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Friday, April 15, 2022

2022 NBA Playoffs thread

I estimate the NBA thread only had 10-12 years of content so we’re in reruns already.

Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: April 15, 2022 at 11:59 AM | 4354 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: narratives, nba, off-topic, playoffs

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   3801. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: July 05, 2022 at 03:23 PM (#6085630)
I met Kevin, Andy and JC in DC for dinner outside Baltimore about 10-12 years ago, and all three of them were/are very nice guys. Kevin knew a lot about basketball and NBA history as well. RIP, and I am sorry to hear that he has passed.
   3802. MHS Posted: July 05, 2022 at 04:02 PM (#6085632)
Sounds like a pleasant evening rr.

What’s OTP?
   3803. tshipman Posted: July 05, 2022 at 04:08 PM (#6085636)
What’s OTP?


Off-topic: Politics. Since that was the nomenclature used on BBTF, people just kept using it on the discord.
   3804. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: July 05, 2022 at 04:11 PM (#6085637)
Yes, the Discord thing started up after Furtado got rid of OTP here.

And yes, it was a good dinner. I emailed Andy to share condolences.
   3805. Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman Fred Posted: July 05, 2022 at 04:12 PM (#6085638)
OTP Discord includes ongoing politics chat, along with separate channels for discussing all kinds of stuff like culture, food, geography, etc. Even some baseball. There seems to be a perception here that it's all the worst elements of the politics threads distilled -- but it is a pleasant little community (really! Well for the most part anyway) and a fine place to react to news of the day and share what you're watching/listening to/eating/whatever.
   3806. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 05, 2022 at 04:45 PM (#6085649)
In fairness some people dislike the interface.
   3807. aberg Posted: July 05, 2022 at 04:48 PM (#6085651)
Very sad to hear about Kevin. Much love to his friends and family if they come by here. I remember backing him up on the Wilt-Russell arguments in the very early days of this discussion.
   3808. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 05, 2022 at 04:52 PM (#6085653)
I had no idea he worked on vaccines. That's very cool. RIP.
   3809. JJ1986 Posted: July 05, 2022 at 06:00 PM (#6085659)
The Sours just claimed Roby.
   3810. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 05, 2022 at 10:44 PM (#6085694)
Kevin was good people. It happens every day, but it hits particularly hard when it's someone who's only 67.

No indication of the cause of death other than "suddenly", but it wouldn't surprise me if playing basketball while carrying around a fairly sizeable paunch** might've had something to do with it. Of course that's purely unscientific speculation. In any case he was way, way too young.

** At least he had one the last time I saw him about 8-10 years ago
   3811. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: July 06, 2022 at 12:24 AM (#6085704)
Thomas Bryant to LAL
   3812. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: July 06, 2022 at 10:24 AM (#6085722)
Man, I know, it's summer league, but Chet is a fun player.

I feel like the NBA is really at an all time level of fun. Like we've reached the point where the generational transformation to fun players doing fun things is almost complete.

As someone who grew up on 90s basketball, it just wasn't that fun. This NBA is very fun.
   3813. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: July 06, 2022 at 12:25 PM (#6085738)
i love playing physical (violent?), ugly basketball. love watching it too.
the modern version is better.

--

caleb martin stays with mia (3/20+ per shams), as did his brother cody with cha (4/32?)
i don't hate okc picking up roby, but i think i'm lower on him than other people. needs to guard better.
   3814. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: July 06, 2022 at 01:41 PM (#6085755)
I somehow missed the Miles Bridges news. Reports are that Charlotte made him an offer, but I can't find any updates about that in the last week. Can't imagine any other team making an offer that the Hornets would have to match.

Have there been other high-profile DV cases in the NBA under Silver? Nothing comes to mind, seems like there are a few in MLB every year.

The Discord is fun, but very fast-paced (and now blocked for me during work hours).
   3815. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: July 06, 2022 at 02:37 PM (#6085763)
Current Player Next Team Odds at DraftKings:

Durant:
Suns +130
Nets +250
Raptors +380
Heat +1400
Warriors +1400

Irving:
Lakers -250
Nets +300
Sixers +1400
Heat +1800
Mavericks +1800

Odds are based on next regular season minute played, so I guess if one of them sat out during the season until a trade, that wouldn't be a winner for the Nets.
   3816. asinwreck Posted: July 06, 2022 at 02:41 PM (#6085764)
Alex Schiffer @Alex__Schiffer
From the Nets: The Brooklyn Nets have named Igor Kokoškov, Adam Caporn and Trevor Hendry as assistant coaches.

They join Jacque Vaughn, Brian Keefe, Tiago Splitter, Royal Ivey and Ryan Forehan-Kelly on Head Coach Steve Nash’s staff.
The Nets are back up to having two former NBA head coaches assisting Nash, though Kokoškov's tenure with the Suns was a good deal less illustrious than D'Antoni's record before he joined up. Caporn is a former Australian player, so he might be around to help Ben Simmons feel at home. Henry was promoted from video coordinator.

I suppose the biggest news here is that Steve Nash plans to return. The whole point of him coaching the Nets is he was a superstar the superstars liked (particularly Durant, who worked with him in Golden State), so this surprises me.

