Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Friday, April 15, 2022

2022 NBA Playoffs thread

I estimate the NBA thread only had 10-12 years of content so we’re in reruns already.

Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: April 15, 2022 at 11:59 AM | 4354 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: narratives, nba, off-topic, playoffs

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 40 of 44 pages ‹ First  < 38 39 40 41 42 >  Last ›
   3901. sardonic Posted: July 14, 2022 at 11:23 AM (#6086676)
Given the personal connections involved with Brunson, I don't see how they can just turn around and dump him a year later.


I'm sure a year of playing second banana to Donovan Mitchell and missing the playoffs altogether will change Brunson's mind. This guy just forced his way out of Dallas because he didn't want to play second banana to Luka on a conference finalist.
   3902. jmurph Posted: July 14, 2022 at 11:27 AM (#6086677)
This guy just forced his way out of Dallas because he didn't want to play second banana to Luka on a conference finalist.

I take your overall point but I think that's kind of an unfair description of what happened. He left as a free agent to go to a place where he has major personal connections and got seriously paid in the process, after turning down less money from the Mavs.
   3903. jmurph Posted: July 14, 2022 at 11:30 AM (#6086678)
Poor Knicks fans. Nobody deserves that ownership situation.

I mean it's probably worth noting that adding Mitchell and Brunson would be a major talent increase for the Knicks. I didn't understand all the Brunson moves and I imagine the Mitchell trade might be a wild overpay, but it's not like they were on a path to anything interesting previously.

(To be clear, I don't think these moves make sense, and I don't think they'll be a good fit.)
   3904. sardonic Posted: July 14, 2022 at 11:39 AM (#6086679)
I mean it's probably worth noting that adding Mitchell and Brunson would be a major talent increase for the Knicks.


Yeah fair enough -- I can see them getting into the low 40s wins and making the play in picture after finishing with 37 wins and finishing 11th.
   3905. . . . . . . Posted: July 14, 2022 at 11:47 AM (#6086681)
Poor Knicks fans. Nobody deserves that ownership situation.


FWIW, I've done some work for MSG/Dolans years ago, and they are extremely savvy and sophisticated owners. Yes, even him.
The Knicks are run as a business, to maximize revenue. They are not run uneconomically to win championships.
Winning is far less important to long term revenue as not being terrible. So they will continue to be run to win 45 games.
   3906. spivey Posted: July 14, 2022 at 11:51 AM (#6086682)
Brunson and Mitchell have both shown they can be key initiators of good playoff offense. That's pretty valuable.

What this team could really use is more 3&D help, like a Reggie Bullock type.
   3907. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: July 14, 2022 at 12:00 PM (#6086683)
Given that [Myles Turner]'s been available for like 5 years with no takers, I suspect this is correct!

I think this tends to happen with players who have significant medical red flags and are injury prone. For example, Brogdon and Kawhi were traded for less than we expected, particularly compared to other similarly-talented players on the market in recent years. Here are a few possible reasons:

(1) We don't have access to the medicals or any inside information on that front, so we have a tendency to downplay injury concerns as more random and unknowable than front offices.

(2) We think first about upside and championship/contender potential, whereas GMs and owners are naturally more risk-averse. A GM's worst nightmare is taking a giant swing on a guy who's rarely healthy enough to play and taking the fall for a disastrous trade.

(3) Relatedly, we are likely somewhat conditioned by fantasy sports to underappreciate the negative effect of injury issues. If a player on a fantasy team is hurt, we can just replace him with someone on the bench or a free agent and not lose all that much while he's gone. An actual team suffers far more in terms of the required on-court adjustments, rotation changes, and strain on the rest of the roster when key players are out.
   3908. PJ Martinez Posted: July 14, 2022 at 12:02 PM (#6086684)
So they will continue to be run to win 45 games.
If that's the goal, they're doing a pretty terrible job of it. They've had a winning record all of twice in the past decade.
   3909. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: July 14, 2022 at 02:00 PM (#6086697)
Even if this weren't Bucher, I wouldn't buy it:

KD UPDATE: Ric Bucher is reporting that Steph Curry has reached out to KD several times about a reunion: “A league source says Curry has reached out several times to Durant, eager to improve his chances of winning a fifth championship and surpassing LeBron James
   3910. DCA Posted: July 14, 2022 at 02:32 PM (#6086702)
The issue with KD to the Warriors is that they have to send out Wiggins, and not to the Nets (as long as Simmons is there). Theoretically possible to send out Klay or Dray, but let's be honest, that's not going to happen.

So a third team is needed, I think Charlotte is the best candidate - the Bridges situation has created a crisis and opportunity for them.

To GSW: Durant, Kai Jones
To CHA: Wiggins
To BKN: Gita Hayworth, Wiseman, 2 GSW firsts, 2 CHA firsts, various swaps

GSW can trade 2 firsts if they remove the protection on the 2024 first going to Memphis, or 3 firsts if they bump that pick up to 2023 unprotected. Two firsts plus their 4th string center is a reasonable price to replace Bridges with an all-star who fits the LaMelo timeline, and dump the GH contract in the process. Nets get their 4 picks, plus Wiseman's upside.
   3911. asinwreck Posted: July 14, 2022 at 03:00 PM (#6086705)
Ayton signed the offer sheet.
Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn
RFA center Deandre Ayton has agreed to a four-year, $133M maximum offer sheet with the Indiana Pacers, his agents Nima Namakian (Innovate Sports) and Bill Duffy (BDA Sports + WME Sports) tell ESPN. The Phoenix Suns have 48 hours to match the largest offer sheet in NBA history.
   3912. . . . . . . Posted: July 14, 2022 at 03:05 PM (#6086706)
If that's the goal, they're doing a pretty terrible job of it. They've had a winning record all of twice in the past decade.


