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Friday, April 15, 2022

2022 NBA Playoffs thread

I estimate the NBA thread only had 10-12 years of content so we’re in reruns already.

Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: April 15, 2022 at 11:59 AM | 4354 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
Tags: narratives, nba, off-topic, playoffs

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4101. tell me when i'm telling 57i66135 Posted: August 09, 2022 at 02:34 PM (#6090864)

I think this thread is an example of how a presumption of good faith by a small group of people can keep one of these semi-anonymous internet communities healthy over the long term

4102. jmurph Posted: August 09, 2022 at 02:36 PM (#6090865)

I gotta be honest sometimes I need a decoder ring.

4103. jmurph Posted: August 09, 2022 at 02:39 PM (#6090866)

Truthfully I think some of the historically terrible franchises would talk themselves into it if Durant/Kyrie were already on the team, but that's a much different thing than actively trading for it after these reports have become public.

4104. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 09, 2022 at 02:59 PM (#6090868)

I am glad my long-term terrible team already shot their shot and are basically immune from Durant and Kyrie temptation.

4105. PJ Martinez Posted: August 09, 2022 at 03:00 PM (#6090869)

The question was "Assuming a trade, what organization is most likely to let Durant be the GM?" And the first team listed in 4097 is Toronto, which employs perhaps the most highly esteemed president of basketball operations in the league (not to mention one of the most highly paid). That doesn't seem like a very serious answer.

4106. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: August 09, 2022 at 03:05 PM (#6090870)

The question was "Assuming a trade, what organization is most likely to let Durant be the GM?" And the first team listed in 4097 is Toronto, which employs perhaps the most highly esteemed president of basketball operations in the league (not to mention one of the most highly paid). That doesn't seem like a very serious answer.

I don't think that's the right question, though. Durant wants to be treated as a partner. The more that he respects the other party, the more he will cede to that person. Like with a lot of areas of life, trust is earned.

Right or wrong, Durant doesn't trust Marks anymore. (And honestly, the Nets have had a pretty brutally bad offseason.)

I wouldn't fire Marks for Durant, but I also don't think Durant wants to "be the GM".

4107. PJ Martinez Posted: August 09, 2022 at 03:10 PM (#6090873)

See, that's a serious answer! And I think probably basically correct. Although it seems worth noting that one of the things that may have cost Marks et al Durant's respect is how they treated Irving, and I tend to think Irving is the one who should lose respect there. Other things that may have cost them Durant's respect: playing Jarrett Allen instead of DeAndre Jordan and hiring the coach that Irving and Durant wanted who it turns out wanted to do things differently than Irving and Durant.

Now, we don't have perfect knowledge of any of this, so maybe Durant wanted or wants different things. But it's possible that winning Durant's respect is at least partly at odds with putting together a stable, contending basketball team.

4108. Fourth True Outcome Posted: August 09, 2022 at 03:13 PM (#6090874)

And honestly, the Nets have had a pretty brutally bad offseason

Sure, but in large part because KD hamstrung them. The Nets did treat KD and Kyrie as partners in a way no one but LeBron has gotten before, and in return Kyrie torched their season with KD backing him to the hilt. If trust is earned how does that not matter?

4109. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: August 09, 2022 at 03:31 PM (#6090879)

But it's possible that winning Durant's respect is at least partly at odds with putting together a stable, contending basketball team.

Totally. Literally every guy who gets this level of treatment (Kobe and LeBron for starters) have shown themselves to be bad at evaluating basketball talent. Even Steph and Draymond were allegedly lobbying to keep Avery Bradley over GPII, which would have been disastrous.

Sure, but in large part because KD hamstrung them. The Nets did treat KD and Kyrie as partners in a way no one but LeBron has gotten before, and in return Kyrie torched their season with KD backing him to the hilt. If trust is earned how does that not matter?

I think it absolutely matters, and as I said, I wouldn't fire Marks for Durant. I think the Nets should trade Kyrie and Durant and move on, in part because they seem to be a package deal for the Nets only, and Kyrie is not worth the headache. Even if they keep both, I think the Nets aren't a real contender.

Honestly, all the drama is potentially a blessing in disguise for the Nets in terms of being able to get off Durant when he is still at close to peak value. Durant has averaged 45 games the last two years!!!

4110. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 09, 2022 at 04:00 PM (#6090886)

I think a motivated and healthy KD and KI (with the rest of the team) all playing close to a full season would be cham[pionship contender level. That will never happen, of course, but if it did I think the Nets would be a real contender.

4111. Fourth True Outcome Posted: August 09, 2022 at 04:19 PM (#6090893)

I think a motivated and healthy KD and KI (with the rest of the team) all playing close to a full season would be championship contender level.

I agree with this, and have been assuming the Nets are behaving as they have been because they do too. If they think KD and Kyrie will show up and play hard, and if they are willing to resign Kyrie if he plays a normal season for them (admittedly two large ifs), then not budging on their huge KD trade demands makes some sense. If no team is willing to truly break the bank for KD and you think you can still get full KD on court, running it back may well be their best option if they can ride out the press maelstrom.

4112. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: August 09, 2022 at 05:01 PM (#6090902)

I just don't think that's realistic. The closest parallel the Nets are hoping to achieve is probably something like the Kobe trade request in 2007. However, that request was because of the on-court results, not because of personality conflicts.

The history of these superstar trade requests is that they happen, you get bad value, and that's just the way it works.

