshipman Posted: July 01, 2022 at 08:18 PM (#6085308)
With the tax, isn't the difference more like $30M/year?


Are you trying to win another championship or not? GPII was about 30 million better than DiVincenzo last year. Now there are reasons to believe that won't continue, of course, but are you trying to make money or win a championship?
   3731. DCA Posted: July 01, 2022 at 08:25 PM (#6085310)
Donte is getting OPJ’s money (out of the MLE) not GP2’s.

Edit: trying to make money and win a Championship. Mock GSW offered young glove 2/21 so you know how I feel, but Donte at 2/9.3 is pretty solid too
   3732. Moeball Posted: July 02, 2022 at 02:34 AM (#6085327)
Why do I get the feeling that in the span of a few hours Boston just got better and the Warriors just got significantly worse? Am I drunk?
   3733. The Honorable Ardo Posted: July 02, 2022 at 04:56 AM (#6085328)
Moeball, I can't speak to your sobriety, but I agree with you.

Pistons fans were complaining that Marvin Bagley III got 3/$37. It looks like pocket change now compared to everything else.
   3734. PJ Martinez Posted: July 02, 2022 at 08:04 AM (#6085330)
GSW seems to be banking on their young players stepping up more than anything. I wonder if they played hardball with GPII (if that's what happened) in part because, like Otto Porter, he's on the verge of 30. Divencenzo, OTOH, is 25. Boston's moves seem to me more clearly of the win-now variety.
   3735. Gaelan Posted: July 02, 2022 at 09:38 AM (#6085334)
Trading picks to the end of the decade is crazy. What a league?

Anyway, it is pretty fun when a team zigs when everyone else is zagging, so I'm going to be a Wolves fan for a while.

We are also going to find out something about the value of coaching here. The only way this works is with deft tactics.
   3736. asinwreck Posted: July 02, 2022 at 10:13 AM (#6085337)
A few reports overnight that TJ Warren may sign a one-year deal with the Warriors. He'd be the Otto Porter gamble that the Warriors can keep him healthy enough to offer good offense off the bench.
   3737. MHS Posted: July 02, 2022 at 10:13 AM (#6085338)
I'll be pulling for the wolves too. The Zig/Zag is great but I also love it when teams take big swings and this is a big swing.

I understand why it may not work, heck! probably won't work but a sucker can hope.

Really wonder if moving to power forward allows KAT to still be KAT or the horn falls off the unicorn and were left with just a pretty horse... not sure if that analogy really worked.

   3738. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 02, 2022 at 11:10 AM (#6085341)
I am uneasy but I guess that's part of the deal. You go big, you adopt a big downside risk. I do think that the Wovles as constructed are not dissimilar to the last few good Jazz teams, only with better backcourt defence. I don't know. I do like it when teams buck the prevailing wisdom; it almost always fails, but at least it fails in an interesting way.
   3739. DCA Posted: July 02, 2022 at 11:47 AM (#6085345)
The difference between a TJ Warren gamble and an Otto Porter gamble is that Warren used to be promising, and Porter used to be good.
   3740. spivey Posted: July 02, 2022 at 01:04 PM (#6085349)
Listening to the Pelton Lowe post I’m more down on Jingles. I forgot it was a full acl and on Jan 31. I think he’s more likely to not play at all than be a factor. I think JTA or bringing back Donte with that money would have been way better.
   3741. spivey Posted: July 02, 2022 at 01:06 PM (#6085351)
Donte’s deal with GSW I thought is a 2nd year po so if he’s good he will opt out and cost as much as GP2 anyways. Maybe they are ok with 1 year. Letting JTA go for so little was weird to me. I also just don’t understand why his value isn’t higher.
   3742. tshipman Posted: July 02, 2022 at 01:49 PM (#6085356)
Value in the NBA is so weird. Like, JaVale gets more money than Looney, despite JaVale getting played off the court every year and Looney being a dog in the Finals. Gobert will likely return as many or more draft picks as Durant.

