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Monday, January 09, 2023

2023 NBA Regular Season Thread

I estimate that this new thread should have been posted 10-12 days ago, at least.

Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: January 09, 2023 at 11:55 AM | 1744 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
Tags: basketball, future first round picks, nba, off-topic

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401. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: February 05, 2023 at 08:31 PM (#6115866)

Chris Haynes
@ChrisBHaynes
Kyrie Irving is said to be “ecstatic” about the trade to Dallas Mavericks and “looking forward” to joining forces with Luka Dončić, a league source tells
@NBAonTNT
,
@BleacherReport
.

gary washburn
@GwashburnGlobe
Have been told that Kyrie is "ecstatic" about the trade, looking forward to playing for Brad Stevens and understand the #Celtics tradition.

wew lad

402. i don't vibrate on the frequency of the 57i66135 Posted: February 05, 2023 at 08:43 PM (#6115867)

LeBron James @KingJames
Maybe It’s Me

someone's a taylor swift-boater.

"i'll stare directly at the sun, but never in the mirror"

403. asinwreck Posted: February 05, 2023 at 09:00 PM (#6115868)

I was not expecting the Knicks to come back.

404. i don't vibrate on the frequency of the 57i66135 Posted: February 05, 2023 at 09:04 PM (#6115869)

it is kind of sad/funny/pathetic that dallas's scouting department throughout the doncic era has basically just been trawling the national enquirer.

news: "kristaps porzingis has been accused of sexual assault"

cuban: "excellent."

news: "kyrie irving tweets that 'jewish space lasers' are responsible for wildfires in california."

cuban: "good. good."

405. GregF Posted: February 05, 2023 at 09:48 PM (#6115870)

It’s been touched on in a couple of posts above, but it’s striking how this was the one possible Kyrie deal that doesn’t hugely raise his new team’s ceiling. Dinwiddie of course isn’t on Kyrie’s level, but he brings much of the same combination of shooting/shot creation/floor spacing to the table when his jumper is falling - and he showed in last year’s run that he can put it to effective use in the playoffs. So the Mavs traded a well-regarded 3 and D guy and a first for...a more reliable 2nd-option scorer, where that “more reliable” skillset is tied to Kyrie?

406. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: February 05, 2023 at 10:07 PM (#6115871)

Why would these Phoenix and Lakers offers get leaked here? I'm confused. Seems like only Brooklyn could know this stuff and not sure why they'd leak?

407. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: February 05, 2023 at 10:51 PM (#6115872)

Why would these Phoenix and Lakers offers get leaked here? I'm confused. Seems like only Brooklyn could know this stuff and not sure why they'd leak?

I don't think that Brooklyn was the source. Chris Haynes is the reporter, and if it were Brooklyn, it would have been Woj.

408. Athletic Supporter's restaurant with Ted Danson Posted: February 05, 2023 at 11:47 PM (#6115875)

This is probably not the deal I would have made as the Mavs, but it doesn't seem that likely to bite them and I definitely think this is better than not doing anything. And who knows what was out there.

Luka is a fairly unique player and I don't know if anyone really knows the optimal blueprint. The Mavs have tried stuff and should keep trying.

I felt kind of similarly about the Gobert trade (although I think I didn't post into that at the time). The price was crazy, but as far as on court, if it were right, the Wolfs would have been in great shape as nobody would have been in a good place to defend it as a novel type of team, and nobody else would have it duplicated.

I think trying new strategies is generally a good idea in a league where only one team wins the chip, as opposed to a team like say Portland, which is and has always just been Golden State but significantly worse.

409. jmurph Posted: February 06, 2023 at 07:39 AM (#6115880)

It’s been touched on in a couple of posts above, but it’s striking how this was the one possible Kyrie deal that doesn’t hugely raise his new team’s ceiling. Dinwiddie of course isn’t on Kyrie’s level, but he brings much of the same combination of shooting/shot creation/floor spacing to the table when his jumper is falling - and he showed in last year’s run that he can put it to effective use in the playoffs. So the Mavs traded a well-regarded 3 and D guy and a first for...a more reliable 2nd-option scorer, where that “more reliable” skillset is tied to Kyrie?

I think I'd quibble here to say that Kyrie is quite a bit better than Dinwiddie, though I get the overall point.

I just keep thinking about the Brunson stuff. If we assume Dallas is planning to keep Kyrie around after this season (and why would they trade for him if not?), it raises an obvious question: would you rather have Brunson, DFS, Dinwiddie, and the picks (or Brunson plus whatever this same trade package could have fetched elsewhere), or Kyrie and Christian Wood? I think Kyrie is clearly better than Brunson right now, but Brunson is also several years younger and, uhhhhh, quite a bit more reliable (setting aside the insanity of the last two seasons, Kyrie has ended around half the seasons of his career early due to injury).