In other news, the Nets also re-signed Kessler Edwards today.
   3817. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: July 06, 2022 at 03:04 PM (#6085769)
3814/votto on Miles: Charlotte has pulled their QO to him (supposedly), guessing no one makes him an offer until the CJS proceeds further.
Other DV cases - none this high profile or with this kind of graphic, public evidence that come to mind. Richaun Holmes, Jaxson Hayes, and Rajon Rondo all have accusations against them of one kind or another that I remember from the last year or so...
   3818. tshipman Posted: July 06, 2022 at 03:26 PM (#6085771)
Current Player Next Team Odds at DraftKings:

Durant:
Suns +130
Nets +300


This seems wild to me. There is no way that the Suns have a better offer than Miami, is there? I also think the last time a guy made a formal trade request that wasn't honored was Kobe in like 2006. There's no way that Durant doesn't get traded.
   3819. tshipman Posted: July 06, 2022 at 03:44 PM (#6085773)
Dunc'd On did a roleplay trade scenario for Durant and this is what they came up with:

Eliminated offers:
New Orleans: not willing to put in BI
Warriors: Not willing to offer all the young guys


Best offers:
Boston: Jaylen Brown, Derrick White, two picks, two swaps
Raptors: Pascal Siakam, Four picks, three swaps
Miami: Kyle Lowry, Tyler Herro, Gabe Vincent, 3 picks, 4 swaps
Suns: Mikael Bridges, Cam Johnson, 3 picks, 3 swaps
   3820. DCA Posted: July 06, 2022 at 04:03 PM (#6085778)
That Heat offer is garbage. I don't see the Celtics offering Brown + that much extra. Raptors probably do better offering Trent + Anunoby + Birch instead of Siakam, and I think they are the best positioned team to make a serious run at KD (other than Memphis offering JJJ + but no one thinks that's going to happen apparently).

For the Suns, I think Ayton has to be involved, otherwise they lose too much. I think it's a possibility no matter where Ayton ends up, but it's complicated and different for every Ayton destination.
   3821. spivey Posted: July 06, 2022 at 04:24 PM (#6085780)
This seems wild to me. There is no way that the Suns have a better offer than Miami, is there? I also think the last time a guy made a formal trade request that wasn't honored was Kobe in like 2006. There's no way that Durant doesn't get traded.


This is wild to me. Like, your role play offer, the Suns offer is lightyears better than Miami's. Like DCA, I don't understand people talking about Miami's offers headlined by Herro and picks with a straight face. Herro is so much worse than every other headline player in these deals.

If Miami doesn't put in Bam, Phoenix and everyone else is so much better. And to put in Bam, Simmons has to go somewhere else in the deal too. So I think it's really complicated. If Miami comes out of this with Durant, Butler, and Bam, every person in the Nets front office should find a new line of work.
   3822. tshipman Posted: July 06, 2022 at 04:34 PM (#6085783)
This is wild to me. Like, your role play offer, the Suns offer is lightyears better than Miami's. Like DCA, I don't understand people talking about Miami's offers headlined by Herro and picks with a straight face. Herro is so much worse than every other headline player in these deals.


I think the key for the Miami offer is that it's so much easier to pivot from it into a full rebuild. You can get assets for Lowry and Vincent at the deadline, for example, and then you pocket all the draft capital.

Mikael Bridges is similar, but the Suns have a better chance of avoiding bottoming out. The Heat will be BAD in a few years.

Just FWIW, the Dunc'd on people also evaluated the Heat offer as being better than the Suns'. There's a lot of eye of the beholder stuff, I think.

For the Suns, I think Ayton has to be involved, otherwise they lose too much. I think it's a possibility no matter where Ayton ends up, but it's complicated and different for every Ayton destination.


The Nets value Ayton on a max as a zero, which I agree with. Ayton's upcoming max offer sheet is a huge obstacle for the Suns.
   3823. spivey Posted: July 06, 2022 at 04:39 PM (#6085785)
I'd rather have Jaylen Brown than Bam, BI, Scottie Barnes, and a lot of these other guys getting talked about. My guess is Boston wouldn't do that, anyways, but this whole exercise has been interesting to see how people value a bunch of different players.
   3824. spivey Posted: July 06, 2022 at 04:43 PM (#6085787)
I think the key for the Miami offer is that it's so much easier to pivot from it into a full rebuild. You can get assets for Lowry and Vincent at the deadline, for example, and then you pocket all the draft capital.


I mean, Cam Johnson and Mikal Bridges can get you a shitload more re-flipping them than the Miami guys if you want to go full tank. Like, multiple FRPs more, imo.

I think Brooklyn should try to be bad this year. They may not have to try, but Houston will suck too so you're very likely to get a very solid pick either way, and this could conceivably be their last time to really get a top pick in several years.
   3825. tshipman Posted: July 06, 2022 at 04:47 PM (#6085789)
I'd rather have Jaylen Brown than Bam, BI, Scottie Barnes, and a lot of these other guys getting talked about. My guess is Boston wouldn't do that, anyways, but this whole exercise has been interesting to see how people value a bunch of different players.


See, I think everyone involved is overvaluing Jaylen Brown!

He's been a net negative in the playoffs every year, and in the regular season, the Brown on/Tatum off minutes are not good. Changing out Brown for Durant would be a home run IMO, and take them from a team that's in the mix depending on injury, to a clear favorite to come out of the East.

To be fair, I have always been more down on Brown than consensus. I also think that Boston won't do the deal.
   3826. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: July 06, 2022 at 04:59 PM (#6085792)
Bradley Beal is now (supposedly) the 10th guy ever to get a no trade clause in his contract (obviously, not talking dudes with it for CBA/Bird rights reasons - we're talking negotiated into his deal).
The previous ones: LBJ, KG, Melo, Dirk, Kobe, DWade, Duncan, Stockton, the Admiral.
   3827. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 06, 2022 at 05:02 PM (#6085793)
I guess Beal really is gonna retire a Wizard. I mean, good for him, but wow that seems crazy to me from a team perspective.
   3828. aberg Posted: July 06, 2022 at 05:10 PM (#6085794)
See, I think everyone involved is overvaluing Jaylen Brown!