no the goal is to be plausibly expected to be just good enough so that all the suite and club seat customers re-up, which they'll do so long as the team is passable
then you don't want to be eliminated from the playoffs too early, because even if the suites are sold the F&B revenue is meaningful, they want people to show up at the games
ratings are meaningless so long as they arent terrible, because no NYC cable system can not have MSG. Doesn't matter if the Knicks suck. advertising is helped by better ratings, but its not that big a deal these days
they just want to have a little buzz around the team and not be awful
   3913. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 14, 2022 at 03:25 PM (#6086709)
What are the Suns going to do? I would not want Ayton at anywhere near that contract, but letting him go for nothing would be a pretty big disaster for a contender with Chris Paul.
   3914. jmurph Posted: July 14, 2022 at 03:32 PM (#6086711)
What are the Suns going to do? I would not want Ayton at anywhere near that contract, but letting him go for nothing would be a pretty big disaster for a contender with Chris Paul.

If I understand correctly a sign and trade is now not an option?
   3915. PJ Martinez Posted: July 14, 2022 at 03:35 PM (#6086712)
If I understand correctly a sign and trade is now not an option?
Per Bobby Marks on Twitter:
Because the clock to match doesn’t start until midnight, both sides still have time work out a sign-and-trade before the offer sheet is officially signed.
   3916. . . . . . . Posted: July 14, 2022 at 03:37 PM (#6086713)
letting him go for nothing would be a pretty big disaster for a contender with Chris Paul.


I don't get the logic of this though - which you see all the time. Once the player becomes a restricted free agent, his value is a function of the offer sheet.

If another team signs him to a negative value offer sheet, the player's value goes to zero. Letting the player go at that point is not a disaster, it's just being responsible (subject to exceptions depending on cap status).
   3917. asinwreck Posted: July 14, 2022 at 03:43 PM (#6086715)
Since Indiana also has to make moves to open up the space to sign Ayton, the next few hours are a fun game of chicken as the two front offices mull a deal.
   3918. tshipman Posted: July 14, 2022 at 03:48 PM (#6086716)
What an awful place to be for the Suns that was totally avoidable.
   3919. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 14, 2022 at 03:48 PM (#6086717)
I don't get the logic of this though - which you see all the time. Once the player becomes a restricted free agent, his value is a function of the offer sheet.

If another team signs him to a negative value offer sheet, the player's value goes to zero. Letting the player go at that point is not a disaster, it's just being responsible (subject to exceptions depending on cap status).


It's letting it get to the point where you lose him for nothing that's the disaster. I don't think they should match but they should have been proactive trading him as soon as they decided they didn't want to give him a max.
   3920. PJ Martinez Posted: July 14, 2022 at 03:49 PM (#6086718)
So far, Suns haven't shown an interest in negotiating a sign-and-trade on Ayton with the Pacers, but the expectation remains that Phoenix will match the record-$133M offer sheet once it's signed, sources tell ESPN. Suns could trade Ayton as soon as Jan. 15 once sheet is matched.
Edit (also from Woj):
If Suns match, Ayton has veto power on a trade for a full year.
   3921. asinwreck Posted: July 14, 2022 at 03:52 PM (#6086719)
That tweet is perfectly timed for the Phoenix front office to use as leverage over the next few hours, with "So far" doing some heavy lifting.
   3922. Harlond Posted: July 14, 2022 at 03:53 PM (#6086720)
##3905, 3912--I feel like you're defining what terrible ownership is.
   3923. tshipman Posted: July 14, 2022 at 03:54 PM (#6086721)
Knicks, Pacers, you are making bad decisions that make the league more entertaining. Congratulations, that adds to your legacy.

Sarver, your ass is so tight it squeaks when you walk. Legacy points deducted.
   3924. DCA Posted: July 14, 2022 at 03:55 PM (#6086722)
That's not a lot of time to figure out how to rope in the Nets for Durant (unless everything has already been agreed to), but taking back Turner or Theis gets the Pacers enough room under cap and fills the center position for the Suns.
   3925. asinwreck Posted: July 14, 2022 at 03:57 PM (#6086724)
Sarver's legacy may be on his mind this week due to other bad decisions.
   3926. jmurph Posted: July 14, 2022 at 04:01 PM (#6086727)
Because the clock to match doesn’t start until midnight, both sides still have time work out a sign-and-trade before the offer sheet is officially signed.

Ahh, thanks.

So if it's not a bigger Durant deal, then Turner clearly makes some sense for both teams.
   3927. JJ1986 Posted: July 14, 2022 at 04:13 PM (#6086729)
The Pacers are waiving guard Duane Washington and waiving and stretching the three players who arrived in the Boston trade for Malcolm Brogdon: Malik Fitts, Juwan Morgan and Nik Stauskas, sources tell ESPN. That'll create the cap space to sign Ayton to the max offer sheet.
Per their agents Horst Masterson, Elaine Whiteside, McDonald Dufour and Frank Scabopolis.
   3928. tshipman Posted: July 14, 2022 at 04:38 PM (#6086735)
Those sound like fake names. Horst Masterson? You're making that up.
   3929. . . . . . . Posted: July 14, 2022 at 05:00 PM (#6086737)
##3905, 3912--I feel like you're defining what terrible ownership is.


I don't think running a team to make money is terrible ownership. I think some rich dude running the team at a loss to win a championship is terrible ownership, but I recognize YMMV.
   3930. billyshears Posted: July 14, 2022 at 05:10 PM (#6086740)
The Dolans are terrible. But the reason they are terrible is not that they run the team to make money rather than to win championships.
   3931. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 14, 2022 at 05:45 PM (#6086747)
The thing is that championships are lucrative. But trying to win them, by spending money, is riskier than just coasting along making money. Sports teams' values keep going up and up and up. They are as bulletproof an investment as exists.