4113. Fourth True Outcome Posted: August 09, 2022 at 05:08 PM (#6090906)

Sure, that's absolutely the history of them, but historically these demands also don't come when players have four years left on their contracts. This is a pretty sui generis situation in a bunch of ways, and the Nets contractually have pretty abnormal leverage should they choose to not acquiesce. I'm not really rooting for any outcome in particular, really, but am finding the whole deal pretty fascinating for how out of the ordinary it is. If KD had one year left on the contract he'd already be gone for a somewhat underwhelming return, but if bad value is the best they can get for trading KD, I really think they might risk keeping him and seeing if he has the stomach to pull a Simmons.

4114. Fourth True Outcome Posted: August 09, 2022 at 05:16 PM (#6090908)

Also, and pretty crucially in my (again, entirely uninformed) read of the situation, it seems like Tsai and co are good and fed up with being jerked around by Kyrie and KD after bending over backwards to accommodate them. As they haven't already shipped him out to just be done with him, I'm assuming that means they're willing to engage in the brinksmanship of telling him to shut up, show up, and play ball. But we're deep in uncharted waters, and it's fascinating to be a disinterested observer.

Edit: the only analogous demand-and-trade I can recall off the top of my head is Paul George asking out of OKC to pair up with Kawhi, and OKC got SGA, four unprotected first round picks, one lottery-protected frp, and two pick swaps. I'm sure the Nets would give up Durant for a similar package, but no rumored package has come close to that.

4115. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: August 09, 2022 at 05:50 PM (#6090914)

KD doesn't have to pull a Ben Simmons, though.

All he has to do is pull a Vince Carter, and he can coordinate with Kyrie to do the same thing. Can't practice today, coach, my hamstring feels tight. Can't play more than 30 minutes, on the advice of my doctor.

The Nets just don't have any leverage.

4116. Fourth True Outcome Posted: August 09, 2022 at 05:57 PM (#6090916)

The Nets just don't have any leverage.

That's all true, but I guess my counterargument is that KD has no leverage either. Given the length of his current contract and the lukewarm offers it seems the market has settled on this offseason, would sitting on KD for a season harm the return at all? He's 33, but the whole idea of KD is that he'll have that jumpshot, length, and brain forever, so trading for him at 34 doesn't seem that different. The Nets have no leverage to make him commit to the team, but KD has no leverage to force a trade now, and things to my mind are lined up in such a way that the Nets have some real incentives to not rush it just to do something. They don't even really need to make a move to protect their reputation among players, as this is both a weird situation and one where whatever hit they take for things souring with Kyrie/KD has largely already happened.

I dunno, you may well be right and we may see KD traded shortly before the season, or even shortly into it, but I find it easy to imagine that we also might find out that the Nets are perfectly willing to tell KD to either show up or stay home but that they'll trade him as soon as they get an offer they like and not one second prior.

4117. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: August 09, 2022 at 06:50 PM (#6090930)

That's all true, but I guess my counterargument is that KD has no leverage either.

Joe Tsai doesn't want to pay the tax (and they're pretty deep in the tax) for a lottery team.

Edit: their current estimated luxury tax bill is 90 million.

4118. rr: over-entitled starf@ck3r Posted: August 09, 2022 at 06:51 PM (#6090931)

but I find it easy to imagine that we also might find out that the Nets are perfectly willing to tell KD to either show up or stay home but that they'll trade him as soon as they get an offer they like and not one second prior.

Perhaps, but I don't think this is really how the modern NBA works, even though as you point out, Durant's contract is not up. I also don't think it is in Brooklyn's interest to keep Durant around in an uncertain attempt to drive up the price, if he wants out, as he apparently does.

While Irving draws more attention for strangeness with the flat earth and vaxx stuff, Durant is, in a different way, kind of a strange guy too, IMO.

Totally. Literally every guy who gets this level of treatment (Kobe and LeBron for starters) have shown themselves to be bad at evaluating basketball talent. Even Steph and Draymond were allegedly lobbying to keep Avery Bradley over GPII, which would have been disastrous

Yes, and you will recall that I thought James's fingerprints were all over last year's group of FAs. This year's group, which is a bunch of guys in their 20s who address some basic roster needs, seems more like Pelinka/Ham to me.

The other side of that ofc is the Irving stuff, which is in part James-driven.

4119. . . . . . . Posted: August 09, 2022 at 08:14 PM (#6090947)

FWIW, I totally disagree with tshipman's take, from a sports business/law perspective. Lets assume, for the sake of argument, that Joe Tsai is a homo economicus (and I've met him a couple of times, and I don't think he is). What distinguishes this case from those past cases is that the Nets basically have no hope of contention for years, even if they trade KD/KI for the best available offers. So while the past teams weren't willing to take on a multi-year fight with their biggest star; here, having the fight isn't really worse for the Nets than terrible irrelevance (and has the upside of maybe forcing KD/KI to fold).

tshipman suggests that KD/KI can pull the "ow, my hammy" stunt. Well, maybe. But that also exposes them to legal liability - its fraud. And just speculating, but KD/KI are both the sort of dumb ##### who I would love to do some discovery on. One stupid text or email and they're ######. Do they strike you as the sort of guys who are strictly sanitary with what they put in writing?

Last year, folks in this thread said Morey would have to crack and trade Simmons for pennies, and he didn't - he essentially fought Simmons to a draw. And by contrast, the Sixers' position was way weaker: they were on the clock with Embiid's prime and really couldn't afford to punt a season.

PS, if you think Tsai is paying the full tax if his two stars do a sick-out and they're litigating, then I want some of that Bill Walton tobacco you're smokin.