I think I agree with this. It seems to me that Brown's reputation outpaces what he does on the court. At his current and future price, is he that much more valuable than Bridges or Siakam? It does seem like Barnes is the only guy on any of these lists who even has the chance to become more than a 1x or 2x All-NBA type.
   3829. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: July 06, 2022 at 05:37 PM (#6085800)
Should we throw up a new thread or just assume things will be slow enough and wait until preseason starts? At some point, the post count gets high enough that it might lead to Jim closing the thread.
   3830. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 06, 2022 at 05:42 PM (#6085803)
We can have an offseason thread? Better safe than sorry...
   3831. asinwreck Posted: July 06, 2022 at 05:46 PM (#6085805)
The circus in Brooklyn could lead to some heavy activity before the preseason begins. Might be wise to start a fresh thread.
   3832. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: July 06, 2022 at 05:50 PM (#6085807)
New thread!

In Miami, Oladipo has agree to take less money in yr 1 than had been announced in exchange for a yr 2 p-opt
   3833. spivey Posted: July 06, 2022 at 08:14 PM (#6085826)
With Jaylen Brown, he's averaged 22.5 pts/game in the playoffs, usually being defended by the team's second best guard/wing defender, on a TS% of .583. Can mostly get his shot off against anyone, including unassisted. He can't create for others and if you need him to he'll be a turnover machine. But he rebounds and plays very good defense. I think I like his defense more than Bridges, just because in this league in the playoffs, I'd rather have size to guard big wings than a wing who is better against guards.

He's not making that much more money than Bridges the next couple of years, and he's 2.5 years younger than Siakam, that matters a lot. He's a few days younger than Bridges too, fwiw. Bridges also only scored 9.9 pts/game against Dallas. I'm not sure he's ever going to be a guy who can get you an efficient bucket against a tough defender. If he was, you'd like to see a bit more glimpses of it.
   3834. spivey Posted: July 06, 2022 at 08:19 PM (#6085827)
I guess Beal really is gonna retire a Wizard. I mean, good for him, but wow that seems crazy to me from a team perspective.


I would say that this deal will immediately be one of the worst deals in the NBA. But if he can keep playing like the 20th-30th best player in the NBA, he'll probably still have trade value even though he shouldn't. Just look at Gobert. There's not enough all-stars to go around.
   3835. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: July 06, 2022 at 09:17 PM (#6085838)
Isn't Washington a plausible landing spot for Durant? Hometown obviously, there was a lot of speculation around that a few years back (they even hired Scott Brooks!). Porzingis is at least a dude you can sell as a centerpiece in return -- I'm very out on him personally but it wouldn't surprise me if he had some trade value (I'm not sure he was negative in the DAL/WAS trade). They've got some recent picks who might be in a good age range for the Nets (young enough to be part of a salvage core, but not years away) including Johnny Davis who is probably closer to NBA ready than most recent firsts.

There's one big issue which is that they have traded a pick with some pretty lengthy protections making it harder for them to trade more firsts, but that's solvable, and if you're committing to Beal, this feels like you should definitely take that swing as absent acquiring a Durant-caliber player you really have no plausible path to contention. Not sure if there's a relationship there but I could see Durant/Beal fitting pretty well on the court -- obviously would open things up for Beal a lot.

Haven't seen anyone mention this but it feels like a pretty reasonable option.
   3836. Thok Posted: July 07, 2022 at 07:35 AM (#6085867)
I also think the last time a guy made a formal trade request that wasn't honored was Kobe in like 2006. There's no way that Durant doesn't get traded.

It's not clear that Durant has that much leverage if the Nets decide not to trade him and just roll with the Durant/Irving/Simmons trio. Given how much Durant cares about his legacy, he's not going to retire, or sit out some games, or do a Vince Carter-like fake slump.
   3837. jmurph Posted: July 07, 2022 at 08:20 AM (#6085869)
Miami: Kyle Lowry, Tyler Herro, Gabe Vincent, 3 picks, 4 swaps

Kyle Lowry is owed $58 million guaranteed over the next two years and is 36. That's negative value. Tyler Herro is extension eligible and seems to think he's a max level player. I just can't imagine the Nets accepting either of those guys back (unless their goal is to chase a fringe playoff spot for a couple years?).
   3838. jmurph Posted: July 07, 2022 at 08:24 AM (#6085870)
The cold-blooded Heat move would be to build it around Butler, who is owed $184 million over the next 4 years and consistently struggles to stay healthy. Helps Brooklyn stay competitive (albeit with all of that contract's downside) and Miami gets an upgrade. I mean this obviously won't happen, just a thought.
   3839. PJ Martinez Posted: July 07, 2022 at 09:04 AM (#6085873)
Isn't Washington a plausible landing spot for Durant?
All indications are that the Nets want a young potential All-Star in addition to draft picks. The Wizards do not have such a player.

This is probably wrong, but I've come around to the idea that Durant will be on the Nets when the season starts.
   3840. Fancy Pants Handle struck out swinging Posted: July 07, 2022 at 10:09 AM (#6085879)
The cold-blooded Heat move would be to build it around Butler, who is owed $184 million over the next 4 years and consistently struggles to stay healthy. Helps Brooklyn stay competitive (albeit with all of that contract's downside) and Miami gets an upgrade. I mean this obviously won't happen, just a thought.