The choice is not making money versus trying to win championships. It is A: high-risk win a championship to make truly big money versus B: take the easy route and make money.
   3932. sardonic Posted: July 14, 2022 at 06:32 PM (#6086751)
Many teams are run to make money while still trying to contend, even setting aside examples like the Warriors or Clippers. Boston for example has been dodging the luxury tax for years while building a contender. Toronto. The Knicks could spend the same amount and make the same amount and be run a lot more competently/competitively on the basketball side. They might even make more money!
   3933. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: July 14, 2022 at 07:09 PM (#6086754)
Daryl Morey @dmorey
Excited to announce new @Philadelphia 76ers scout @MagnusCarlsen! He has already identified future superstar Oskar Pedersen-an unknown Norsk Hydro factory worker & proposed that @Joel Embiid, @Matisse Thybulle, @DeAnthonyMelton, & PJ Tucker be called the "Berlin defense" pic.twitter.com/U4DJ9Fnr1H

can't be worse than whoever did the legwork on the shitty MFer.
   3934. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: July 14, 2022 at 08:41 PM (#6086762)
Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania
·
23m
The Phoenix Suns have matched the Indiana Pacers’ four-year, $133 million maximum offer sheet on Deandre Ayton, sources tell
@TheAthletic

@Stadium
. Ayton stays in Phoenix.
   3935. Harlond Posted: July 14, 2022 at 10:41 PM (#6086777)
I think some rich dude running the team at a loss to win a championship is terrible ownership, but I recognize YMMV.
Has there ever been a case where the increase in the value of the franchise has not dwarfed any "losses" along the way? Or where the owner doesn't arrange the accounting so that "losses" accrue to the team so the owner can cry poverty while still reaping big profits on associated businesses (and still realizing the huge capital gain when he sells the team)? Dolan paid $600 million for the Knicks and Forbes values them at $5.8 billion. Dolan is not in any danger of suffering "losses." Neither is Joe Lacob, who paid $450 million for a team valued by Forbes at $5.6 billion. I think the idea of a rich dude running the team at a loss to win a championship is entirely theoretical. Meanwhile, Warriors fans have championships. Knicks fans have the near-certainty the team will never win squat while the very savvy Dolan lines his overstuffed pockets even more. My mileage does indeed vary.
   3936. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: July 14, 2022 at 11:02 PM (#6086778)
Yeah, I agree with 3935. In the NBA of 1962 or 1972 or 1982, then maybe. But in the economic ecosystem of 2022, I can't really get behind the idea of Dolan being a better owner than some other owner paying the luxury tax to try to win (this is one reason among many that Lakers fans were so pissed off about Caruso from the minute it happened).
   3937. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 14, 2022 at 11:04 PM (#6086779)
I don't think running a team to make money is terrible ownership. I think some rich dude running the team at a loss to win a championship is terrible ownership, but I recognize YMMV.

As you say, YMMV, but I define "good ownership" in a sports sense as "doing the things that maximize enjoyment for the fans", not "maximize the revenue extracted from the golden goose". I don't care how much money any of them "make" or "lose", just as I don't particularly care about how much money Apple returns to their shareholders. I'm in the market for the product.
   3938. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 15, 2022 at 08:13 AM (#6086792)
I think good and bad are a bit value-laden and not very illuminating. Competent and incompetent are, I think, more clear. The other factor, besides competence, and I suppose luck, are goal alignment.

Fans want to win and want championships more than anything. I mean ... fans. When ownership shares those goals or is at least mostly aligned with them, then it is only luck and competence that factor in. When the goals are not aligned, when fans detect a lack of interest in wins and/or championships, then fans tend to get very annoyed.

For much of its history, I think Timberwolves ownership has wanted to win for the most part but has been incompetent (and somewhat unlucky).

Of course, from a fan perspective, any ownership whose goals don't align with their goals is often thought of as being "bad ownership", for understandable reasons. Similarly, ownership that is incompetent is also bad. But I would argue they are different types of bad.

The knick's ownership seems to me, at a distance and I am not an expert, to be incompetent at the very least, and I am not entirely sure if they actually want to win as a first or at least high priority. But I am not sure.
   3939. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 15, 2022 at 08:29 AM (#6086795)
Sure, I was using “good” and “bad” in precisely that context — it is a measure of value alignment between what I want from sports ownership and what that ownership does.
   3940. sardonic Posted: July 15, 2022 at 09:09 AM (#6086798)
In today's league, with both a salary cap and even a salary floor, it's really hard for me to understand what the incentive would be to not try to win or operate competently (from a basketball ops standpoint) to at least some extent. Like yeah I could understand not going into the luxury tax, but the Knicks are spending ~$140M on salary this year and don't spend that differently than other teams that are having much more success winning. Given that they are in fact spending that money, to me it's just about competence (and luck) at that point. As far as I can tell it's not misalignment that is causing them to spend $110M/4 on Jalen Brunson -- if they are gonna spend that money, why not spend it better?
   3941. PJ Martinez Posted: July 15, 2022 at 09:18 AM (#6086799)
After the 2004–05 season, the Knicks signed head coach Larry Brown to a 5-year, $50 million contract. After just one (losing) season, Brown was fired and the team bought-out Brown's contract for $18 million. Brown walked away with a total of $28 million for coaching the Knicks for just one year.
Other coaches that also had short-lived tenures as head coaches of the Knicks include Don Chaney (2001–2003) and Lenny Wilkens (2003–2005). Like Thomas and Brown, they remained on the Knicks' payroll following their departure from the bench due to multi-year contracts signed with the owner (and in Chaney's case, 2 separate contract extensions).
In 2007, Dolan was named as a defendant in a sexual harassment lawsuit submitted by a former Knicks executive, Anucha Browne-Sanders. Browne-Sanders accused Dolan of firing her out of spite after she complained about sexual harassment from Isiah Thomas. The court ruled in favor of Brown-Sanders and Dolan had to pay $3 million of the $11 million settlement. MSG was responsible for paying the remainder of the settlement.
   3942. DCA Posted: July 15, 2022 at 10:14 AM (#6086801)
Which is more likely?