410. jmurph Posted: February 06, 2023 at 07:55 AM (#6115881)

I don't think that Brooklyn was the source. Chris Haynes is the reporter, and if it were Brooklyn, it would have been Woj.

Ryan Bernardoni @dangercart
Did the Lakers leak their own fake offer, a fake counter offer, the idea that Tsai just didn’t want to deal with than, and then throw in that they heard the Suns had offered Chris Paul?

Or is it Kyrie’s camp, trying to present that he’s still Highly Sought After?

Seems to me Haynes usually gets stuff from players?

411. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: February 06, 2023 at 08:11 AM (#6115883)

Yeah I guess I agree it doesn't make sense for the Nets to leak this. But why would anyone? Doesn't seem the Lakers/Suns would want to. I guess Kyrie would want to to show he's, like said above, Highly Sought After, but does the player usually get all this information?

I know I'm over-thinking this and ultimately doesn't matter but it just interests me for some reason.

EDIT - Nate Duncan's theory was Lakers did it to show LeBron "Hey, we tried!" Not sure how that applies to Chris Paul's name getting tossed into the news.

412. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: February 06, 2023 at 09:00 AM (#6115884)

Title Odd Shifts Per Pinnacle Sports from 2/2 until now:

Mavericks on 2/2 +3110; now +1800
Nets on 2/2 +777; now +1850

413. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: February 06, 2023 at 09:03 AM (#6115885)

Warriors coach Steve Kerr stressed Sunday that the news could have been far worse.

"I didn't know those ligaments existed,'' Kerr said. "I think the main thing is he's going to be out for a little bit. We're going to reevaluate in a few days. And the good news is, he's going to be back. We don't exactly know when, but it's not an injury that's going to keep him out for the season. He's going to come back this season and hopefully sooner rather than later.''

Warriors putting a good spin on it, but this sounds really painful, and bad news for GSW.

I've hated this Brooklyn so-called Super Team, but I'm pulling for them now? Who doesn't like KD, Simmons is irrelevant, and the other rotation players are admirable as mostly self-made guys.

414. TFTIO was writing C programs in the '90s Posted: February 06, 2023 at 09:43 AM (#6115889)

Warriors putting a good spin on it, but this sounds really painful, and bad news for GSW.

The Dunc'd on folks are pretty down on them, considering.

415. PJ Martinez Posted: February 06, 2023 at 09:44 AM (#6115890)

I also think Jacque Vaughn has handled things well. (Still not going to pull for them, though.)

416. jmurph Posted: February 06, 2023 at 09:47 AM (#6115891)

Warriors putting a good spin on it, but this sounds really painful, and bad news for GSW.

I realize someone technically has to win the title this year but I'm currently at a place where I can think of lots of reasons why every possible contender won't win.

417. jmurph Posted: February 06, 2023 at 09:50 AM (#6115892)

I also think Jacque Vaughn has handled things well. (Still not going to pull for them, though.)

Yeah I like KD and Vaughn seems good, but it's also pretty easy to root against their entire approach over the past few years.

418. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: February 06, 2023 at 11:23 AM (#6115903)

I realize someone technically has to win the title this year but I'm currently at a place where I can think of lots of reasons why every possible contender won't win.

Same, and it's my instinctive reaction to every "contender." Like, before I think, "oh, the Warriors have experience and a great lineup," I think, "no way, too many rounds on the road and too snakebit."

EDIT - Nate Duncan's theory was Lakers did it to show LeBron "Hey, we tried!" Not sure how that applies to Chris Paul's name getting tossed into the news.

This doesn't make sense IMO, because you tell LeBron before you make the offer. Haynes has to be Kyrie's camp.

419. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 06, 2023 at 01:06 PM (#6115918)

I realize someone technically has to win the title this year but I'm currently at a place where I can think of lots of reasons why every possible contender won't win.

Other than health I have no reason why Boston can't win the title. And I am not a Celtic fan.

420. TFTIO was writing C programs in the '90s Posted: February 06, 2023 at 01:08 PM (#6115919)

Other than health I have no reason why Boston can't win the title. And I am not a Celtic fan.

This feels right to me, too. They are well coached, execute well, don't do a lot of crackbrained nonsense. They're exploitable, I guess, but everyone's exploitable?

421. jmurph Posted: February 06, 2023 at 01:24 PM (#6115923)

Celtics: yeah I think they're favorites to come out of the East for a reason, but I've honestly watched like 90% of their minutes this year and I think they're a lot closer to good than they are to great (as discussed in the thread last week, I think, their league-leading SRS is much lower than the leaders in most years).

The problem with watching all of your team's games is you see the highs but also see them lose to the Magic three times, the Bulls twice, need a terrible referee error to beat the Lakers, etc.

422. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: February 06, 2023 at 01:39 PM (#6115925)

Other than health I have no reason why Boston can't win the title. And I am not a Celtic fan.