Is Durant still going to want to go to Miami, if Butler is going the other way? I assume a big part Miami is on the list of 2, is to team up with him.
   3841. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: July 07, 2022 at 10:30 AM (#6085880)
All indications are that the Nets want a young potential All-Star in addition to draft picks. The Wizards do not have such a player.


Porzingis is somehow still only 26 and has been an All-Star. For all his flaws, he averages 20 and 8 on solid efficiency.

Rui Hachimura is 24 and shot 45 percent from 3 last year. Deni Avdija is 21 and was the #9 pick last year. Daniel Gafford shoots 70 percent from two and blocks 4 shots per 100 possessions (and is signed long term with a pretty reasonable contract). Johnny Davis is 20 and was Big Ten player of the year last year.

To be clear, this is cherry-picking stats and my personal opinion is these guys are, like, not very good. But it's not too hard to imagine a world where the Nets are excited by some combination of assets.
   3842. Harlond Posted: July 07, 2022 at 11:51 AM (#6085891)
It’s only summer league. But after dominating his first game, Chet Holmgren was abused by undrafted free agent Kenneth Lofton Jr in his 2nd game. It helps that Lofton outweighs Holmgren by 70 or so pounds (this is where that 16 percent body fat comes in handy), enabling Lofton to push Holmgren wherever he wanted Holmgren to go. Lofton also nailed a couple 3Pt over Holmgren. I think that’s as many 3PA as Lofton had in his entire college career. Thunder still won, so game to Holmgren.

Anyway, I really want to see Lofton make it in the NBA. A fun player.
   3843. Moeball Posted: July 07, 2022 at 12:35 PM (#6085893)
I can't believe I'm hearing all this talk about the Warriors getting involved. Frankly, I don't see why either GS or Durant would want to go down that road again. Some divorcees do get remarried, but I've never understood why. That's just a recipe for disaster.
   3844. asinwreck Posted: July 07, 2022 at 01:03 PM (#6085896)
If, somehow, Durant returned to Golden State, an investigation into whether Adam Silver is consulting with Vince McMahon on storylines would be warranted.
   3845. DCA Posted: July 07, 2022 at 02:08 PM (#6085900)
I've been hearing Warriors as a possibility but unlikely.

I don't think GSW is going to empty the cabinet for Durant (he only cost money last time he went there) but if the price is Wiggins + Wiseman + 2 firsts, yeah I think that's worth it, and probably decently competitive vs other trade suitors.

I think GSW are probably the plurality favorite to repeat, but there's a lot of parity at the top these days and the expected future championships with this core is probably 0.5 or less. Durant would make them favorites vs the field just like the old days.
   3846. asinwreck Posted: July 07, 2022 at 06:34 PM (#6085916)
My best wishes to Baynes on his comeback attempt.
Aron Baynes, who suffered a spinal cord injury after a freak fall while playing for the Australian national team in the Tokyo Olympics last summer, has resumed his career and will be working out for NBA teams Friday in Las Vegas.

Baynes was in hospitals in Tokyo and Brisbane for nearly two months last summer as he learned to walk again. He returned to playing basketball only in January after grueling weeks regaining his strength through daily physical therapy and is now ready to show teams his progress.
   3847. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: July 07, 2022 at 07:41 PM (#6085920)
Boucher only got 3/35? Surprising to me.
   3848. tshipman Posted: July 07, 2022 at 11:27 PM (#6085958)
Whole lotta fun highlights from the Summer League matchup between Jabari and Paolo.
   3849. . . . . . . Posted: July 08, 2022 at 10:20 AM (#6085974)
It’s only summer league. But after dominating his first game, Chet Holmgren was abused by undrafted free agent Kenneth Lofton Jr in his 2nd game. It helps that Lofton outweighs Holmgren by 70 or so pounds (this is where that 16 percent body fat comes in handy), enabling Lofton to push Holmgren wherever he wanted Holmgren to go. Lofton also nailed a couple 3Pt over Holmgren. I think that’s as many 3PA as Lofton had in his entire college career. Thunder still won, so game to Holmgren.


Lofton is an excellent offensive player, in the same sense that DeJuan Blair was. All of the guys remaining in the league who play like that will be trouble for Chet. I think that if Lofton makes it, that'll be 3.
   3850. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: July 08, 2022 at 01:13 PM (#6085991)
Lofton: I'm rooting for him (he's signed a 2 way, he's likely in the league this year) but - if we're looking at a single game - the +/- for his minutes (converse for Chet) weren't good and he wasn't hyperefficient or anything. Whatever - it was a good game and I'm curious as to how he'll do in Vegas.
---
Boucher 3/35: that's around the projections I saw (and was frontloaded). I know a lot of people landed an "on overpay but it's ok" but I think it's a steal. For years the Raps doubted his ability to straight up defend fours but he now guards threes and often as fives and holds up well and them. The lack of passing is a problem and I wish he'd become a consistent 35% guy from the perimeter but his teams always play better when he's on the floor for a reason - plus and versatile defender, efficient roll man, credible from the outside. Wish he was a Hawk.
---
Summer league: I'm getting thrown by Washington not playing for Washington, Houstan not on the Rockets, Orlando Robinson not a Magic, etc...
---
I watched most of the HOU/ORL first half - nice to see decisiveness from Paolo, who looked great.
   3851. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: July 08, 2022 at 04:29 PM (#6086001)
Kyle Neubeck @KyleNeubeck
While a deal still has to be fully agreed to and signed, a $15 million James Harden paycut and 1+1 deal would (and has) helped the Sixers, giving Harden a chance to rediscover his MVP form without needing to take on long-term risk phillyvoice.com/james-harden-1…
   3852. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: July 08, 2022 at 05:48 PM (#6086012)
hawks, seeking to improve their frontcourt defense, signed frank kaminsky for the min.
   3853. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: July 08, 2022 at 05:49 PM (#6086013)
Boucher only got 3/35? Surprising to me.
i'm surprised that boucher didn't try to find a starting spot somewhere else, but the contract itself? 3/35 is a pretty strong deal for a 30 year old bench forward.
   3854. asinwreck Posted: July 08, 2022 at 06:59 PM (#6086020)
Just watched the Chicago-Dallas summer league game, and Bryant's not wrong. Simonović not only looks bigger, he was able to go to the rim with ease (including a dunk to tie the game at 90 at the end of regulation) and battle for offense rebounds (including one that led to his game-winning FT with 0.7 left in overtime). I would not be surprised to see Tony Bradley Jr. released so Simonović can be the third-string center.