A. Suns trade Bridges, Johnson, Saric, and picks to the Nets for Durant
B. Suns trade Bridges to Spurs/Indy for a pair of R1 picks to get under the luxury tax
   3943. . . . . . . Posted: July 15, 2022 at 10:19 AM (#6086803)
Has there ever been a case where the increase in the value of the franchise has not dwarfed any "losses" along the way? Or where the owner doesn't arrange the accounting so that "losses" accrue to the team so the owner can cry poverty while still reaping big profits on associated businesses (and still realizing the huge capital gain when he sells the team)? Dolan paid $600 million for the Knicks and Forbes values them at $5.8 billion. Dolan is not in any danger of suffering "losses." Neither is Joe Lacob, who paid $450 million for a team valued by Forbes at $5.6 billion. I think the idea of a rich dude running the team at a loss to win a championship is entirely theoretical. Meanwhile, Warriors fans have championships. Knicks fans have the near-certainty the team will never win squat while the very savvy Dolan lines his overstuffed pockets even more. My mileage does indeed vary.


OK, the short answer to this is "yes". I am in what they euphemistically call "the restructuring community" (as is, IIRC, billyshears), and the idea that sports teams mint money is completely untrue. I've worked on two in-court insolvencies and a couple more out of court. Sports team distress is kept highly confidential so it creates the illusion of it being a much better business than it actually is.

Also, MSGs books were (until relatively recently) public. It takes a bit of sleuthing to reverse engineer the Knicks results but it isn't impossible. They MINT money. The Dolans are not particularly nice people but they are superb businessmen, and they own the Knicks (and Rangers) to make money. If winning is the best path to making money, they will win. But as it turns out, winning isn't particularly selected for if you are trying to make money with a big city basketball team. Its sort of a happy accident if it happens.

Anyways, back to sports team economics. While sports teams (outside of big cities) are generally not as good as you think at generating cash flow, franchise values have gone up a ton over the last few decades. IMO, most of that is explained by three factors: (1) debt becoming cheaper and cheaper with time; (2) a distortion created by US sports league rules that make it very hard for a financial buyer to own a sports team - its 90% rich individuals with a smattering of media companies, and that artificially lowers team values, but it used to lower it alot more; with more ultrarich individuals now, the spread between the price paid by people who would be approved as buyers and what people like Elliot would pay if they could buy has reduced (as you can see by franchise values in Europe, where financial ownership is allowed); (3) a distortion created by the weird semi-regulated media market that induces the big media companies to pay much more for media rights than would be the case in a fully deregulated space.

of the above factors
(1) may not be true for all that longer
(2) has sort of worn off, as the spread has narrowed
(3) is also rolling off over time

I suspect there will be a wave of sports franchise insolvencies about 6-10 years out from now - and I'm not alone in thinking that.

To tie this back, the problem with the Knicks is that they are one of the rare franchises run as part of the buisiness, and so subject to the same ######## as the Blue Jays and the Braves who are in a similar boat. I guess you could say the Knicks should be like the Braves, and that reflects competence. I wouldn't disagree with that. To be fair, one of the few operators savvier than the Dolans is John Malone.
   3944. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 15, 2022 at 10:30 AM (#6086804)
I mean, the Raptors are owned by MLSE and they seem competently run from an on court perspective. And anyway, I simply don’t care about how much money owners make.
   3945. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 15, 2022 at 10:45 AM (#6086805)
Although, #3943 is really interesting, thanks.
   3946. . . . . . . Posted: July 15, 2022 at 11:06 AM (#6086807)
Neither is Joe Lacob, who paid $450 million for a team valued by Forbes at $5.6 billion.


Right, but Lacob's play was very specific to his particular facts. In essence, he bought the NJ Devils (a franchise that for years was perpetually on the verge of insolvency) and turned it into the NY Yankees. I will be interested to see what he does going forward now that he has extracted about $1B of value from the local governments.
   3947. . . . . . . Posted: July 15, 2022 at 11:09 AM (#6086808)
And FWIW, notwithstanding what you read publicly, Prokhorov tried the same gambit with the Nets and it did not work that well. (The $2B of gain that was widely reported was wildly overstated, though correct as a technical matter. There's a lot of bullshit in sports.)
   3948. PJ Martinez Posted: July 15, 2022 at 12:13 PM (#6086817)
What I take from all this vis-a-vis the Knicks is that the team prints money for Dolan whether or not they win so he doesn't have an incentive to make them better and doesn't care. Not great, if you're a Knicks fan.
   3949. Paul d mobile Posted: July 15, 2022 at 12:49 PM (#6086820)
Yeah there's a difference between being a good investment and being a good owner
   3950. tshipman Posted: July 15, 2022 at 01:07 PM (#6086822)
Being a fan of a team is not JUST about winning.

Winning is the thing that people talk about the most, of course, but the overall fan experience is the most important thing. The best feeling in sports is winning a championship, and that feeling aligns players, coaches, management and fans.