They are a good, but not great team that needs to win 3 playoff series against roughly evenly matched opponents. As a team, they are built around taking a ton of 3s (42 per game, same as the 2018 Rockets!) with a bunch of guys who are trick or treat shooters.

Edit: the 2018 Rockets are actually a really good under the radar comp for the Celtics.

423. TFTIO was writing C programs in the '90s Posted: February 06, 2023 at 01:41 PM (#6115926)

I am so impressed that the Wovles managed not to read the injury report before going out and playing the Nuggets, because they're so good at playing to the level of their opponents.

424. MHS Posted: February 06, 2023 at 01:52 PM (#6115931)

Edit: the 2018 Rockets are actually a really good under the radar comp for the Celtics.

I think this Celtics team has a much higher defensive ceiling than that rockets team.

When the ball isn't moving the Celtics team's offensive is totally gummed up.

425. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: February 06, 2023 at 02:00 PM (#6115933)

Philly and Milwaukee have been rolling lately (both 13-4 since January 1), but I'd still easily take Boston over either. Giannis is the Galactus of the NBA, but I'm skeptical of what Middleton will be able to provide. Harden has settled in as an ideal partner with Embiid, but he still has a bad taste from past playoffs. Boston is younger, deeper, and more versatile than either team, and I think they are hungrier as well.

426. spivey Posted: February 06, 2023 at 02:10 PM (#6115934)

I think Milwaukee is right there with Boston, if they're healthy. Middleton is averaging 15/4/3.5, 60% TS in 17.5 minutes a game since he's come back, and they're 7-0 in those games (despite Portis missing most of them).

I think Milwaukee and Boston are clearly the top teams. But the East is tougher top-to-bottom than the West, so I don't think you can pick either of them over the field. But that doesn't mean I don't believe they're both bonafide title level teams, when healthy.

427. i don't vibrate on the frequency of the 57i66135 Posted: February 06, 2023 at 02:26 PM (#6115936)

dallas is now the only team that has multiple starters in this year's all-star game.

428. jmurph Posted: February 06, 2023 at 02:28 PM (#6115937)

But the East is tougher top-to-bottom than the West

A good point. Miami, for example, is by any measure a mediocre (or worse) team: 19th in SRS, 19th in NTG, bottom 5 offense in the league (though a top 5 defense). But one of Boston, Philadelphia, or Milwaukee will likely have to play them in the first round, and it's not exactly impossible to imagine Miami knocking off any of them even if they'd be major underdogs.

Cleveland continues to have great numbers, and I barely even think about them as contenders which obviously isn't fair. They're 2nd in the fancy stats behind Boston.

429. spivey Posted: February 06, 2023 at 02:42 PM (#6115940)

I normally am a stats guy, but I think the history of the NBA shows that playoff experience generally matters. I also think their roster is a bit tricky. They'll probably be playing 2-3 non-shooters together most of the game. Okoro could legitimately get Tony Allen/Roberson level treatment. I think Cleveland will be tough to beat, but I think they're a year and a small forward away from truly being able to win it all.

430. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: February 06, 2023 at 02:48 PM (#6115942)

I hope Miami finishes 6th just so whoever finishes 1/2 gets some sort of reward for doing so. Definitely seem like a tougher opponent than Knicks/Hawks/whoever else.

8th seed Warriors loom in the West, of course.

431. jmurph Posted: February 06, 2023 at 03:15 PM (#6115946)

I think Cleveland will be tough to beat, but I think they're a year and a small forward away from truly being able to win it all.

Oh I agree I think the likely scenario is 1st round exit or maybe 2nd. But they do have a guy in Mitchell who can go wild and get 40+ on any given night and they currently have the best DRtg in the league.

432. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: February 06, 2023 at 03:23 PM (#6115947)

Cleveland is my dark horse team. They have great matchups (IMO at least) against Philadelphia, Boston and Milwaukee. None of those teams really play the two bigs off the court.

I think they would seriously struggle with most of the likely teams coming out of the West.

I agree that they are a year away. I think they should just start Dean Wade.

433. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: February 06, 2023 at 03:39 PM (#6115952)

Some smoke that Jaylen Brown is out tonight with "non-covid illness" that is actually a bad case of trade talks with Brooklyn.

434. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: February 06, 2023 at 03:48 PM (#6115954)

Some smoke that Jaylen Brown is out tonight with "non-covid illness" that is actually a bad case of trade talks with Brooklyn.

Not adding anything here but feel the need to say "woah if true".

435. Fourth True Outcome Posted: February 06, 2023 at 04:04 PM (#6115957)

I'm not saying that trade won't happen, but I went down a twitter rabbit hole looking for sources and I haven't seen anyone but Stephan A Smith pushing the idea that this is in play, so I dunno that it's a fait accompli just yet.

Edit: to think out loud a bit, this seems more likely to me to be a Nets leak designed to set the market for a possible KD trade than it is precursor info for a done deal. We'll see, but Boston's FO has tended to be pretty leak-proof and I'm not sure I'd trust the grist Brooklyn is feeding the rumor mill to be completely accurate.