My other takeaway from this game is Dalen Terry makes some nice passes and some reckless ones (as is evident in his final line of 6 assists and 6 turnovers).
asinwreck Posted: July 02, 2022 at 06:05 PM (#6085393)

[Bulls Summer League Coach John] Bryant was quick to heap praise on second-year big man Marko Simonović for the work he’s done on his body this offseason. And it’s true. Even from across the practice court, Simonović’s gains are noticeable compared to his more wiry frame last season.

“He's bigger than me, and I pride myself on being a big really fit guy. His shoulders look like a grown man,” Bryant said of Simonović. “He's obviously been working, he's obviously been doing something — he's been eating at least. But he looks great.”

   3855. Oriole Tragic Posted: July 09, 2022 at 12:05 AM (#6086058)
Knicks Summer Leaguers looked pretty decent against a GSW squad that included Moody and Kuminga. Feels like I should be at least mildly impressed by that, but I get that actually winning a Summer League isn't necessarily the assignment for an org that just won the Finals, so I'm not sure what my takeaway should be.

For GSW, Santos' passing was intriguing, but it didn't seem like he had much of a motor. I was surprised by Mac's OK shooting numbers because he reminded me of John Stockton's kid* in that he didn't look like he really belonged out there and he always seemed to have the ball but didn't create much. I watched the whole game and I can't see how he got 17 points.

*To be clear, I think McClung is better (certainly more athletic) than Stockton's kid was, but I don't see McClung sticking in the NBA at all.
   3856. mike f Posted: July 09, 2022 at 04:43 PM (#6086098)
Grimes looked way better than everyone else in the minutes I watched.
   3857. Oriole Tragic Posted: July 09, 2022 at 10:19 PM (#6086127)
I'm still not buying on Chet. He doesn't look awesome against HOU Summer Leaguers. Seems to be an auto-TO when he gets doubled, and he's getting beat as often as not on contested boards. Missed a dunk right at the basket; got posterized by Hudgins; not doing a lot on offense.

I think he's going to get mauled in the NBA.
   3858. Oriole Tragic Posted: July 09, 2022 at 10:44 PM (#6086129)
Jalen Williams looks pretty good. Just got a block on JSJr.

Chet couldn't finish a dunk over Josh Christopher, just now.
   3859. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: July 10, 2022 at 01:37 PM (#6086141)
I'm on a plane to Vegas for summer league right now. Any tips and tricks to maximize the experience?
   3860. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: July 10, 2022 at 01:53 PM (#6086142)
I'm on a plane to Vegas for summer league right now. Any tips and tricks to maximize the experience?
do not ask anyone "how's the weather up there?"

it will always be raining.
   3861. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: July 11, 2022 at 10:49 AM (#6086212)
I'm going to guess that the highlights showed Kuminga doing cool things, but what they don't show is how awful his decision making was in yesterday's summer league game. He also went 7-18 from the line. Anyway, there's your scouting report.

Also Wiseman committed 7 fouls in 20 minutes. Other than that he looked pretty good especially for a guy who's been out so long.

Mac McClung should change his name to like Santino Ferrante and get an Italian passport.

Blake Wesley looked pretty good for the Spurs. Primo's got a long way to go still. Sochan didn't play, though we ran into him walking around aimlessly later (side note, most of the just drafted players aren't 21 right? I'm assuming there are private parties but they can't like enjoy Vegas in public, with such well known birthdates especially)

The Suns-Wizards game was pretty bad. Johnny Davis was OK but athleticism didn't look great against this level of competition. No one really looked like an NBA player frankly.

The thing that really stands out about summer league is that they are really bad at passing compared to NBA players. Bad decisions, bad execution. You could count on one hand the number of times a game a pass actually hits a shooter in their shooting pocket.

Not sure how much of that is lack of ability versus lack of practice or system.
   3862. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: July 11, 2022 at 11:46 PM (#6086332)
Yaron Weitzman @YaronWeitzman
Being a Summer League ref seems like one of the worst jobs in the world
Yaron Weitzman @YaronWeitzman
If you get a T while watching a Summer League game from the sideline does that count for your season total asking for Grant Williams
   3863. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: July 12, 2022 at 04:24 AM (#6086337)
Summer league day 2, watched Rockets-Spurs and Magic-Thunder.

Jabari played great on both sides of the ball. Good on switches (clean stripped Ky Bowman on an island after a switch one time), good on the boards, smart controlled play, game slowed down for him.

Tari Eason had some nice flashes. Not totally sure where to be on the court but you can see the upside. Josh Christopher still kind of an athletic hot mess, really raw out there.

Wesley had another nice game for the Spurs, I think he's going to stick. Primo sat out the b2b. Nobody else who looks destined for the Association.