Re: Boston getting better: I think people are underrating Brogdon's injury issues and age. Brogdon is 30 next year and shot 31% from 3. He has only played in 65 games once in his career, his rookie year.

Like, to be clear, still a good move, but high variance.
   3743. asinwreck Posted: July 02, 2022 at 02:03 PM (#6085358)
Gobert will likely return as many or more draft picks as Durant.

I am very curious to see what (if any) role Oklahoma City and/or New Orleans has in the eventual Durant trade. Beyond Gobert and Harden, the price for Jrue Holiday makes me think the Nets are trying to get upwards of seven picks in this trade.

What's the maximum number of teams ever involved in one NBA trade? We could see something spectacular in the Nets' disassembly.
   3744. Fancy Pants Handle struck out swinging Posted: July 02, 2022 at 02:21 PM (#6085362)
Listening to the Pelton Lowe post

For some reason my brain immediately decided to arrange this as Pel-Lowe-ton podcast.
   3745. MHS Posted: July 02, 2022 at 02:35 PM (#6085363)


Boston getting better: I think people are underrating Brogdon's injury issues and age.


Like, to be clear, still a good move, but high variance.



I agree on the first point. Brogdon is a good player if he can stay on the court but he just isn’t likely too - which I think really matters here. The Celtics need non J minutes.

In terms of high variance - I think I agree, largely because there is real opportunity cost in bringing him in. The cost in assets minor but payroll costs are high.

I’ll be curious when he is healthy how they balance his playing time be White’s who Darko thinks is a better player right now.



   3746. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: July 02, 2022 at 02:53 PM (#6085364)
The difference between a TJ Warren gamble and an Otto Porter gamble is that Warren used to be promising, and Porter used to be good.

warren was pretty damn good the last time he played meaningful minutes....5 years ago.

also, the way that both players are theoretically good is very different. porter is a versatile jack of all trades, 3+D but better kind of guy, whereas warren's value is in the fact that, while he isn't really good enough that you want him taking a lot of shots, like (an appropriately paid) tharris, he can take a lot of shots without tanking his efficiency.
   3747. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 02, 2022 at 03:07 PM (#6085365)
Volume scoring at reasonable efficiency is typically overrated by most fans and underrated by most analytic fans (IMO).
   3748. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: July 02, 2022 at 03:07 PM (#6085366)
Milwaukee: As will often happen with teams that stay around the top of the league for awhile, for obvious reasons, they tend to drift old. Matthews will be 36 in October, and Ingles will be 35 the same month and is coming off the ACL as noted. Holiday just turned 32 and Middleton turns 31 this month. This is not to say that Milwaukee is not a strong contender, but I took note of this when they brought back Matthews and added Ingles, while trading DiVicenzo in Feb.
Golden State: As one of their guys here noted, they are banking on young players, which I think is generally a pretty good idea. I think top-tier teams sometimes focus too much on exp and not enough on young legs. But Payton II, JTA and Porter are not old, so I would question that sequence of moves. I think GS probably should have kept GPII.
Minnesota: Now perhaps the most interesting team in the NBA. Is Towns/Edwards/Gobert a Finals-level "Big 3" with enough help and a good coach? I think it is really ballsy to go with two max-contract bigs in today's league, and especially ballsy to do it by trading an assload of picks and some decent players to another team in the conference that is pretty well-run. I think that Minnesota should have tried to keep Beverley out of the deal, and maybe they did but Utah insisted on getting him.
Utah: I have seen stuff saying that they are planning to "build around Donovan Mitchell." Mitchell is a very good player obviously, but I am not sure that is a good idea if that is actually the plan.
Boston: I checked out Brogdon's numbers in detail last year because as I discussed here, Brogdon/Hield was the first Westbrook rumor. Like shipman said, the guy is 30. He played 36 games last year, and 56 and 54 the two previous ones. His 3P% cratered to .312 last year but it is .376 career. He is owed around 72M through 2025. All that said, Boston is pretty smart, so if they think he is a key missing piece, they should probably get the BOTD. I also think the early title favorites should be Boston and Phoenix/Miami if one of them gets Durant (and I think they will), with GS and MIL a tick behind. As spivey pointed out last month, Brown has shown an ability to make shots and create points, and that was the biggest difference between what Boston was in postseason and my perception of them.