436. DCA Posted: February 06, 2023 at 04:15 PM (#6115960)

Brown + Galinari is enough salary to match.

437. jmurph Posted: February 06, 2023 at 04:17 PM (#6115961)

League-shattering report: Korkmaz is demanding a trade.

In the future, we'll think about the league before Korkmaz demanded a trade, and the league after Korkmaz demanded a trade. A line, a new era, two different worlds.

438. jmurph Posted: February 06, 2023 at 04:21 PM (#6115962)

It's very difficult for me to imagine the Celtics making a move like that in-season, if at all. I also can't imagine the Nets trading Durant in-season when fewer teams are in play.

439. i don't vibrate on the frequency of the 57i66135 Posted: February 06, 2023 at 04:23 PM (#6115963)

League-shattering report: Korkmaz is demanding a trade.

In the future, we'll think about the league before Korkmaz demanded a trade, and the league after Korkmaz demanded a trade. A line, a new era, two different worlds.

'demand' /= 'request'

440. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: February 06, 2023 at 04:29 PM (#6115965)

First there was "the decision". Next came the one time cap spike.

Now we have the Un-Korking.

441. PJ Martinez Posted: February 06, 2023 at 04:44 PM (#6115970)

Stein:

Among the possibilities for expanding the Kyrie Irving-to-Dallas trade before this evening's scheduled trade call: League sources say that Brooklyn has explored the feasibility of packaging Spencer Dinwiddie and draft capital to Toronto in an attempt to acquire Fred VanVleet.

442. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: February 06, 2023 at 05:01 PM (#6115972)

Is FVV even better than Dinwiddie?

443. spivey Posted: February 06, 2023 at 05:05 PM (#6115974)

Is FVV even better than Dinwiddie?

Aren't you a +/- guy? FVV is a perennial all-star level player in advanced stats (not this year though, so you if you do trust those like I do you have to ask if it's a blip or if he's declining early).

444. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: February 06, 2023 at 05:12 PM (#6115975)

Player ranks in EPM, as always, for what it's worth:

#6 Durant
#20 Kyrie
#36 Fred VanVleet
#43 Jaylen Brown
#41 Anunoby
#44 Siakam
#85 Finney-Smith
#116 Dinwiddie

445. Athletic Supporter's restaurant with Ted Danson Posted: February 06, 2023 at 05:59 PM (#6115983)

It is really hard to see what the Celtics would trade the Nets Jaylen Brown for other than KD. I guess that might be what's going on but that also seems very unlikely.

446. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: February 06, 2023 at 06:07 PM (#6115984)

Player ranks in EPM, as always, for what it's worth:

#6 Durant
#20 Kyrie
#36 Fred VanVleet
#43 Jaylen Brown
#41 Anunoby
#44 Siakam
#85 Finney-Smith
#116 Dinwiddie

I'll add:
#38 DeRozan
#51 Zach LaVine
#58 Alex Caruso

Just in case the Bulls decided to do something.

447. aberg Posted: February 07, 2023 at 08:33 AM (#6116013)

I think Cleveland will be tough to beat, but I think they're a year and a small forward away from truly being able to win it all.

Easy solution here: NBA Champion Kevin Love at SF. The reincarnation of Rubio-Love on the Cleveland bench in 2023 keeps me going.

448. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: February 07, 2023 at 08:48 AM (#6116015)

Fun article on The Athletic about the nine father-son combos that LeBron has played against. He's scored the most points against Kenyon Martin and KJ Martin (21 games), and ninth most against Glen Rice and Glen Rice Jr.

Trivia time, can BTF name the other 7 father son combos. Here's a clue, four of the seven combos have the same name.

1. Kenyon/KJ Martin
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9. Glen Rice/g. Rice Jr.

449. DCA Posted: February 07, 2023 at 09:04 AM (#6116017)

Payton?
Hardaway?
Trent?

Pippen doesn't count because Jr played *with* LeBron, right?

450. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: February 07, 2023 at 09:39 AM (#6116018)

Payton and Trent are up there.

Tim Hardaway retired a year early, but Hardaway Jr. has played with a guy who's #3 on the list. There are three rookies this year that LeBron played against their fathers.

1. Kenyon/KJ Martin - 21 games
2. Payton/Payton II - 16 games
3.
4.
5.
6. Gary Trent/Trent Jr. - 8 games
7.
8.
9. Glen Rice/g. Rice Jr. (2 games)

451. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: February 07, 2023 at 09:43 AM (#6116019)

Big Dog and Glenn Robinson Jr. (Little Dog?)

452. It's Spelled With a CFBF, But Not Where You Think Posted: February 07, 2023 at 09:52 AM (#6116020)

"Spencer Dinwiddie" is such a weird name for an NBA player. "Spencer Dinwiddie" gets beat up at his accounting firm.