I would suggest, however, that going to a game and having a great time is more important than whether or not a team spends the full MLE. Obviously, you can do both. You can offer a great television product, offer a great arena experience while winning. But going to MSG is still special, and to whatever extent Dolan is responsible for that, he deserves credit.

Atlanta, for instance, when I worked on the NBA account, provided a terrible NBA experience for fans. The parking was sketchy and confusing, the food was old and nasty, the season ticket sales person was barely interested when approached, and the luxury box area was fairly disappointing. Is it a surprise that even though the team was good, the upper deck was totally empty?

We, as fans, tend to think inclusively of fans. Teams tend to think of fans first and foremost as customers who they solicit money and feedback from. The person who roots for a team mostly virtually is not a stakeholder for teams.
   3951. aberg Posted: July 15, 2022 at 06:40 PM (#6086847)
I would suggest, however, that going to a game and having a great time is more important than whether or not a team spends the full MLE. Obviously, you can do both. You can offer a great television product, offer a great arena experience while winning. But going to MSG is still special, and to whatever extent Dolan is responsible for that, he deserves credit.

Atlanta, for instance, when I worked on the NBA account, provided a terrible NBA experience for fans. The parking was sketchy and confusing, the food was old and nasty, the season ticket sales person was barely interested when approached, and the luxury box area was fairly disappointing. Is it a surprise that even though the team was good, the upper deck was totally empty?


This was kind of the plot of winning time.
   3952. spivey Posted: July 15, 2022 at 08:48 PM (#6086855)
This might be a hot take, but winning in many ways is the worst part of being a fan. Besides being a fan of a team like the Kings or whatever where you suck, don't see a future, and don't trust the people in charge to fix it.

But being a fan of one of the top ~5 teams where winning is almost more relief than excitement is pretty exhausting, if I'm totally honest.

The absolute best part of being a fan is a season like this one for Memphis, where they go from good to really good, and the unknowable future is so exciting. But in a year or two, they'll be in this position too.
   3953. tshipman Posted: July 15, 2022 at 09:28 PM (#6086861)
The absolute best part of being a fan is a season like this one for Memphis, where they go from good to really good, and the unknowable future is so exciting.


Agree with this, but would add that the Warriors' title this year is probably right up there with that kind of year.

Never felt expected, often felt fragile and tenuous, but the way you could see the pride that each of them had in each other, and the joy that they shared.
   3954. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: July 15, 2022 at 10:04 PM (#6086863)
This might be a hot take, but winning in many ways is the worst part of being a fan

But being a fan of one of the top ~5 teams where winning is almost more relief than excitement is pretty exhausting, if I'm totally honest.


Between the time Howard left and when James signed, the Lakers went through a six-year period where they had nothing at stake except player development and salary cap machinations. There was a certain chill factor there as compared to other kinds of Lakers experiences, but it certainly was not much fun and there was some frustration as I realized that while none of the Lakers' lottery picks (Randle, Russell, Ingram, and Ball) was a huge blunder, none of them was going to lead the team back to the Finals, either.

And the "relief" thing--sure. 1985, 1987, 1988, and 2010 were the seasons most like that for the Lakers fanbase. 2021 was probably like that if you are a Bucks fan. But I think that being a fan of a team like Sacramento or New York would likely be far less enjoyable than any of that was. I know one guy who is a Sacto fan, and his thing is sort of cynicism/gallows humor. I expect that is pretty common.



   3955. GregD Posted: July 16, 2022 at 02:47 AM (#6086903)
On the Kings….I’m not a fan per se but I live close enough that I go three or four times a year. It’s a good time and lots of the fans are really dedicated to them (unless it’s flooded with fans of the other team.) if I lived closer I would likely go 10-15 times a year. In a way it’s a very cool place to see a game because it’s a good arena and a real sense of urgency about being a fan. They need you to cheer! Warriors games are great but you individually are always aware you’re completely replaceable.
   3956. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 16, 2022 at 07:46 AM (#6086905)
I know one guy who is a Sacto fan, and his thing is sort of cynicism/gallows humor. I expect that is pretty common.

This was the predominant mode for Wovles fans, in my experience. Taylor is a terrible owner, but you could tell that he wasn't engaging in sham moves to distract from his rapacious greed; he was just very bad at trying to win.
   3957. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 16, 2022 at 04:39 PM (#6086943)
Between the time Howard left and when James signed, the Lakers went through a six-year period where they had nothing at stake except player development and salary cap machinations. There was a certain chill factor there as compared to other kinds of Lakers experiences, but it certainly was not much fun and there was some frustration as I realized that while none of the Lakers' lottery picks (Randle, Russell, Ingram, and Ball) was a huge blunder, none of them was going to lead the team back to the Finals, either.


This is kind of what it was like right after Deron Williams was traded, and there were definitely fun parts (including the chill factor), but it also does suck not really caring about any of the games.

I know this next season is going to be brutal as a Jazz fan, even though I think they're making the correct moves. But they're not even going to have any potential future all stars for at least a season, will be one of the worst teams, and will have easily the worst uniforms in the league. I'm guessing I end up watching like 10-20 Jazz games and mostly watch national NBA games or pick a team like the Wolves to follow.

But being a fan of one of the top ~5 teams where winning is almost more relief than excitement is pretty exhausting, if I'm totally honest.


