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Friday, April 15, 2022
2022 NBA Playoffs thread
I estimate the NBA thread only had 10-12 years of content so we’re in reruns already.
Moses Taylor loves a good maim
Posted: April 15, 2022 at 11:59 AM | 4354 comment(s)
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Tags: narratives, nba, off-topic, playoffs
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No, not really, but he wasn't super charismatic, ISTM? Neither is Towns?
Better if he had been.
Block that goes 10th to 11th, Market to Filbert where the Gallery was
Shams has it as the following:
Smart vs. White is just about salary matching. I can't imagine that would actually be the hold-up, and I imagine the actual hold up would be the picks. I would personally evaluate Smart and White as being very similar value. Boston wants to give up just one pick, and Brooklyn wants multiple.
This leak appears to be coming from Brooklyn's side, since no agents would be involved yet and Boston has no incentive to leak. I imagine the point of this leak is to drive up the offers from Miami/Suns who otherwise felt like they were negotiating against themselves. I assume that this means a Durant deal is actually reasonably likely.
I think Brown, White, and a FRP is a very fair deal, especially for a team not looking to bottom out, which makes trades much harder.
...
I also just have to say again, I cannot believe Brooklyn gave up the 2023 FRP for Royce O'Neale. There's no world in which that was a good decision, but absolutely one in which you know KD is going to ask out 24 hours later.
It's weird because there's such a large delta between what the Nets want to do and what they should do.
Like, objectively, this package for Durant is probably worse than the package for Gobert from a talent perspective. The over/under for all NBA teams that Jaylen Brown and Derrick White make in their career is probably 0.5. It's clearly the best package with a "star young player" that the Nets are going to get.
However, this is all just a bad decision by the Nets and what they should do is plan on being bad, particularly this year when Houston will also be bad, and rebuild from there.
Edit: I forgot about the Royce O'Neal trade. Jesus what a terrible series of decisions for the Nets.
I think this is about right (though I'm thinking Phoenix might be about out by now and would swap that out for "Other").
Seems like the offer and counter are close enough that they could bridge that gap. Make the second pick more heavily protected to protect Boston if something goes horribly wrong, but Tatum + Durant with a reasonable number of good role players is one hell of a squad.
I disagree. I think Brown is worth at least what Murray/Jrue Holiday fetched (better than Murray imo, worse than Jrue was but younger). So that's like 3 FRPs and a swap level. White's worth a FRP, maybe a bit more.
I think all told it's about the equivalent of 6 FRPs. Though there's value in getting all those from one team because then they can't protect them.
I think this gets back to your earlier point around Brown being a polarizing player. Fair enough, though.
Yeah, I agree on both counts. I don't think Brooklyn wants this deal if they're leaking it, though.
For mass transit, the spot is unbeatable. Right above the El and the regional rail station, close to the Broad Street Subway line, and near the patco train line that goes to NJ.
It would only be a couple of blocks from Chinatown and there is some concern about squeezing out that community. When the Phillies wanted a new stadium before citizens Bank Park, chinatown was one of the spots considered. The Asian American community fought it and won. But the proposed arena would be not quite adjacent to Chinatown so I don’t know how valid the current concerns are.
Did the wizards arena kill DC‘s Chinatown? That’s what I am hearing but I don’t know the history there. I am skeptical that Washington ever had a Chinatown as big and active as Philly’s.
So while I don’t think the arena was responsible for the decline of dc’s chinatown, it’s essentially put the last nail in the coffin.
This is a good thing. Chinatowns are basically ghettos; what's happening is that the next generation of Chinese immigrants is successful and moving out to nicer neighborhoods, often neighborhoods that are more mixed or in the suburbs.
In NYC for example, there's more and better chinese food out in Flushing and Elmhurst and South Brooklyn than there ever was on Mott St. A lot of the remaining Manhattan chinatown - particularly the east end of it - is a later wave of desperately poor Fuzhounese immigrants who haven't made it yet.