   3749. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: July 02, 2022 at 03:08 PM (#6085367)
3747

Agreed.
   3750. tshipman Posted: July 02, 2022 at 03:44 PM (#6085372)
TJ Warren: the big question is if he will ever play, and if he's any good. The 2020 version of TJ Warren would be a great fit on the Warriors, providing decent wing rebounding, shooting and acceptable defense.

I think he's pretty similar in macro terms to OPJ last year, although they accrue value in different ways, both players are high upside, low reliability players. If you knew which one would be healthy and play well, you'd be very rich.

I do think OPJ is getting a bit overrated in this conversation? He is a good team defender, but he was only effective with Draymond and Steph on the court. That's valuable! But I think if you're a dependent player on offense and on defense, you are much more replaceable.
   3751. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 02, 2022 at 04:43 PM (#6085380)
I hope that McDaniels pays off the faith the Wovles have in him. There are times you can squint and see a real defensive terror with a pretty OK looking shot, and times when he still looks lost.
   3752. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 02, 2022 at 05:23 PM (#6085386)
They are counting on both Edwards and McDaniels to take the next step. If it happens (and if KAT and Rudy can play together) then this team could be very very good. It is a high-variance play.
   3753. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 02, 2022 at 05:26 PM (#6085387)
So I was thinking about the trade while walking the dog, and it occurred to me that Tim C had been the GM for like five minutes and he make a huge move. He could have held off until the next offseason (or even during the next season) and had a ton of assets to make a big move, but he decide to make the big move right now.

Either he thinks this is it, ownership was antsy, or he was constrained by previous ownership, and now that he has the authority he can wheel and deal (or some combination).
   3754. An Athletic in Powderhorn, Silly Posted: July 02, 2022 at 05:45 PM (#6085391)
If you're going to do a deal above the minimum, why cheap out with GPII? It's easy for me to say because it's Joe Lacob's money, but I'd much rather have GPII at 28 than Donte at 9.3, particularly as Golden State.
I think the Warriors would too. My guess is they made an offer to Payton that they thought he'd accept, then, when he didn't, Donte was their consolation prize.
   3755. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 02, 2022 at 05:50 PM (#6085392)
They are counting on both Edwards and McDaniels to take the next step. If it happens (and if KAT and Rudy can play together) then this team could be very very good. It is a high-variance play.

I am assuming that Edwards is the second coming of Wade, please do not disabuse me of this notion yet.
   3756. asinwreck Posted: July 02, 2022 at 06:05 PM (#6085393)
[Bulls Summer League Coach John] Bryant was quick to heap praise on second-year big man Marko Simonović for the work he’s done on his body this offseason. And it’s true. Even from across the practice court, Simonović’s gains are noticeable compared to his more wiry frame last season.

“He's bigger than me, and I pride myself on being a big really fit guy. His shoulders look like a grown man,” Bryant said of Simonović. “He's obviously been working, he's obviously been doing something — he's been eating at least. But he looks great.”
   3757. Roger McDowell spit on me! Posted: July 02, 2022 at 07:14 PM (#6085400)
Are you trying to win another championship or not? GPII was about 30 million better than DiVincenzo last year. Now there are reasons to believe that won't continue, of course, but are you trying to make money or win a championship?