453. chisoxcollector Posted: February 07, 2023 at 10:15 AM (#6116023)

Big Dog and Glenn Robinson Jr. (Little Dog?)

For a second I thought this meant Lebron somehow played against three generations of Dogs, as Glenn Robinson III is currently active. But it turns out that the original Big Dog was the Jr.

454. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: February 07, 2023 at 10:37 AM (#6116025)

Yep, the Robinsons.

1. Kenyon/KJ Martin - 21 games
2. Payton/Payton II - 16 games
3.
4. Glenn Robinson / G. Robinson III (9 games)
5.
6. Gary Trent/Trent Jr. - 8 games
7.
8.
9. Glen Rice/g. Rice Jr. (2 games)

I

455. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: February 07, 2023 at 11:31 AM (#6116028)

A few guesses:
Rick & Jalen Brunson
Adrian & AJ Griffin
Jabari Smith & Jabari Smith Jr

456. sardonic Posted: February 07, 2023 at 11:32 AM (#6116029)

No way it's the Currys or Thompsons since there'd be way more games played. It has struck me in recent years that the Warriors have a lot of children of NBA players, as GR and GP IIIs both came through as well.

457. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: February 07, 2023 at 11:45 AM (#6116030)

Yep, that's three more.

The last one, Jabari Walker is a rookie who has played 286 minutes for Portland this year, and is the son of Samaki Walker.

1. Kenyon/KJ Martin - 21 games
2. Payton/Payton II - 16 games
3. Rick/Jalen Brunson (15 games)
4. Glenn Robinson / G. Robinson III (9 games)
5. Adrian/AJ Griffin (8 games)
6. Gary Trent/Trent Jr. - 8 games
7. Samaki Walker, Jabari Walker (6 games)
8. Jabari Smith, Jabari Smith Jr. (4 games)
9. Glen Rice/g. Rice Jr. (2 games)

458. deleuze68 Posted: February 07, 2023 at 12:07 PM (#6116032)

I wonder how Vince compares as he has played against the Sobonis's, Hardaway's, Curry's and (Jaren) Jackson's

459. If on a winter's night a father of a newborn baby Posted: February 07, 2023 at 12:30 PM (#6116034)

Surprised the Jarens Jackson didn't make the list.

460. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: February 07, 2023 at 01:31 PM (#6116040)

461. PJ Martinez Posted: February 07, 2023 at 05:11 PM (#6116059)

Boston leads the NBA in Net Rtg with a mark of +6.8

The Knicks have a Net Rtg of +7.3 in the 1,909 possessions when RJ Barrett has been off the court

462. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: February 07, 2023 at 05:12 PM (#6116060)

Does that make not-RJ the league MVP?

463. deleuze68 Posted: February 07, 2023 at 05:26 PM (#6116062)

After a bit more browsing boxscores it appears Vince Carter has faced 10 father/son combos (11 if you count the Curry's separately)

The 5 he shares with Lebron

1. Payton/Payton II
2. Rick/Jalen Brunson
3. Glenn Robinson / G. Robinson III
4. Gary Trent/Trent Jr.
5. Glen Rice/g. Rice Jr.

And then 5 others

6. Tim Hardaway/Hardaway Jr.
7. Arvydas/Domantas Sabonis
8. Dell/Steph and Seth Curry
9. Jaren Jackson/Jackson Jr.
10. Patrick Ewing/Ewing Jr. (1 of Ewing Jr's 19 career minutes coming in this game https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201104080NOH.html)

464. Fourth True Outcome Posted: February 07, 2023 at 08:05 PM (#6116067)

Phoenix Suns new owner Mat Ishbia intends to bring on Hall of Famer Isiah Thomas to have a prominent role in the front office, league sources tell @NBAonTNT, @BleacherReport
.

Suns fans truly can't catch a break, huh?

465. asinwreck Posted: February 07, 2023 at 09:06 PM (#6116070)

I feel for James Dolan.

466. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: February 07, 2023 at 09:18 PM (#6116071)

Look, Isiah was the most qualified candidate for the role of VP of Sexual Harassment.

467. asinwreck Posted: February 07, 2023 at 09:52 PM (#6116072)

Cam Thomas scored 40. Again.

468. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: February 07, 2023 at 10:11 PM (#6116074)

Is this CammThomas for real? Three straight 40+ games. The Suns conceded a couple two-pointers at the end, but still, it’s not everyone who can put up 125 in three games.

469. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: February 07, 2023 at 11:10 PM (#6116078)

Wilt once scored 126 points in two games, then scored 100 the game after.

470. i don't vibrate on the frequency of the 57i66135 Posted: February 08, 2023 at 03:28 AM (#6116079)

tonight's loss means that the lakers are 2 games out of the playoff play in game (aka 10th seed). they have the 13th best record in the western conference. they do not own their own first round pick.

congrats, lebron.