I think this is part of why I haven't watched any baseball this year (as a Yankees fan), though mostly it's because I think pretty much everyone in charge of the league hates the sport and sees it solely as a vehicle for ad revenue. NBA obviously cares mostly about making money too but I think it at least realizes the best way to do this is to make the game enjoyable.
   3958. sardonic Posted: July 17, 2022 at 05:00 PM (#6087085)
Not gonna lie, after We Believe, I followed the team closely the next year as they went around .500 and drafted Marco Belinelli, then prayed that Anthony Rudolph would be the answer. I feel like Brendan Wright was involved at some point. By the time they drafted that kid from Davidson and the NCAAs, I was mostly checked out. I'd drop in for 1-2 games a season on Asian American heritage night or when Jeremy Lin might be playing, and by the time they were upsetting the 3 seed Nuggets I was back going to playoff games. If anything, the one prospect I followed and was excited about was actually Harrison Barnes not this guy I had barely heard about from Washington St or some small school flash in the pan who played the same position as Monta Ellis or some second round pick I literally never heard of until years later when I had no idea why he'd be playing ahead of David Lee.

But realistically in that interregum I just spent my time on other stuff -- there were some good A's teams in that time period, and I have clear memories of going to a seemingly impossibly long string of elimination games to see them eliminated by the Tigers, with just a single playoff series win. I hosted playoff and super bowl watch parties for the Harbaugh Niners. And I also finished grad school and started my career.

   3959. spivey Posted: July 17, 2022 at 06:35 PM (#6087098)
It's been out a while, so I assume a lot of serious basketball fans have already seen it, but I finally got around to watching Hustle last night. It was really good. And much more of a normal "Hollywood" type of movie than Uncut Gems, which is also good, but quite difficult to watch for a lot of it.

Really good acting by Juancho Hernangomez, and Ant was entertaining, as always.
   3960. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: July 17, 2022 at 10:27 PM (#6087144)
I have clear memories of going to a seemingly impossibly long string of elimination games to see them eliminated by the Tigers, with just a single playoff series win.


You and me both, brother. You and me both.
   3961. Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman Fred Posted: July 18, 2022 at 07:49 AM (#6087160)
[3958] As a non-Ws-fan, the "interregnum" years were great. You could go to the Coliseum on a whim for $10, and root for the Dubs without having to worry about them challenging the team you actually root for. Plus Nellyball was a fun watch-- I remember the entire bar groaning as Stephen Jackson missed a three down 1 or 2 in the final seconds, somehow got the rebound and ... hoisted up another three. Good times.
   3962. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: July 18, 2022 at 04:01 PM (#6087222)
kenrich willimas signed a 4/27.2 extension; fake atlanta would have done the same
   3963. aberg Posted: July 18, 2022 at 04:48 PM (#6087236)
Kenrich Williams told Presti to spend what it takes to extend Lu Dort vastly over market and give him whatever is leftover.
   3964. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: July 18, 2022 at 05:50 PM (#6087242)
ha! that was soooo much dort money.
   3965. asinwreck Posted: July 18, 2022 at 07:27 PM (#6087250)
I wonder if Presti deliberately gave Dort that much money in order to be a matching salary in some 2024 trade (assuming some of these draftees actually point the Thunder closer to contention and he wants to trade a few picks for a consequential veteran).
   3966. jmurph Posted: July 19, 2022 at 08:59 AM (#6087330)
The Dort deal really is crazy. Is he definitely good? Like, projecting as a solid starter over the years of the contract? It's hard to tell in that team.
   3967. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: July 19, 2022 at 09:16 AM (#6087332)
Here are the current NBA Regular Season Win totals from PointsBet. They didn't put up numbers for Lakers/Nets/Knicks/Jazz. I will just throw them in there, though without numbers

1 BOS 55.5
2 MIL 51.5
3 PHI 50.5 (over -155)
4 MIA 49.5 (over -120)
5 ATL 47.5
6 TOR 44.5 (over -155)
7 BKN ???
8 CHI 42.5 (over -150)
9 CLE 42.5 (over -140)
10 NYK ???
11 WAS 35.5 (over -120)
12 CHA 35.5
13 ORL 27.5 (over +120)
14 DET 26.5 (over -125)
15 IND 25.5

1 PHX 52.5 (over -140)
2 LAC 52.5 (over -115)
3 MEM 50.5 (over -130)
4 GSW 50.5 (over -130)
5 DEN 50.5 (over +100)
6 MIN 49.5 (over +100)
7 DAL 47.5 (over -115)
8 NOP 44.5 (over -130)
9 LAL ???
10 POR 40.5
11 SAC 32.5 (over -170)
12 HOU 27.5 (over +145)
13 OKC 25.5
14 UTA ???
15 SAS 23.5 (over -115)
   3968. spivey Posted: July 19, 2022 at 09:21 AM (#6087334)
I like Dort a good bit. 3 and D wing who can score a bit on his own, young. I think he'd be in the rotation for every team in the NBA. Still think it's an overpay, but I expect he'll be moveable on that contract so long as his 3pt% stays around 34%.
   3969. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 19, 2022 at 10:13 AM (#6087341)
It is likely space madness, but I might take the Wolves over.
   3970. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 19, 2022 at 10:19 AM (#6087343)
Basically, all of the concerns I have over the team are playoff based. I think the Wolves could be a very good regular-season team.
   3971. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 19, 2022 at 11:02 AM (#6087350)
Basically, all of the concerns I have over the team are playoff based. I think the Wolves could be a very good regular-season team.

I'm not even worried about the playoffs. I think the team is going to start slow but end up in the top four regular season teams in the West. What happens after that is gravy.
   3972. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 19, 2022 at 11:11 AM (#6087353)
Thinking about the Wolves roster one underrated thing I really like is that now Jaden plays the 3 by default (I think he was a bit overmatched at the 4, which he played some last year) and Ant is firmly the 2 (I think he is much better as a 2 than 3).

I know, positionless basketball, but in one move the Wolves went from much of their lineup often playing small for their position to now primarily playing big or at least normal for their position.