Here's LeBron
None of the information is particularly surprising (I think even fans know that LeBron is pretty good on the drive and you have to hope he takes midrangers and you live with the results). However, it is a bit surprising to me that the information is pretty basic. The only thing that's even remotely insightful is the point that LeBron only takes threes going left off the dribble.
I get that most of this is going to be gone over in shootaround, and the coaching staff is going to emphasize certain points, but it does seem like an opportunity from a formatting information for adult learners perspective.
Sure, some of that is happening but it would be a shame to lose a neighborhood with a distinct character and historical significance. I am generally pro growth and anti NIMBY. But sometimes the neighborhood character arguments are legitimate and unique, and once a place is gone it's gone.
Though I'm not sure that would happen here since there will be a block or two buffer between the arena and Chinatown. Selfishly, I'd want to maintain Chinatown as is so I can get some cheap noodles after a game.
chip engelland joins okc.
Several years ago, I tried to find one of these jerseys of Grant Hill to wear as a joke and discovered that I was far from the first person with that idea. They were like $300+ on ebay.
Seems like confirmation that Pop is out soon.
allow me to summarize the future findings:
-- noone else was willing to offer the 37 year old pj tucker 3/50.
-- noone at all was willing to offer james harden a full 4/5 year 50MM per year max contract.
-- danuel house doesn't ####### matter and is completely unreliable..
-- the sixers probably did some shady ####, almost completely unnecessarily.
https://youtu.be/qT5GlgXrX-0
Two books worth considering--I read both:
The Rivalry, by John Taylor, about Chamberlain v. Russell. A decent book about a great topic--with a great cover photo.
link to Amazon, but don't buy it there haha
Rise of a Dynasty, by Bill Reynolds, about the 1957 NBA Finals. Also, decent book, great topic.
link
Basketball on Paper, by Dean Oliver, is sort of the ur-text of NBA analytics. He has a whole chapter on Russell, and concludes that Russell was worth about six points a game above an average center on D, making him the D equivalent of Michael Jordan. I expect that is pretty much right.
Also, I think Russell is a little bit underappreciated as an historical figure, especially the coaching part of what he achieved.
R.I.P. to an American original.
big press conference in midtown Manhattan, and countless luminaries were there (though not nearly like the one in Cleveland for that All-Star Game, which had 47 or 48 of them. I think Pete Maravich at that point was the only one who had passed on).
for reasons that I can't completely recall at that NYC press conference, somehow the inkstained wretches depart yet I'm still there.
I see Russell and Wilt yukking it up in the corner and - well, the worst they could do was say no to a joint interview, right?
it actually was more like a continuation of their banter, and they just let me watch (in awe, which was not my typical reaction almost no matter who was the subject).
it's well-known that they didn't always like each other, and pretty much also that they had reconciled over time.
but this was 100x more "reconciled." they were positively giddy as they shared old stories.
the Celtics played on Thanksgiving in Philly basically every year in the 1960s - and after the game, Wilt always would have Russell over for dinner with Wilt's family. that was the source of much of the banter, but it extended to so many other topics.
it was like each of them was so far beyond the level of any other player that only they could breathe that amount of rarified air. and with the games long-ago completed, they could enjoy the memories together.
I wrote long that day - of course. next day, I see the story was trimmed. a lot. imbecile sports editor said they "were tight on space."
hell, then hold it a day, FFS - it was just the 3 of us, dammit, for close to a half-hour.
to sum up, I totally suck for letting the tape disappear.
going for the interview was good, but I still feel like I got above the rim - but then missed the dunk. (I got a 1-on-1 with Wilt a year later, but he was headed downhill at that point and died only a year after that. and while both were good in Cleveland, it was just being a part of a media horde. this was the one.)
youth really is wasted on the young - and even the early middle-aged, clearly.
RIP, Mr. Russell.
The dynastic Celtics had more in common than you'd think with the modern game and D'Antoni's Seven Seconds Suns: they played "four out, Bill in". In Russell's first nine seasons, they led the NBA in pace eight times and were in second place once.
Speaking of cross-era comps, who is the best athlete to come out of Oakland? How would you compare Russell and Rickey Henderson?