#bbtfnbaplayoffthreadlore

471. jmurph Posted: February 08, 2023 at 08:16 AM (#6116084)

We've all gotten used to him, but it's pretty incredible to step back and think about what he's accomplished.

So which younger guys have a chance to catch him? The most likely answer is no one, of course. Like take Tatum, came into the league young, is a big time scorer: through their first 5 full seasons (so up until this season for Tatum), LeBron was 3,000 points ahead of him. Doncic was the first that came to mind to check given his scoring abilities, he was about 1,500 behind through their first four, but clearly isn't anywhere near LeBron's league physically.

Other ideas?

472. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: February 08, 2023 at 08:53 AM (#6116087)

Congrats, LeBron. Now on to bigger things like if my favorite team is going to be able to add a protected second round pick in 2028 by helping some other team lower its luxury tax bill.

I can't really see it being broken at this point. Will anyone ever play that many regular season games again? I guess we never know what the future holds in terms of medical advancements or complete changes to the way the game is played.

473. spivey Posted: February 08, 2023 at 08:56 AM (#6116088)

There's a world in which Doncic could do it. Doncic is a great all around player, but I think he looks to score first a bit more than LeBron did for a lot of his career. LeBron also "only" averaged around 25-27 for much of his prime. The increased scoring environment and Doncic maybe taking up more usage could help too.

474. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: February 08, 2023 at 10:04 AM (#6116090)

There are some possibilities working in favor, like increasing offense and reliane on the 3-point shot. There's also the possibility of increased load management and/or seasons getting shorter, which would obviously be a big blow towards career records. But if a Doncic/Harden type player came in that was good-to-excellent on 3-point shooting and played in 70-80 games for ~18 years, they could get close. Definitely a very long shot, but not inconceivable.

475. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: February 08, 2023 at 10:11 AM (#6116091)

We've all gotten used to him, but it's pretty incredible to step back and think about what he's accomplished.

Absolutely. And pretty much all of us here have been able to see him his entire career. Just amazing stuff. I know it's been said before, but for him to have as much hype as he did and then he still *exceeded* those expectations...I don't think we'll see anything quite like that again.

There are some possibilities working in favor, like increasing offense and reliane on the 3-point shot. There's also the possibility of increased load management and/or seasons getting shorter, which would obviously be a big blow towards career records. But if a Doncic/Harden type player came in that was good-to-excellent on 3-point shooting and played in 70-80 games for ~18 years, they could get close. Definitely a very long shot, but not inconceivable.

Load management is the new hindrance for the next guy. But I picture someone like a healthier Curry as the most likely type. Luka is probably the most likely that's in the game today, but odds are it won't be him. Maybe not playing as many playoff games as LeBron could help him.

Phoenix Suns new owner Mat Ishbia intends to bring on Hall of Famer Isiah Thomas to have a prominent role in the front office, league sources tell @NBAonTNT, @BleacherReport

FWIW, the Suns pretty adamantly denied this on the record. And Chris Haynes was the only one to report this. So...

476. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: February 08, 2023 at 10:14 AM (#6116092)

Because no one else said it:

After his first practice with the Dallas Mavericks, All-Star guard Kyrie Irving said he felt "really wanted" by his new team, a stark contrast to feeling "very disrespected" at times during his turbulent 3½-season tenure with the Brooklyn Nets.

"I just know I want to be places where I'm celebrated and not just tolerated or just kind of dealt with in a way that doesn't make me feel respected," Irving said after Tuesday's practice at USC's Galen Hall. "There were times throughout this process when I was in Brooklyn where I felt very disrespected and my talent -- I work extremely hard at what I do. No one ever talks about my work ethic, though. Everyone talks about what I'm doing off the floor, so I just wanted to change that narrative, write my own story and just continue preparing in the gym, and now that I'm in Dallas, just focus on what I control."

Least self-aware athlete I can remember.

477. spivey Posted: February 08, 2023 at 10:16 AM (#6116093)

Haynes also had a lot of egg on his face with his report that Poole was "asking for it" with his cockiness about getting a contract after the Draymond punch.

478. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: February 08, 2023 at 10:32 AM (#6116094)

LeBron's at 38,390 points in 53,742 minutes, so 0.714 points per minute.

This season, Luka's scoring 0.915 points per minute. And has 8,531 points in 10,642 minutes for his career 0.802 points per minute

If Luka continues to score 0.9 points per minute, he'd get to 40,000 points in 34,966 more minutes, which at this rate is about 16 more seasons.

I guess it's possible. Probably won't be Luka but can someone score 0.9 points per minute for that long of a time? Feels like that's what it will take because I don't think someone will catch LeBron in minutes. It's probably possible if the offensive explosion continues.