I'm disappointed GP2 isn't going to be back, but I think that 3rd year and the bump in salary from what GSW was offering was a real difference maker. It's not just the added tax from that contract - Curry's deal goes up about $4mil a year, Klay's about $3mil, Draymond's $2mil and after this season they are going to have to pay Poole (salary going from $4mil to, if he repeats last season, $20+ mil) and make a decision on Wiggins. There comes a point where the luxury tax payments (especially as a repeater) simply add up to too much - maybe it's not a horrible line to cross this season, but it's only going to get worse if you don't draw the line and give regular rotation minutes to Moody, Kuminga and Wiseman and why you are OK with Donte having a player option in the 2nd year.
   3758. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: July 02, 2022 at 08:22 PM (#6085411)
[Bulls Summer League Coach John] Bryant was quick to heap praise on second-year big man Marko Simonović for the work he’s done on his body this offseason. And it’s true. Even from across the practice court, Simonović’s gains are noticeable compared to his more wiry frame last season.
YO!!!


fun fact:
john bryant is the guy from st joes that john chaney sicced his goon on, back in 2003.


bonus fun fact:
said goon is now a probation officer in georgia.
   3759. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: July 02, 2022 at 09:44 PM (#6085414)
Pistons fans were complaining that Marvin Bagley III got 3/$37. It looks like pocket change now compared to everything else.


Counterpoint: Marvin Bagley is bad at basketball, and paying eight figures to someone who is bad at basketball is bad no matter what other people are doing.
   3760. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 03, 2022 at 10:35 AM (#6085434)
I am assuming that Edwards is the second coming of Wade, please do not disabuse me of this notion yet.


I am reminded of a Duncd'on on episode where the question was what is Ant if he hits his 90% projection. They went on for a bit, this and that, and then stopped and were like "Well, he is a Hall of Fame player if that happens."
   3761. PJ Martinez Posted: July 03, 2022 at 11:33 AM (#6085436)
The most likely Kyrie/Westbrook trade (in my opinion)

Lakers - get Kyrie and Joe Harris
Nets - get Russ, Kendrick Nunn and draft compensation

From Ryan McDonough, former Suns GM, on Twitter.

The reported Curry/Harris argument (Laker insisting on the former, Nets insisting on including the latter) is interesting. Obviously the Nets prefer to move Harris at least in part for financial reasons. But is he also further away from a full recovery than has been reported? Or is it a fit issue? Or a leverage play by LA (demand Curry, accept Harris in exchange for some other concession)? Because I tend to think of him as a more valuable player than Curry when both are right.
   3762. JJ1986 Posted: July 03, 2022 at 11:50 AM (#6085437)
Unless the Nets are getting real draft picks, I'd rather just buyout Kyrie.
   3763. DCA Posted: July 03, 2022 at 12:08 PM (#6085438)
Counterpoint: If I'm the Nets, I might prefer Westbrook to Kyrie for 2022-23. If I can get something else out of the exchange (e.g. Nunn, THT, picks) that seems to be a no-brainer. Because they can't bottom out, it makes sense for the Nets to stay decent and preserve roster flexibility if there comes an opportunity to step back forward to contention.
   3764. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: July 03, 2022 at 12:19 PM (#6085439)
if i was sean marks, i'd get a meeting with durant and his people. i'd go in as if durant was a free agent, and i'd give them a presentation showing what i did to resurrect the barren ####### ######## of a franchise that the nets were before i got there. i'd tell them to trust me for another year; that i will get durant the help he needs to win a title.


and then i'd trade kyrie and simmons to ####### minnesota or cleveland or utah.
   3765. asinwreck Posted: July 03, 2022 at 01:01 PM (#6085440)
The reporting in NYC makes it seem like Joe Tsai is fed up with both Durant and Irving, wants them gone, and Sean Marks is working with his employer's wishes. If that is the case, no point in Marks trying to convince Durant to stay.
   3766. JJ1986 Posted: July 03, 2022 at 01:36 PM (#6085441)
I think obviously Brooklyn should trade KD first and see what return that brings since he'll bring back much more. Assuming they keep Simmons and he can play, though, I think pairing him with Westbrook is terrible for his development and Ben is suddenly the central piece (or one of if they get somebody like Ayton) of the team instead of a third option. I also think both Harris and Curry are valuable players (depending on Joe's injury) and if the Nets are going to take Wesbtrook that trying now to match salary is silly since they could potentially combine both deals for cap purposes.
   3767. MHS Posted: July 03, 2022 at 01:36 PM (#6085442)
If I’m the nets, unless I’m trading Simmons - Westbrook is an auto buyout. Considering Irving is 10mm cheaper and DARKO has him as a massively better player (+4 to -1) i’m expecting massive return.