One thing in recent years that I was happy to discover is he and Bill Withers were very good friends, to the point that Russell alerted Withers that John Legend and Questlove had covered "I Can't Write Left-Handed," which led to Questlove asking Withers if he could record him. Alas, that did not happen.
I also historically think Russell (the player) is overrated, but there's no doubt he's an all-time Top 10 player, probably Top 5. Rickey is amazing, but I don't think he can touch that inner, inner circle level.
It was also very cool that Russell showed up at the Finals most years, and he never gave off a "back in my day" vibe.
Yep. The Finals MVP Award is the Bill Russell Award, as most here know.
I would put James, Jordan and Abdul-Jabbar ahead of Russell. After that I would not really argue with anybody who had him 4-12 or so.
In terms of player impact on the history of the NBA, Russell is arguably #1. Mikan would be up there on that list as well.
Precedent dictates that league revokes 5 first round picks. And you can also have Ndudi Ebi.
It's hard to peg his value as a player. He was obviously an amazing defender. The full games of the 60s Celtics that are available online make it clear that he was playing a different game than most of the other guys out there. Maybe it was just that the style of play at that point made it easier for a single defender to lift up a whole team. Boston went from below average defensive ratings immediately before and after Russell played to easily #1 the whole time he was there. We talk about someone like Gobert being a one-man top 10 defense today, but even that's not really true. Imagine if Evan Mobley was so good that he didn't take Cleveland up to 7th in DRTG, but the very best defense in the league, and also won the title. So, either Russell was WAY better defensively than the best modern defender, or the game allowed for a single defender to make a bigger impact. Either way, it's difficult for us as modern fans and observers to contextualize what he did.
Russell was 6-10, 215. That's hardly Gobert's body.
The obvious comparison to me has always been Ben Wallace, but a little better from the FT line. People take that as some kind of insult or whatever, but Bill Russell was a hell of a player and really, the basketball lessons of Bill Russell are still poorly learned today.
Ben Wallace scored 7pts/36 at 90 TS+. I think it's hard to imagine him exactly how he was being ported into today's game and being a top 5 all-time player. But if he played today, he'd be growing up in a different era and would have at least slightly different skills that fit the era.
I've grown fonder of his career over time. It was a smaller league back then but it's hard to hand wave away that much winning.
Love love love Rickey but Joe Morgan is the greatest baseball player from Oakland. Rickey beats out FRobby for #2 but FRobby was amazing too (and of course went to McClymonds high school with Russell and played forward there, too.)
Sure, this is a totally valid statement. It just kind of depends on what your beliefs are about the 1960s NBA. The other comp for Russell is Rodman, but with an all-time competitive brain/mindset.
I tend to think that he would be closer to Draymond/Rodman/Wallace levels of impact (which, to be clear are still incredibly high), and not LeBron/MJ levels of impact.
But, as great a basketball player as he was, he was an even better human, and that is probably more worth celebrating.
add Billie Jean King to your list, or we're going to have to drop the gloves (or, put them on. depends if this is hockey, or boxing).
it's true that it was cool that Russell would drop in annually at the NBA Finals.
but BJK does that at the U.S. Open in NY every late summer, and she is even more hands-on with current players, past players, the media, the fans - everybody.
women's sports would have developed eventually, to some extent.
but do I think that without her, it would be near what it is today?
no ####### way. she jump-started everything.
The first athlete I consciously remember as being influential in more than just a sporting context was Arthur Ashe. Before Ashe, I didn't know that (1) black people were allowed to play tennis, and (2) people with glasses were allowed to play anything.
The Boston Celtics are 4 years in the future.
interesting that you mention Ashe. she and BJK were fixtures in that US Open press box for many years.
it was amusing to out-of-town columnists especially.
call from their sports desk: "ok, you want me to track down legendary tennis players to offer cogent insight into the upside of our local hotshot who is playing this year? it's a tall order, but I'll try."
walk anywhere from 6 to 60 feet, and you've got two of the greatest pioneers in the history of the sport.
and they were happy to recommend who else could contribute - and tell you exactly where to find them. nice work if you can get it.