4120. tell me when i'm telling 57i66135 Posted: August 09, 2022 at 09:31 PM (#6090978)

tshipman suggests that KD/KI can pull the "ow, my hammy" stunt. Well, maybe. But that also exposes them to legal liability - its fraud. And just speculating, but KD/KI are both the sort of dumb ##### who I would love to do some discovery on. One stupid text or email and they're ######. Do they strike you as the sort of guys who are strictly sanitary with what they put in writing?

it wasn't that long ago that kyrie "threatened" to have knee surgery if cleveland didn't trade him.

4121. . . . . . . Posted: August 09, 2022 at 09:43 PM (#6090982)

it wasn't that long ago that kyrie "threatened" to have knee surgery if cleveland didn't trade him.

Joe Tsai isn't Comic Sans Gilbert.

4122. Moeball Posted: August 09, 2022 at 10:34 PM (#6090994)

#4106 "The more he respects the other party, the more he will cede to that person."

I can only conclude KD had very little respect for Steve Kerr.

4123. jmurph Posted: August 10, 2022 at 03:06 PM (#6091080)

From Ian Begley via an aggregator (RealGM):

The Sixers would have to include Tyrese Maxey in a trade for Durant along with some combination of Tobias Harris, Matisse Thybulle and other assets. The Sixers already sent a number of assets to the Nets as part of the James Harden trade.

Reassembling the Sixers in Brooklyn with Kyrie in place of Embiid seems like an excellent idea.

4124. tell me when i'm telling 57i66135 Posted: August 10, 2022 at 03:17 PM (#6091084)

Reassembling the Sixers in Brooklyn with Kyrie in place of Embiid seems like an excellent idea.

can confirm.

4125. TFTIO was writing C programs in the '90s Posted: August 10, 2022 at 09:07 PM (#6091167)

what are the hell

4126. tell me when i'm telling 57i66135 Posted: August 11, 2022 at 12:23 AM (#6091213)

what are the hell

right....

4127. jmurph Posted: August 11, 2022 at 11:44 AM (#6091260)

Sort of arbitrary but still pretty cool:

Kirk Goldsberry @kirkgoldsberry
141 NBA Players have played at least 1,000 games.

Only 3 of them have won more than 70% of the time:
Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, and Manu Ginobili.

(More players in the graphic in the tweet.)

4128. aberg Posted: August 11, 2022 at 12:18 PM (#6091273)

Durant is, in a different way, kind of a strange guy too, IMO.

KD/KI are both the sort of dumb ##### who I would love to do some discovery on

I don't know exactly what word I would use to describe KD's intelligence. I'm probably not qualified to put any name on it. But I do think there are enough data points to say that his convictions aren't very sticky and he's willing to express strongly held beliefs that contradict strongly held beliefs that he previously expressed. This trend goes back to OKC, where he changed his mind about wanting to talk about his free agency or not every few weeks and then complained when reporters asked him questions about what he already said.

One other element is that I suspect Tsai is getting some quiet pressure from other owners and front offices not to set a precedent that to cave in on an entire org reboot for a guy who picked the org and just signed up to stay on for four more years. Other players, coaches, and execs have to be watching, and I'd be surprised if Silver hadn't talked to Tsai about the impact it would have if he gives Durant all or most of what he wants. Not sure if that messaging will amount to anything, but it's another variable.

4129. asinwreck Posted: August 11, 2022 at 01:51 PM (#6091290)

I suspect Tsai is getting some quiet pressure from other owners and front offices not to set a precedent that to cave in on an entire org reboot for a guy who picked the org and just signed up to stay on for four more years.

Is there anything bigger than this that NBA owners want to address in the next collective bargaining agreement? My guess is no. (Not sure what they'd do that would actually safeguard their position, but keep this conflict in mind when they start leaking proposals through Woj.)

4130. aberg Posted: August 11, 2022 at 01:55 PM (#6091291)

Is there anything bigger than this that NBA owners want to address in the next collective bargaining agreement? My guess is no. (Not sure what they'd do that would actually safeguard their position, but keep this conflict in mind when they start leaking proposals through Woj.)

It's a great question and I have yet to hear any plausible proposals for how to discourage players from privately agitating for trades.

4131. tell me when i'm telling 57i66135 Posted: August 11, 2022 at 02:44 PM (#6091302)

Ky Carlin @Ky_Carlin
James Harden and Kevin Durant are working out together in Barcelona #Sixers pic.twitter.com/ByoPACUSQb

wooooooo. revenge.

4132. Fourth True Outcome Posted: August 11, 2022 at 03:00 PM (#6091304)

I do think there are enough data points to say that his convictions aren't very sticky and he's willing to express strongly held beliefs that contradict strongly held beliefs that he previously expressed. This trend goes back to OKC, where he changed his mind about wanting to talk about his free agency or not every few weeks and then complained when reporters asked him questions about what he already said.

My take is slightly different: I think KD has stuck to his convictions, but they seem to primarily be loyalty to his people in ways that aren't directly related to basketball results. He seems to be feuding with the Nets because he feels they weren't loyal enough to Kyrie (and, according to reports, an asst coach he was close to who was fired without KD's input), he lobbied hard for washed DeAndre Jordan over Jarrett Allen, and he's still tight with Harden despite Harden noping out of Brooklyn last season (I guess Harden wasn't obligated to be loyal to Kyrie like the Nets are in KD's book).

I'm not saying it's entirely coherent; I think this kind of blind interpersonal loyalty is dumb when it overlaps with your professional life and career for exactly the reasons things have gone poorly for KD in the court of public opinion over the last few months, but I don't think he's stupid or blowing in the wind either, exactly. I think he's loyal to people in his personal circle over his basketball team, and for some reason expects the rest of the world to go along with it. He's good enough that it worked for quite a while, though his reputation has suffered; unclear if it will work out for him this time.