479. NJ in NJ Posted: February 08, 2023 at 12:06 PM (#6116098)

With (at least) 2.5 seasons left go on his contract, LeBron is going to end up somewhere around 42,000 points. No one is going to reach that. In Luka's healthiest year he played 72 games. In his highest scoring year he's averaging 33 points a game. Hypothetical Luka would need to duplicate the combination of the healthiest and scoring-est he's ever been for 18 years to reach LeBron. I do not think we are properly appreciating how ridiculous this record will be.

480. Booey Posted: February 08, 2023 at 12:48 PM (#6116103)

I agree with NJ. This record will never be broken. Even ignoring the fact that modern load management makes it damn near impossible (stars used to play 80 games a season; now they play 60-70. Over 20 years, that's 2-4 full seasons worth of points they're losing), it's unrealistic to predict that anyone else can still be averaging 30 ppg in their 20th season, which is what it took LeBron to get here. He's a freak of nature. This is a Nolan Ryan/strikeouts or Rickey Henderson/stolen bases type of record.

481. Gaelan Posted: February 08, 2023 at 02:08 PM (#6116107)

Is it just me or did the Cavaliers really blow up by including Markannen in the Mitchell trade. I get that no one knew that Markannen was a top 20 or 30 player in the NBA, but the price for Mitchell is kind of crazy even without Markannen. Three unprotected first round picks, a lottery pick, a scorer off the bench, and then Markannen on top of that.

Add Markannen to the Cavaliers and they are the best team in the NBA, aren't they? Or is this all a fluke? His true shooting percentage is 12th in the league, and most of the guys ahead of him are much lower usage players. Jokic, Durant, Curry are the only players with higher usage and higher true shooting.

16.5 million, two more years after this, how many better contracts are there in the league?

482. Fourth True Outcome Posted: February 08, 2023 at 03:54 PM (#6116115)

I think Markannen is the kind of player that seems obviously primed to break out in hindsight but was indistinguishable from the rest of the underachieving lottery picks before the trade. It's now clear that he was a huge wing that had been miscast as a big in Chicago, but I don't think it's totally fair to ding Cleveland for not realizing it at the time. There is a thin line between a guy like Markannen that has been misused and could break out and a tweener that doesn't shoot well enough to play the wing but isn't strong enough to be a big. Tip your cap to Utah for scouting and taking a flyer on an undervalued player, but it's less clear to me that Cleveland made a big mistake there.

483. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: February 08, 2023 at 03:58 PM (#6116117)

Or is this all a fluke?

He currently has an ORtg of 129 - higher than anything Jordan, Durant, Curry, Doncic, Lebron, or Harden have done (although Jokic has put up a 130 and is currently at 136). Markannen may have finally developed a bit, but I'm going to guess he falls back a bit as the year goes on.

484. asinwreck Posted: February 08, 2023 at 04:37 PM (#6116122)

I thought D'Angelo Russell to the Nets would be funny. This is much more amusing.

Shams Charania @ShamsCharania
The Lakers, Jazz and Timberwolves are in discussions on a three-team deal that would send D’Angelo Russell to the Lakers, Russell Westbrook and draft compensation such as a first-round pick to Utah and Mike Conley Jr. to Minnesota, sources tell me and @Tjonesonthenba.

485. TFTIO was writing C programs in the '90s Posted: February 08, 2023 at 04:48 PM (#6116126)

I’m in.

486. Gaelan Posted: February 08, 2023 at 04:51 PM (#6116127)

I think Markannen is the kind of player that seems obviously primed to break out in hindsight but was indistinguishable from the rest of the underachieving lottery picks before the trade. It's now clear that he was a huge wing that had been miscast as a big in Chicago, but I don't think it's totally fair to ding Cleveland for not realizing it at the time. There is a thin line between a guy like Markannen that has been misused and could break out and a tweener that doesn't shoot well enough to play the wing but isn't strong enough to be a big. Tip your cap to Utah for scouting and taking a flyer on an undervalued player, but it's less clear to me that Cleveland made a big mistake there.

I get all this, but my impression was that Markkanen was a throw-in to make the salaries work. Maybe Utah insisted on him, but they were already getting four first round picks, if Cleveland wanted to include Lavert instead is Utah really going to walk away?

So while no one knew this was coming, and maybe 42% 3 pt shooting doesn't last, but they had the guy they need and they gave him away for free. This group is primed to stay together for a while but there isn't a likely path to getting better.

That said, the real answer is that this Markkanen never happens in Cleveland, mostly because of scheme and usage.

487. If on a winter's night a father of a newborn baby Posted: February 08, 2023 at 05:10 PM (#6116128)

It's now clear that he was a huge wing that had been miscast as a big in Chicago, but I don't think it's totally fair to ding Cleveland for not realizing it at the time.