I attended the Ashe press conference at HBO about 30 years ago, just after it was leaked that he had contracted AIDS.
big crowd, and not just press. I rode up the elevator with a prominent NYC news anchor, and she was beyond distraught.
people settle into their seats, and then comes the most uncomfortable silence imaginable.
Ashe "reads the room," as they say - and kicks off his comments by confirming that he was indeed "proud to have been chosen as the next manager of the New York Yankees." [of course, 30 years ago, Steinbrenner was infamous for his constant turnover of that job.]
Ashe actually was furious that USA Today had been nosing around about the AIDS rumor, so he felt forced to hold this event.
but that was one thing he had in common with Rachel Robinson, actually, who in not-so-recent years would still hold court at a Mets stadium groundbreaking or another in Brooklyn for the Nets arena.
and same for Buck O'Neil, it seems. all three with every single goddam right to be bitter beyond imagination.
somehow, I guess they recognized that - and then also recognized that was not the best life they could lead. so instead, they soldiered on.
the words almost seem out of fashion now, but "grace" and "class" - actually, they better never go out of style.
or else, we're all doomed.
Yes, great point. Don't know how I forgot her but thanks for mentioning. The number of gigantic things she accomplished, both athletically and socially/politically in a very short period of time is mind-boggling.
It's a long listen, but I think well worth it. Taylor brings in the director of biomechanics at P3 and a neuroscientist to have informed discussions about their specialties, and breaks down athleticism into three categories: 1) hard athleticism, i.e. the combine measurables, 2) soft athleticism, i.e. hand-eye coordination, proprioception, and the less measurable sensory aspects of athleticism, and 3) cognitive athleticism, the mental piece. It's a thing I've been curious about for a while and wished the soft athleticism/mental parts were more knowable, so the expert guests really helpfully flesh out the discussion.
and while we're at it, let's not forget that the integration of major league baseball (and college football too, fwiw) also represents the wholesale demolition of an entire class of black-owned/operated businesses.
"and same for Buck O'Neil, it seems. all three with every single goddam right to be bitter beyond imagination."
was surprised that the nanny let "goddam" through, but I think it speaks right to your point about the utter pervasiveness of the racism.
if "all" one had to endure was catcalls from ignoramuses in the stands during games, that would be awful - but at one level.
but off the field, and off the court, every single day, was so - as you put it so well in your own post - "shitty."
it's a significant part of the cultural history.
Buck O'Neil is special in that way, managing to squeeze every good moment out of a day, even when the days didn't have one -- but Buck is unique. More common is the simmering lifelong resentment that drove Josh Gibson to drink himself to death, that shortened Robinson's life, that Russell and Bob Gibson carried with them to their graves. I always feel like saying these men handled their hardships with grace, or however you want to put it, sanitizes the "hardships" part. These men were gods, trapped in the Hell that was the America of their time, and no amount of plaques will make up for the reckoning that never came.
Even in his passing, I still ran into stories about how Russell was mean to X or wouldn't sign something for Y. Russell was a god, and he deserved so much better than decades of cultural trauma.
not at all.
was more for a 'drive-by' who might misunderstand....
I don't follow the NBA closely anymore, so I have nothing intelligent to contribute on what the Celtics or the Nets or the Lakers or really any team should do. I have found it intriguing how many young NBA fans love love love the 1990s NBA, which was my milieu. and we got 1000x more access than writers get today.
Commissioner Stern was still growing the product, and back then, the beat guys and columnists getting to know the players and coaches well contributed to better writing - and, Stern found, a more engaged fan base because the players weren't just guys on a cardboard Topps card anymore.
have enjoyed the other reminiscences here as well....
Cool. You called me a "jackass" on this thread in like 2016 or so. Haha. I was snarky with you first, though.
As to what Menckel said, I would make a distinction between "Welcomed" and "People sometimes really not liking what you have to say and/or how you say it about certain topics." I am not a big Menckel fan, and I am sure that that lack of fandom is mutual. But he or anyone else can and should post here if s/he wants to talk NBA, and there is always the ignore user option if somebody seriously gets on your nerves. And yes, Menckel's posts about Russell and other historically significant/pioneer athletes have added to the conversation.
what's that thing you like to say? Something about how in general, people get treated how they deserve on this board ...