Chet played a rookie game. Hit a couple shots but wasn't a huge factor, just looked like a rookie. Giddey was ridiculous -- against a backdrop of Summer League caliber passing, he slung lasers cross-court (when others trying this inevitably resulted in turnovers), hit people in stride and in the pocket. Shot was off but the passing was really really good.

Jaylin Williams had a couple nice moments. You could see the potential to be a modern NBA big, some nice passing and BBIQ if the shot can get anywhere, which it probably can't.

Banchero sat out. Not much of note from the Magic.
   3864. asinwreck Posted: July 12, 2022 at 07:16 AM (#6086338)
Yaron Weitzman @YaronWeitzman
Being a Summer League ref seems like one of the worst jobs in the world

I watched the second quarter of the Blazers-Knicks game where Richard Jefferson was one of the refs. His impatience during the various reviews was the most entertaining part of some truly messy basketball.
   3865. Fourth True Outcome Posted: July 12, 2022 at 03:21 PM (#6086375)
I'm not sure exactly what I mean by this, but I have long thought that Richard Jefferson was one of the most ref-looking NBA players, so him trying summer league reffing both fit perfectly and was disorienting in the "why is the universe reflecting the inside of my head" sort of way. I think I've always found him inoffensively slightly handsome without any real distinguishing characteristics? Like he's got a computer-generated NBA 2K player vibe, without any uncanny valley vibes to make it weird.
   3866. Hombre Brotani Posted: July 12, 2022 at 04:37 PM (#6086389)
I'm still not buying on Chet. He doesn't look awesome against HOU Summer Leaguers.
I'm not a fan, either, but it's way too early to make a real assessment on the guy. I want to see his game after he gains another, I dunno, a ton of weight? 40 pounds over the length of his rookie contract?
   3867. asinwreck Posted: July 12, 2022 at 05:52 PM (#6086398)
Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn
After previously shutting down inquiries on moving All-Star guard Donovan Mitchell, rival teams say the Utah Jazz are showing a willingness to listen on possible trade scenarios, sources tell ESPN.
   3868. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 12, 2022 at 06:39 PM (#6086403)
Would be dumb not to, especially while the Knicks have a million picks to trade.
   3869. tshipman Posted: July 12, 2022 at 06:58 PM (#6086407)
I'm not sure exactly what I mean by this, but I have long thought that Richard Jefferson was one of the most ref-looking NBA players, so him trying summer league reffing both fit perfectly and was disorienting in the "why is the universe reflecting the inside of my head" sort of way. I think I've always found him inoffensively slightly handsome without any real distinguishing characteristics? Like he's got a computer-generated NBA 2K player vibe, without any uncanny valley vibes to make it weird.


He weirdly does look a LOT like an NBA ref.

Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn
After previously shutting down inquiries on moving All-Star guard Donovan Mitchell, rival teams say the Utah Jazz are showing a willingness to listen on possible trade scenarios, sources tell ESPN.


I agree, but why pretend that they weren't interested two weeks ago? Weird vibe.
   3870. DCA Posted: July 12, 2022 at 07:02 PM (#6086408)
Would be dumb not to, especially while the Knicks have a million picks to trade.

Trading a million picks to add two 6'1" starting guards on max/near-max salaries is a very Knicks thing to do.
   3871. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 12, 2022 at 07:12 PM (#6086411)
I agree, but why pretend that they weren't interested two weeks ago? Weird vibe.


Andy Larsen and I think a few other local Jazz reporters have been saying this was already the case back then, and the Jazz GM said on the record just a couple days ago that they were basically willing to listen to offers.

@andyblarsen
That the report came out is again maybe more interesting than the report itself. 3 possibilities I see:

1) a Don deal is getting close and Woj had to change tune to reflect reality
2) Jazz FO wants to create bidding war
3) Don's team using CAA to create reason to ask out


I think Andy is right about the actual importance of the Woj tweet.
   3872. tshipman Posted: July 12, 2022 at 07:55 PM (#6086419)
3 possibilities I see:

1) a Don deal is getting close and Woj had to change tune to reflect reality


This one seems right to me. Woj does this #### all the time. Remember when Banchero was "building momentum" after previously it was a lock that Jabari was #1?
   3873. Fancy Pants Handle struck out swinging Posted: July 13, 2022 at 04:40 AM (#6086473)
I agree, but why pretend that they weren't interested two weeks ago? Weird vibe.

I think that is just basic negotiating strategy. You have more leverage if teams think there is a real chance that you will just keep a guy, if they don't meet your valuation. You always want to try and deal from a position of strength.
   3874. Eddo Posted: July 13, 2022 at 09:43 AM (#6086482)
I think I've always found him inoffensively slightly handsome without any real distinguishing characteristics? Like he's got a computer-generated NBA 2K player vibe, without any uncanny valley vibes to make it weird.

Oh wow, 100% agree! So if Jerry West is "The Logo", should Jefferson be "The Avatar"?
   3875. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: July 13, 2022 at 11:35 AM (#6086494)
Would be dumb not to, especially while the Knicks have a million picks to trade.

Seems like a perfect storm for the Jazz to get a massive haul from the Knicks. Between Donovan being a perennial All-Star from the NYC area, the Knicks not having been notably good in forever, Gobert having set the market, and all those picks now available for trade, I find it hard to believe the Knicks won't offer just about anything they can to get this done.