I’m also not entertaining sending a very positive asset in Seth Curry to LA. They don’t have the assets to offset the gap between Kyrie and Westbrook and get Curry.

The challenge is if Joe T. Is really mandating Irving gone, then I’m not sure there are many or any other landing spots. With that said you’d much rather buy out of a 35mm player who wants to leave the a 45 million dollar player who seems indiffeeent.

It’s a real cluster.
   3768. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 03, 2022 at 01:53 PM (#6085443)
This is obvious, but a corollary to the whole "Ownership is the biggest competitive advantage in sports" mantra, in a situation like the Nets are in, ownership has to be very clear about what it is they want long term.

Leadership is about laying out clear priorities and then helping them get to those priorities (usually by getting out of the way).

It feels to me like the Nets are not in a place for half measures. Collect the highest possible assets and worry about fit later. If ownership wants to compete then the assets are shorter term, else they can be longer term.
   3769. tshipman Posted: July 03, 2022 at 01:56 PM (#6085444)
I think obviously Brooklyn should trade KD first and see what return that brings since he'll bring back much more


The Nets are up against the hard cap, so trading Irving first (with Harris's $$) could be a way to avoid hard cap issues and allow you to take back other S&T'd players.


The challenge is if Joe T. Is really mandating Irving gone, then I’m not sure there are many or any other landing spots. With that said you’d much rather buy out of a 35mm player who wants to leave the a 45 million dollar player who seems indiffeeent.


I don't understand why you would buy out Kyrie if you could get the Lakers 27 and 29 unprotected picks. Westbrook's money doesn't matter to you if you're the Nets.

I get that people are annoyed that the Lakers are having this fall into their lap, but it's absolutely not in the Nets best interests to buy out Kyrie when you can get positive assets for him.
   3770. JJ1986 Posted: July 03, 2022 at 02:03 PM (#6085446)
The Nets are up against the hard cap, so trading Irving first (with Harris's $$) could be a way to avoid hard cap issues and allow you to take back other S&T'd players.
Edit: Actually, they should probably discuss the whole thing as a multi-team trade given that consideration as well.
   3771. tshipman Posted: July 03, 2022 at 02:12 PM (#6085447)
I think any deal with the Suns is already a multi-team trade by necessity because the Nets don't want Mikal or Ayton.

Side note: any deal with the Suns seems quite likely to blow up as of 7/6, when (almost certainly) the Pacers sign Ayton to a max offer sheet.

The Nets may also want to avoid roping in other FOs to be able to control the media narrative. They are the source for all these Woj leaks.

I am hoping, by the way, that this deal doesn't happen. I don't think I can root for the Lakers with Kyrie.
   3772. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: July 03, 2022 at 02:28 PM (#6085451)
I am hoping, by the way, that this deal doesn't happen. I don't think I can root for the Lakers with Kyrie.
i'm sure you'll manage.
   3773. asinwreck Posted: July 03, 2022 at 03:17 PM (#6085454)
This is not a development in the Nets' disassembly that I anticipated, or that I understand:
Shams Charania @ShamsCharania Free agent guard Goran Dragic has agreed to a deal with the Chicago Bulls, sources tell @TheAthletic @Stadium.
If the Bulls are picking up any more ex-Nets to team with Dragic and Drummond, I would appreciate it if they focus on Curry or Harris for the shooting help.
   3774. DCA Posted: July 03, 2022 at 03:22 PM (#6085456)
Spurs can take Westbrook. I actually think he’d help them sort through their wing collection. If there’s a will there’s a way to give them enough draft capital to make it worthwhile. There may not be a will.
   3775. nick swisher hygiene Posted: July 03, 2022 at 08:51 PM (#6085476)
Have we established that Bron would welcome Kyrie's return?
   3776. spivey Posted: July 03, 2022 at 11:16 PM (#6085480)
I assume if the rumors have gotten leaked that LeBron would be ok with it. They had the conversation when he was on Boston that got talked about, and LeBron is pragmatic, I'm sure he knows this is a talent upgrade and someone he's won a title with.
   3777. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: July 03, 2022 at 11:41 PM (#6085481)
And as this adventure unfolds, it sounds like for the second summer in a row, it’s James himself who is pushing as hard as anyone for a new co-star. Veteran NBA insider Marc Stein — in his latest Substack column — reported as much on Sunday (emphasis mine):