In Cleveland, Markkanen started games at the 3, next to both Mobley and Allen, and fully 1/3 of his minutes were in lineups with both bigs. Seems like they did realize he could play in that sort of role, they just didn't have as favorable a roster context for him to shine in that role. Maybe if Mobley and Allen both had dangerous jumpshots, the paint would have been open enough to showcase Markkanen's ability to drive to the rim.

did the Cavaliers really blow up by including Markannen in the Mitchell trade

Plausible, sure, but I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. It would be very in-character for Ainge to have insisted on Markkanen; he likes the players he likes, with little regard for consensus, and has a pretty good eye for talent that might pop in a different context. I have far too little trust in NBA reporting about trade offers that don't make it all the way to the league office to speculate what Cleveland was bidding against; all I know is they outbid the field.

488. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: February 08, 2023 at 05:15 PM (#6116130)

I don't think anyone had any idea Markannen was about to breakout before his summer with Finland, and IIRC that was after the trade. Hardy apparently saw how well he played and how his national team coach used him and felt it could carry over to the NBA. I believe Lauri has also credited last year with the Cavs playing 3 for improving his quickness. Probably worth noting Jazz only went back to Cavs when Knicks wouldn't up their offer, so I really don't think Ainge had any expectation Markannen was gonna break out.

489. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: February 08, 2023 at 06:26 PM (#6116135)

Chris Haynes @ChrisBHaynes ·3h

New Suns owner Mat Ishbia said at introductory news conference that there’s no role for Isiah “at this time” … referring to Isiah Thomas. But Ishbia, asked twice to clarify, did not close door on Hall of Famer eventually joining staff: “There’s a role for anyone in the future.”

Embarrassing.

490. KronicFatigue Posted: February 08, 2023 at 06:36 PM (#6116137)

I agree with NJ. This record will never be broken. Even ignoring the fact that modern load management makes it damn near impossible (stars used to play 80 games a season; now they play 60-70. Over 20 years, that's 2-4 full seasons worth of points they're losing), it's unrealistic to predict that anyone else can still be averaging 30 ppg in their 20th season, which is what it took LeBron to get here. He's a freak of nature. This is a Nolan Ryan/strikeouts or Rickey Henderson/stolen bases type of record.

I'm convinced the regular season will be less than 82 games in the not too distant future. There's some version of load management, mid season tournament, anti tanking, etc that's going to make the owners ok with condensing the season. It feels like going to an NBA game is more like the NFL than MLB in terms of "less is more".

491. TFTIO was writing C programs in the '90s Posted: February 08, 2023 at 08:17 PM (#6116140)

LAL: Vanderbilt, Beasley, Russell
UTA: Westbrook, LAL FRP
MIN: Conley, some seconds

What are the hell

492. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: February 08, 2023 at 08:20 PM (#6116142)

I think, think but not sure yet, I like this trade for all 3 teams, based on what they want. I think I saw Jazz might buy out Russ.

DLo isn't perfect for the Lakers, but fits better than Russ and Vanderbilt and Beasley will help. When healthy, Conley is a better fit for the Wolfs.

493. asinwreck Posted: February 08, 2023 at 08:20 PM (#6116143)

Can Nick Young be reached for comment?

494. TFTIO was writing C programs in the '90s Posted: February 08, 2023 at 08:21 PM (#6116144)

There's some more stuff moving around, allegedly, probably Jalen Nowell from MIN and Pat Bev back? I don't know. It's weird.

495. JJ1986 Posted: February 08, 2023 at 08:21 PM (#6116145)

N:OW

496. jmurph Posted: February 08, 2023 at 08:33 PM (#6116146)

I think, think but not sure yet, I like this trade for all 3 teams, based on what they want.

Agree, makes sense all the way around- I guess Lakers fans might think that's overpaying a bit with the 1st, I don't know, but those are useful players.

Just saw a report that the pick going to Utah is 2027, top 4 protected.

497. jmurph Posted: February 08, 2023 at 08:37 PM (#6116147)

Breaking your teammate's face when you're already missing three starters is not ideal, Jayson!

498. tshipman (The Viscount of Variance)

Posted: February 08, 2023 at 08:42 PM (#6116148)

This is a weird trade.

I think that Russell is kind of the worst guy the Lakers are getting back, and he doesn't fit with LeBron and AD at all.

Vanderbilt and Beasley are fantastic gets, though.

I think while the value is about right, the strategy is bad, and you end up in the worst spot, which is throwing in something to chase a dream, but not committing enough to have a real shot.

499. yo la tengo (the poor man's Ron Darling) Posted: February 08, 2023 at 08:42 PM (#6116149)

Seems like a relatively low cost for Lakers (at least in the short term here) to land those three players

500. Russlan is not Russian Posted: February 08, 2023 at 08:52 PM (#6116150)

It is probably too little too late for the Lakers this year, but I am happy that I don't ever have to watch Westbrook play. He was largely professional, stayed in shape, played hard, and he has had a career of which he can be very proud. I have never disliked watching another player play for a team I was rooting for as much as I disliked watching him play. It is not even close.

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