I cannot wait for the next season to start, a totally new and totally different way to implode (jk).
   3973. DCA Posted: July 19, 2022 at 12:00 PM (#6087362)
I think BOS under (56 is a lot for a non-superteam) and SAS over (Pop is a floor raiser) are pretty safe.
   3974. jmurph Posted: July 19, 2022 at 12:11 PM (#6087367)
I am admittedly not a gambler, but I can't imagine putting money on the Clippers to have the (joint) best record in the West. Maybe they will! But are their guys going to play? Kawhi's games totals since the 16-17 season: 9, 60, 57 (of 72), 52, 0. Paul George the last 3 seasons: 48 (of 72), 54, 31.
   3975. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 19, 2022 at 12:12 PM (#6087369)
Thinking about the Wolves roster one underrated thing I really like is that now Jaden plays the 3 by default (I think he was a bit overmatched at the 4, which he played some last year) and Ant is firmly the 2 (I think he is much better as a 2 than 3).

Yes. A Russell/Edwards/McDaniel/Towns/Gobert starting five is very long, and both Jaden and Ant will now be playing their natural positions. I am very excited.
   3976. asinwreck Posted: July 19, 2022 at 12:38 PM (#6087375)
Given the continued uneasy reports about the knee of the Bulls' MVP (Lonzo Ball), I'd knock 2-3 wins off that projection.
   3977. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: July 19, 2022 at 12:45 PM (#6087376)
My personal leans were under on Cleveland and Chicago, but then the juice went up on the overs so someone out there disagreed with me.
   3978. PJ Martinez Posted: July 19, 2022 at 12:53 PM (#6087378)
Toronto and Dallas both seem low to me.
   3979. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: July 19, 2022 at 02:26 PM (#6087398)
Yeah, that Clipper number seems bonkers.

Put me down for over on OKC and MIL, under on POR and ORL (look, this team is just terrible).

   3980. smileyy Posted: July 19, 2022 at 08:24 PM (#6087433)
Andrew Wiggins regrets being able to play basketball for most of this season. Apparently he'd rather put Covid into his body than a vaccine.
   3981. An Athletic in Powderhorn, Silly Posted: July 20, 2022 at 12:07 PM (#6087483)
"I still wish I didn’t get it, to be honest with you. But you gotta do what you gotta do. I did it, and you know, I was an All-Star this year, and a champion. So that was the good part, just not missing out on the year, best year of my career. But for my body, I just don’t like putting all that stuff in my body. So I didn’t like that, and I didn’t like that it wasn’t my choice, you know? I didn’t like that. It was either get this, or don’t play."

(Sighs.) Andrew, you need someone in your life who is willing to pull you aside and say "That's a stupid opinion. Believe it if you want, whatever. But keep that one to yourself. Don't tell people that you think that."
   3982. DCA Posted: July 20, 2022 at 12:48 PM (#6087490)
Andrew Wiggins regrets being able to play basketball for most of this season. Apparently he'd rather put Covid into his body than a vaccine.

And Durant --> GSW just became significantly more likely. I mean, it probably went from 2% to 5% but that's how Wiggins gets himself shipped out of town.
   3983. jmurph Posted: July 21, 2022 at 08:51 AM (#6087575)
(Sighs.) Andrew, you need someone in your life who is willing to pull you aside and say "That's a stupid opinion. Believe it if you want, whatever. But keep that one to yourself. Don't tell people that you think that."

That is NOT how you stay on the hanger-on payroll, come on. (My advice is for sale, Andrew, if you're reading this. You're doing the right thing!)
   3984. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 21, 2022 at 08:53 AM (#6087576)
I would absolutely be a toady for an NBA player, sure.
   3985. jmurph Posted: July 21, 2022 at 08:58 AM (#6087577)
Ha I mean I definitely like getting money to do nothing, but unfortunately I'm washed and can't really stay out past 10 anymore, so I don't think I'm the right fit for most of these guys.
   3986. asinwreck Posted: July 21, 2022 at 08:59 AM (#6087578)
Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn
Veteran forward JaMychal Green is working toward a contract buyout with Oklahoma City, and once that’s completed and he’s cleared waivers, Green intends to sign with Golden State, sources tell ESPN.

The Warriors are effectively swapping out Gary Payton II and Otto Porter Jr. for Donte DiVincenzo and Green. They also signed Lester Quiñones to a two-way contract. Unless they do trade for Durant, the most interesting thing to watch this year is how much Kerr will give minutes to Kuminga, Moody, and Wiseman both for their development and for veteran load management purposes.
   3987. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 21, 2022 at 09:06 AM (#6087579)
Ha I mean I definitely like getting money to do nothing, but unfortunately I'm washed and can't really stay out past 10 anymore, so I don't think I'm the right fit for most of these guys.

Yeah, that's gonna be a problem for me too.
   3988. jmurph Posted: July 21, 2022 at 12:44 PM (#6087607)
They're still the worst, obviously, but very cool that the Sixers appear to be financing their new arena.
   3989. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: July 21, 2022 at 01:04 PM (#6087613)
They're still the worst, obviously, but very cool that the Sixers appear to be financing their new arena.
and now it (almost) makes sense why they closed that hospital in center city and refused to allow the city to reopen it as a triage ward during the height of the pandemic.

Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn
Free agent James Harden has agreed on a two-year, $68.6M deal, including a player option, to return to the 76ers, sources tell ESPN.
Austin Krell @NBAKrell
In total, looks like Harden took a 30% discount on the most he could've gotten in 2022-23, the $47,366,760 player option.
Gina Mizell @ginamizell
I currently have nine tabs open on my computer. Anybody who has caught a glimpse of my screen and reacted with horror at the endless tabs understands that this is progress. Thank you for your support as I continue to learn and grow.
   3990. An Athletic in Powderhorn, Silly Posted: July 21, 2022 at 01:05 PM (#6087614)
Durant to the Warriors is the kind of soap opera plotline that I don't think makes sense from a real-world perspective. Plus Lacob has been consistent about wanting to limit his luxury tax penalties. I don't think a reunion is in the best interest of the team or the player.
   3991. tshipman Posted: July 21, 2022 at 02:40 PM (#6087629)
Ha I mean I definitely like getting money to do nothing, but unfortunately I'm washed and can't really stay out past 10 anymore, so I don't think I'm the right fit for most of these guys.


I feel like the NBA has changed in that the stuff that can really get you in trouble nowadays happens during business hours. Guys make enough money now that child support and drugs can't ruin your life as easily. Guys go bankrupt now by buying houses for their family and investing in stupid businesses.

So your dreams of being an NBA player's "money guy" are still alive!

And Durant --> GSW just became significantly more likely. I mean, it probably went from 2% to 5% but that's how Wiggins gets himself shipped out of town.


I don't think Durant --> GSW is going to happen for a bunch of reasons. GSW has basically never made a big prospects for star trade, despite it making sense a bunch of times.

I kinda feel like a Durant trade is not going to happen until training camp and will only really happen if he escalates by either holding out or talking about surgery.

edit:
bunch of chatter that a Donovan Mitchell deal might be coming soon.
   3992. DCA Posted: July 21, 2022 at 03:22 PM (#6087633)
Veteran forward JaMychal Green ... intends to sign with Golden State, sources tell ESPN.

I'll take it. By my count, that makes 13, including Rollins and Baldwin, who aren't going to be able to give NBA-quality play this year. Quinones and presumably Weatherspoon on 2-ways, who also aren't going to be NBA quality this season.

I really would like to see cromulent vet PG and C on minimum deals to round out the roster. Current roster relies far too much on the health of Curry/Poole/Dray/Looney for my liking. Eric Bledsoe and Cody Zeller (or the equivalent) would be really helpful for depth, and wouldn't be required to log non-emergency important minutes.
   3993. sardonic Posted: July 21, 2022 at 03:37 PM (#6087641)
I'll take it. By my count, that makes 13, including Rollins and Baldwin, who aren't going to be able to give NBA-quality play this year. Quinones and presumably Weatherspoon on 2-ways, who also aren't going to be NBA quality this season.

I really would like to see cromulent vet PG and C on minimum deals to round out the roster. Current roster relies far too much on the health of Curry/Poole/Dray/Looney for my liking. Eric Bledsoe and Cody Zeller (or the equivalent) would be really helpful for depth, and wouldn't be required to log non-emergency important minutes.


I think the Warriors are set. Donte Divincenzo is 3rd string PG I think and Wiseman is 3rd string center, which is fine. If Curry/Poole or Loon/Dray get hurt they'll find a body off the street.

Returning the big 6 of Curry/Klay/Wiggins/Dray/Looney/Poole.

DDV takes on the Gary Payton II role of defensively oriented bench guard, with less defense but more offense.

JaMychael Green takes on the Bjelica role as stretch big.

Moody and or Kuminga are penciled in to step up and take Otto Porter Jr's role.

Then you still find spots to get Wiseman some minutes.

That's already a 10 man rotation, then your 11-15 deep bench are Patrick Baldwin Jr., Ryan Rollins and two way/G League type guys. If some interesting vet pops up on the buyout market then they could slot in there too.
   3994. spivey Posted: July 21, 2022 at 04:04 PM (#6087652)
I think what I saw from Moody and Kuminga suggested to me they should be able to get 30-40 solid minutes/game between them next year, but for Golden State's sake, they'd better. They lost a lot of their wing length and athleticism with GP2, JTA, and Porter.
   3995. jmurph Posted: July 21, 2022 at 05:49 PM (#6087681)
I'm among the Wiseman holdouts, I still think he's got a chance to be really good if he's healthy.
   3996. sardonic Posted: July 21, 2022 at 07:14 PM (#6087695)
jmurph we can be neighbors on Wiseman island, still plenty of prime beachfront real estate available.
   3997. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 21, 2022 at 10:08 PM (#6087719)
Plenty of room in the Ant Bandwagon - we're going places!
   3998. Your favorite TFTIO, me! Posted: July 22, 2022 at 09:15 AM (#6087754)
It has been a long time since the Wovles have had a player as charismatic as Edwards. It's a weird feeling, not having to proactively defend some dull, weird, flawed dude who we all love.
   3999. aberg Posted: July 22, 2022 at 11:33 AM (#6087771)
not having to proactively defend some dull, weird, flawed dude who we all love.


Was Love dull and weird? I know he was definitely flawed as a defender and that limited the upside of the team at his peak. But he has always seemed like a pretty good dude, has done lots of charitable work, has a sense of humor, works really hard on his game, and has been outspoken about mental health in the game. They built garbage teams around him for the most part, but I will still go to bat for Love.

Edit: "Go to bat for Love" sounds like a low-budget Netflix romcom where two Disney alums fall in love on a baseball team.
   4000. aberg Posted: July 22, 2022 at 11:35 AM (#6087772)
Sorry if I missed this, but where exactly is the Sixers downtown arena going to go? I used to live in Philly and want to try to picture it. The renderings weren't very clear to me.
Page 40 of 44 pages ‹ First  < 38 39 40 41 42 >  Last ›

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Dynasty League Baseball

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Traderdave
for his generous support.

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Page rendered in 0.8496 seconds
46 querie(s) executed