4133. Fourth True Outcome Posted: August 11, 2022 at 03:29 PM (#6091314)

ESPN reporting that the NBA will retire Bill Russell's number league-wide. Players currently wearing 6 will be allowed to keep wearing it but no one else.

4134. kubiwan Posted: August 11, 2022 at 04:09 PM (#6091329)

Right or wrong, Durant doesn't trust Marks anymore.

My initial take when I heard that Durant demanded Marks and Nash be fired was "If Tsai can negotiate him down to firing only Nash, he should do it".

What are people's takes on Nash as a coach? I have regarded him as "Meh" as best but that is not based on anything rigorous whatsoever...

4135. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: August 11, 2022 at 05:30 PM (#6091355)

Hey guys, when you’re ready to Break free from the media’s control over your subconscious thoughts and emotions, meet me on One of my platforms and let’s chop it up.

We the A11Even tribe love our conversations about the TRUTH and what is truly happening.
Welcome to the
PARADIGM SHIFT♾

4136. aberg Posted: August 11, 2022 at 05:37 PM (#6091357)

What are people's takes on Nash as a coach? I have regarded him as "Meh" as best but that is not based on anything rigorous whatsoever...

Meh trending toward ugh. Definitely not ooh.

4137. asinwreck Posted: August 11, 2022 at 05:40 PM (#6091358)

The point of Nash was to have someone the superstars would play for. Not sure the point of him otherwise.

The Nets' cycling through assistant coaches would be grist for a good oral history of 2020-2022, if the folks involved wanted to go on the record.

4138. Fourth True Outcome Posted: August 11, 2022 at 05:49 PM (#6091361)

I, for one, think it is high time in my own life to Break free from the media's control over my subconscious thoughts and emotions and instead let tship and Kyrie shepherd them. Time to open my third eye!

I'm not sure there's enough data to really evaluate Nash as a coach, given what a mess Brooklyn has been throughout his tenure, but there hasn't really been any indication he's a coach worth fighting for.

4139. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: August 11, 2022 at 06:16 PM (#6091365)

I think Nash has been pretty close to bottom 5 as an NBA coach. That is to say that he isn't an obvious embarrassment, but it would be difficult to describe what he brings as a positive.

4140. rr: over-entitled starf@ck3r Posted: August 11, 2022 at 09:53 PM (#6091382)

I have yet to hear any plausible proposals for how to discourage players from privately agitating for trades.

I don't think there is one, and I don't think there should be. Tsai ofc can tell Durant that the Nets are not going to trade him and then act accordingly, but even if he does that, ultimately, in many ways, the power in the NBA does not rest with the titans of business who own the teams but instead with the guys who are the very best at playing the game, especially now that the NBA has free agency. James ofc is the guy who conducts himself most openly along these lines.

That said, Durant wanting out of Brooklyn at this juncture suggests to me-again-that he is one of those people who will always be somewhat discontented, looking for something else, etc., at least, in his case, professionally. Internet psychoanalysis is ofc inherently lame so people can reject it, but Durant has never really been in what we call a "bad" team situation--yet he never seems like he is in the "right place." There is nothing wrong with being this way, but that, combined with his prodigious talent, does make him kind of a pain in the ass if you are rooting for the team he is on.

4141. rr: over-entitled starf@ck3r Posted: August 11, 2022 at 10:08 PM (#6091383)

"All NBA players will wear a commemorative patch on the right shoulder of their jerseys, and every NBA court will display a clover-shaped logo with the No. 6 on the sideline near the scorer’s table," the league wrote in a statement. "The Celtics, for whom Russell played his entire career and coached, will have a separate and unique recognition for him on their uniforms, to be announced soon."

Russell becomes just the third player across the NBA, NHL, MLB and NFL to have his number retired league wide, joining Wayne Gretzky (No. 99) in hockey and Jackie Robinson (No. 42) in baseball.

link

4142. Moeball Posted: August 13, 2022 at 12:42 PM (#6091463)

RE: retiring #6 - this may have been done years ago, I don't recall, but have you ever done a listing of the greatest players ever to wear certain uni #s? Might provide some interesting results, especially as some players have worn multiple #s in their career. BTW, is that just an NBA thing to consciously change your # every few years? I don't seem to recall players in other sports doing that to the same degree.

4143. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: August 13, 2022 at 02:12 PM (#6091476)

The weird thing about LeBron is that he may end his career as the GOAT, and yet will not have the best career with either of his two main numbers.

4144. tell me when i'm telling 57i66135 Posted: August 13, 2022 at 03:13 PM (#6091479)

Russell becomes just the third player across the NBA, NHL, MLB and NFL to have his number retired league wide, joining Wayne Gretzky (No. 99) in hockey and Jackie Robinson (No. 42) in baseball.

one of these things is not like the others....

4145. rr: over-entitled starf@ck3r Posted: August 13, 2022 at 03:18 PM (#6091480)

BTW, is that just an NBA thing to consciously change your # every few years?

James and Bryant ofc both do/did it, but I don't recall many other guys, big names or otherwise, doing it. Seems like most big-name guys keep the same number. Garnett went to 5 in Boston because Bill Sharman was 21 and they had retired it. Davis went to 3 here because James had 23.

re 4143

James was 23 in high school and carried that over to the NBA. I am sure that there was some reason that he switched to 6 (maybe it did have to do with Jordan) but I don't recall what it was.

4146. PJ Martinez Posted: August 13, 2022 at 03:22 PM (#6091481)

LeBron changed to 6 because Miami had retired 23 for Jordan, right?