Let them keep Barrett, who's about to get very expensive and looks like more of a supporting player than a star, and then demand every other asset that can be moved. What's the most 1st rounders to ever be traded in a single deal? I'm thinking something like Quickley, Toppin, salary filler, and 6-7 first rounders (plus 3 swaps) is a realistic possibility here.
   3876. asinwreck Posted: July 13, 2022 at 11:40 AM (#6086496)
If the Jazz can somehow be the conduit allowing the Timberwolves to maximize resources into big men and the Knicks to maximize resources into small guards, that would be outstanding.
   3877. jmurph Posted: July 13, 2022 at 11:52 AM (#6086499)
Trading a million picks to add two 6'1" starting guards on max/near-max salaries is a very Knicks thing to do.

I can't tell how bad Brunson is on defense, but if he's anything less than great it's pretty difficult to imagine putting out a functional NBA defense with those two guys playing important minutes.
   3878. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 13, 2022 at 11:56 AM (#6086500)
It will be an amazing dual to the Wovles if they have two max centers and the Knicks have two max small guards. Left is right! Up is down!
   3879. billyshears Posted: July 13, 2022 at 01:01 PM (#6086512)
As a short guard who doesn't shoot 3s very well, Mitchell is a terrible fit for the Knicks. But he's also the best player they have had a legitimate chance to acquire in forever. I'm leaning towards the view that they should make a run at him and figure the fit out later, but it's a close call.
   3880. Fancy Pants Handle struck out swinging Posted: July 13, 2022 at 01:38 PM (#6086518)
Carmello redux.
   3881. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 13, 2022 at 03:54 PM (#6086538)
As a short guard who doesn't shoot 3s very well, Mitchell is a terrible fit for the Knicks.


?
   3882. spivey Posted: July 13, 2022 at 04:08 PM (#6086541)
If you can get Mitchell without giving up the farm, I think you do it. Fit with Brunson isn't too important, I think Brunson can be moved on that contract.

I think Mitchell is like the 15th-20th best player in the NBA. Those guys are worth a large draft haul but I don't think they should offer all the picks and all the swaps.
   3883. billyshears Posted: July 13, 2022 at 04:48 PM (#6086549)
?


Brunson is a also short guard who is just a fair 3-pt shooter. When Brunson and Mitchell are playing at the same time, the Knicks would get killed on defense. On offence, Barrett and Randle are also just fair (or worse) 3-pt shooters, and Robinson is a non-shooter. I think people tend to overstate the difference in spacing created by a 38% 3-pt shooter over that of a 34% 3-pt shooters (for example), but the paint is going to be awfully crowded with those 5 guys on the court.

On the whole though, I'm basically on the same page as #3882.
   3884. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 13, 2022 at 05:26 PM (#6086558)
Brunson is a also short guard who is just a fair 3-pt shooter. When Brunson and Mitchell are playing at the same time, the Knicks would get killed on defense. On offence, Barrett and Randle are also just fair (or worse) 3-pt shooters, and Robinson is a non-shooter. I think people tend to overstate the difference in spacing created by a 38% 3-pt shooter over that of a 34% 3-pt shooters (for example), but the paint is going to be awfully crowded with those 5 guys on the court.


Donovan is a very good shooter, and has been one of the best in the league on catch and shoot threes (though IIRC last season wasn't as good there, but it seems likely to me just a random dip). He takes a lot of off the bounce deep threes, which is why he was able to get up almost 10 a game. He would help the Knicks' spacing a ton.

The defensive fit is awful and I think it would be a classic Knicks blunder to spend all their picks on Donovan.

And speaking of defense, I see Knicks fans talk about not wanting to include RJ, which as a Jazz fan I don't really want him unless it's to flip him for even better assets. Is he actually any good on defense? He does not get any steals or blocks and it's hard for me to think someone can be that size, that athletic, and be a good defender without it showing up in the box score at all.
   3885. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: July 13, 2022 at 06:03 PM (#6086566)
I am not a huge fan of Mitchell's game, but I pretty much agree with 3882. Also, Brunson is a pretty good player and is about to turn 26, but I didn't really get why New York seemed to be so focused on him.
   3886. billyshears Posted: July 13, 2022 at 06:03 PM (#6086567)
Is he actually any good on defense? He does not get any steals or blocks and it's hard for me to think someone can be that size, that athletic, and be a good defender without it showing up in the box score at all.


RJ is ok on defense. He's not overly athletic and doesn't have especially quick hands, so he doesn't get many steals or blocks. But he's big and physical and he tries hard. He generally holds his own while enthusiastically taking on difficult defensive assignments, so I consider him a slight positive defensively.
   3887. PJ Martinez Posted: July 13, 2022 at 08:14 PM (#6086586)
Did anyone see the four-teamer Bobby Marks suggested on ESPN? Brooklyn gets Mitchell, Bridges, and Turner; Phoenix gets Durant; Indiana gets Ayton; Utah gets Simmons, Cam Thomas, four Phoenix first-rounders, three Phoenix pick swaps, and one Cleveland first-rounder owned by Indiana?

Maybe Brooklyn pushes to get one or two of those picks (and maybe Phoenix tries to keep one or two of them), but I kind of like it for everybody? (I'm not a big Ayton fan on the contract he's going to get but Indiana seems interested, so.)
   3888. spivey Posted: July 13, 2022 at 08:52 PM (#6086594)
Deal feels too good for Brooklyn and Utah.

Why is Indiana doing this deal? Turner has positive value and can just offer sheet Ayton. They're giving up the equivalent of 2 FRPs (and Turner may? be worth more than just 1 FRP) just to not have Ayton matched? I dunno, that'd be really iffy if you ask me, but maybe.