Brooklyn insists that talks are only preliminary at this point, but Chris Haynes’ report Saturday that the Nets and Lakers have discussed a Kyrie Irving trade only fueled what is already a widespread expectation that Irving is destined to end up with the Lakers.

I certainly believe that, too. I know Irving has been in Los Angeles this week, but that’s not the source of my confidence. It stems from repeated rumbles in circulation that LeBron James is rooting hard for Irving’s addition to the roster.

James, I’m told, wants to see Irving in Lakerland more than anyone. What other team, furthermore, has a LeBron-sized personality with the experience to cope with all the chaos that comes with adding Kyrie? James, remember, has often thrived in chaos.


link to post on Lakers SB Nation affiliate
   3778. spivey Posted: July 04, 2022 at 10:43 AM (#6085493)
Kyrie is a very weird guy but he’s still a very good player and from what I can tell, I think he’s a good if misguided person. He’s done a fair bit of activism and helping people. He’s easier to root for than Nunn or Miles Bridges, that’s for damn sure.

We haven’t talked much about the Bridges situation here but I have no idea what is going to happen there. Is he going to play basketball this year?
   3779. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 04, 2022 at 10:45 AM (#6085494)
I wish the NBA were more proactive on the domestic violence front. I would be happy to see Bridges never play another NBA game, tbh.
   3780. spivey Posted: July 04, 2022 at 03:35 PM (#6085511)
Milwaukee: As will often happen with teams that stay around the top of the league for awhile, for obvious reasons, they tend to drift old. Matthews will be 36 in October, and Ingles will be 35 the same month and is coming off the ACL as noted. Holiday just turned 32 and Middleton turns 31 this month. This is not to say that Milwaukee is not a strong contender, but I took note of this when they brought back Matthews and added Ingles, while trading DiVicenzo in Feb.

I agree that getting older at their core is inevitable. Middleton and Holliday are all-star level players who, because of their age and salary, are worth way more to Milwaukee than any other team. So getting their core younger is hard. But you can get your role guys younger. When you're in the tax and out draft picks, the TPMLE is crucial. The last 2 years Milwaukee has used most of it on George Hill last year, and then it sounds like probably all of it on Ingles this year.

Meanwhile Otto Porter, Bruce Brown signed similar deals. They're younger and healthier, fit a similar role on the team. 2 way wings. Each with different strengths and weaknesses. Both went to worse teams, Milwaukee should have been able to offer a similarly large role.

I like Jevon Carter and Wesley Matthews as deeper bench guys, but they really need 1 more 2 way wing who is a bit more multi-dimensional. At this moment in time I think MarJon Beauchamp, who I've warmed up on a lot since the draft, I think is more likely to be that guy than Ingles.
   3781. DCA Posted: July 04, 2022 at 04:12 PM (#6085513)
We haven’t talked much about the Bridges situation here but I have no idea what is going to happen there. Is he going to play basketball this year?

I read that Charlotte was pulling their QO, but I haven't seen confirmation that it has happened yet. If they do that, it probably means he's done. Maybe for good, or maybe just for a long time. He was in line for a max deal, you don't just cut an asset like that loose if someone else is going to swoop in.

I don't think I've ever seen someone blow up their own career (on the cusp of a nearly $200 million payday) and their team's medium-term future as suddenly and completely as Miles just did.
   3782. tshipman Posted: July 04, 2022 at 11:57 PM (#6085543)
Reggie Bullock apparently claims on Instagram that he has been traded to the Sixers. Could this be Bullock/Bertans for Tobias Harris?
   3783. asinwreck Posted: July 05, 2022 at 09:52 AM (#6085561)
The Nets signed TJ Warren.
   3784. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: July 05, 2022 at 10:33 AM (#6085564)
Meanwhile Otto Porter, Bruce Brown signed similar deals.
Porter's wife is from Canada, I don't know how much that matters here. Even with his health issues, that deal is phenomenal for Toronto.