Miami retiring 23 for Jordan remains one of the weirder number retirements in all of sports.

4147. rr: over-entitled starf@ck3r Posted: August 13, 2022 at 03:31 PM (#6091482)

4146

Oh yeah, I think so. And yeah, that is super weird.

4148. tell me when i'm telling 57i66135 Posted: August 13, 2022 at 03:46 PM (#6091483)

LeBron changed to 6 because Miami had retired 23 for Jordan, right?

Miami retiring 23 for Jordan remains one of the weirder number retirements in all of sports.

it's worse than you think (from 2009):

"I just think what Michael Jordan has done for the game has to be recognized some way soon," said James, who has worn 23 since he was a high school sophomore. "There would be no LeBron James, no Kobe Bryant, no Dwyane Wade if there wasn't Michael Jordan first.

"He can't get the logo [Hall of Famer Jerry West's silhouette adorns the NBA's logo], and if he can't, something has to be done. I feel like no NBA player should wear 23. I'm starting a petition, and I've got to get everyone in the NBA to sign it. Now, if I'm not going to wear No. 23, then nobody else should be able to wear it."

4149. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: August 13, 2022 at 05:31 PM (#6091489)

The only other superstars I can think that changed numbers were also because their old number was blocked. Shaq to the Lakers (33 was Kareem), and Barkley to the rockets (34 was Olajuwon). Jason Kidd changed at least once, going from #5 elsewhere to #2 in Dallas. Not sure about those circumstances

4150. rr: over-entitled starf@ck3r Posted: August 13, 2022 at 05:56 PM (#6091491)

The NBA announced the national TV schedule today:

12.25:
ATL@NY
BOS@MIL
GS@PHX
BKN@LAL
DAL@UTA

Opening Night 10.19:
BKN@MIL
GS@LAL

4151. Fourth True Outcome Posted: August 13, 2022 at 06:42 PM (#6091494)

Didn't the whole voluntary number change thing start with MJ's 45 interlude? I assume that's also a lot of why Kobe and LBJ did it.

4152. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: August 13, 2022 at 06:48 PM (#6091496)

I always thought it had to do with jersey sales.

4153. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: August 13, 2022 at 07:09 PM (#6091499)

Whoops, I goofed above. 33 was Shaq’s college number, but he wore #32 with Orlando.

4154. Moeball Posted: August 14, 2022 at 02:26 PM (#6091578)

#4151 Well, of course, Kobe and LBJ spent much of their careers emulating Michael, so why should this be any different?

4155. rr: over-entitled starf@ck3r Posted: August 14, 2022 at 09:53 PM (#6091664)

So I may have looked at the wrong 12/25 schedule. This one looks better and more like what they should do.

Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania
· 2h

Sources: NBA’s 2022 Christmas Day schedule:

Bucks at Celtics
76ers at Knicks
Suns at Nuggets
Lakers at Mavericks
Grizzlies at Warriors

4156. Athletic Supporter's aunt's sorry like Aziz Posted: August 14, 2022 at 11:40 PM (#6091671)

I'm a big fan of those choices.

4157. Fourth True Outcome Posted: August 15, 2022 at 12:15 AM (#6091673)

Yeah, that's a great slate of games.

4158. Mike A Posted: August 15, 2022 at 12:48 AM (#6091675)

Was hoping they'd let the Hawks/Knicks run it back, since the Hawks were missing eight safety-and-protocol players (including Trae) for last year's game. But it was not meant to be.

Since the Hawks get a Christmas Day game every 32 years, I'll be looking forward to 2053.

4159. rr: over-entitled starf@ck3r Posted: August 15, 2022 at 12:54 AM (#6091676)

I copied last year's games in the original post. Should've checked the source; got it off a no-name Twitter account and didn't look it up. Sorry.

One thing that made me look again was Brooklyn; if they do trade Durant/Irving, that is not the kind of team that the league puts on the 12.25 schedule.

4160. tell me when i'm telling 57i66135 Posted: August 15, 2022 at 12:59 AM (#6091677)

the suns should be playing in PHI on christmas.

4161. jmurph Posted: August 15, 2022 at 09:27 AM (#6091690)

Bucks at Celtics
76ers at Knicks
Suns at Nuggets
Lakers at Mavericks
Grizzlies at Warriors

Interesting mix of teams but odd matchups. And why no Heat? Heat-Celtics would be an obvious choice. I'm possibly blanking on this, but is there recent compelling history with Sixers-Knicks, Lakers-Mavs, or Suns-Nuggets?

4162. rr: over-entitled starf@ck3r Posted: August 15, 2022 at 02:07 PM (#6091721)

Over the last 15-20 years or so, I think the NBA has very deliberately used Christmas to showcase stars throughout the day, rather than rivalries. These games have the league's Top 2 old stars (James and Curry), the top 3 guys in the MVP voting, and the newish/new stars (Doncic, Tatum, Booker, and Morant). The only two guys who finished in the Top 10 in the MVP voting (There were 12 guys; there was a 3-way tie for 10th) who are not playing in these games are DeRozan and Durant (both T10 in the MVP voting with James). I think the league for obvious reasons sees Christmas as a day to focus on casuals.

Butler is obviously a pretty big star in his own right, but he is not next-level famous like James and Curry.

I have seen a few people bittching on Twitter about the Knicks almost always having a spot on the Christmas. As well as the NY/MSG angle, it is a tradition thing, sort of like the Detroit Lions always playing on Thanksgiving.