Also think Phoenix is giving up too much. I know it's Durant, but they're really setting up a scenario where Booker will want to leave in 3 years with a deal like that, imo.
   3889. tshipman Posted: July 13, 2022 at 08:53 PM (#6086596)
Did anyone see the four-teamer Bobby Marks suggested on ESPN? Brooklyn gets Mitchell, Bridges, and Turner; Phoenix gets Durant; Indiana gets Ayton; Utah gets Simmons, Cam Thomas, four Phoenix first-rounders, three Phoenix pick swaps, and one Cleveland first-rounder owned by Indiana?


Indiana gives up Turner and a first in order to get a guy they can just sign to an offer sheet? I know that the Pacers have some weird hold up about offer sheets, but that seems literally insane.

Edit: coke
   3890. tshipman Posted: July 13, 2022 at 08:55 PM (#6086597)
I can't tell how bad Brunson is on defense, but if he's anything less than great it's pretty difficult to imagine putting out a functional NBA defense with those two guys playing important minutes.


As bad as that backcourt would be, I would still somehow hate the Minnesota front court situation more.
   3891. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: July 13, 2022 at 11:16 PM (#6086631)
Kyle Neubeck @KyleNeubeck
The Sixers calling a timeout with 3 seconds left up 4 in an abysmal Summer League game made me question my sanity
phillyvoice.com/summer-league-…
Rich Hoffman @rich_hofmann
This summer league game is a crime against humanity.



The Good
[...]
• The game ended. And the Sixers won! You won't be able to tell that from this recap if I don't make sure to write that.

The Bad
[a 20,000 word dissertation on *that*]

The Ugly

• I have to tell you, a game in the second week of Summer League with none of Paul Reed, Jaden Springer and Isaiah Joe is pretty tough to stay focused for. In a completely unrelated note, we won't be doing Summer League observations for the two games Philly has left in Vegas this weekend, and will instead wrap things up early next week. There are only so many things to say about a Summer League team that doesn't have a first-round pick from this year.

   3892. PJ Martinez Posted: July 14, 2022 at 12:05 AM (#6086640)
Those are fair points re: Indiana in 3888 and 3889, though I suspect that this board, generally speaking, is higher on Turner and lower on Ayton than the NBA consensus. And signing Ayton to an offer sheet still carries some risk that you don't get him, right? I can't pretend to have a perfect read on that situation, or to know what Indiana's sense of it is, but there's a lot of smoke already around an Ayton-Turner sign-and trade, and it seems to me that the question of who gives which picks to whom is close enough to make the framework viable (though of course it's not hard to imagine such a deal falling apart because of exactly that sort of disagreement).

Edit: Shams is now saying that the Jazz and Knicks "have started discussions on a Donovan Mitchell trade" and that "New York has Utah’s focus currently, among interested teams," FWIW.
   3893. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: July 14, 2022 at 12:59 AM (#6086647)
John Hollinger
@johnhollinger
·
2m
Historically, cats that are this far out of the bag rarely get re-sacked.
Quote Tweet
Tony Jones
@Tjonesonthenba
· 1h
The Jazz and Knicks have started talks in a deal that would bring Donovan Mitchell to New York, League Sources tell myself and @ShamsCharania - https://theathletic.com/3422434/2022/07/13/donovan-mitchell-knicks-jazz/
   3894. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: July 14, 2022 at 03:25 AM (#6086650)
Hollinger trying to get re-hired by the Grizzlies:

John Hollinger
@johnhollinger
·
2h
Re: Mitchell; the only thing really matters, of course, is that Mike Conley doesn't spend this season on a 20-win team playing in unis from the JC Penney discount rack.
   3895. jmurph Posted: July 14, 2022 at 08:32 AM (#6086654)
though I suspect that this board, generally speaking, is higher on Turner

Given that he's been available for like 5 years with no takers, I suspect this is correct!
   3896. spivey Posted: July 14, 2022 at 09:20 AM (#6086656)
Given that he's been available for like 5 years with no takers, I suspect this is correct!


Do we know this? It's been hard for me to get a read on how 'on the block' a lot of their guys were. Given the coach churn, including good coaches, part of me wonders if they truly felt that core was a good one capable of success in the playoffs, before last year.
   3897. sardonic Posted: July 14, 2022 at 09:50 AM (#6086658)
I mean if your only options are to get Brunson and then later pay a huge premium to get Mitchell or get Brunson and NOT get Mitchell, then yeah I guess go get Mitchell. But this current situation only highlights how dumb their initial plan to get Brunson was. I can already see them spending one or two of their remaining firsts to get off Brunson next offseason after they've tanked his value and dragged their way through a 35-40 win season and lost in the play in tournament. Does Brunson even still want to go now that if he doesn't actually get to be the lead ballhandler?

   3898. jmurph Posted: July 14, 2022 at 10:07 AM (#6086661)
I mean if your only options are to get Brunson and then later pay a huge premium to get Mitchell or get Brunson and NOT get Mitchell, then yeah I guess go get Mitchell. But this current situation only highlights how dumb their initial plan to get Brunson was. I can already see them spending one or two of their remaining firsts to get off Brunson next offseason after they've tanked his value and dragged their way through a 35-40 win season and lost in the play in tournament. Does Brunson even still want to go now that if he doesn't actually get to be the lead ballhandler?

Given the personal connections involved with Brunson, I don't see how they can just turn around and dump him a year later.
   3899. asinwreck Posted: July 14, 2022 at 10:11 AM (#6086663)
I can already see them spending one or two of their remaining firsts to get off Brunson next offseason after they've tanked his value and dragged their way through a 35-40 win season and lost in the play in tournament.
Kemba Walker says hi.
   3900. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 14, 2022 at 11:18 AM (#6086675)
Poor Knicks fans. Nobody deserves that ownership situation.
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