I am teasing, but I have always generally found it to be true.
I'd say most of the time, yeah.
well, that's the thing - not sure if it's a virtue or a fault, but I couldn't recall any topic that might be a favorite of yours, or almost about anybody else's. I don't know if we have directly clashed, or if you prefer to stay on the sidelines but you have sided with others. and I don't really care, other than admitted confusion from why what I believe is an innocuous post releases some of the BBTF hounds. and unfortunately it seems rare when a multi-person piling on of someone in that way leads other posters to say, "whoa, maybe we can put the brakes on here."
I remember back a number of years ago when some posters would get riled up because I would quote an earlier post, but not bother identifying who had posted it or when.
to me, who cares who posted it? the point may have merit or it may not. but why does it matter who posted it?
yet apparently the responses to the exact same comment may vary quite a bit depending on who posted it. that makes zero sense to me.
now, my approach on this, I think, is a very minority position here - and hell, on the internet in general.
that ability to keep mental track of the posting history of anonymous people, and to maintain emotional storage of pro and con about posters over multiple years, strikes me as - well, exhausting.
none of us can claim great pride in every single one of their comments over the years, obviously. but I don't believe that not accepting getting #### on by other posters means that more wrath is thus justified.
I don't want to mess with anybody here. maybe that's something we can come to agreement about all around?
or, since I gave up on communications about anything with a political tinge 18 to 24 months ago, can the statute of limitations expire on old grudges as I just post about baseball or basketball or football? I don't think that's an unreasonable ask.
'if dave chapelle can say the n-word in public, why can't i?'
My bias is well known, but I think you should just play small internationally. If you have KD, LeBron and Draymond, you don't need a traditional C. If you feel like you absolutely need a slightly bigger guy, then you take Bam.
Checkmate, Barkley.
I don't think it's Mobley's time quite yet, but he's probably the answer in a year or two.
i think you have to start with towns. i know he's not a proven winner, but the skillset speaks for itself.
after that, you probably need a more physical banger like steven adams, for the serbia/croatia/spain/france/australia matchups.
and then, maybe you take a flier on a younger center like deandre ayton or chris boucher or jahlil okafor.
I actually think Brook Lopez would have been a reasonable big for the Olympic team in the last 4 years. He may not be quite good enough anymore, but he's respectable from 3, can bang with anyone, and is an elite rim protector. Not a starter necessarily but that provides a lot of matchup versatility.
Are any of those guys even eligible?
I think you start with Al Horford, who can spread the floor and lead the defense as a versatile frontcourt stopper. He's shown that he still has a lot left in the tank.
After that, I'd add an efficient rim runner like Dwight Powell or Brandon Clarke.
Finally, bring in Poeltl or Clint Capela as a true rim protector to combat the teams that really excel at scoring in the paint.
Maybe Team USA should reach out to Gobert or Pau Gasol and see if either of them are available. They both have a great track record in international play.
Towns was born in New Jersey, so I am fairly certain he is eligible, he just has historically preferred to play for The Dominican.
Assuming a trade, what organization is most likely to let Durant be the GM? Phoenix and Miami would be unlikely to do that. It's easy to see him getting onto a winning team, as he did in Golden State, but hard to see him getting into a situation where he'll be content 24 months from now (he longed to get out of Golden State after a couple seasons, setting up that awkward third season).
Miami and Phoenix have established coaches and GMs. (Riley wouldn't fire Spo for LeBron.) Durant is said to love Monty Williams, but he was said to love Steve Nash.
This doesn't even get into where Kyrie will be playing this season, or where he'll be playing once his contract ends. Is anyone going to want both of these guys on the same roster again? It's clear that Tsai does not.
toronto.
charlotte.
the knicks.
chicago.
boston.
memphis.
dallas.
new orleans.
portland.
san antonio (if pop is on the way out, maybe they find a way to send him out with a bang)
Omaha.
Springfield (no, the other one).
Sante Fe.
(I assume we're just listing cities?)
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