4163. tell me when i'm telling 57i66135 Posted: August 15, 2022 at 07:41 PM (#6091780)

Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn
ESPN Sources: Ben Simmons and the Philadelphia 76ers have reached a settlement agreement on the grievance the All-Star guard filed to recoup a portion of the nearly $20 million withheld him as a result of his failure to play games in the 2021-2022 season. Story soon.

Anthony Chiang @Anthony_Chiang
Heat forward and captain Udonis Haslem still noncommittal on 20th season: ‘I go back and forth’ miamiherald.com/sports/nba/mia… Haslem on why his thinking has changed a bit, Kyle Lowry and how he has remained connected to the Heat's young players

Keith Smith @KeithSmithNBA
By popular request, here are some of the best remaining NBA FAs: PG D. Schroder F. Jackson DJ Augustin I. Thomas L. Williams R. Rondo SG C. Sexton (R) A. Bradley SF A. Iguodala J. Nwora (R) PF M. Harrell B. Griffin C D. Cousins L. Aldridge H. Whiteside D. Howard T. Thompson

4164. asinwreck Posted: August 21, 2022 at 02:45 PM (#6092476)

Shams Charania @ShamsCharania Udonis Haslem announces at his youth camp that he will sign a new deal with the Miami Heat and return for the 20th season of his NBA career.

The closest comp in pro sports I can think of is Ted Lyons, who focused on the occasional Sunday start for the White Sox as he hit 40. That said, Lyons still logged more active time than Haslem has in the past six years. Maybe he'd have a more similar career had he not missed his early 40s due to military service.

4165. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: August 21, 2022 at 03:54 PM (#6092483)

The closest comp in pro sports I can think of is Ted Lyons, who focused on the occasional Sunday start for the White Sox as he hit 40. That said, Lyons still logged more active time than Haslem has in the past six years.

Lyons was still REALLY GOOD at that point, though. He led the AL in ERA in 1942 at age 41.

4166. Athletic Supporter's aunt's sorry like Aziz Posted: August 22, 2022 at 01:49 AM (#6092549)

Aren't there a few very old backup quarterbacks who basically don't play and are there to impart wisdom? That feels pretty analogous.

4167. jmurph Posted: August 22, 2022 at 11:36 AM (#6092575)

Bleacher Report @BleacherReport
The Jazz want a "significant" upgrade from what the Knicks are currently offering for Donovan Mitchell, per @ShamsCharania

The Knicks have offered Evan Fournier, Obi Toppin and five first-round picks for Mitchell

4168. . . . . . . Posted: August 22, 2022 at 12:06 PM (#6092583)

Lyons was still REALLY GOOD at that point, though. He led the AL in ERA in 1942 at age 41.

Lyons even could hit a little into his 40s - he was just a case of a guy who aged slowly, as opposed to a Senior Statesman. I don't think there's a good analog for Udonis Haslem in other sports.

4169. Ithaca2323 Posted: August 22, 2022 at 04:55 PM (#6092636)

Aren't there a few very old backup quarterbacks who basically don't play and are there to impart wisdom? That feels pretty analogous.

This guy right here

Although the most classic case has to be Steve DeBerg, who came back from a 4-year retirement to serve as the 44-year old backup for the Atlanta Falcons. Forced to play in relief of the injured Chris Chandler for a game and a half, played horribly, got benched himself.

4170. DCA Posted: August 22, 2022 at 09:55 PM (#6092712)

The Knicks have offered Evan Fournier, Obi Toppin and five first-round picks for Mitchell

Per fanspo, that doesn't work. Knicks need to include more salary.

4171. Spivey Posted: August 22, 2022 at 10:04 PM (#6092714)

As with everything, details matter. Are those Knicks own picks going out into 2030 or the repackaging of the protected picks from other teams? If it's the former, they absolutely don't deserve more than that imo, and I don't think anyone can beat that offer.

4172. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: August 23, 2022 at 10:54 AM (#6092799)

4163, the only interesting players on that list are Sexton and Harrell. Everyone else is over-the-hill. If nobody offers Sexton a deal, he's still under contract with Cleveland for another season, right?

4173. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: August 23, 2022 at 10:58 AM (#6092800)

This guy right here

He's got a few seasons to go in order to reach Matt Schaub territory.

4174. asinwreck Posted: August 23, 2022 at 11:07 AM (#6092801)

It appears that Kevin Durant and the Nets have seen a marriage counselor and are staying together (for the time being, anyway).

4175. Fourth True Outcome Posted: August 23, 2022 at 12:38 PM (#6092822)

The funniest thing to have happen with the Nets would be for them to make a run to the ECF but not really gel interpersonally, right? Abject failure or complete success would be clear-cut, but there is a wide middle zone the Nets could land in that would leave things differently but no less murky next offseason. It shouldn't be boring, on-court or off. I'm glad I'm not a Nets fan right now, but it could of course all work out beautifully too. (Stranger things have happened, anyway...)

4176. Fourth True Outcome Posted: August 23, 2022 at 12:49 PM (#6092825)

I do wonder if KD getting stuck in Brooklyn because the Nets refused to accept a mediocre return, like Ben Simmons being made to wait for Harden asking out by Morey, is good for the players in the upcoming CBA. Maybe the fight is going to happen no matter what, but players with years left being able to set the terms of their trades would really seem to set the table for a nuclear reaction from ownership around contract requirements/guarantees/whatever ownership most wants to claw back. It's certainly good for the league ecosystem if players are expected to play out their deals broadly, I think. Let players do the LBJ 1+1 plan if they want the freedom to move around. (I guess there is two more seasons of potential drama between us and the CBA's expiration, of course, so who knows what will yet happen.)