Brown as a wing: In fairness, he really is a hard player to fit into a role. On offense, he plays like a three or maybe a four. On defense, he's small and tends to guard ones. If you want to put a single position label on him, he's probably a two? I do think he'd fit pretty well on Milwaukee - though there's some overlap with him and Carter (another point guard who's not a distributor ... turning Carter into a three point shooting defensive specialist who can move the ball around was the right move.)

I hope Warren really is ready to play again.

Dieng to SA. I know he's been there previously but oh my is he Spursy.
   3785. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: July 05, 2022 at 10:47 AM (#6085570)
Kyrie is a very weird guy but he’s still a very good player and from what I can tell, I think he’s a good if misguided person. He’s done a fair bit of activism and helping people. He’s easier to root for than Nunn or Miles Bridges, that’s for damn sure.

I think this is right on paper but also - I dunno, I've disliked him since he was Duke -- there's plenty of people whose heart is in the right place or who I think want to do the right thing where I'm still like "ugh, this f'n guy".
Kyrie is that f'n guy.

The difference is I would not allow Nunn or Miles in my org at all; while I wouldn't acquire Kyrie either I'm still like "well, maybe Dallas should look at him" - he's not a pariah for me.
   3786. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: July 05, 2022 at 10:51 AM (#6085576)
Volume scoring at reasonable efficiency is typically overrated by most fans and underrated by most analytic fans (IMO).

1000%. I know I can be guilty of it + when I've tinkered with making my own ubermetrics, usage rate is always a component to try to counter that.
   3787. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 05, 2022 at 11:33 AM (#6085580)
Kevin was not always the most popular guy here, but I will miss him. Way too young.
   3788. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 05, 2022 at 11:40 AM (#6085583)
Wait is that our kevin? Oh man.
   3789. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 05, 2022 at 11:43 AM (#6085585)
Yup, our Boston Celtics loving Kevin.
   3790. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 05, 2022 at 11:46 AM (#6085587)
That sucks.
   3791. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: July 05, 2022 at 11:58 AM (#6085591)
That does suck. Only met Kevin irl once, but I liked him.
   3792. Fancy Pants Handle struck out swinging Posted: July 05, 2022 at 12:01 PM (#6085592)
Yeah, just read about it on the discord, and came here to make sure somebody had passed the news along.

And just when the Celtics are about to embark upon a decade long dynasty too...
   3793. tshipman Posted: July 05, 2022 at 12:08 PM (#6085595)
Sorry to hear of Kevin's death. I can only wish the best to his family.
   3794. spivey Posted: July 05, 2022 at 12:30 PM (#6085601)
This is very sad. His obit was nice, and I wish the best for his loved ones.
   3795. tshipman Posted: July 05, 2022 at 01:38 PM (#6085612)
This happened a couple of days ago, but the Thunder waived Isaiah Roby. He's a bad defender, but he's young, and the Thunder are weird, so maybe there's something there. A bunch of teams should be in on him.
   3796. MHS Posted: July 05, 2022 at 01:39 PM (#6085613)
Man, sorry to see Kevin’s passing. He was so active in the thread up until his passing.

Life is too short.
   3797. MHS Posted: July 05, 2022 at 01:40 PM (#6085614)
There is a BBTF discord?
   3798. villageidiom Posted: July 05, 2022 at 01:47 PM (#6085617)
There is a BBTF discord?
There is a BBTF OTP Discord.
   3799. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 05, 2022 at 01:48 PM (#6085618)
I prefer OTP (and other stuff, it has many channels and we are OKish at keeping to the channels) in exile.
   3800. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: July 05, 2022 at 03:21 PM (#6085629)
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