4177. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: August 23, 2022 at 01:12 PM (#6092830)

I still love how wide open this is:

@KeithSmithNBA: New NBA title odds per @betonline_ag:

BOS 5/1
MIL 6/1
GSW 7/1
BKN/LAC 15/2
PHX 10/1
LAL 14/1
MIA/PHI 16/1
DEN 20/1
DAL 22/1
MEM 25/1
MIN 28/1
NOP 35/1
TOR 40/1
ATL 50/1
CHI 60/1
NYK 80/1
POR 100/1
CLE 125/1
SAC 150/1
CHA 200/1
UTA/WAS 250/1
DET/IND/OKC/ORL/SAS 500/1
HOU 1000/1

4178. Athletic Supporter's aunt's sorry like Aziz Posted: August 23, 2022 at 01:56 PM (#6092837)

Wow, really surprising to me that GSW is at 7/1. I would have expected more like 3/1 or so. Not saying it's wrong, but given history + the betting public that really surprises me.

4179. TFTIO was writing C programs in the '90s Posted: August 23, 2022 at 07:04 PM (#6092905)

The Lakers at 14:1 is bananas.

4180. GregF Posted: August 24, 2022 at 12:21 AM (#6092965)

What’s the expected likelihood that the Lakers package all their picks with Westbrook for a boost that gets them into the Clippers’ tier? (50/50 might not be terrible odds on some kind of trade, but with the Nets keeping Kyrie it’s hard to see what return would move the needle enough.)

4181. smileyy Posted: August 24, 2022 at 01:23 AM (#6092975)

Flags Fly Forever, and LeBron is starting to lose his immortality. I don't know if they need another "superstar", or a bunch of really good role players instead. But it probably takes a superstar to make the money work?

4182. rr: over-entitled starf@ck3r Posted: August 24, 2022 at 01:43 AM (#6092977)

that gets them into the Clippers’ tier

This may be accurate, but I would like to see Leonard actually suit up and play 50 games before saying the Clippers are fringe contenders.

Wow, really surprising to me that GSW is at 7/1. I would have expected more like 3/1 or so. Not saying it's wrong, but given history + the betting public that really surprises me.

Curry is not seen as being a guy like healthy James or Leonard, rightly or wrongly, and he will be 35 when the playoffs start.

4183. Spivey Posted: August 24, 2022 at 08:24 AM (#6092979)

I think the odds are generally good. Boston is the youngest, hungriest, and the team in the top group that improved the most. They should be slight favorites. All the other contenders are reasonably old and mostly all limited in what they can do to improve themselves midseason. Many are also injury prone.

4184. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 24, 2022 at 08:26 AM (#6092980)

I am just excited the Wolves are fringe contenders. They might even be a bit underrated, which goes against everything I know about the Wolves.

4185. TFTIO was writing C programs in the '90s Posted: August 24, 2022 at 09:16 AM (#6092981)

I think the Lakers are play-in fodder at best, and I don’t see what’s out there for two firsts that will meaningfully improve their chances. Even without Kawhi the Clippers are clearly better.

4186. DCA Posted: August 24, 2022 at 12:47 PM (#6093001)

Isn't the obvious Westbrook trade to Indy for McConnell, Hield, and Turner? Money's exactly even. Indy would buy out Westbrook of course, and just pocket the picks.

Spurs also have cap space to take on Westbrook without giving up anything important (e.g. Richardson and McDermott to LAL) and I really think that's a great place for Westbrook to land (both for the team and the player).

4187. DCA Posted: August 24, 2022 at 12:53 PM (#6093002)

At the odds in 4177, I think I'd be buying GSW, MIL, PHX, PHI, MEM, CLE.

The first five I think are serious contenders, and slightly underrated by the inclusion of teams that are not (eg BKN, LAL, DAL). Cleveland is not, but they are young and good and there's at least a 1% chance.

4188. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: August 24, 2022 at 01:52 PM (#6093009)

This season is weird.
The Celtics are reasonably uncomplicated as a contender (made finals last year, same team), but are built more around depth than top level talent compared to a typical favorite.
The Warriors are plausible, but turned over a lot of their core and are old.
The Clippers are theoretical favorites, but have huge injury questions and have been somewhat snakebite.
The Nets have star power, but dysfunction galore.
The Lakers are old AND dysfunctional.
The Bucks are good, but have questions.
The Nuggets have the talent, but maybe a fatal flaw in the playoffs.
Phoenix got exposed in their last game.
Dallas lost a lot of talent.
Memphis has some identity issues and are young.
Philly has issues if Harden isn't good anymore and Embiid is always hurt in the playoffs.

Every team has questions (Boston has the fewest), and the NBA typically has a more clear favorite.

4189. tell me when i'm telling 57i66135 Posted: August 24, 2022 at 02:20 PM (#6093016)

@KeithSmithNBA: New NBA title odds per @betonline_ag:

BOS 5/1
MIL 6/1
GSW 7/1
BKN/LAC 15/2
PHX 10/1
LAL 14/1
MIA/PHI 16/1
DEN 20/1
DAL 22/1
MEM 25/1
MIN 28/1
NOP 35/1
TOR 40/1
ATL 50/1
CHI 60/1
NYK 80/1
POR 100/1
CLE 125/1
SAC 150/1
CHA 200/1
UTA/WAS 250/1
DET/IND/OKC/ORL/SAS 500/1
HOU 1000/1

buy POR for the possibility of a midseason durant pickup.
buy TOR, CHI and MIA for same, and also: east.
buy DEN because they won 48 games despite two all-star caliber 25 year old starters disappearing for all of last season.

4190. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: August 24, 2022 at 02:44 PM (#6093023)

Apparently the memes about how Holmgren would explode after one drive from LeBron were maybe true??

https://mobile.twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1562506918962159616

4191. aberg Posted: August 24, 2022 at 03:37 PM (#6093041)

Holmgren was supposedly hurt at the Crawsover, which is Jamal Crawford's Seattle summer league. I've gone to some of the games in the past and it always brings in a few pros and top college guys, but it has never been popular enough that the small (3-4k college gym) venue was ever an issue.

This year, there were rumors that Lebron was going to show up about a week before the last round of games. Banchero, Holmgren, Murray, IT, and some other pretty big names were already set. After Lebron was confirmed, Tatum also said he was coming. I think there were another couple of big names. I know someone who lives in the neighborhood and said there were easily over a thousand people lined up at midnight the night before because there are no tickets and admission is first come/first served at the main door of the gym. There were reportedly over 4000 people in line, almost two miles long, well before doors opened at noon on Saturday. But when the doors actually opened, a huge crowd of people bum rushed the door, there was no crowd control, and no way to monitor who was there first. Most of the people who were there waiting the night before or early in the morning didn't get in at all. Then, the game got canceled midway through do to Holmgren getting hurt and (possibly) a wet floor in the gym.

Let's just bring back the Sonics already.

4192. rr: over-entitled starf@ck3r Posted: August 24, 2022 at 05:15 PM (#6093068)

I think the Lakers are play-in fodder at best, and I don’t see what’s out there for two firsts that will meaningfully improve their chances. Even without Kawhi the Clippers are clearly better.

This may be the case, but I think there are too many variables to make pronouncements like this in August.

Boston should be the slight betting favorite, but there are several teams that could conceivably win the championship, and I think there is a good chance that Durant and Irving get traded during the season.

4193. Athletic Supporter's aunt's sorry like Aziz Posted: August 24, 2022 at 05:27 PM (#6093071)

I honestly don't get the Clippers always appearing high on lists like this. I don't think we're seeing peak Kawhi again. George is a fine second banana but just that and has his own injury questions. They don't have any exciting young guys who could really pop, and the roster is filled with adequate journeymen.

Like, I get that they are a .500 team potentially adding Kawhi Leonard and more George but compared to the Lakers adding more James and Davis, they're taking the minutes of adequate journeymen not terribad players.

I just don't see it.

Memphis at 25/1 is another one that feels like a really good bet to me. It's very easy to see a scenario where Memphis breaks out and is the championship favorite by season's end. That's gotta be worth a 25/1 flyer.

4194. Fourth True Outcome Posted: August 24, 2022 at 06:03 PM (#6093081)

I honestly don't get the Clippers always appearing high on lists like this.

It's because it's an easy way to make money, isn't it? I can't imagine the people setting the line expect the Clips to be as good as those odds suggest, but they know they can take the money of people betting on Kawhi and PG13 at those odds.

I think Denver and Memphis jump out to me as the best bargains there, but I will of course be continuing with my boring tradition of not betting also.

4195. rr: over-entitled starf@ck3r Posted: August 24, 2022 at 06:28 PM (#6093088)

If Leonard and George can actually play most of the schedule and are available for postseason, then the Clippers will ofc be pretty dangerous. But I don't think that can be assumed, but I guess that you have to assume some things for betting purposes.

4196. rr: over-entitled starf@ck3r Posted: August 25, 2022 at 12:46 AM (#6093142)

Lakers set to acquire Patrick Beverly in trade with the Jazz, ESPN reports
Beverly is expected to be traded to the Los Angeles Lakers for Talen Horton-Tucker and Stanley Johnson as the two teams engage in advanced talks, according to ESPN's Adrian Wojnarowski. The former Wolves guard was traded to the Jazz this offseason in a mega trade involving star center Rudy Gobert where Minnesota also received four first-round picks. Keep it here as NBA experts and commentators weigh in on the trade news.

4197. TFTIO was writing C programs in the '90s Posted: August 25, 2022 at 08:09 AM (#6093156)

That’s a solid move for LAL, particularly if there’s a follow up move with the two firsts for a couple of starters. Bev/Hield/LBJ/AD/Turner, for instance.

4198. DCA Posted: August 25, 2022 at 08:11 AM (#6093157)

Ha, in 4186 I was going to also propose THT for PatBev, but the money didn't work. Hence Stanley Johnson.

4199. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: August 25, 2022 at 09:45 AM (#6093172)

I feel like you would have to have the Russ deal almost finished to do this deal, given the bad blood between Pat Bev and Westbrook.

That would make the Lakers' lineup something like:
Pg: Pat Bev
Sg: Buddy Hield
Sf: LeBron
Pf: Anthony Davis
C: Myles Turner

Well, I hate Beverly, one of the dirtiest players in the NBA. I guess this looks like a great team for the five games per season that they're going to be healthy. From a team building standpoint, rolling the dice on injury prone players makes sense due to the acquisition cost discount, but man those out years are going to be painful.

The Lakers go from like a 0.001% chance at a championship to like 0.5%. Is that worth it? Ehhh, not sure, but at least they understand the right goal.

4200. asinwreck Posted: August 25, 2022 at 09:46 AM (#6093174)

Russ has to love being on the same team as Beverly. I hope that the trade to Indiana doesn't happen and we get a reality series with this year's Lakers team.

That aside, the Lakers have effectively reversed their decision to keep THT over Alex Caruso. Whether Beverly can replace Caruso's defense remains to be seen, but he should be an improvement over what they threw out there last season.

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